Update Please!

[pad152]

Update Please!

It's almost April, the Distant Gun web site hasn't been update sense early feb.

[Don Maddox]

I'll see if I can get us an update.

[Jim Cobb]

Two new build within the last week.

[Bullethead]

That rhythmic squishing sound you hear is me drumming my fingers, waiting for some new word. The sound started out as a rattle, but I've long since worn off my fingernails and then my skin, so now it's bloody pulp hitting the desktop. It looks, however, like it'll soon become a rattle again, when I get down to the bone.

[pad152]

Two new build within the last week.

I have no idea what that means:confused:

In Janaury I heared the game was just about complete, then in Feb a bunch of new stuff was added (the campaign system?). Is the game still in development (more stuff being added) or compete and in final testing tweak phase!

[Jim Cobb]

Norm is really taking to the new graphics engine; he's probably tweaking that. Also, I believe the campaign game is a relatively new factor.

[Bullethead]

Norm is really taking to the new graphics engine; he's probably tweaking that. Also, I believe the campaign game is a relatively new factor.

Hmm, sounds like they've sent you 2 new builds you ain't even looked at much. Tell you what. As a special favor to an ol' CF24 bud, I'll lighten your workload. You just send them on over to me and I'll tell you what they're like, and then you can write another column about them :).

But send them on CD cuz my dial-up still uses 2 cans and a piece of string :(

[NormKoger]

Hello guys,

We're still a few weeks off. As I put it in the RJW society mailing list a few days ago, we're at the point in the project where it's traditional to predict release in "about two weeks". Take that with a grain of salt. We are under no pressure to release to a deadline, so it won't go out 'til it's ready. The campaign game is being every bit the challenge that I expected, and then some. Only in the last few days has the battle spawning and recovery really been working the way it was designed. Today was spent finishing up the code that handles the Japanese merchant fleet. Tomorrow morning will be spent on test, followed by a start on the final coding for the event engine. TOAW players will know what that is all about. Once the event engine is final, all that remains is the final coding on the programmed opponent and a few days full up test on the campaign.

Some interesting things have happened on the tactical side as well. Late last week I figured out a way to decrease the memory requirements of the game while substantially increasing frame rates. Even with all the detail set all the way up and 4x anti-alias, 1600x1200 I'm staying above 30fps in Tsushima now on my 3GHz P4 / nVidia 6800 development machine. In smaller scenarios (Ulsan), my frame rate is currently refresh rate limited (I play with vsynch on).

I will try to put together some kind of "official" update tomorrow.

Norm

[pad152]

Thanks for the update!

Nice to know your development rig is a 3GHz P4 / nVidia 6800 video, I just ordered a Geforce 6800 GS card for my P4 3Ghz machine earlier in the week. :D

[Jim Cobb]

Still the jolly joker - BH, that is.

[Bloodstar]

Thanks for the update!

Nice to know your development rig is a 3GHz P4 / nVidia 6800 video, I just ordered a Geforce 6800 GS card for my P4 3Ghz machine earlier in the week. :D

Ah, I have only 6600GT :rolleyes: but maybe I will soon get better if there is a need for that. Pentium 3.0 Ghz is great of course.

[ETF]

Any new info gus?

Are we going to seen this fine product this Spring or will it be summer??

Thanks!!

[Jim Cobb]

Any new info gus?

Are we going to seen this fine product this Spring or will it be summer??

Thanks!!

The world wonders...

[Bloodstar]

The world wonders...

The 100% "will buy" list by me is like this:

Distant Guns
TOAW Matrix Edition
Heroes of Might & Magic 5
Dominions 3 (by Shrapnel)
Rig & Roll (you wouldn't believe it, truck simulation :p, but great by 1C Company / Softlab NSK)

and some others maybe (Officers, Oblivion, and some others that are still in development...)

What is yours?


Mario


Some other great games: Space Rangers 2, WORLD IN CONFLICT (RTS, MASSIVE ENT.)
DEFCON (from developers of Uplink), Top Spin 2 (Xbox 360 tennis), Faces of War, Jagged Alliance 3D, Armed Assualt (from developers of Operation Flashpoint), Close Combat: Red Phoenix, 1848, Brigade E5, Fall: Last Days of Gaia, 1933, Midway Naval Battles (renamed I think) etc...

