TOAW III is now on sale at Matrix Games!

[JAMiAM]

Well...what are you waiting for? ;)

[nemo]

:hurray::broccoli::coolban::banana:

[Bloodstar]

Well...what are you waiting for? ;)

Doh damn you... :laugh:

My credit card expired and I withdraw 1000 euros that I had as deposit to have this credit card... Anyway I will have to get new credit card anyway as I plan to buy: Dominion 3 by Shrapnel Games, TOAW 3 from Matrix, Distant Guns! by SES and bunch of books on Amazon.com... phew :clown:


Mario

[Telumar]

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

They did it!!!!!!

[Secadegas]

60% DL concluded...:devious:

[Secadegas]

Got it...

What a perfect D Day...

[Veers]

I have bought that great improvement of our beloved game that is TOAW III and supported that fine company that is called Matrix Games.

I salute your squashing of bugs, the doubling of depth (events), and the improvement of the terrible AI. :salute:

I spur you on to more and greater accomplishments in the development of our beloved game, TALLYHO! :vsign:

And I have 66% done!! :toast:

[liuzg150181]

Just downloaded and played the game few hours ago,all i can say right now is that it is nothing short of greatness.:)

[Tim McBride]

Dam, I'm stuck out at Donna Ana Base Camp until next week.........At least with the internet I can live through all of yours experiances.

[Boonierat]

:broccoli:




Man, that's the coolest smiley ever! :laugh:
Oh and yeah, pip pip hurray for TOAW III :clown:

[liuzg150181]

Dam, I'm stuck out at Donna Ana Base Camp until next week.........At least with the internet I can live through all of yours experiances.
Hey!Arent you one of the scenario designers?:shock:
Kudos to your effort and dedication,really loving it~~~:yummy:

[Mompariglia]

great! I might wait for the boxed version :lier:

[viridomaros]

i can't buy on the web since i don't have any credit card is there any european player who would accept to buy it for me?
i'd send the money by post first then you'll buy the game for me and ship it back if it's ok for you

[L`zard]

Frankly,

'the cd version'...............

Gotta have a 'hard copy', my machine is gonna go wonky soon, so I trust nothing about virtual copies of any game. Too many folders, too many game installs, Too much machine talking to 'bill'.

If I crash and 'fail to burn correctly', I'd have too much fear.

[Marcks]

i can't buy on the web since i don't have any credit card is there any european player who would accept to buy it for me?
i'd send the money by post first then you'll buy the game for me and ship it back if it's ok for you

You don't need a credit card for purchases at Matrix Games. It only one of the options. For europe you can also pay via:

European Bank Transfer
Giro
Money Order
PayPal

Also check the Store FAQs regarding this:

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/sat5/ec_main.entry11?sp=10340&pn=1#q2

[viridomaros]

trying to make an order using european bank transfer, can anyone tell me what are processing fee? i'm charged +11,58€ for this

[Warship NWS]

Hi guys, we have OPAW III listed on our online store, CD Rom Edition, $39.99. Estimated shipping date, June 13th.

http://www.nws-online.net .. right on the front page! ;)

Thanks! :)

[Polynike]

downloading as we post omg omg omg omg omg :laugh:

[Polynike]

BTW to my opponents, pc problems sorted with a new gaming machine AND toawIII on its way...lets get it on again :nuts:

[Levelworm]

Hi guys, we have OPAW III listed on our online store, CD Rom Edition, $39.99. Estimated shipping date, June 13th.

http://www.nws-online.net .. right on the front page! ;)

Thanks! :)
May I ask what are included in the cd-rom version?

[viridomaros]

BTW to my opponents, pc problems sorted with a new gaming machine AND toawIII on its way...lets get it on again :nuts:

that's good news

[jeff norton]

Is Matrix down??? I keep getting

Http://www.matrixgames.com/servicemsg.asp

and the page seems to be in a service loop. Guess the strain of TOAW's release was too much to bear...

[rasmus]

trying to make an order using european bank transfer, can anyone tell me what are processing fee? i'm charged +11,58€ for this
I think the processing fee varies greatly from bank to bank. I paid 45 euro extra when I paid my 20 euro swedish huntinglicense last year. International money transfers are expensive. My advice would be to find a local friend with a credit card and have him or her make the payment, and then pay them directly in cash.

[CPangracs]

Why would anyone expect me to pay $39.99 for what is, essentially, a patch? Granted, I don't play the game that much as it is because of some basic flaws in the game engine itself, but I keep tabs on these things as part of my job.

Seriously, there is really nothing new as far as gameplay, only stuff that SHOULD have been fixed over the last couple years by TalonSoft, but hasn't. Oh wait, maybe I'm paying for all of those maps and scenarios done over that same time frame! Nope, I can get those for free. Heck, there is even mention of over 150 maps and such made by the community as a SELLING point! Talk about cajones! :rolleyes:

Seriously, would someone please tell me what I get for $39.99 that I don't already have with CoW? Where is the added or extended gameplay beyond what I can do with CoW? Where is the NEW content? I hope people look beyond the hype and see what they are getting for their money before they place an order.

Now, that's not to say people didn't work hard to bring this patch, but $40 for a patch? If anything, MAYBE $9.99, but FORTY DOLLARS?! Sorry, but that's just not a feasible price point for most people once they realize how minimal the new stuff really is. Matrix just bought the rights to the game a short while back, and have relied on free work from a great many people to bring out this patch. I would think at least a few in the TOAW community would realize this and be a bit peeved about it. Again, I know some of the guys who did work on this thing, and they do great stuff, (Tim and James, I applaud you), but I think, if you aren't getting compensation for this, you should be a bit upset. And, if you ARE, then I hope it's more than a few percent. ;)

In addition, why pay an extra $10 for the hardcopy version? You don't actually GET anything at all - documentation is on the CD! If any of you MUST have the latest and greatest, then get the download and burn it to a CD.

If any of you are okay with paying for patches that should be free, well, more power to you...

I truly wish this game a lot of luck, but I needed to throw in a dose of reality, because the CoW game I have can be relevant and playable for many, many years to come, especially with an awesome support community. I just think such a great game community deserves more for their money.

Peace,

Curt

[ralphtrickey]

Why would anyone expect me to pay $39.99 for what is, essentially, a patch? Granted, I don't play the game that much as it is because of some basic flaws in the game engine itself, but I keep tabs on these things as part of my job.

Once we get organized for the next release, please post what you feel the basic flaws are.

The reality is that this release is being done by Matrix Games, not by TalonSoft. That means that making it a patch is totally impractical. I'll work for very little, but not for nothing :-) The other option was to rerelease a Matrix Edition several months ago with minimal patches at the same price point. I think this was the right option.

I'll let you decide if it's worth the $40. It sounds like it isn't to you. I believe that it is, and I'm hoping that other people will feel that it is. If nothing else, it means that picking up a copy of COW should be a lot cheaper now.

Thanks,
Ralph Trickey
Programmer, TOAW III

[viridomaros]

I think the processing fee varies greatly from bank to bank. I paid 45 euro extra when I paid my 20 euro swedish huntinglicense last year. International money transfers are expensive. My advice would be to find a local friend with a credit card and have him or her make the payment, and then pay them directly in cash.

yes those banks make enough profits like that, i don't mind the price for the product but increase price just because of the way i pay really suck.

[CPangracs]

Once we get organized for the next release, please post what you feel the basic flaws are.

The reality is that this release is being done by Matrix Games, not by TalonSoft. That means that making it a patch is totally impractical. I'll work for very little, but not for nothing :-) The other option was to rerelease a Matrix Edition several months ago with minimal patches at the same price point. I think this was the right option.

I'll let you decide if it's worth the $40. It sounds like it isn't to you. I believe that it is, and I'm hoping that other people will feel that it is. If nothing else, it means that picking up a copy of COW should be a lot cheaper now.

Thanks,
Ralph Trickey
Programmer, TOAW III

Ralph,

Believe me, I know about working cheap on games. I spend a full year of my life designing a game and I'm in the hole right off the bat. However, I also think that the community that supports my game(s) deserve as much new content as I can give them with each release. Unfortunately, in my cursory examination of this release and watching the postings of those who have both CoW and TOAW III, there really is nothing new in this release.

I know businesses want to be profitable, but at what price? The only thing being done here is dropping the price point of CoW and hoping that the current owners of CoW will drop another $40 on III. I don't really see the wisdom in that.

Perhaps a better strategy would have been to offer an "updated" CoW called "CoW Unleashed" or something, for $40, and a "patch" for owners of CoW for $10 or $20. If Matrix did it's job, then they should have purchased the rights to the CoW game itself, and therefore could control the sale of that item and its pricepoint.

I'm assuming that this whole thing is being done from a purely "bottom-line" perspective. Matrix doesn't WANT people to keep playing CoW - they want to have everyone switch to their product. Unfortunately, the additions just don't make sense,...at least not to me. I kind of hope that, for your benefit, I'm in the minority on this, because we need to support the independent designers as much as possible. Maybe, if I thought YOU would get the money, all of it, directly, I would pay the $40 in a second. Unfortunately, I have an idea how much your "sponsor" is going to take of the $40! ;)

But, after all is said and done, you are still an independent in the games market, so I wish you nothing but the best of sales for YOU and YOUR team. I'm hopeful that you are compensated for your work on the game to an appropriate level. I do realize how hard it is being a small-time game maker - but I also know what it's like to be a computer wargame consumer, and we have to keep them foremost in our minds when we create for them.

Regards,

Curt Pangracs

[JAMiAM]

Is Matrix down??? I keep getting

Http://www.matrixgames.com/servicemsg.asp

and the page seems to be in a service loop. Guess the strain of TOAW's release was too much to bear...
Yeah...looks like TOAW III was so popular that it crashed the site. You can still order the game though, by going directly to the Matrix Store here http://www.matrixgames.com/store.asp

Enjoy.

[Warship NWS]

May I ask what are included in the cd-rom version?

The game on the CD in a DVD case most likely. I dont think this one will have a printed manual. Thanks.

[Veers]

First, two Curt:

Yes, this is right now only a patch, so thank God for it, fixes many of the annoying problems of CoW. But the real reason I put down 45 of my precious Canadian dollars is not simply for the patch, it's for the ongoing support and improvement. With any luck our support now will mean a few/some/many of the things on our wish list will be added to make our favourite game better.

And, second: Did either Jamiam of Ralph notice my first /possible/ bug report on the forums before the site crashed crashed?:)

[ralphtrickey]

First, two Curt:

Yes, this is right now only a patch, so thank God for it, fixes many of the annoying problems of CoW. But the real reason I put down 45 of my precious Canadian dollars is not simply for the patch, it's for the ongoing support and improvement. With any luck our support now will mean a few/some/many of the things on our wish list will be added to make our favourite game better.

