Campaign for North Africa - Raver v Fast Heinz

[CyberRanger]

Raver and Fast Heinz ...

I noticed a recent ladder report where you two played this scenario through 86 turns with a Commonwealth OV.

I'm currently on turn 12 with Menschenfresser. My Italians are moving along fairly well, with Sidi Haneish captured and Fuka in my sights.

Can either of you comment on the general flow of your game together?

[Raver]

One way traffic would be my comment. After the initial Italian offensive, the axis (me) was pretty much going backwards for the rest of the game. I got pushed back west of tobruk where I managed to stabilise, but nothing I could do would dent his lines.

[CyberRanger]

One way traffic would be my comment. After the initial Italian offensive, the axis (me) was pretty much going backwards for the rest of the game. I got pushed back west of tobruk where I managed to stabilise, but nothing I could do would dent his lines.

In my game, the three "sudden death" objectives were secured around turn 5 so I cancelled the cease fire, giving the Italians a chance to push on. So far, with concentrated artillery, they are doing a decent job.

In your game, did the cease-fire go into effect?

(Raver ... thanks for any input .. sorry for bringing up old wounds!)

[fast Heinz]

After initail axis advance and cease fire allies cut it short. I think that Allies advanced so slowly that Axis had to travel too far to get into the fight..it appeared that they arrived at the front Red.
Allied arty pounded axis infantry mercilesly.

[JeremyMacDonald]

One way traffic would be my comment. After the initial Italian offensive, the axis (me) was pretty much going backwards for the rest of the game. I got pushed back west of tobruk where I managed to stabilise, but nothing I could do would dent his lines.
Well I know your a good player...I believe you lead the ladder here in fact. Anyway I am well on my way to loosing this as the Commonwealth so I will hand out what appears to me to be the trick to the scenario.

One of the things I noticed in this scenario that really caught me off guard is that it plays very much unlike any other TOAW scenario your likely to encounter. The big factor is a bit of a combo. First off keep in mind that the causalty ratio is way up from the default for this scenario. I think its set at 4 while most of us our pretty much used to the default ratio of 10. The next important factor is the scale. These are pretty much companies with artillery units in support. The key here is the seperate artillery pieces.

Now when the losses are maxed that normally more or less applies equally across the board to both sides...but it doesn't in any kind of combat where more or less only one side is taking damage. In particuler it does not apply to artillery since they are added to a battle and, baring counter battery fire, are not fired upon. Now with the damage ratio at 4 combat is 2 1/2 times more lethal then what one is used to. My bet is that you where trying to flank the Brits out of position or bust through the line and then try and exploit. Common tactics...par for the course in most scenarios. Its the wrong answer here. What you actually want to do is form 'Grand Batteries' ala Napoleon. Then approach the line. During your combat phases launch minimize assaults. Its generally does not matter that much whether its the Italians or Germans doing the probing though I suspect that thier are co-operation benifits to consider. Anyway the damage is not done by the attacking units but by the artillery massed in support of the attacking unit. One or two attacks should definitly throw the defender out of his entrenchments. With the really high recon rates of units and the massive damage the artillery is inflicting in this scenario as often as not the unit never even retreats its just evaporates. Just keep doing this to the British line. You should be able to generate losses at a much higher rate then the British can really cope with. Eventually the British will be out of enough pieces to hold the line and will retreat. Given some turns to catch up with him and considering that he is getting reinforcments at a fairly good clip...also as he retreats he will eventually get to the Quatara Depression and the line he has to defend gets shorter. All this means that he will eventually be able to put up a new line. When that happens repeat the above until his armies are once again too weak to hold the line and press forward.