[Rhetor]

I am reading Massie's "Castles of Steel". The Hochseeflotte has just slipped through the Grand Fleet's destroyers. Can't wait to replay it on "Distant Guns 2 - The Great War at Sea" :)

Anyway, Easter Greetings Everyone!

[Bloodstar]

I am reading Massie's "Castles of Steel". The Hochseeflotte has just slipped through the Grand Fleet's destroyers. Can't wait to replay it on "Distant Guns 2 - The Great War at Sea" :)

Anyway, Easter Greetings Everyone!


Massie's book is great but have same weak side like for instance Chandler's work on Napoleon - some parts are really boring...

But, when he describes a real naval battle, book is a real treat - you can almost smell a powder - good atmosphere...

Happy Easter to you as well!


Mario

[ETF]

Can we have a bone please to chew on??

[mbv]

Yup its a month since the last update, we need some more screenies and facts to mull over - oh and a release date would be nice :laugh:

[ETF]

Yes how about a season? Summer release or no? :whist:

[Bullethead]

Yes how about a season? Summer release or no? :whist:

Too bad folks got into such arguments with the developers a while back. I figure that's why they don't talk to us anymore. Assuming the game's still being built.....

[Jim Cobb]

Yes, I've got 2 new builds in the last week. I THINK there's 2 new scenarios.

[Dogbert]

I must say I am getting more and more frustrated by the lack of information... I have been looking forward to this game for a long time now, but these cryptic announcements and then total silence for months on end are sapping my enthusiasm. Still going to buy it of course, but I can see how many others might be soured on the whole deal. And yes, I know, they're working hard on the game, but still... they might set aside an hour each week for updating their website. I'm sure the added community buzz will make up for the 1 or 2 days of work they'd be putting into it.

[timetraveller]

I must say I am getting more and more frustrated by the lack of information... I have been looking forward to this game for a long time now, but these cryptic announcements and then total silence for months on end are sapping my enthusiasm. Still going to buy it of course, but I can see how many others might be soured on the whole deal. And yes, I know, they're working hard on the game, but still... they might set aside an hour each week for updating their website. I'm sure the added community buzz will make up for the 1 or 2 days of work they'd be putting into it.

Ditto to all of that.

In fact my overall gaming interest is waning. Been reading a ton of books lately. It started with naval titles, now I've been through some Civil War books.

This game is dragging out, dragging out. Enigma Rising Tide 2 has been cancelled. Summer is coming. Spring fever and all that. I wanna be outside. Screw the computer.

TT

[mbv]

Just got the latest update by email newsletter today. Still finishing off the campaign by the look of it, but plenty of optimization of the code has been done which will allow it to run well on older graphics cards, that alone sounds worth the wait. Also some new screenshots of the campaign and the Russians closing in on a British merchant ship. Cannot be far off release now surely.

[airBiscuit]

I must say I am getting more and more frustrated by the lack of information... I have been looking forward to this game for a long time now, but these cryptic announcements and then total silence for months on end are sapping my enthusiasm. Still going to buy it of course, but I can see how many others might be soured on the whole deal. And yes, I know, they're working hard on the game, but still... they might set aside an hour each week for updating their website. I'm sure the added community buzz will make up for the 1 or 2 days of work they'd be putting into it.

Well, if you've done any software development projects, you'll know that sometimes a week can go by and there's no progress to speak of whatsoever. If the developers gave you a blow by blow of every bug, every setback, every code refactoring they went through to give you a quality product, you'd probably be even more discouraged than you are now.

Building software is not like building a house. You can't count on constant progress in a predictable, time-honored fashion. The way is fraught with complexity and ever-growing, unexpected roadblocks that have to be hurdled.

I believe that the DG guys are truly almost there with the game, but it's that last 5% that can make or break the impression a game makes and takes five times as long as anything else to overcome.

Let's cut them some slack. They'll tell us when there is something worth talking about.