And did either Jamiam of Ralph notice my first /possible/ bug report on the forums before the site crashed crashed?:)
Nope, can you post it here please?

[Veers]

No display of Planned Combats/Turn Used.

I immediately went to work lookign for this feature, as it was my favourite. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it, so I devled onto these forums to ensure I hadn't dreamed it up. Discovering I hadn't seen it in a dream I then found the nice, searchable .pdf manual and found the feature I was looking for. pg. 39 states that to get this display on the 'information panel' at the the bottom, your cursor needs to be over the 'bolted' panel, which I assumed was the display panel, as it was refered to earlier in the manual. I proceeded to follow instructions, and when that did not work, I proceeded to move my cursor all over the right side of the interface, to no avail.

I then proceeded to attack, try different scenarios, and flip turns to ensure it wasn't an isolated incident. It was not.

The only thing I can think of that is unique about my situation is that I am running 1024x768 resolution, so my botled panel is small and does not contain the TOAW II logo.

[JAMiAM]

No display of Planned Combats/Turn Used.

I immediately went to work lookign for this feature, as it was my favourite. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it, so I devled onto these forums to ensure I hadn't dreamed it up. Discovering I hadn't seen it in a dream I then found the nice, searchable .pdf manual and found the feature I was looking for. pg. 39 states that to get this display on the 'information panel' at the the bottom, your cursor needs to be over the 'bolted' panel, which I assumed was the display panel, as it was refered to earlier in the manual. I proceeded to follow instructions, and when that did not work, I proceeded to move my cursor all over the right side of the interface, to no avail.

I then proceeded to attack, try different scenarios, and flip turns to ensure it wasn't an isolated incident. It was not.

The only thing I can think of that is unique about my situation is that I am running 1024x768 resolution, so my botled panel is small and does not contain the TOAW II logo.

Hi Veers,

I did notice it last night, and answered it then. The Matrix Forum is back up and you can find the answer there.

[CPangracs]

First, two Curt:

Yes, this is right now only a patch, so thank God for it, fixes many of the annoying problems of CoW. But the real reason I put down 45 of my precious Canadian dollars is not simply for the patch, it's for the ongoing support and improvement. With any luck our support now will mean a few/some/many of the things on our wish list will be added to make our favourite game better.


Veers,
While I agree that continuing support is important, why pay money right off the bat which is, essentially, a patch for something you have already paid for? YOU didn't decide to buy the rights to the game, Matrix did, and now, it seems, YOU are going to pay for that as well! The TOAW community is rather large and dedicated, and I believe there was even some support ongoing gratis by Ralph and others. So, unless I'm way off-base, all you are getting now is something a bit sooner.

Again, this is not a slam against Ralph and his crew, but if you step back and look at it objectively, what are you really getting for your money? Ralph isn't making a killing, so guess who is?

Also, is Norm Koger involved in this version? I doubt it - his name is in the press release and there are claims that he is involved, but where is he in the development forums? What has he been doing besides lending his name? I bet nothing. I may be way off the mark, but this is supposed to be a moneymaker, and it's NOT Ralph and his crew making the money. I'd love to see an interview with Norm Koger on this. Did I miss something? Is there some kind of ringing endorsement from Mr. Koger I've missed? It's entirely possible, but it must be well hidden somewhere.

As for the Matrix site crashing due to the popularity of the download, I hope that's true for Ralph's sake, but considering that it happens all the time with other download sites, I would be a bit more reserved about the claims of greatness.;)

Oh and BTW,...what happened to internet play? Only PBE-mail? What's up with that?

[ralphtrickey]

Curt,
You have some points, but there are some things that you may not be aware of.

I don't know the exact pricing, etc. but I think that an upgrade, even at the $20 level would be almost a break-even thing. By the time you pay Digital River for distribution, and someone to validate the upgrades, and send out the rebates, and pay royalties to Take 2, I'd be surprised if Matrix could make more than a couple of dollars per game if they didn't end up losing money.

The initial plans were to create a Matrix Edition, which was basically the same game, with Norm's 1.06 patch, and adding in more events, etc. You can see that the market for that would be pretty much the existing TOAW players, so giving it way doesn't make a lot of sense.

The reason that the additions don't make sense to you is because they weren't planned out. The original intent was that we were going to do a Q1 release, and move on to the next project with the same codebase. I got the code just before Christmas, with Norm's changes, and figured that I could code intil February, doing the risky changes first. I went onto SZO and pulled the buglist and wishlists out, and started coding. Since I was using a newer compiler, I noticed that some parts of the AI were broken. I fixed them, and added in some additions of my own, in addition to the bug fixes and UI improvements. If I'd know the amount of time before release, I would have probably planned other changes.

In early March, we had a discussion about what to call it. TOAW III was a bit of a stretch at the time, but nobody liked TOAW:MG either. We decided to put some more work into it, and call it TOAW III.

Matrix isn't doing bad things to me, the contract is straightforward. They hired me blind, part time, to program TOAW III. The original plan called for probably about 40-80 hours of work, so the money I was supposed to get for that was far more than fair. It spent a LOT more than 40-80 hours, but that's not their fault. I may re-negotiate for the next contract, since it's a lot more work, especially if sales of TOAW III are reasonable. :smoke:

Going forward, I really expect that TOAW III will be the baseline. Hopefully we'll do other games that are derived from the same engine, but all the features that make sense will eventually migrate into one engine. Exactly how we're going to do that, I don't know yet, but anyone that owns TOAW III should be using the latest engine, so MOST things should be worked back in in a patch. I expect to issue regular patches, probably a couple of months after each major game release that we do.:rolleyes: All the above is guesswork, and may change depending on circumstances, but that's what I want to do.

I'm really in this for the fun, I couldn't afford the hours or pay that a games programmer has to do. I hope to make a little money, but I'm not going to quit my day job yet. Maybe when sales hit 100k.:clown: To me, this was perfect, it's complete, well received, and small enough that I can do all the additions myself. That gives me some freedoms that the professional developers don't have.

[Veers]

Curt,

If I've read things correctly Matrix is going to continue to upgrade the game, adding things from our wish-list as time passes. So, right now I bought an overly expensive patch, but like I said, I didn't buy it for the patch, I bought it for the future additions to the game.

Also, Norm Koger did have something to do with the release, he gave the game his new side/rear armour penetration system. And even if he didn't, he is still the original designer of the game, it is esentially 'his', so it would only be accurate to have his name on it.

Frankly, game companies are out there to be profitable. It doesn't matter if I buy an uber-produced game like Oblivion, or a smaller production like TOAW. They make money, and I get a game that I like from it.

Or you can read Ralph's post, which is better. :)

[JAMiAM]

Veers,
Oh and BTW,...what happened to internet play? Only PBE-mail? What's up with that?
There was never any promise, nor faintest implication, of internet play being added to TOAW. Given the game mechanics of TOAW it would not be practical. You must be thinking of some other game entirely.

[ralphtrickey]

Again, this is not a slam against Ralph and his crew, but if you step back and look at it objectively, what are you really getting for your money? Ralph isn't making a killing, so guess who is?

As I stated in the other message, Matrix seems to be made up of good people, and they have been very up-front with me. I know what the projected sales were, and it's not possible for anyone to make a 'killing' off of them. Hopefully, the projections are wrong, but...

Also, is Norm Koger involved in this version? I doubt it - where is he in the development forums? What has he been doing besides lending his name? I bet nothing. I may be way off the mark, but this is supposed to be a moneymaker, and it's NOT Ralph and his crew making the money.

He actually wrote the 1.06 patch, and did the work on expanding several things like the events. The reality is that Norm's name is better known than mine, and may generate some sales.

As for the Matrix site crashing due to the popularity of the download, I hope that's true for Ralph's sake, but considering that it happens all the time with other download sites, I would be a bit more reserved about the claims of greatness.;)
Agreed, I'm pretty sure it was a coincidence. I can dream, though, can't I?

Ralph

[CPangracs]

There was never any promise, nor faintest implication, of internet play being added to TOAW. Given the game mechanics of TOAW it would not be practical. You must be thinking of some other game entirely.

You mean to say that, in this day and age, nobody wants to be able to play over the internet? I find that a bit, well, disturbing.:D

You mention the game mechanics, but I find that hard to believe - if a system can accept PBEM files and run them, then it is a simple step to accept them over TCIP and run them in a coordinated manner.

I may have been thinking about how TOAW was used here recently - Iwas told the game was networked and I was under the impression that they were linked in an online multiplayer game, but I surely may be mistaken. I was out and about that week, so I didn't get a chance to observe it. I will have to breakout my copy and reinstall it. Either way, I guess there hasn't been a great desire for it from the community, or you guys would have been working on it...;)

[CPangracs]

Curt,
You have some points, but there are some things that you may not be aware of.

I don't know the exact pricing, etc. but I think that an upgrade, even at the $20 level would be almost a break-even thing. By the time you pay Digital River for distribution, and someone to validate the upgrades, and send out the rebates, and pay royalties to Take 2, I'd be surprised if Matrix could make more than a couple of dollars per game if they didn't end up losing money.

The initial plans were to create a Matrix Edition, which was basically the same game, with Norm's 1.06 patch, and adding in more events, etc. You can see that the market for that would be pretty much the existing TOAW players, so giving it way doesn't make a lot of sense.

The reason that the additions don't make sense to you is because they weren't planned out. The original intent was that we were going to do a Q1 release, and move on to the next project with the same codebase. I got the code just before Christmas, with Norm's changes, and figured that I could code intil February, doing the risky changes first. I went onto SZO and pulled the buglist and wishlists out, and started coding. Since I was using a newer compiler, I noticed that some parts of the AI were broken. I fixed them, and added in some additions of my own, in addition to the bug fixes and UI improvements. If I'd know the amount of time before release, I would have probably planned other changes.

In early March, we had a discussion about what to call it. TOAW III was a bit of a stretch at the time, but nobody liked TOAW:MG either. We decided to put some more work into it, and call it TOAW III.

Matrix isn't doing bad things to me, the contract is straightforward. They hired me blind, part time, to program TOAW III. The original plan called for probably about 40-80 hours of work, so the money I was supposed to get for that was far more than fair. It spent a LOT more than 40-80 hours, but that's not their fault. I may re-negotiate for the next contract, since it's a lot more work, especially if sales of TOAW III are reasonable. :smoke:

Going forward, I really expect that TOAW III will be the baseline. Hopefully we'll do other games that are derived from the same engine, but all the features that make sense will eventually migrate into one engine. Exactly how we're going to do that, I don't know yet, but anyone that owns TOAW III should be using the latest engine, so MOST things should be worked back in in a patch. I expect to issue regular patches, probably a couple of months after each major game release that we do.:rolleyes: All the above is guesswork, and may change depending on circumstances, but that's what I want to do.

