View Full Version : Eastern Crusade - Opinions, please.
Gents, I'd like to pick your brains for a moment. I've only played 1 game of an EC through, and I'd like some input!
In an EC game, if Russia falls in the first year (prior to the West declaring war), are the Allies pretty much done? Or can they still hold/win?
What do you think of their (western allies) chances if France falls by Sept '40?
I'd like to get as many opinions and options as possible...
How can Germany hope to take out the UK? Is it possible, with a competent Allied opponent? What is there left to do/try?
Can the US and UK, if they are indeed safe, hope to do anything to an Axis that has control of the continent, Turkey, and is adjacent to El Alamein to the west of the Canal, and is approaching Tel Aviv in the east?
My thoughts are that the Eastern Crusade hypothetical needs to be completely broken out of EA, and made into its own scenario. This is from the initial choice of extending the Maginot, scenario start date, et cetera, and onward. When choosing to play this type of game, there are just too many things that do not mesh properly with the basic semi-historical assumptions, and reasonably derived paths of non-EC games.
By taking this approach, both games would be much better.
Oh - I completely agree - I've been hassling Mark about that very idea for ages now. (Hmmm - since Lou started his EC version?)
I ask the above as I am playing a game against Francis, and we're on turn sixty-something, and I've got Russia, Turkey, France, etc, but he'd like to continue on and see what kind of damage he can do once all the US reinforcements come in, see what I can do to the island, etc.
And as I'm an 'EC Virgin', I'm just looking for a little input from those that have the experience behind them.
Mark Stevens
07 Apr 06, 22:17
My personal opinion is that your opponent is done for and would be better employed using his gaming time to try again (or start another scenario!)
Since you've done so well, you might like to try a 'Sealion'?
How on earth did you beat the USSR and France in one year? Or have I misread it?
Breaking out the scenarios, I think too much would be lost from both. How do you factor in the east front after June 41 for the ETO? Fixed events kill part of the joy of the game.
Away around when the US stands alone, would be an end game event when Victory Points reach XXX for the Germans. Forcing the US into combat, rather than standing in the US waiting for next year. Would have to count up the points, but west of Moscow/Stalingrad, all of the Med Coast except Spain. Ireland, the South and East Coast of UK, plus Africa south of and Asia east of Suez. Might need more than one (3?) event if Sweden joins axis. Maybe force Germany to invade swede if cannot get the points any other way.
Us would still lose
Thought is out there.
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Part of the problem with the pace of the game is that supply level is more or less constant, regardless of the games progress. Barbarossa is always a bonus. But there was no possible supply bonus in 1940 after pairs fell. Yes, there was an ability to attack, but the stockpile bonus provided in the scenario was not there.
Granted that stockpile bonus represents more than just supply.
There should be no Barbarossa bonus for 1 year after Paris falls, Could be less I suppose but not less than 9 months.
Romania oilfields are part of the initial German supply, Its loss in late 44, by some sources was of zero importance to the Germans. Events could make it less important each year and German production expands. Hungary was important to the end.
Events could be set up to cut the German supply by a fixed level after each victory over major or minor powers, and restore it with a ranged event.
Other events could be set up where both SU and GB surrender, the US if it continues to fight, is provided theater options to divert manpower to war production, slowing armed forces expansion. Dummy counters in a holding area, troops only, equal to corps strength, with the highest replacement priority, could increase US production by 2% or more and supply by 1or 2, 9 months after the fact and every 9 months thereafter
There could be 2 or more of these options.
What the Germans could do is not addressed. But note they would not be standing still
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And the above is just the surface issues for changing supply.
What is really needed is a Variable linked to supply. It would consume at least 80 and maybe 150 events, but supply would come to mean something.
At one time I looked at replacing the variable value with an event chain linked to London (1-3 turns), Suez (4-13 turns), Moscow (4-10 turns), or Pearl Harbor as it happened. Used the events saved for the attempt to link supply to the variable, but did not have enough events. Not totally unhappy with the results in the test scenario.
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Whenever Matrix does their thing, there should be a General Mud. Two consecutive storm events on the same turn changes different percentages of terrain types to Mud - 0% for sand, 80% croplands, floods marshes, and so on. Try that now, the results are not there.