[Dogbert]

Actually, I do work in software development. I certainly realize that things take time, and as you say finding and correcting bugs is the most unpredictable of all.That doesn't stop me, as a gamer and future customer, from being a bit disappointed that they aren't giving us some sort of update. I'm not asking for detailed progress reports, just a lil information now and then. Also, I really want this project to succeed, and a web site that hasn't been updated for months, cluttered with bold announcements and links to pages that are basically still under construction sort of screams vaporware to me... even if I do know that the guys are hard at work behind the scenes. Maybe they could get some fans to do the website part if they have time to write a brief update now and then?
Maybe this all sounds a bit harsh, but it's certainly not intended that way... it truly looks to be an awesome game they are creating. I know once I get my hands on it, all this will be forgotten :laugh:

[mbv]

This was the main text of the newsletter without the 6 pictures........(EDIT - Now with pictures :D )

May 9, 2006
Greetings Storm Eagle Fans!

We are hard at work finishing up the Campaign game for our upcoming debut release “Distant Guns: The Russo-Japanese War 1904-05”! Our decision to delay the game until the Campaign game was complete is paying BIG dividends in the features area. We have implemented many upgrades to the Distant Guns engine that were originally slated for the phase two release (an upcoming, un-named titled) to be released late summer/fall 2006. Dramatic improvements in the memory footprint requirements, ship damage, viewing features like “Binocular View”, and especially the huge increase in frames per second (“fps”) render speed of the Distant Guns graphics engine!

What does that mean to you the gamer? It means more of the 3D graphics features are available to machines with older 3D graphics cards! It also means that if you have one of the most current video cards, you can experience even more than ever before. Imagine playing the latest installment of Distant Guns on a 1920 x 1200 pixel monitor.

Here are a few screen shots to wet your whistle with:

1. The boys from Vladivostok close in on a British merchant (Glasgow) off the coast of northern Japan, early winter evening, 1904. With no Japanese warships in sight, the merchant will have to surrender when the cruisers approach to within 5000 meters.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-2.jpg)


2. A binocular view of the Glasgow from the Russian cruiser Rossiya.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-3.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-3.jpg)


3. The view from the Glasgow. It won't be long now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-4.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-4.jpg)


4. Dusk lighting on the Russian cruisers as they close on Glasgow.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-5.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-5.jpg)


5. Immediately after Glasgow surrenders, a Japanese task force plots an attempt to intercept the Russians before they cause a great deal of trouble in Japanese shipping lanes. Almost all those flags around Japan are unarmed, unescorted merchant ships. The orange overlay shows where the shipping lanes run, and the routes change over time as ports change ownership on the mainland. You can toggle the overlay and merchant display using the f9 key. Merchants are not selectable, and you can not issue orders to them. Note that quiet a few of them are British, with a scattering of German and American ships. The Russians, of course, can see the shipping lanes but not the ships. They have to find them the hard way, hoping not to run into anything nasty along the way.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-6.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-6.jpg)


6. Another campaign game map overlay: showing territorial ownership in September of 1904. The Japanese navy has done a good job of protecting the shipping lanes, and their army has just entered Liaoyang. Note that with the shipping overlay turned off, you can't see all those merchants. They're still out there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/th_news-7.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Distant%20Guns/news-7.jpg)


Sincerely,
Norm Koger – Maestro

[Dogbert]

Wow, that looks amazing. Thank you very much for the update :cool:
I thought I was subscribed to the newsletter, but maybe it didn't go through.

[edit] Hmm, no... it tells me that I am already subscribed.. however I have never received any newsletters.

[airBiscuit]

Thanks for the update. :D

[ETF]

From the Wargamer Site........better news even yet !!!

Correction: The Distant Guns release has not been pushed back, it is actually quite the opposite. Instead, Storm Eagle has said that they managed to include content with the currently scheduled release of Distant Guns that was originally intended for a summer/fall release as an addon. Distant Guns is still very much "on track for a release very soon now that the campaign code is nearing completion," according to a source inside Storm Eagle.

[mbv]

Ummmm - I am not a source from within Storm Eagle, but I did get Wargamer to correct their news item because they had read the content of the email newsletter incorrectly and said the release was pushed back to Autumn, when in fact Storm Eagle never gave any release date, as you can read in the newsletter text I posted above.