I'm really in this for the fun, I couldn't afford the hours or pay that a games programmer has to do. I hope to make a little money, but I'm not going to quit my day job yet. Maybe when sales hit 100k.:clown: To me, this was perfect, it's complete, well received, and small enough that I can do all the additions myself. That gives me some freedoms that the professional developers don't have.

I didn't know much of this, but I do know publishers, and often the consumer is the last to be considered. I am more likely to spend the money on the upgrade, it's just very frustrating to have paid, over the years, money for minimal upgrades and patches to existing software. I work with an independent game developer, and he still provides support for a game published 5 years ago! I guess my frame of reference doesn't include anything as harrowing as the TalonSoft thing.

I'm glad Norm was involved in this and that he approves (at least, I'm assuming he does) of Matrix's pricing strategy. I just get a little jumpy when I see a game patch (I know, that sounds so derogatory, but I don't know what else to call it!) cost a full tank of gas! ;)

So, tell me, Ralph,...is there any way I can buy it from you directly, so we can skip the middle-man?! :D

Here's to success!:toast:

[jlbetin]

What for 40$ more or less 38€
30 liter of Gas in France ( 1,30 €/litter)
2 very good bottle of Wine or 8 middle quality bottles
A good computer related book mainly 40€ here
Hum 6 to 8 cigarettes boxes

And for 40 € a game patched with hope that it will give rebirth to a nearly dead game
A hope that new generation will join us a give new blood to us Grognard.

Yes Matrix is not a charity company it needs to make money, even me the commie I accept it because it si probably one of the lattest copany which is abble to product this kind of game rather than those stupid dirty games in 3D supposed to reproduce a battlefield and in reality is just a global slaughter giving plyers the idea they are great generals!!!

Curt you are probably right on most of your reflexions but what is the best for all of us, that TOAW died little by little or that matrix make money but give a future to TOAW ????

I choose option II

My best Red friendship to you dear old Capitalist friend ( no news of your article ??)

Der WanderWaitingForTOAWIV

[JAMiAM]

You mean to say that, in this day and age, nobody wants to be able to play over the internet? I find that a bit, well, disturbing.:D

You can play "over the internet". It's called PBEM. You play your turn. You send it to your opponent, by email, over the internet.

I've got to get back to work over at Matrix. TOAW III is selling like hotcakes, and my thanks go out to each and every purchaser of this great product. Rather than addressing things that I've already publically addressed in my ACG interview, I need to spend my time supporting their needs.

Shouldn't you spend your time on designing "yet ANOTHER cool game" instead of trashing this one? To me, it seems a case of professional jealousy, and I find it a bit unbecoming...;)

[Polynike]

its TAOW ffs who cares about the price. i paid £21.99 for it which is at least £20 less that what ypu fork out on average for a new release that often dnt come anywhere near TOAW

i for one am chuffed to bits and cant wait to get stuck in with a pbem

[CPangracs]

You can play "over the internet". It's called PBEM. You play your turn. You send it to your opponent, by email, over the internet.

I've got to get back to work over at Matrix. TOAW III is selling like hotcakes, and my thanks go out to each and every purchaser of this great product. Rather than addressing things that I've already publically addressed in my ACG interview, I need to spend my time supporting their needs.

Shouldn't you spend your time on designing "yet ANOTHER cool game" instead of trashing this one? To me, it seems a case of professional jealousy, and I find it a bit unbecoming...;)

Sorry, but there can't be "jealousy" between entirely different types and genres of games. The games I do are completely different from TOAW, and you know it.

I have NOT trashed TOAW III. Not once. In fact, I OWN the game, and I LIKE the game. It's not my daily cup of tea, but my purchase automatically makes me a part of the community, and to discount me and my questions is to discount ANY community member's opinions and observations.

I was upset at being charged another $40 for what amounted to a patch. Why is that "professional jealousy", James? I know you posted a winking smiley, but that's kind of unbecoming in and of itself. I had a valid question, but I guess because I'm not a rabid fan and haven't read everything about this "version", I'm somehow not deserving of attention when I request information?

There's a huge difference between trashing a game and trashing its cost for the content. Ralph was kind enough to give me a runddown of what's going on with it without being flippant and without sending me off on some wild goose chase to hunt down an obscure post somewhere.

So thanks again, Ralph, for your patience.

James, well, you're James, so I have to keep reminding myself of that - look for a PM...

[jlbetin]

You can play "over the internet". It's called PBEM. You play your turn. You send it to your opponent, by email, over the internet.

I've got to get back to work over at Matrix. TOAW III is selling like hotcakes, and my thanks go out to each and every purchaser of this great product. Rather than addressing things that I've already publically addressed in my ACG interview, I need to spend my time supporting their needs.

Shouldn't you spend your time on designing "yet ANOTHER cool game" instead of trashing this one? To me, it seems a case of professional jealousy, and I find it a bit unbecoming...;)

Boys CP and Jamian, keep cool

both of opinions are just, fun no !!!

But we all need to be practical, in this bloody capitalist world to promote an idea a game or anything you need first MONEY.
If Matrix make enough money to offer Ralph possibilities to make TOAW evolve in a richer way with new potentialities I say Banco ( bingo on the other side of the pond)

Curt has made a game but here I never see it in the hyper market shelves !!!
Why, it is said that the market share for this kind of game is too little to offer it to the public.

So yes 40€ $ FrS Yen etc... is a lot of money but it is the price for TOAW survival and it is a price I would accept to pay, even and I'm not hypocrite here if I will receive a free copy. Why because I offered 2 of my scenarios and did some other work around them for Matrix.

I'm not Matrix devoted but I want them to survive for TOAW to be greatly enhanced. Ralph if you read this -> Especialy the Evil Editor

My most peacefull thoughts to all TOAW players who want or do not want to buy the new copy

Der WanderPeaceOnEarthForGoodwillMen

[Joao Lima]

...
And for 40 € a game patched with hope that it will give rebirth to a nearly dead game
...

The game was nearly dead? ermmm... I think I'm correct in saying that if it wasn't for the extraordinary vitality that TOAW-COW still has the Matrix Edition would never have seen the light of the day...

[CPangracs]

Boys CP and Jamian, keep cool

both of opinions are just, fun no !!!

But we all need to be practical, in this bloody capitalist world to promote an idea a game or anything you need first MONEY.
If Matrix make enough money to offer Ralph possibilities to make TOAW evolve in a richer way with new potentialities I say Banco ( bingo on the other side of the pond)

Curt has made a game but here I never see it in the hyper market shelves !!!
Why, it is said that the market share for this kind of game is too little to offer it to the public.

So yes 40€ $ FrS Yen etc... is a lot of money but it is the price for TOAW survival and it is a price I would accept to pay, even and I'm not hypocrite here if I will receive a free copy. Why because I offered 2 of my scenarios and did some other work around them for Matrix.

I'm not Matrix devoted but I want them to survive for TOAW to be greatly enhanced. Ralph if you read this -> Especialy the Evil Editor

My most peacefull thoughts to all TOAW players who want or do not want to buy the new copy

Der WanderPeaceOnEarthForGoodwillMen

Yes, JL, and great to see derWanderFrenchie is still alive and well!

You will, hopefully, NEVER see my games, or TOAW, or any other independent game, on the big retail shelves,...which also means you will never see a new copy in any bargain bin, anywhere!

Yes, the small game publishers/Developers/Designers SHOULD be supported, and the hardest part is trying to prevent the fan from bearing the brunt of the costs. I don't mind supporting game developers who make good games, no matter the publisher. I DO expecting something for my money, and the "promise" of further development is NOT the same as a contract between two people.

Now, I'm not saying this is the case, but all too often, promises are made to a gaming community for support and continued development, and the first thing that gets cut when sales aren't as expected is what? Yep, support and development, because it costs money without making money!

I hope you can see my point and, after spending over $20K in software over my lifetime, maybe you can understand my reluctance.

I want Ralph to be successful in his endeavor, I just think there has to be a balance between the amount of money charged and the content provided. Sometimes the promise of continued development isn't enough. It looks like it may well be in this case, and that's awesome.

Excuse me for being a "glass half empty" guy when it comes to spending my money on games!:D

[CPangracs]

The game was nearly dead? ermmm... I think I'm correct in saying that if it wasn't for the extraordinary vitality that TOAW-COW still has the Matrix Edition would never have seen the light of the day...

That's a great point,...you would think a patch would have been issued to reward the community, THEN a new game with agreat deal more content for sale a few months later? Oh well, I guess the community is willing to absorb that cost, so more power to the guys and much success!

[GJK]

Sorry, but there can't be "jealousy" between entirely different types and genres of games. The games I do are completely different from TOAW, and you know it.
Raging Tiger: The Second Korean War. That's you isn't it? I see it's an update (a "patch" if you will) to Armored Task Force. Very nice. Oh, and you have it on sale for only $44.95. Hmmm, almost $5.00 more than the Matrix Games "patch" of TOAW III.

[jlbetin]

Yes, JL, and great to see derWanderFrenchie is still alive and well!

You will, hopefully, NEVER see my games, or TOAW, or any other independent game, on the big retail shelves,...which also means you will never see a new copy in any bargain bin, anywhere!

Yes, the small game publishers/Developers/Designers SHOULD be supported, and the hardest part is trying to prevent the fan from bearing the brunt of the costs. I don't mind supporting game developers who make good games, no matter the publisher. I DO expecting something for my money, and the "promise" of further development is NOT the same as a contract between two people.

Now, I'm not saying this is the case, but all too often, promises are made to a gaming community for support and continued development, and the first thing that gets cut when sales aren't as expected is what? Yep, support and development, because it costs money without making money!

I hope you can see my point and, after spending over $20K in software over my lifetime, maybe you can understand my reluctance.

I want Ralph to be successful in his endeavor, I just think there has to be a balance between the amount of money charged and the content provided. Sometimes the promise of continued development isn't enough. It looks like it may well be in this case, and that's awesome.

Excuse me for being a "glass half empty" guy when it comes to spending my money on games!:D

Humm looking at my computer games shelves I'm not far from you.

Question when you say you own TOAW did you bought too the TOAW III version?

Are you still playing PBEM with TOAW ? If I recall well answer was no, but if the new version correct some known flaws will you change your mind ?