Might be nice to have the ability to divide the map in the design stage into theaters, so supply and other items can be effected by areas
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Not sure this is all worth 2 cents and would like to do more, but out of time. Maybe next month
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Have to agree with the collective wisdom that a dedicated EC game would be nice to have. It always feels slightly contrived when you go the EC route in the current game.
I would say the allies are screwed as soon as russia falls ... as with the main EA game. I've played maybe 5 or 6 EC variants, and in the ones where russia fell, there was a long, slow grind through France, but it really did feel like nothing could change the outcome at that point.
I've also played games where the allies have fought on after France and Russia fell, and those were really quite boring. The US had enough power to get ashore, and could expand a beach head until the axis concentrated their land power in the region, and then there was a phase of slow destruction.
Just my thoughts/experiences.
Smike Mcloud
28 Apr 06, 11:38
I am in a situation when this is May 1940, and Russia fell. Allied declared war, and Americans started to arrive. My opponent wants to continue playing to see me storming France.
I am trying to understand if there is a real challenge to do that - breaking through Maginot line, or going through Switzerland...
Killorbekilled
11 Jul 06, 14:19
I'm the allies in a game in which my opponent used the Eastern C and he knocked out the USSR by turn 80 (i think). Now we fight a western battle - my brits americans and French all dug in across Italy and behind the extended Maginot.
So no, by no means is the fall of the USSR the end of the allies...
This is quite an interesing game as it's new and different.
Bdr.Mallette
11 Jul 06, 16:39
Okay...
Axis have the entire continent of Africa, USSR out, Turkey is his, Finland is his, Norway not entered, Sweden not in, Denmark not in,
Spain, France, Italy and everywhere else is totally Axis controlled with tons of German equipment all over the place.
I tried landing in Lisbon, took the airfield but was punished severely once his gang swarmed my Lisbon landing forces. US forces have just arrived...finally but I fear way too late or way too many mistakes by the Allies(me).
Should I start over??? I know the answer is yes but..... just can't give up.
Jamiam just totally murdered, slaughtered all my allied forces up until now and I fear it shall continue.... can't see a sea lion happening ('course that means it'll happen) but if I build up enough, wait for about 3-6 months.... can I overcome his supremacy...??????
if not...looking for a new match against somebody (i'll play allies again I guess...try try try) lol!
bdr.
Okay...
Axis have the entire continent of Africa, USSR out, Turkey is his, Finland is his, Norway not entered, Sweden not in, Denmark not in,
Spain, France, Italy and everywhere else is totally Axis controlled with tons of German equipment all over the place.
I tried landing in Lisbon, took the airfield but was punished severely once his gang swarmed my Lisbon landing forces. US forces have just arrived...finally but I fear way too late or way too many mistakes by the Allies(me).
Should I start over??? I know the answer is yes but..... just can't give up.
Jamiam just totally murdered, slaughtered all my allied forces up until now and I fear it shall continue.... can't see a sea lion happening ('course that means it'll happen) but if I build up enough, wait for about 3-6 months.... can I overcome his supremacy...??????
if not...looking for a new match against somebody (i'll play allies again I guess...try try try) lol!
bdr.
He overstates things a wee bit. It's true that he can't get on his feet in Iberia, but I don't own ALL of Africa. He still has the Horn, and Cape Horn. I guess that's two horns and a cape he's been left with. Sounds like a wounded bullfighter...:devious:
With all of the new event slots available in TOAW3, couldnt both the EC and historical options be fleshed out?
With all of the new event slots available in TOAW3, couldnt both the EC and historical options be fleshed out?
I absolutely agree.
Mark Stevens
14 Jul 06, 20:27
Still awaiting my copy!
Still awaiting my copy!
Me, too. Don't feel bad. The French have received theirs, and the Hungarians theirs, at least the one that lives a few hours south of me in San Juan Capistrano. Mine's still missing. If it wasn't for the fact that I still have my beta copy, I'd...:freak: :mad: :blab: :cry:
viridomaros
15 Jul 06, 04:36
The us governement always gives priority to foreigners :laugh:
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