Couple of points on this. Armour is close to immune to artillery so avoid them and go for the infantry as should co-operate by dieing a lot. Secondly note that I am here saying the Germans should do this...but it applies to both sides. Who ever has the artillery advantage should be doing this. So when the Italian offencive peters out its the British that should be probing the Italians and destroying them with artillery (and especially the Royal Navy...their punch is just awsome). Finally don't neglect the fact that the units have extremely high recon. Often thats the best way of destroying pesky armour units that are immune to artillery...force them to retreat through ZOCs they will pay...especially since the artillery does often manage to kill all the soft skinned recon units so the armour tends to be short on recon compared to the units around them. Basically shave the enemy armour formations of recon and then make them pay with your own high recon.

Now remember that I am not advocating launching only one attack per combat phase with all the artillery...there is a lot of powerful artillery and using everything against just one hex is over kill it will take getting used to but you should eventually work out the optimium fit between the number of artillery to support varous attacks. Its important to try and get as many as can be pulled off with the artillery available since tyhe goal is to simply attrition the enemy in front of you until he can no longer manage to find the troops to hold the line and retreats. Obvously if the defenders to your front have all evaped or retreated during your turn then one should utilize ones trusty break through instincts and blow through the gap but in general here one does not use the panzers to make the gaps. The artillery does that and then the panzers advance. Your also likely to find that your opponent has a line many hexs deep. The defender should not be stacking units if it can be avoided as more units in a hex just means more to die when the artillery hits so usually the best option is to have the line many hexs deep.

A final note...counterbattery fire in theis scenario is very much a factor. I have a bunch of artillery units wandering around with no guns in them but all the rest of the equipment. Basically victems of counter battery fire where all their guns have been destroyed but the rest of the unit more or less unharmed. Hence one has to be a little careful where one sites their own defencive artillery as counter battery fire is not just a nuisence in this scenario...its lethal.

[CyberRanger]

What you actually want to do is form 'Grand Batteries' ala Napoleon. Then approach the line. During your combat phases launch minimize assaults.

Exactly! That has been my approach after the first turn exploits. Since then, I pick a stretch of 3 or 4 hexes where almost all my artillery can support the attack. Then I'll launch limited-min attacks with small units, getting 5 or 6 pounding artillery attacks until the Commonwealth units simply evaporate.

Here's a pick of an attack I'm about to launch. The first bombardment normally un-digs the infantry and after that it's a simple repeat pounding. I'm not sure how "realistic" that is ... but it works very well!

[CyberRanger]

..it appeared that they arrived at the front Red.
Allied arty pounded axis infantry mercilesly.

Yes, the Axis reinforcements have a LONG way to make it to the front. By the time they arrive, the are red and reduced some in strength due to that. So far, I've been just throwing them into the fray. The Axis supply situation is so bad at the front that the units would have to sit for ... I don't know ... 6 turns or so ... to get back to green.

[JeremyMacDonald]

Yes, the Axis reinforcements have a LONG way to make it to the front. By the time they arrive, the are red and reduced some in strength due to that. So far, I've been just throwing them into the fray. The Axis supply situation is so bad at the front that the units would have to sit for ... I don't know ... 6 turns or so ... to get back to green.
But since you can use only a small number of units to do the actual attacking while the vast majority don't do much during the turn you should find that they eventually recover nicely. Try rotating units through the front. you should be able to get it down to something of a schedual where fresh units take over the role of attacking while others rest up. It may never work out perfectly but you can probably get it to work fairly effectivly. You want to do this because even the probers do have a bad habit of dieing and units in the red have this much worse then others.

However in your game I am given to understand that your advancing with the Italians...you will not likely be able to keep that up...the artillery advantage should be shifting to the British and when it does you will have to wait for Rommel to show up before the advantage switches again.

[CyberRanger]

However in your game I am given to understand that your advancing with the Italians...you will not likely be able to keep that up...the artillery advantage should be shifting to the British and when it does you will have to wait for Rommel to show up before the advantage switches again.

I've noticed my artillery starting to fail more commo checks and being less effective because of supply. I imagine I may have to rest those Italians soon ... still need to be aware of the possiblity of "sudden death" before turn 25 if things should head south.

The other thing for me is ... I don't want the Italians to go too far. I'd like some of the historical back and forth to occur it possible.