On my own, playing TOAW is a less great pleasure then designing scenarios. My mad mind ,or my imagination as Rasmus told it, takes his wide range
US against Europe in three scenario invasion of Norway, Invasion of UK invasion of France, and a beta version of Invadind USA ( name 2006:Fall of USA).
The three scenario are used in the actual tournament birth of european army

That's why I love so much TOAW I feel to be a war planner a "What If" if you prefer

My best thoughts

Der WanderGeneralEnChef

[jlbetin]

Raging Tiger: The Second Korean War. That's you isn't it? I see it's an update (a "patch" if you will) to Armored Task Force. Very nice. Oh, and you have it on sale for only $44.95. Hmmm, almost $5.00 more than the Matrix Games "patch" of TOAW III.

Him or the company which have probably bought the rights !!!!

That's something quite different

Der WanderToDot'sOnesI

[ralphtrickey]

You mean to say that, in this day and age, nobody wants to be able to play over the internet? I find that a bit, well, disturbing.:D

You mention the game mechanics, but I find that hard to believe - if a system can accept PBEM files and run them, then it is a simple step to accept them over TCIP and run them in a coordinated manner.

I may have been thinking about how TOAW was used here recently - Iwas told the game was networked and I was under the impression that they were linked in an online multiplayer game, but I surely may be mistaken. I was out and about that week, so I didn't get a chance to observe it. I will have to breakout my copy and reinstall it. Either way, I guess there hasn't been a great desire for it from the community, or you guys would have been working on it...;)
Actually, most of the guys playing PBEM are taking an hour or more per turn, so it's not a huge deal. Many of them are still on dial-up too, so networked play just isn't a huge deal. It's an IgoUgo game. not a WeGo game. Because of the rounds, it would be difficult to add networked play in a reasonable manner.

I'll probably add it at some point for tournament play, to prevent cheating, but that's a ways down the road.

I may also add it in a simple version to see if it encourages quick games, but I'll have to add in a matching server, and some other infrastructure.

[CPangracs]

Raging Tiger: The Second Korean War. That's you isn't it? I see it's an update (a "patch" if you will) to Armored Task Force. Very nice. Oh, and you have it on sale for only $44.95. Hmmm, almost $5.00 more than the Matrix Games "patch" of TOAW III.

This isn't about my game, but since you brought it up...

Read everything, assume nothing. It is an entirely different game, as is the other one I did. The same basic engine is there, with added functions, but all of the units, maps, and scenarios are entirely new and different. That is what you call "content". The maps and pieces are hand drawn and painstakingly recreated from, as often as possible, the actual maps of the area. The only "update" is in the engine - EVERYTHING else is new, and I spent a year of my life, by myself, to create everything but the engine, so yeah, the pricing is quite reasonable, and, like Ralph, I don't do it to make money, I do it because I love the genre, I love the game engine and its potential, and I am friends with the developer.

I've bought and played TOAW CoW, can you say the same about my games? BTW, there are free demos of my games, how about the TOAW games? Not that I've seen - so I encourage you to play all of the demos and see if things are "different" enough to warrant the price tag. If not, don't buy them! ;) Oh, and you can find my games or the other ATF-based games for $39 or less if you search for it. But hey, thanks for noticing.

Again, I have not trashed TOAW itself, only the pricing strategy for the content, but I don't expect any understanding from anyone as I kind of jumped on that one point, and everyone ASSumed I was trashing the game.

I'm a HUGE supporter of independent wargames, however I'm also outspoken when I see something that doesn't seem quite right.

So sue me...

[CPangracs]

Actually, most of the guys playing PBEM are taking an hour or more per turn, so it's not a huge deal. Many of them are still on dial-up too, so networked play just isn't a huge deal. It's an IgoUgo game. not a WeGo game. Because of the rounds, it would be difficult to add networked play in a reasonable manner.

I'll probably add it at some point for tournament play, to prevent cheating, but that's a ways down the road.

I may also add it in a simple version to see if it encourages quick games, but I'll have to add in a matching server, and some other infrastructure.

IMO, a MP capability with agreed-upon turn time limits and the ability to save and reload would REALLY extend the playability of the TOAW franchise!

PM me, and I can talk with you about how we use turn-based MP games where I work...

BTW, love your sig! I may have to adopt something similar after today...

[jlbetin]

So sue me...

Yes all of will order beers on the account of CP, Belgium beer obviously.
The Best in the World a LEFFE.:toast:

Poor CP he must sell lot lot of games to sustain this punishment :drink:

Der WansderStillNotPlastered:yummy:

[jlbetin]

PM me, and I can talk with you about how we use turn-based MP games where I work...


No No No !!!! No low mass without a priest, no whispering without moderator, I hear you my son confess your digital sins, In nomine pater et fillii et spiritu sancto
confiteor .....

Der WanderLatinMass

[CPangracs]

...Poor CP he must sell lot lot of games to sustain this punishment...

I do okay. I make enough to feed my gaming hardware and software habit, and I enjoy the creativity so much it's almost sad! ;)

[ralphtrickey]

IMO, a MP capability with agreed-upon turn time limits and the ability to save and reload would REALLY extend the playability of the TOAW franchise!

PM me, and I can talk with you about how we use turn-based MP games where I work...

BTW, love your sig! I may have to adopt something similar after today...
I'll take you up on that later. For the next couple of weeks, I'm going to monitor the forums for problems, and try to catch up on real-life. That and pray for no more bugs. I the past 3 weeks, I've learned WAY too much about the Audiere library and the windows graphics library just recenltly.

Best of luck,
Ralph

[CPangracs]

I'll take you up on that later. For the next couple of weeks, I'm going to monitor the forums for problems, and try to catch up on real-life. That and pray for no more bugs. I the past 3 weeks, I've learned WAY too much about the Audiere library and the windows graphics library just recenltly.

Best of luck,
Ralph

So that means squashing bugs will be a simple task!

Luck to you as well - time to go coach my son's baseball game - we're 2-0!

Curt

[jlbetin]

So that means squashing bugs will be a simple task!

Luck to you as well - time to go coach my son's baseball game - we're 2-0!

Curt

Baseball what's that. Civilized folks world wide play soccer. World cup is in Munich Germany Europe the last civilized part of the Earth Planet

We may admit basket ball but from end of lips

Der WanderGoaaaaaallllll

[jlbetin]

I'll take you up on that later. For the next couple of weeks, I'm going to monitor the forums for problems, and try to catch up on real-life. That and pray for no more bugs. I the past 3 weeks, I've learned WAY too much about the Audiere library and the windows graphics library just recenltly.

Best of luck,
Ralph

You have developed in Java??

Swing beans are hummmm so easy :lier:

Der WanderJavaMadCow:nuts:

[ralphtrickey]

You have developed in Java??

Swing beans are hummmm so easy :lier:

Der WanderJavaMadCow:nuts:
I developed for Java 1.4. I remember we had to deploy using a beta version, since the production version leaked all over the place.

Now I'm learning C#. Tons more fun :nuts:

[John Osborne]

Hell Ralph. I'm from Colorado Springs. I live between Peyton and Ellocot, But I work at Fort Leavenworth, KS. Hell Going to have to met you one of these days and try TOAW III :laugh:

John

[jayedub7423]

wow, how did this thread get so off topic?

as i see it, i spend more money on games that i might finish, so i'm looking forward to buying this, cause i have a feeling i will be playing this for awhile!!

[ralphtrickey]

Hell Ralph. I'm from Colorado Springs. I live between Peyton and Ellocot, But I work at Fort Leavenworth, KS. Hell Going to have to met you one of these days and try TOAW III :laugh:

John
John,
Small world, isn't it? That's one heck of a commute for you there, isn't it? I guess I'll quit complaining about mine:D

Ralph

[jeff norton]

I developed for Java 1.4. I remember we had to deploy using a beta version, since the production version leaked all over the place.

Now I'm learning C#. Tons more fun :nuts:
Learning that in college now. I though learning C was bad to start - at least C# uses 'objects', like Java.

I still have no Idea how I made it thru C. I mean, it did not seem hard, but the code usage was hard enough. The compiler the school made us use was one step above unusable. And, I'm not even gonna comment upon the error codes... I liked Java FAR better.

I was surprised to learn (from you) that Norm coded the game in C. Either he had an understanding of the code far above normalicy, or, he had a mezzo-demon as his 'code monkey'...:laugh:

I'd offer my services, in the future, but I'm about sub-20 credits away from a CS degree, and, my limited time is lurking, playing a few turns, and family time, tho, not in that order....:nuts:

Maybe next spring, when things 'calm down'...

[Marmont]

Just wondering... Will TOAW III be released in stores or do I have to order the boxed copies from matrix games directly? And how much is the CD copy?

And to those who are already devouring TOAW III, how are the map graphics? From the screenshots, the terrain features look a bit simplified compared to the original ACOW.

[ralphtrickey]

Learning that in college now. I though learning C was bad to start - at least C# uses 'objects', like Java.

I was surprised to learn (from you) that Norm coded the game in C. Either he had an understanding of the code far above normalicy, or, he had a mezzo-demon as his 'code monkey'...:laugh:


I think that Norm started coding this close to 20 years ago. At that time, C was the de facto language for game design. It's not bad if you know assembler, the big problem is that you have to use global variables for everything. I caused a couple of problems in Elmer, and makes everything ahrder to understand.

[tevans]

Raging Tiger: The Second Korean War. That's you isn't it? I see it's an update (a "patch" if you will) to Armored Task Force. Very nice. Oh, and you have it on sale for only $44.95. Hmmm, almost $5.00 more than the Matrix Games "patch" of TOAW III.

Raging Tiger is a completely different and seperate game from Armored Task Force. Both games do use the same game engine but game engines are reused all the time. HPS anyone? The thing is the TOAW III engine is basically the same one for COW. Just bug fixes and a few minor enhancements. I totally agree that TOAW III seems nothing more than a glorified patch. What makes it so bad is that Talonsoft milked the TOAW franchise for all it was worth and now it appears that Matrix plans on doing the same.

I'm sorry, I don't believe in buying a product just to support future development. Let Matrix give me value for my money. To some TOAW III is a bargain. To others like me, who was duped into buying every retail version, $40 is a little steep for bug fixes, a few enhancements and scenarios that I already have or can get off the internet. That's not a knock against Ralph or his team. I'm sure they did a good job. I just want more value for my money.

[nemo]

And to those who are already devouring TOAW III, how are the map graphics? From the screenshots, the terrain features look a bit simplified compared to the original ACOW. A new graphic set has been implemented in TOAW III, which makes for the difference you've noticed in the screenshots. These new graphics are clearer and it's easier to tell one terrain tile from another when using them. You can however revert back to the classic graphic set at a glance (through an installer) or easily install any graphic mod you like, using the AltGraphics folder.

As for the boxed version hitting the stores, I'm not sure. There's a FAQ over at the Matrix TOAW III forums (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=225), you can probably ask there.