[ETF]

So what does very soon mean? 30 days?

[rick614]

I hope the "binocular view" is just a term because that view would have to
be from several hundred feet in the air.

[NormKoger]

I hope the "binocular view" is just a term because that view would have to
be from several hundred feet in the air.
Yep, the currently implemented "binocular view" is modified a bit from what you would see through binoculars from the deck of a ship. The first pass on the logic was a straightforward 8x view from roughly mast top height. That worked, and it's actually still in the code (disabled), but it turned out that it was much more useful to modify things so that the view is from a fixed distance and elevation. If you want a peek at something 25 kilometers away, it's still not terribly close using typical real world binocular magnifications. The changes make the feature handy for a quick look at something distant when you press f5, with an immediate return to the original view as the key is released. In a further distinctly "un-binocular" fashion, all of the standard camera controls are still active, so you can move the binocular view around freely and still return to the pre-binocular camera orientation as soon at the f5 key is released. I may re-enable the original code too.

We're still chewing on the release date. It could be very soon indeed. I've been putting in 100+ hours per week for the last few weeks. My wife makes sure I get at least three hours sleep every other night :)

The campaign game is finally pretty much ready for prime time. Today was spent polishing the campaign interface, adding a bit of graphic appeal and increasing (or in some cases, limiting) the information available to players on the campaign map. Task force displays show a bit more than just a flag and status light now, if you're zoomed in far enough to allow room for the extra information. The white framed inset below is a full size version of one of the task force displays you can barely make out on this much reduced screen shot.

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/pr_images/may13_01.jpg

There should be some kind of announcement regarding the release date within the next week or so.

Norm

[mbv]

Great news at last on a fairly imminent release :) For the sim freaks amongst us it might be worth re-enabling that crowsnest view with the Binocs for a bit of added realism. I guess the Russians with their nice bright shiny yellow funnels should be visible even on 8X ? :laugh:

[Bullethead]

There should be some kind of announcement regarding the release date within the next week or so.

Thanks for giving us the word. The new stuff shown recently looks great and I'm very excited :).

[Bloodstar]

Thanks for giving us the word. The new stuff shown recently looks great and I'm very excited :).

Norm is really Maestro :) Mozart or Johann Sebastian Bach of computer games :smoke:

I play even now TOAW... Now imagine that my modern PC with 3.0 Ghz and 1 GB RAM, etc... still must churn out some turns in Fire in the East 5.0 for half an hour! :clown: I mean to calculate supply...

But, scenario is really great but it takes one to two weeks for me (hehe OKW and OKH) to prepare turn for all Eastern Front, many units to move... Yes, crazy as it sounds but it is quite a fun, and yes masochistic in a way... But, Norm didn't know what some guys will make out of his editor... Jesus ;)

He should have a car plates TOAW 5162 :clown: like guys who did Archon, they in fact have ARCHON on car plates (another legendary design).

Back to TOAW :nuts:


Mario

[ETF]

So Norm how is the Multiplayer support working out.
Can you have say more than on squadron commander per side?
How many players does it allow............

Looks awesome!!!

[Rhetor]

Bloodstar,

TOAW is really great. When I play, I play "The Great War" scenario. I had to use the editor and cut out all the Africa, Asia and, sad to say, Turkey, in order to get the supply calculation time below 2 minutes :-D Nevertheless, the game is fascinating. The Serbian front is sucking up more and more units from the others, while "Im Westen nichts neues" :-D

[Bloodstar]

Bloodstar,

TOAW is really great. When I play, I play "The Great War" scenario. I had to use the editor and cut out all the Africa, Asia and, sad to say, Turkey, in order to get the supply calculation time below 2 minutes :-D Nevertheless, the game is fascinating. The Serbian front is sucking up more and more units from the others, while "Im Westen nichts neues" :-D

Haha, great... Yes, "The Great War" is one of best scenarios ever made for TOAW...

Re Serbia: Try to capture road Belgrade - Nis for your better supply, my tactics is not to attack Montenegro, but to make attack on north across Danube, TOAW favors defenders very much in mountains so better leave Montenegro for later.