[Menschenfresser]

Being totally honest, I can't see much hope left for any kind of attack on turn 25. My reinforcements have been chewed up. I can't see any hope of even stopping the Italians if they want to keep going. I have no reserve left except those turns with reinforcements show up, and by the time they get to line, I have to throw them right into the fray, red.

The whole story with the opening of this scenario is definitely the ceasefire. As I told WP, the brits have a lot of units, on the coast, just east of the final ceasefire town. When the ceasefire is cancelled, the immediate strategy for the Brits would be to pull back a little farther east, lengthening the Italian supply line while shortening theirs. But it can't be done given that these units along the coast are frozen for some turns to come. Moving back sacrifices these units hands down. I defended long enough for one of the three stacks to unstick, but the rest died where they camped, stubborn and unwilling to move. I chose to throw up a defense hoping I could hold until they joined the fray. Big mistake. I lost everything and ended up having to pull back some anyway.

With each turn, huge sections of my line have just vanished. Evapped from artillery fire, if previous posts are accurate.

In the south, I have the advantage, but without artillery support, I take a pounding when trying to push this advantage. Just a dent comes at a steep price.

I moved up my battleship and pounded his arty forming the coastal steamroller. A tactic that was really effective, taking 10%+ from each stack with each attack, but alas the turn ended unexpectedly and he sunk it the next turn.

My line is so bad at this point, I'm using HQ units. I have nothing else. Somewhere along the line my airforce, the pathetic thing it was, evapped.

I'm afraid, WP is going to break into the open soon and surround what little I have left at the front. I won't have enough to throw up a solid line after that. Even if the Italians are bare bones, their numbers can thrash the few full strength reinforcements I'll get over the next dozen turns.

:(

[Menschenfresser]

However in your game I am given to understand that your advancing with the Italians...you will not likely be able to keep that up...the artillery advantage should be shifting to the British and when it does you will have to wait for Rommel to show up before the advantage switches again

Yes, I have quite a few arty units hanging around, but few that aren't battered. Several of them have come under direct attack and several were lost. I see far more arty on the other side of the line than on mine. And I have a feeling that in the next turn, my last few pieces will be hauling ass back to Egypt having nothing left to defend. Half of my arty pieces belong to divisions that don't even exist anymore. If that was my one ace for stopping the Italians, it's squandered.

[CyberRanger]

The whole story with the opening of this scenario is definitely the ceasefire. As I told WP, the brits have a lot of units, on the coast, just east of the final ceasefire town. When the ceasefire is cancelled, the immediate strategy for the Brits would be to pull back a little farther east, lengthening the Italian supply line while shortening theirs. But it can't be done given that these units along the coast are frozen for some turns to come.

I think there needs to be a rule that if the Italians cancel the cease-fire, all Commonwealth units in reserve status go mobile. That really was the key to letting me piecemeal the Commonwealth.


I'm afraid, WP is going to break into the open soon and surround what little I have left at the front. I won't have enough to throw up a solid line after that. Even if the Italians are bare bones, their numbers can thrash the few full strength reinforcements I'll get over the next dozen turns. :(

Yes, you won't like what you see with turn 13. The artillery steamroller was devasting on the north flank. I evap'ed units along 6 hexes in a row. Huge hole .. with the Commonwealth units below it in danger of encirclement.

[JeremyMacDonald]

Yes, I have quite a few arty units hanging around, but few that aren't battered. Several of them have come under direct attack and several were lost. I see far more arty on the other side of the line than on mine. And I have a feeling that in the next turn, my last few pieces will be hauling ass back to Egypt having nothing left to defend. Half of my arty pieces belong to divisions that don't even exist anymore. If that was my one ace for stopping the Italians, it's squandered.
Try pulling back constantly. You do have a fair amount of ground to give. Given time your army should recover and again with time you should out number the Italians in the critical artillery department. Now I am not sure how bad your army is or how much ground you have to give before you get to Alexandria but do what you can.