[General Staff]

I'm sorry lads, but talking glorified patch makes me :censored: angry. A lot of essentially 'free' and unpaid time went into this from guys like Brian, Daniel and James.

If Matrix makes money of this then, well, I think that's great. They took the risk with their capital and deserve to reap the rewards. And you know what too? We might just get lucky and they might plough some of their profits back into a money-maker.

[GJK]

And to those who are already devouring TOAW III, how are the map graphics? From the screenshots, the terrain features look a bit simplified compared to the original ACOW.
The game is very easy to mod now (maybe COW was before, I don't recall to be honest). I worked on a set of mods last night, some samples:

Original:
Original Screen (http://www.matrixgames.com/files/games/s317_TOAW3_shot6.jpg)

Updated:
Updated Screen 1 (http://www.garykrockover.com/uploads/TOAW3-screen2.jpg)

Original:
Original Screen 2 (http://www.matrixgames.com/files/games/s317_TOAW3_shot10.jpg)

Updated:
Updated Screen 2 (http://www.garykrockover.com/uploads/TOAW3-screen1.jpg)

Original:
Original Screen 3 (http://www.matrixgames.com/files/games/s317_TOAW3_shot2.jpg)

Updated (optional - not sure if I like this pattern or the previous one better):
Updated Screen 3 (http://www.garykrockover.com/uploads/TOAW3-screen3.jpg)

Warning, my updated images are very large, yet low res jpgs.

[shadow]

Baseball what's that. Civilized folks world wide play soccer. World cup is in Munich Germany Europe the last civilized part of the Earth Planet

We may admit basket ball but from end of lips

Der WanderGoaaaaaallllll

"Civilized folks" do not say soccer :D

[Boonierat]

Gary, updated screen 2 is really nice, reminds me of The Gamers type of graphics.

[CPangracs]

I'm sorry lads, but talking glorified patch makes me :censored: angry. A lot of essentially 'free' and unpaid time went into this from guys like Brian, Daniel and James.

If Matrix makes money of this then, well, I think that's great. They took the risk with their capital and deserve to reap the rewards. And you know what too? We might just get lucky and they might plough some of their profits back into a money-maker.

Nobody is trying to belittle the effort that went into the patch,...unfortunately you contradicted yourself when you said "If MATRIX makes money..."

That kind of says it all. The only problem, I think, anyone has, is paying for FUTURE development, and not PRESENT content. It is a matter of opinion, and your passionate anger towards dissenters is a tad misplaced. Many of us will still buy it solely to support the community, but it doesn't mean we have to just shut-up and like it, which seems to be what you would prefer.

I'm not sorry to disappoint you in the least...:p

[liuzg150181]

Nobody is trying to belittle the effort that went into the patch,...unfortunately you contradicted yourself when you said "If MATRIX makes money..."

That kind of says it all. The only problem, I think, anyone has, is paying for FUTURE development, and not PRESENT content. It is a matter of opinion, and your passionate anger towards dissenters is a tad misplaced. Many of us will still buy it solely to support the community, but it doesn't mean we have to just shut-up and like it, which seems to be what you would prefer.

I'm not sorry to disappoint you in the least...:p
Since i have already posted it at Armchair General forum,might as well air my view here........
i dont mean to say that you dont have a point,but simply put it is a matter of economic principles that it is being charged that way.
Prior to TOAW3,looking for a copy of TOAW:CoW was almost impossible,if not really so,as such i would say that comparing it to HoI2 and its expansion Doomsday is rather inappopriate comparison due to the fact of TOAW:CoW's shortage in supply.
When Matrix games Inc bought the liscence to republish the Talonsoft wargame i am sure it isnt an assured profitability? Considering the rather retro graphics and that the more recent wargames' aesthetic improvements and innovations compared to their predecessors,wouldnt there be a possbility that the venture might fumble,as in it wouldnt be well-received as anticipated? I consider the price justified in this sense as a reward to their entreprenourship.
Lastly,if not due to Matrix games Inc purchasing the rights and republishing the game again,i might not even get to enjoy the masterpiece of wargaming,thus i dont mind paying the price. Nevertheless,your motive of posing the objection is really laudable and valid.

[General Staff]

I'm not sorry to disappoint you in the least...:p
Great and you don't. No sarcasm at all intended- I think dissent is good and focusses- as you say yourself- matters of opinion. Maybe that's what forums are partly for.

If I could buy shares in Matrix I probably would, but I believe it's a private company.

[Bloodstar]

Nobody is trying to belittle the effort that went into the patch,...unfortunately you contradicted yourself when you said "If MATRIX makes money..."

That kind of says it all. The only problem, I think, anyone has, is paying for FUTURE development, and not PRESENT content. It is a matter of opinion, and your passionate anger towards dissenters is a tad misplaced. Many of us will still buy it solely to support the community, but it doesn't mean we have to just shut-up and like it, which seems to be what you would prefer.

I'm not sorry to disappoint you in the least...:p

I agree with you Curt...and I said it almost the same on some places...

Point is that wargamers are mostly people with higher earnings and matters like this can pass easier... There is no RTS or FPS or more mainstream game that will cost almost the same if it is re-released (with some minor update) after 6 years...

There is some difference however, TOAW never hit bargain bin or was released as a budget release (in fact most wargamers don't do that), also demand was ok over the years so Matrix can rationalite this that if Take 2 didn't lowered the price, why should they? They can also say that it will be disprespectful toward TOAW classic if they offered this at 20$ price range for example...

I will also buy this game but that doesn't stop me to say what I think as I am fan and fans don't need to get into exhalted behaviour and don't see truth here. And there is positive side and negative sides here.

In fact I have also come to conclusion that nobody should credit anybody to work on improved version of TOAW or any other game. There is not such thing in games business as far as I know. It's risky business but nobody of gamers will give you money and say hey make me a better Quake or Age of Empires... Matrix have Venture Capitalist or banks if they need money to develop games.

But, I am not completely negative and there is also a positive side of this... that is community involvement, and the matter that in fact things have started to roll from zero.

But just that doesn't stop me to privately think that Matrix are bunch of greedy bastards who are after the money and that they using TOAW community sentiments to actually make money. Why I shouldn't have right to think that way and to say it? Is this maybe forbidden? Heh.

I am the one that will also buy this game but the matter was not done completely fair and in a matter of honour...

To moderators: I didn't offended anybody, when Matrix apologize for charging the game 40 bucks then I will also apology. Or find me similiar case in game business.


Mario

[General Staff]

TOAW never hit bargain bin
It did actually. I think I picked it up (TOAW- Campaign Set) originally for c$5-10 around 1998-99, being flogged off by Take2 not Talonsoft.

Because it was so cheap (in those days I tended to equate value with money) it sat around as a curiosity for a year or so before I tried it.

[Boonierat]

It did actually.

Exact, I recall buying a bundle with TOAW II and Divided Ground (CS) for like 5€, even if I had it already :nuts:

[Bloodstar]

It did actually. I think I picked it up (TOAW- Campaign Set) originally for c$5-10 around 1998-99, being flogged off by Take2 not Talonsoft.

Because it was so cheap (in those days I tended to equate value with money) it sat around as a curiosity for a year or so before I tried it.

OK, I was talking about COW... Maybe I was harsh and maybe I regret it but Curt have hit it in the head... so I will just paste his post from Armchair General, I almost agrees to the last word... maybe I will do things a little bit different but this is also good:

CURT:
-----

Okay, just for the sake of conversation, here's what I would have done had I acquired the rights:

1. Released the original CoW under my label at $19.99 - used revenues to support the programming done by Ralph Trickey to fix bugs ONLY, and maybe get some people to create new maps/scenarios/troop lists, etc...

2. Follow-up 6 months later with "CoW Unleashed" that included upgraded graphics, at least 20 new scenarios, and an expanded troop list AND the engine improvements for $19.99, with an optional CoW Complete that has everything rolled-up into one package for $39.99.

3. Begin work on major enhancements and a different "look and feel" for "TOAW: A Millenium of Warfare" which would include an "ancients" combat model!

But hey, what do I know? We are not privvy to how much Matrix paid for the game, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say "Not that much" for the simple fact that it was, and this is the community's term, "dying" and needed to be fixed and new life pumped into it. This alone drives the price of software down. For all intents and purposes, it's highly likely that TOAW would have become "freeware" in a year or two, and Matrix swooped-in and got it for a song. There are many other games that run on a similar engine,...even a few that do the basics much better than TOAW, so it isn't like Matrix was buying anything new or that couldn't be coded by a college student (sorry Ralph, not a slam against you, just a reality IMO).

In addition, don't think that Norm Koger will be involved from this point on - he's made his farewells to the franchise, which is sad.

Now we have a business model that depends solely on the community that has supported it with many many hours gratis being charged to provide possible future support. There is no contract between you and Matrix to provide this support (read the EULA - nowhere does it say that Matrix won't charge you for the next version or in some way deliver support for this version forever). Again, the community is paying over and over again for patching that is normally done as support for the game and is included in the game. The main thing here is profit, and that is the bottom line for Matrix - it is a business, and that's the way it is done.

If you would like to see an example of a community buying a game engine and keeping it going with a loyal following and the game is FREE, check out Terra: Battle for the outland. This MMPOG came out before TOAW and developed a huge following. The company that owned it ignored it and drove it into the ground, and a small group of fans bought the rights to the engine and they kept it alive. IMO, that's something that COULD have happened in the case of TOAW, but the committment level just wasn't there. Oh, people talk a good game, but if everyone who is now ponying-up $40 for the patch had donated it to buying the engine and rights from Norm Koger, you guys would have some kind of control over what happens with it, and you guys could have done it far cheaper and on YOUR time schedule, no one elses.

Anyway, I think I've made my case FOR TOAW and AGAINST the particular business model. I'm not discouraging anyone who believes in the game and wants to buy the update from buying it, I only hope they think about what they are doing and maybe become a bit more demanding of game companies and what you get for your money.

Party on.

-----

[Pdqport]

It did actually. I think I picked it up (TOAW- Campaign Set) originally for c$5-10 around 1998-99, being flogged off by Take2 not Talonsoft.

Yep. I picked up my copy of CoW 4-5 years ago at my local Gamestop. It had sat on their shelf for months and I waited for the price to drop from $19.99 to $9.99.

I own three variations of TOAW already so I gotta say that dropping $40 bucks for a fourth does seem a bit much. I may pick up TOAW III down the road, but it'll be quite a while and hopefully for less $$.

[Bob Cross]

Nobody is trying to belittle the effort that went into the patch,...unfortunately you contradicted yourself when you said "If MATRIX makes money..."

That kind of says it all. The only problem, I think, anyone has, is paying for FUTURE development, and not PRESENT content. It is a matter of opinion, and your passionate anger towards dissenters is a tad misplaced. Many of us will still buy it solely to support the community, but it doesn't mean we have to just shut-up and like it, which seems to be what you would prefer.

I'm not sorry to disappoint you in the least...:p

Your self-serving posts have been so unfair to Matrix that I just have to respond. Matrix deserves our praise and gratitude, not criticism. There is no downside to what Matrix has done for us. It’s all good.

Think of where we were before Matrix stepped in. ACOW was totally unsupported by Talonsoft (Take Two), and if you wanted a copy you were practically reduced to begging on E-bay. Anyone who thinks that Talonsoft was ever going to provide a free update to ACOW should seek psychiatric help. Eventually, this superb game system would have faded into twilight from neglect. Matrix rescued it.

When they did so, they would have been completely within their rights to just stamp “Matrix” on the ACOW package and sell it unchanged for the full price Talonsoft was asking. Anyone who thinks Matrix (not Talonsoft) owed anyone a free upgrade should seek the same help as above.

But Matrix went far beyond that. Yes, the first release has focused on the easy things first, like bug fixes and cheat prevention. But even this release has features added that go far beyond what could have been expected in a mere “patch”:

1. Max Rounds Per Battle – originally intended to benefit very large-scale games where one doesn’t want a long-lasting attack in Finland to scuttle the entire Barbarossa offensive, it will be invaluable for almost all subjects. TOAW III games will be very different from ACOW games thanks to this alone. Imagine using “ignore losses” as standard attack practice without fear of burning the entire turn.
2. An additional 499 event slots – we begged Norm for this for years, but he couldn’t believe that anyone could use 500 events, much less 999. Large scenarios that have been straightjacketed by the limit are going to get the special effects they’ve needed.
3. No borders – increased fog-of-war. This will be especially useful for Vietnam and Desert War scenarios.
4. Scenario-specific alternate graphics – Now if someone makes a set of alternate graphics for War of the Rings (for example), you can place them in a folder just for that scenario and the game will use them only for that scenario, without requiring all other scenarios to make the Third Reich look like it’s filled with orcs.
5. Foreign language support – even if you only speak English, you will still benefit from the expansion of TOAW’s appeal, via the increased capitol for further enhancements.
6. Movies – it’s intended to aid documenting for AARs and such. But it should be clear to anyone that it will also help with planning moves and grasping the situation, especially for the larger scenarios.
7. Improved PO – what had been a joke may now give you a real game. This will benefit scenario design as well, which depends on a good PO for test purposes.
8. The TOAW III scenario collection – yes you can get every one of them off the web. But first you would have to find them, download them, convert them, and then sort through all the chaff that’s on the web with them. Just having them included with the game gives them a common access throughout the TOAW community. You can expect to find an opponent who is familiar with those titles. And having been selected by a team of evaluators gives them a sanction the typical web scenario lacks. I have met people who would never download a scenario off the web, much less play one. We really don’t know what fraction of the TOAW community actually downloads scenarios off the web. And who knows in what backward location a boxed version of the game may land.
9. The tutorials – everyone likes “noob meat”. Well, after getting tutored by Norm, JAMiAM and General Staff, (not to mention the improved PO) it may not be so tasty anymore.
10. Windows XP support - ACOW was a Windows 98 product that had been patched up to Windows 2000 to some extent. It could only be expected to work in Windows XP if it was forced to emulate Windows 2000. TOAW III is Windows XP ready.

I could go on about the digitized and updated Manual, the info panel about how much of the turn remains, SitRep Logs, High Supply, switch to BMP map dumps, new sound files, the new look of the interface, period graphics and sounds, ability to run multiple copies at the same time, bug fixes, and cheat prevention (a feature in itself). I’ll even tout the choice of graphics packages. But perhaps the best feature of all is the excellent prospect of further enhancements in the future. As I said, it’s all good.

As I see it, the market for this game falls into three categories:

1. Those who never purchased ACOW. There’s no question about it. They would be out of their minds to purchase ACOW now when TOAW III is available and much better.
2. Those who have ACOW and are fanatic about it. They will grab TOAW III like a drowning man gulping for air.
3. Those who have ACOW and are not fanatic about it. I can’t envision such people, but let’s just assume they exist for discussion sake. It’s possible that they might choose to stay with ACOW and wait to see what further enhancements to TOAW III come out. Fine, but I would contend that the list of enhancements is already long enough to justify the switch.
4. Other wargame designers who would like to trash the launch of a competitor's product. They have a right to their opinion. But we must consider its motivation.

[Bloodstar]

Your self-serving posts have been so unfair to Matrix that I just have to respond. Matrix deserves our praise and gratitude, not criticism. There is no downside to what Matrix has done for us. It’s all good.

Think of where we were before Matrix stepped in. ACOW was totally unsupported by Talonsoft (Take Two), and if you wanted a copy you were practically reduced to begging on E-bay. Anyone who thinks that Talonsoft was ever going to provide a free update to ACOW should seek psychiatric help. Eventually, this superb game system would have faded into twilight from neglect. Matrix rescued it.

Bob,

I think that there's no need to slam Curt as I don't see any of his agendas because he is another game developer and I don't see any jealousy on his part. He stated and me some good and valid points but you obviously choosed to IGNORE it... That is not nice in any discussion.

Who ever told that Matrix should give anything for free???

On another note - if you like to pay some things all over again and again and again then that's another thing. All changes that you listed is not something that in TODAY'S GAMES BUSINESS will warrant 40 US$ price tag.

Let me explain you in this case, just look at Heroes V game and imagine how many PAID ARTIST HOURS it needed to get such gorgeus graphics....

Yeah, I am fool and Heroes V should have been in fact like Heroes 3! Why Ubi Soft upgraded the graphics anyway! That game Sir cost like TOAW 3! So don't be fooled that TOAW 3 is low priced and that is the point of this discussion.

Or maybe wargaming is located on Mars and Earth business logic doesn't apply here.

Now, Matrix can make let's say 300000 US$ and start to work on a new TOAW. Bravo! That way they could went to any Venture Capitalist or bank and get 300000 US$ for development like everybody is doing these days and not wait that community pay for development.

Blah. So let's straight the facts up.


Mario

[JAMiAM]

Bob, that deserves a major dose of positive rep. Thanks for putting it so well.

[CPangracs]

Your self-serving posts have been so unfair to Matrix that I just have to respond. Matrix deserves our praise and gratitude, not criticism. There is no downside to what Matrix has done for us. It’s all good...

...Other wargame designers who would like to trash the launch of a competitor's product. They have a right to their opinion. But we must consider its motivation.

Sorry, but I have only "trashed" Matrix's decision in the release of this particular product. Clearly, you are so close to this in some way, shape, or form that you are reading what you want (as is James, but that's a given).

How are ANY of my posts "self-serving? I have not trashed TOAW in any way, shape, or form. I purchase Matrix games that I decide to purchase (I own 5 titles so far, and that comes to over $200 spent with that company). I purchase what I want from whomever I want, and I have questioned certain practices such as this one by other publishers. It has nothing to do with me being a game designer, as my games appeal to a COMPLETELY different type of wargamer, and they are a completely different type of game. You can't ASSume to know my motivations in anything I do, from getting up in the morning to posting here, except that you think I am somehow trashing someone or something out of some internally concocted professional jealousy of yours.

The second you start to believe that Matrix did what they did out of some altruistic dedication to the TOAW community, well, maybe it's time to do a reality check. NO publisher is going to throw good money at something if there isn't some kind of payout, or possibility of a payout, in the end.

So, now we must consider YOUR motivation, yes? Matrix doesn't compete with me or my games. The closest thing to my games is HTTR and COTA,...and I have or will have purchased both because they are good NEW games with entirely NEW content - no reason at all to question the price or the cost of doing that business, I assure you.

I suspect that, because I am a wargame designer, I should be made to keep my comments and observations to myself? Sorry, but I'm not built that way. Those that have specific complaints about MY product, designer or otherwise, have made their opinions known to me all too well, where is it written that I can't do the same as a consumer? I am, above all else, a consumer of wargames. I am the type of person wargame designers love - I have a great deal of disposable income, an ecclectic taste in genres, and I can (and do) help wargame designers in a professional capacity.

Some people would rather I just shut up and ride the waves along with everyone else. Again, I'm not a sheep, I have opinions and ideas, just like everyone else. Unfortunately, some people think that I have somehow given up the right to express them when I decided to create wargames.

Interesting that...

BTW, Bob,..."Matrix" has done absolutely nothing with this product - it is a group of fans who are dedicated to the game and NOT the company who have created this update. Yes, Ralph was paid for his work, but even in his own words, he wasn't paid nearly enough for what he did. If you want to believe that most of each $40 spent on TOAW III is going to those who've done the work, I have a few AWESOME stock tips for you...

If I get a list of emails for each person who contributed to this release, I will PayPal them an equitable piece of $40 to make sure they get compensated for their hard work, and I don't even want the product.

Anyone else in the TOAW community willing to do that? Doubt it. We are consumers, and for all of the idealistic talk, few are(were) willing to put-up or shut-up. I AM willing to do exactly what I propose, and there are a few people who frequent here and could verify that I do it. Of course, the list of people getting a payment from me would be proof enough.

[Okimaw]

Your self-serving posts have been so unfair to Matrix that I just have to respond. Matrix deserves our praise and gratitude, not criticism. There is no downside to what Matrix has done for us. It’s all good.

Think of where we were before Matrix stepped in. ACOW was totally unsupported by Talonsoft (Take Two), and if you wanted a copy you were practically reduced to begging on E-bay. Anyone who thinks that Talonsoft was ever going to provide a free update to ACOW should seek psychiatric help. Eventually, this superb game system would have faded into twilight from neglect. Matrix rescued it.

When they did so, they would have been completely within their rights to just stamp “Matrix” on the ACOW package and sell it unchanged for the full price Talonsoft was asking. Anyone who thinks Matrix (not Talonsoft) owed anyone a free upgrade should seek the same help as above.