[Menschenfresser]

Yes, you won't like what you see with turn 13. The artillery steamroller was devasting on the north flank. I evap'ed units along 6 hexes in a row. Huge hole .. with the Commonwealth units below it in danger of encirclement.

Maybe the whole flaw here is the loss setting Jeremy detailed with it being 4 rather than 10. With the relatively few units given to either side over the course of a long scenario, I would think units should be able to last more than one turn on the front without evapping. Granted at this point, I'm not even sure my artillery is providing support given coop levels, so that could make a huge difference toward stabilization. Dunno. I can only see the cease fire being needed, with the scenario as is, if the Italians just completely fail on turn one and the Brits are able to salvage most of their front line. How often has that happened?

To my mind, the ceasefire canel is for the Axis player who wants to put a little more room between himself and the western end of the map...not to conquer Egypt.

While I'm reluctant to suggest that all Allied reinforcements which start on map be released with the canelling of the ceasefire, I do think some of them should be. At very least, those frozen near the front. The reason why I'm reluctant is that if all are released it may be near impossible for the Italians to hold the ceasefire towns until turn 25 which would result in an allied victory. Can't verify that, but it's possible.

I also expect to lose my unit superiority in the south over the next few turns.

Oh and as a side note, I just reread the change file for the scenario and in 1.04, the attrition divider was changed from 20 to 4. I wonder what sparked this radical change. I can't say that 20 would not be a problem in the other direction, but I think 4 is a bit much on the bloody end of the scale. Opinions?

And yes, WP, I just glanced at the next turn. F**k if I know what to do. I guess all that's left is to see how many miles to the gallon these trucks get driving full speed in reverse. :) Thank god for the recon values in this game. I'm starting to think more scenarios shouldn't be so sticky.

EDIT:
Try pulling back constantly. You do have a fair amount of ground to give. Given time your army should recover and again with time you should out number the Italians in the critical artillery department. Now I am not sure how bad your army is or how much ground you have to give before you get to Alexandria but do what you can.

Yea, after losing the frozen stacks I was trying to protect, I should have cut my losses and run. That's a definite case of losing track of what you are trying to do and forgetting why you are defending the ground you are defending. At that point, I could have recovered fairly easily. I'll post a looksie tonight after work at the turn 13 opener. You'll probably agree, there's not much chance of that now. Least not before the gates of Alexandria...

[CyberRanger]

To my mind, the ceasefire cancel is for the Axis player who wants to put a little more room between himself and the western end of the map...not to conquer Egypt.


In the designer notes, the "sudden death" is designed to force the Italians to attack so they are then more vulnerable to British counter-attack. The cease-fire is then designed to let the Italians not die too sudden a death as the British prepare to counter-attack, i.e. O'Conner's Raid (which ended up totally routing the Italians) starting on turn 25.

W.G.F. Jackson in "The Battle for North Africa 1940-43" describes ... "Graziani's [the Italian commander] reluctant invasion of Egypt" and how he "was more intent at digging in at Sidi Barrani than advancing on Cairo." Although the Italian high command may have envisioned a grand attack against Egypt, Graziani did not have the mantle for the job.

For gamers, I think the answer is to discuss before the game starts how to handle the cease-fire. Should the Axis player be allowed to cancel the cease-fire and start a long scenario on a non-historical path or should the "cancel cease-fire TO" be off-limits. Making it off-limits would help create more of the historical ebb and flow of the campaign.

For me, when I start a 200+ turn game, I'd rather see more of the historical situation. What is a campaign for North Africa without Rommel and Montgomery battling for Tobruk?

[CyberRanger]

To my mind, the ceasefire canel is for the Axis player who wants to put a little more room between himself and the western end of the map...not to conquer Egypt.


So ... yes, I agree! The Italians shouldn't be able to conquer Egypt. In our game, I'm not sure they really could but I'll probably start slowing them down to try to get back to more of the historical beginning of the campaign.

[JeremyMacDonald]

So ... yes, I agree! The Italians shouldn't be able to conquer Egypt. In our game, I'm not sure they really could but I'll probably start slowing them down to try to get back to more of the historical beginning of the campaign.

Well I still have to wonder if they are not going to start to run out of steam on their own accord. Its only turn 13 and British reinforcments are pretty heavy during these turns.

[CyberRanger]

Well I still have to wonder if they are not going to start to run out of steam on their own accord. Its only turn 13 and British reinforcments are pretty heavy during these turns.

That could be very true. I know that although I'm ripping through the Commonwealth lines, the loss penality is even at around 13 for each side. I've been sort of ignoring it because I figure it doesn't mean much in a scenario this long. Also, the Axis don't receive any replacements (to speak of) until turn 33 or so while the Commonwealth replacement situation is a little better. So maybe that helps explain why the Commonwealth lose penality isn't higher.


Menschenfresser and I have agreed to a modified cease-fire. The Italians can attack as far as column 219 (two hexes east of El Alamein). If they get that far before turn 25, they halt there and I can't attack again until turn 26 unless I'm attacked. Any Commonwealth units still west of that line can be attacked.

Also, if the Italians take El Alamein and I feel like they can push on, we are going to branch the game into two games - the real one using our "cease-fire" option and another one just to see how far the Italians can go. With the 6th Aussie Div activating on turn 17, I don't think it will be that far!

[JeremyMacDonald]

That could be very true. I know that although I'm ripping through the Commonwealth lines, the loss penality is even at around 13 for each side. I've been sort of ignoring it because I figure it doesn't mean much in a scenario this long. Also, the Axis don't receive any replacements (to speak of) until turn 33 or so while the Commonwealth replacement situation is a little better. So maybe that helps explain why the Commonwealth lose penality isn't higher.


Menschenfresser and I have agreed to a modified cease-fire. The Italians can attack as far as column 219 (two hexes east of El Alamein). If they get that far before turn 25, they halt there and I can't attack again until turn 26 unless I'm attacked. Any Commonwealth units still west of that line can be attacked.

Also, if the Italians take El Alamein and I feel like they can push on, we are going to branch the game into two games - the real one using our "cease-fire" option and another one just to see how far the Italians can go. With the 6th Aussie Div activating on turn 17, I don't think it will be that far!
If the Italians are still going after getting to El Alamein in force I suggest the Commonwealth player concede.

[fast Heinz]

In Raver and my game....Italians advanced, British ran, the ceasefire happened. Then British counterattacked with O'Conners raid and pushed Italians back, using arty as described above, and concentrated Armour. Lines stabilized and as Brits were getting more units (SA division) and Axis were not, Axis surrendered.

[Bob Cross]

While I'm reluctant to suggest that all Allied reinforcements which start on map be released with the canelling of the ceasefire, I do think some of them should be. At very least, those frozen near the front. The reason why I'm reluctant is that if all are released it may be near impossible for the Italians to hold the ceasefire towns until turn 25 which would result in an allied victory. Can't verify that, but it's possible...

I suppose that could be done, at least for the 70th Inf Div and the 4th Ind Div. I feel the 22nd Guard Bde formation was nothing more than a garrision for Mersa Matruh at this point, and not ready for mobile operations. It's only three units, anyway.

Of course, at this point, something else will have to be jettisoned to do it. There's only so many events, as we all know. But it's a good idea that probably warrants doing that.

I'm a bit suprised it's necessary since Mersa Matruh is pretty far in the rear to be reached by only turn seven, but apparently it's possible. I would have thought that all that armor the Commonwealth starts with would be tough enough to keep the Italians away long enough for those formations to be released. But the scenario turns on small margins so all sorts of results are possible. Some Axis players never get to Sidi Barrani.

[Bob Cross]

Well I still have to wonder if they are not going to start to run out of steam on their own accord. Its only turn 13 and British reinforcments are pretty heavy during these turns.