But Matrix went far beyond that. Yes, the first release has focused on the easy things first, like bug fixes and cheat prevention. But even this release has features added that go far beyond what could have been expected in a mere “patch”:

1. Max Rounds Per Battle – originally intended to benefit very large-scale games where one doesn’t want a long-lasting attack in Finland to scuttle the entire Barbarossa offensive, it will be invaluable for almost all subjects. TOAW III games will be very different from ACOW games thanks to this alone. Imagine using “ignore losses” as standard attack practice without fear of burning the entire turn.
2. An additional 499 event slots – we begged Norm for this for years, but he couldn’t believe that anyone could use 500 events, much less 999. Large scenarios that have been straightjacketed by the limit are going to get the special effects they’ve needed.
3. No borders – increased fog-of-war. This will be especially useful for Vietnam and Desert War scenarios.
4. Scenario-specific alternate graphics – Now if someone makes a set of alternate graphics for War of the Rings (for example), you can place them in a folder just for that scenario and the game will use them only for that scenario, without requiring all other scenarios to make the Third Reich look like it’s filled with orcs.
5. Foreign language support – even if you only speak English, you will still benefit from the expansion of TOAW’s appeal, via the increased capitol for further enhancements.
6. Movies – it’s intended to aid documenting for AARs and such. But it should be clear to anyone that it will also help with planning moves and grasping the situation, especially for the larger scenarios.
7. Improved PO – what had been a joke may now give you a real game. This will benefit scenario design as well, which depends on a good PO for test purposes.
8. The TOAW III scenario collection – yes you can get every one of them off the web. But first you would have to find them, download them, convert them, and then sort through all the chaff that’s on the web with them. Just having them included with the game gives them a common access throughout the TOAW community. You can expect to find an opponent who is familiar with those titles. And having been selected by a team of evaluators gives them a sanction the typical web scenario lacks. I have met people who would never download a scenario off the web, much less play one. We really don’t know what fraction of the TOAW community actually downloads scenarios off the web. And who knows in what backward location a boxed version of the game may land.
9. The tutorials – everyone likes “noob meat”. Well, after getting tutored by Norm, JAMiAM and General Staff, (not to mention the improved PO) it may not be so tasty anymore.

I could go on about the digitized and updated Manual, the info panel about how much of the turn remains, SitRep Logs, High Supply, switch to BMP map dumps, new sound files, the new look of the interface, period graphics and sounds, ability to run multiple copies at the same time, bug fixes, and cheat prevention (a feature in itself). I’ll even tout the choice of graphics packages. But perhaps the best feature of all is the excellent prospect of further enhancements in the future. As I said, it’s all good.

As I see it, the market for this game falls into three categories:

1. Those who never purchased ACOW. There’s no question about it. They would be out of their minds to purchase ACOW now when TOAW III is available and much better.
2. Those who have ACOW and are fanatic about it. They will grab TOAW III like a drowning man gulping for air.
3. Those who have ACOW and are not fanatic about it. I can’t envision such people, but let’s just assume they exist for discussion sake. It’s possible that they might choose to stay with ACOW and wait to see what further enhancements to TOAW III come out. Fine, but I would contend that the list of enhancements is already long enough to justify the switch.
4. Other wargame designers who would like to trash the launch of a competitor's product. They have a right to their opinion. But we must consider its motivation.
Thanks for speaking on behalf of the TOAW community. I agree that those posts were rather self serving. This guy never showed up in this forum until the release of TOAW 3, given the huge amount traffic in regards to this game, it provides a cheap opportunity to flog his own titles on readers

[Bloodstar]

Thanks for speaking on behalf of the TOAW community. I agree that those posts were rather self serving. This guy never showed up in this forum until the release of TOAW 3, given the huge amount traffic in regards to this game, it provides a cheap opportunity to flog his own titles on readers

Well I am also part of TOAW community and since 1998. actually since TOAW I.

I don't see anything wrong that he post here. His games are of no interest to me and I don't find his post as advertising of his games - would have been better that he logged on another name and posted his thoughts?
He is designer but also wargamer and customer in the end and also know industry... We don't need to mask something.

In the end - it's not bad that Matrix picked TOAW, and it's all great that actually development continues. That alone doesn't mean that we all need to shut up and be happy that this actually occured. If that is second coming of a Christ ok...

BTW, I will also buy the game - but reserve my right to say my opinion on the subject as for any other thing.

40 US$ is nothing, you see, nothing even for TOAW 3. For me as well is not big money. Here is talking about PRINCIPLE.

is Matrix have published how much they have paid for TOAW rights... No, and they know why they didn't do it... Also, developing of this version have also cost peanuts... Slave labour od scenario design group, paying Ralph some money and maybe some others...

Reality check - these days development of games COST FORTUNE!!! And they in the end cost 40 US$ or 50 US$...

Now, some will say yeah but TOAW is not mass market mainstream game and it will sold a lot less copies. True, but it also doesn't need army of programmers and artist to make. It doesn't need big marketing budget. So in the end there is bigger chance that hyped AAA product can fail than games that costed less to produce. I think that it is logical.

So although I am fan I will not think that Matrix is doing this because of altrusim and because he is in it to support TOAW community. They are here to make money. That is also fine but then some principle are to be respected. And anyone have right to say this. I have always praised TOAW community as self minded and intelligent individuals. We don't need some manipulation and fake talking that is cheap.

In the end I will buy a copy of TOAW 3 but just wanted to say what I wanted to say. Shot gun wedding.

EDIT: TOAW 3 is not CHEAP. That is a principle. James can talk that it cost 3 pizzas but Heroes 5 also cost 3 pizzas!
Heroes franchise cost Ubi Soft 1.3 MILLION US$! Development of Heroes 5 was also not cheap, yes it was done by cheaper russian labour but it was not cheap I assure you.
So, I think that we need to stop pretending. TOAW 3 should have been priced at 20 US$ - 25 $ max. Not 40 US$.



Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

I am sure Matrix won't go under for the sake of some criticism. Pangracs may have some points, or may not, what's the big deal, in the end we'll find out, or won't... :)

[CPangracs]

Thanks for speaking on behalf of the TOAW community. I agree that those posts were rather self serving. This guy never showed up in this forum until the release of TOAW 3, given the huge amount traffic in regards to this game, it provides a cheap opportunity to flog his own titles on readers

Nice. Another person who hasn't even bothered to read the thread. Did someone put something in someone's Kool-Aid? Who have I "flogged" with my games? My games have always been in my sig on this forum, and I've been here a LOOOOONG time. I've never made and comments about my own games until asked (or attacked) about them. Again, if you'd bother reading through the thread (it seems the trend is to skim and post, no matter how ignorant it makes the poster seem), you would see this is truth.

My games are so different from TOAW that I can't imagine anyone who is a TOAW fanatic to EVER buy one. I have been following the TOAW development off and on for the last few years, but I never felt the need to post about anything until an update was offered for the price of a new game without decidedly new content. I've made my point extremely clear on this.

BTW, I HAVE spoken on behalf of the TOAW community,...the one who, at first glance, it seems is getting charged for a "fixed" version of the game. I have had exchanges with Ralph on this subject, and I see there IS more to the update, however I am still of the opinion that the model used was less than sympathetic or friendly to the dedicated TOAW community.

Oh well, drive on and dance how you wanna dance.

[CPangracs]

I am sure Matrix won't go under for the sake of some criticism. Pangracs may have some points, or may not, what's the big deal, in the end we'll find out, or won't... :)

I wish I had your penchant for glibness! :D

[Bloodstar]

I am sure Matrix won't go under for the sake of some criticism. Pangracs may have some points, or may not, what's the big deal, in the end we'll find out, or won't... :)


Well said :) We all win in the end that is important but opinions doesn't need to collide every time :clown:


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

Well Pangracs, I think you're principally entitled to air your concerns, and I think they may have some merit, I just don't know how much - and instead of debating us to death over it now, we can await future developments.

And I certainly don't think you're trying to pull a PR stunt.

Did I pass your glibness threshold in this particular case thereby?

Edit: that would be sales promotion stunt...

[CyberRanger]

So, I think that we need to stop pretending. TOAW 3 should have been priced at 20 US$ - 25 $ max. Not 40 US$.

I will gladly pay $40 US for TOAW 3 and consider it a terrific bargain for the many, many hours of playing pleasure I'll gain from the purchase.

[General Staff]

My games are so different from TOAW that I can't imagine anyone who is a TOAW fanatic to EVER buy one.
Great! Then let's separate the one from the other(s) and maybe start a new thread.

In the interim let's all cry havoc and let slip the dogs of commerce.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The second you start to believe that Matrix did what they did out of some altruistic dedication to the TOAW community, well, maybe it's time to do a reality check. NO publisher is going to throw good money at something if there isn't some kind of payout, or possibility of a payout, in the end.

Well, Matrix Games have thrown some good money away with that Combined Arms -fiasco (and still pretend to publish it). I think this TOAW type of altruistic dedication is much better, with the current price tag and all. ;)

[Bloodstar]

I will gladly pay $40 US for TOAW 3 and consider it a terrific bargain for the many, many hours of playing pleasure I'll gain from the purchase.

That is not the point. COW also gave you that. And I am not against TOAW 3 to make myself clear. 40$ is yes, terrific bargain for TOAW 3. That's why Matrix have priced it 40 US$. I was just talking about that in fact Matrix will take us like a sheep and cut our skin, TWICE.

Now, I didn't say that in the end that means much as 40 US$ is nothing compared to what this delivers. I was talking about principle and practice in game industry. Matrix is getting money from us for further TOAW development.

Fine, then I want to see nothing more on how Matrix is nice toward fans of TOAW and how we should be greatful to Matrix.

I am not. I will pay them 40US$ but I will not trumpet around how Matrix is great. It's business after all.

And in fact Matrix doesn't mean to me NOTHING. They are nothing for me. Heart and soul of TOAW is Norm Koger no Matrix. They are merchants and I will just treat them like merchants. Norm Koger is maestro. They are just selling his art all over again. Like with paintings.


Mario

[CPangracs]

Great! Then let's separate the one from the other(s) and maybe start a new thread.

In the interim let's all cry havoc and let slip the dogs of commerce.

Not sure what you mean by this, but please understand, I never brought my games into this, someone ELSE did.

What would be the topic of some new thread?

Anyway, yes, by all means, go forth and spend big to support all wargames! ;)

[nemo]

Glibness... Learned a new word today.

[jayedub7423]

this thread has become way off topic, and i for one would like to see it closed. opinons are a wonderful thing, but sometimes they are better kept to one's self!

[Bloodstar]

this thread has become way off topic, and i for one would like to see it closed. opinons are a wonderful thing, but sometimes they are better kept to one's self!

No need to close it, but everyone need to calm down, first me. I was a little bit over the line, I am sorry. In fact maybe is this all trivial in the end.


Mario

[General Staff]

No need to close it, but everyone need to calm down, first me.I'd second that. And apologies if I offended anyone.

[Binder]

I don't know about you guys, but Matrix sent their goon squad over to my house, held a gun to my head and said "Buy TOAW-III, or ELSE!" Naturally, I complied. However, as a consolation they said I could ***** about the game and it's price all I wanted to. I decided not to take any chances and will remain silent over the matter. :lier:

[Veers]

Now this is the kind of war we need to see more often. At the end of it, everyone tips their hat, apologises, and Europe is not Aflame. :)

[tevans]

I will gladly pay $40 US for TOAW 3 and consider it a terrific bargain for the many, many hours of playing pleasure I'll gain from the purchase.

If you've never owned TOAW in any form then TOAW 3 is a great bargain abeit a pricey one for a game that's over 5 years old. On the other hand for someone like me who already owns every release in the TOAW series, TOAW 3 just doesn't seem like anything more than a patch. Where's the new content? All I see are bug fixes and some minor enhancements. There aren't even any new scenarios. Charging $40 for that is a little steep. Most new releases cost between $40 and $50.

This is not a knock on the guys who put this thing together but let's face facts. They didn't reinvent the wheel. This isn't a brand new game. It's a 'doctored' version of an old game. The code was already there. They just added a few enhancements and fixed bugs. Anyone thinking Matrix did this to 'save' or 'revive' the community is only kidding themselves. They did this to make money by capitalizing on the TOAW community. It's a hobby to us. It's a business to them. There's just not enough value for my dollar with this release. Bug fixes and minor enhancements do not warrant a $40 pricetag in my book. So I'll pass on this one.

[Secadegas]

So I'll pass on this one.

That's perfectly fine to me...

But please allow who wants to spend their money on TOAW 3 to do it without beeing considered a "sheep"...

(this "sheep thing" isn't directed to you ;) )

[jlbetin]

No need to close it, but everyone need to calm down, first me. I was a little bit over the line, I am sorry. In fact maybe is this all trivial in the end.


Mario

Like CP you are sentenced to pay a beer to each participant of this thread and obviously it must be a LEFFE

I will give you my adress for a couple of bottles :D

Der WanderMODERATOR

[Dicke Bertha]

That's perfectly fine to me...

But please allow who wants to spend their money on TOAW 3 to do it without beeing considered a "sheep"...

(this "sheep thing" isn't directed to you ;) )

So is USD 40 sheep or expensive?

[jlbetin]

I'd second that. And apologies if I offended anyone.

Same punition but you must offer a Guiness:toast:

Der WanderNearbyPlastered:drink:

[jlbetin]

Now this is the kind of war we need to see more often. At the end of it, everyone tips their hat, apologises, and Europe is not Aflame. :)

See Mark Stevens for EuropeAflame

Der WanderTotalyPlastered:nuts:

[jayedub7423]

i'm sorry too, i just want us to all get along. maybe a group hug is best:nuts:

[Bloodstar]

Like CP you are sentenced to pay a beer to each participant of this thread and obviously it must be a LEFFE

I will give you my adress for a couple of bottles :D

Der WanderMODERATOR


Hehe, ok!! :D


Mario

[nemo]

i'm sorry too, i just want us to all get along. maybe a group hug is best:nuts:Always ends up like this.

:D Did everybody shower at least?

[Bloodstar]

So is USD 40 sheep or expensive?

Once I was in Monte Carlo - Monaco, and I've had a headache, and went to some apotheke to buy some pills for pain, and I gave a credit card to the man there but he said - "No, this is too sheeeeep!" in his french accent.
I laughed in myself :clown:


Mario

[jlbetin]

i'm sorry too, i just want us to all get along. maybe a group hug is best:nuts:

As long as there are no personnal assaulting the exchange of ideas are totaly free. If things have to go to where they are not welcome, I will drive them back to the correct path, the 3 cross road on the left after "freedom of speech" road and "courtesy avenue"

Der WanderBrotherhoodOfMan

[Bloodstar]

As long as there are no personnal assaulting the exchange of ideas are totaly free. If things have to go to where they are not welcome, I will drive them back to the correct path, the 3 cross road on the left after "freedom of speech" road and "courtesy avenue"

Der WanderBrotherhoodOfMan

There must be Liberté Egalité Fraternité! ;)


Mario

[jlbetin]

Once I was in Monte Carlo - Monaco, and I've had a headache, and went to some apotheke to buy some pills for pain, and I gave a credit card to the man there but he said - "No, this is too sheeeeep!" in his french accent.
I laughed in myself :clown:


Mario

What's the Problem with French accent Zagrebian man !!!! hummmm
It's ok for this time but I have an EYE on you:devious:

Der WanderFrenchHaveBestEnglishAccentIntheWorldBetterT hanThoseDamnBritish

[Dicke Bertha]

Once I was in Monte Carlo - Monaco, and I've had a headache, and went to some apotheke to buy some pills for pain, and I gave a credit card to the man there but he said - "No, this is to sheeeeep!" in his french accent.
I laughed in myself :clown:
Mario
Ha, I bet he is telling a story right now on some other forum about a crazy Kroat who tried to cheat on him with a false credit card and for a few francs too! ;)

Personally in this thread I am most impressed by JL who went from only 'nearby' to 'totally' plastered in only two minutes. I've always wanted to be able to do that that quickly! :surprise: :laugh:

[Dicke Bertha]

Always ends up like this.

:D Did everybody shower at least?
In your dreams dirty old Frenchman :)

[jlbetin]

There must be Liberté Egalité Fraternité! ;)


Mario

Second Cross Road on Right after LiarChirac Alley

Der WanderPoliceman

[General Staff]

Same punition but you must offer a Guiness.
Now JL, you know I've mentioned Absinthe here. But try Bushmills if you need something from this Isle.

Also, and you may not believe me here at all, but sheep is plural. The singular is shoop.;)

[Bloodstar]

What's the Problem with French accent Zagrebian man !!!! hummmm
It's ok for this time but I have an EYE on you:devious:

Der WanderFrenchHaveBestEnglishAccentIntheWorldBetterT hanThoseDamnBritish

LOL
I don't have anything against French accent at all...DerWanderModerator!

And who is studying Napoleon wars, me Der Wanderer, so France have admirer in me... peace. ;)


Mario

[jlbetin]

Ha, I bet he is telling a story right now on some other forum about a crazy Kroat who tried to cheat on him with a false credit card and for a few francs too! ;)

Personally in this thread I am most impressed by JL who went from only 'nearby' to 'totally' plastered in only two minutes. I've always wanted to be able to do that that quickly! :surprise: :laugh:

With number of Virtual beer I received from Mario and Gen Staff
Even the most solid of Swedish Drinker won't resist

Der WanderHips:nuts:

[Bloodstar]

Ha, I bet he is telling a story right now on some other forum about a crazy Kroat who tried to cheat on him with a false credit card and for a few francs too! ;)

Personally in this thread I am most impressed by JL who went from only 'nearby' to 'totally' plastered in only two minutes. I've always wanted to be able to do that that quickly! :surprise: :laugh:


LOL ! Just to catch Der Wander, I will take one of my own slivovitj, rakija, very good drink that I actually made from my own plums... excellent drink. Whiskey is not a close to this one! :devious:


Mario

[jlbetin]

So to return on a serious matter, we have to think a way to help matrix to sustain at its best TOAW, but how ? Have we a consumer power here ?

Matrix get help from TOAW comunity but what community can "request" from Matrix???

I just want to open a path here

Der WanderPowerToThePlayers:rifle:

[Dicke Bertha]

I think the best we can do is have a beer, a group hug, a shower together, some absint and slivovitj, take out and admire our guns, and keep behaving maturely. :o

[General Staff]

slivovitj
Slivovitj. Is this the dreaded Slivovitz of Balkan fame? I vaguely remember it from 10+ years ago now. And me an innocent young lad then. Someone said plum liquor and I thought how bad can that be?

Well he says- trembling violently remembering one of the worst hangovers ever- very. I had to struggle to remember the town but (I think) it was Poprad in Slovakia (the Tatras Mountains are nice) near the train station.

[Bloodstar]

Slivovitj. Is this the dreaded Slivovitz of Balkan fame? I vaguely remember it from 10+ years ago now. And me an innocent young lad then. Someone said plum liquor and I thought how bad can that be?

Well he says- trembling violently remembering one of the worst hangovers ever- very. I had to struggle to remember the town but (I think) it was Poprad in Slovakia (the Tatras Mountains are nice) near the train station.


Hmmm... There are many slivovitj - some are good but some are really bad. Mine is superb. But, one or two drink is enough because it's very strong. I also don't like weak drinks. That's why one or two is enough for blood circulation in the morning. My father use to give this drink to his business partners in Germany, all are very pleased with it. It is really good. But, yes I also have seen some really bad slivovitj.

BTW, when Clint Eastwood was acting in one movie (I think Dirty Dozen or maybe some other?) that was filmed in my hometown he loved to drink slivovitj hehe :D


Mario

[SgtRock]

Matrix Games has dedicated record of supporting its customers and a proven record for supporting our products years after the games been released. I am sure the majority of the gaming community understands this with of course the few noted exceptions listed above.

The gamers who have purchased TOAW3 can play there newly purchased game knowing that the Matrix-TOAW team will be supporting and improving the game very much as we done with Steel Panthers World At War.

I am pretty tried of the few people who think they know it all, :lier: telling (Matrix) what we spent to buy what, that Matrix done nothing, we are cheating the community along with a bunch of other junk. I always felt if you don't like what someone else is doing then do something better yourself.

Let me assure you that if you have purchased TOAW3 that the game will be supported and as always we will listen to the community feedback. Matrix Games has even more surprises in store for you in the near future.

Thank you once again for everyone support.

P.S. If you come to Origins 2006 we have some sneak peaks for you.

[Marmont]

Anyone knows how much the CD version is? I saw that one could order the cd version at NWS. Is that even possible? I was a bit confused, since how could NWS have the game in cd version when Matrix Games is the one who designed the game and they don't even have TOAW III in cd version yet? Anyone bought a cd copy from NWS yet? Is the cd version going to be released next week at matrix games?

[SgtRock]

Anyone knows how much the CD version is? I saw that one could order the cd version at NWS. Is that even possible? I was a bit confused, since how could NWS have the game in cd version when Matrix Games is the one who designed the game and they don't even have TOAW III in cd version yet? Anyone bought a cd copy from NWS yet? Is the cd version going to be released next week at matrix games?

NWS has an advance order in with Matrix. We will not have the games until mid to end of next week to ship out to our dealers.

David

[Okimaw]

Anyone knows how much the CD version is? I saw that one could order the cd version at NWS. Is that even possible? I was a bit confused, since how could NWS have the game in cd version when Matrix Games is the one who designed the game and they don't even have TOAW III in cd version yet? Anyone bought a cd copy from NWS yet? Is the cd version going to be released next week at matrix games? As a fellow canadian resident I'll advise you regardless of who you buy it from to make sure and pick USPS as your shipper as UPS likes to rip canadians off with exhorbitant "brokerage fees", all you pay when you go thr