I'll be suprised if the Italians don't grind to a halt, but I guess it depends somewhat on how large a loss occured back at Mersa Matruh. Still, most of that stuff will come back and the Commonwealth will be pouring in other fresh green-lighted forces vs the red-lighted Italians. The Italians are in a terrible supply situation and none of their units reconstitute. Their reinforcements must come via road vs. Commonwealth units that come via rail. And the further he goes, the closer the Commonwealth reinforcements/reconstitutions are to the front, and the farther his are.

Another factor is the Italian need to safeguard those three trigger hexes in his rear. The Commonwealth player should have at least some threat to them, to keep the Italian player concerned about them. Some of that threat can come via his sea cap, supported by the fleet.

Used correctly, the fleet should be invulnerable. The Axis has 0% Theater Recon. So the only way he can see Commonwealth units is either to move adjacent to them, or to induce the ones with artillery capability into defensive artillery support. So if the fleet is kept away from the coast hexes, the land-bound Italians can't move adjacent. And if it is kept out of range of Commonwealth units it can't be induced to provide support.

(There is a unexpected exception to the above that I've had to fix in the coming next version, but I won't be revealing it here).

[Menschenfresser]

I'm a bit suprised it's necessary since Mersa Matruh is pretty far in the rear to be reached by only turn seven, but apparently it's possible.

If you mean the armor that starts adjacent to the Italians on turn one, it was all gone. I opened turn one and found only two units left from the front line...the last two down at its southern end. I never had even a vague chance to defend the ceasefire towns what with about four or five units mobile in the rear.

Maybe the temporary solution would be to make the ceasefire manditory if there aren't other event slots open.

[CyberRanger]

If you mean the armor that starts adjacent to the Italians on turn one, it was all gone. I opened turn one and found only two units left from the front line...the last two down at its southern end. I never had even a vague chance to defend the ceasefire towns what with about four or five units mobile in the rear.

Maybe the temporary solution would be to make the ceasefire manditory if there aren't other event slots open.

The attached image shows the end of turn 1 from the Axis perspective. With careful over-run attacks, followed by concentrated artillery barrages, the Commonwealth front line ceased to exist.

Of course, if the Axis player attempts a flanking movement instead, the results would be totally different. This must be very frustrating to designers! How to model history when players will play very differently!!

I'd agree with Menschenfresser .... the opening months were a side-show to the entire campaign. I'd make the cease-fire mandantory or at least warn players that to cancel it could dramatically vary the game from history.

P.S. Bob .... thanks for all your work. I love these scenarios.

[Bob Cross]

The attached image shows the end of turn 1 from the Axis perspective. With careful over-run attacks, followed by concentrated artillery barrages, the Commonwealth front line ceased to exist.

Of course, if the Axis player attempts a flanking movement instead, the results would be totally different. This must be very frustrating to designers! How to model history when players will play very differently!!

I'd agree with Menschenfresser .... the opening months were a side-show to the entire campaign. I'd make the cease-fire mandantory or at least warn players that to cancel it could dramatically vary the game from history.

P.S. Bob .... thanks for all your work. I love these scenarios.

Thanks for your comments, but your results are just what were expected. I was refering to the armor back at "Charing Cross" and the two RTR battalions received as reinforcements on turn 2.

Historically, of course, there was no formal ceasefire. I've included it because many Axis players couldn't hold on to the trigger hexes to turn 25, causing the scenario to end early. It gives them a safe option, and somewhat models what happened unofficially. But an Axis player wanting a risk/reward option should be allowed to press on. I just need to be sure there is enough risk in that option. And I think releasing those two formations around Mersa Matruh might clear that up. There is a bit of a problem in that the Axis player could possibly delay taking Sidi Barraini until Mersa Matruh was cut off, thereby short-circuiting the change. It may need a few other adjustments.

It's sort of like its balanced on a knife edge. If I adjust one way, the Axis player can't take Sidi Barrani. And if I adjust it the other, the Commonwealth player can't hold Mersa Matruh. Add in the full range of player skills and it becomes almost impossible to stabilize.