Mario

[NormKoger]

Hello guys,

The campaign game has been put to bed with the completion of the programmed opponent capability and a bit of final polish. The last couple of days have been devoted to the enhancement of visible ship damage - swapping out undamaged / damaged versions of ship model geometry. I should finish that up over the weekend.

Ship damage enhancement has consumed about 30% of my time over the last two weeks. It will be nice to put it behind me. Gamers familiar my history will know that I am never satisfied with a game, and I can tinker forever. Jim and I may yet decide to add a few more cool things before release. That said, all of the current game related pre-release checklist items will probably be complete on or about May 21, 2006.

[Bloodstar]

Hello guys,

The campaign game has been put to bed with the completion of the programmed opponent capability and a bit of final polish. The last couple of days have been devoted to the enhancement of visible ship damage - swapping out undamaged / damaged versions of ship model geometry. I should finish that up over the weekend.

Ship damage enhancement has consumed about 30% of my time over the last two weeks. It will be nice to put it behind me. Gamers familiar my history will know that I am never satisfied with a game, and I can tinker forever. Jim and I may yet decide to add a few more cool things before release. That said, all of the current game related pre-release checklist items will probably be complete on or about May 21, 2006.


Great news...! Where is that bottle of champagne...:)


Mario

[kkoovvoo]

*opens his wallet and makes sure that his credit card isn't expired*

[NormKoger]

Great news...! Where is that bottle of champagne...:)

No promises of an imminent release... We've been here once before, with everything finished and ready to go, and then folks talked us into adding features before the 1.0 release. My wish list is, as always, a mile long. But all the items on our "must do" list will be complete within the next day. Speaking of which, it's time for me to dip back into the code...

[mbv]

So clearly you need to stop tinkering and people on here need to stop debating how many rivets a torpedo destroyer had and we might actually get to play this game sometime this year. I'm all for historical accuracy, but I get the impression the development of this game is turning into a never ending hobby. It looks good to go now, I would be happy with the extra rivets in a patch, plus I am fedup of reading about the RJW (my pre-dreadnought library is huge now :laugh: ) and just want to immerse myself in the gameplay.

[Bloodstar]

No promises of an imminent release... We've been here once before, with everything finished and ready to go, and then folks talked us into adding features before the 1.0 release. My wish list is, as always, a mile long. But all the items on our "must do" list will be complete within the next day. Speaking of which, it's time for me to dip back into the code...

No problem at all Norm! Just take time how much you need. Premature release is double damage not happiness on any sort for developer or publisher.

Yes, fans are eager but I think that it's better to ship properly tested and working product than to have some problems...

After years of playing computer games maybe I am a little bit blase... I can wait. Anyway I have whole Russian front in front of me. :)


Mario

[Blackcloud6]

Are they still going to offer a 30 day trial version?

I've been burned too many times on computer games, I almost never buy one unless it has a demo to try.

[NormKoger]

...stop debating how many rivets a torpedo destroyer had and we might actually get to play this game sometime this year

Rivet counting can be fun. Tinkering with that kind of thing does not have a real impact on game development time. What really kills us is when something comes along that requires the addition of code and geometry (models). Even the smallest Direct3D related change tends to take at least a week.

Either way, the code was complete as of about 15 minutes ago when I finished up the addition of the last class of ship damage geometry. Unless something else comes along, all that's left now is test, debugging, and polish until we go out the door.

I'm going to go have a beer.

[mbv]

Congratulations! Have another beer :toast: :laugh:

[Crocky007]

Well done cant wait to get my hands on this beauty:D

[ETF]

Yes Excelletn work NORM!!

We don't need any new features!!!!


Cheers

What site Norm will we be able to Download your product. Your own site?

[Neutrino 123]

This site:
http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/html/se_downloads.html

Also, I agree about releasing the game soon. Features can easily be added in patches, and patches with features make it seem like the game is very well-supported too...;)

[ETF]

Thanks 123.............

It would make a grand June release ;)

[mbv]

A pity it wasn't released this weekend, we just missed the 101st anniversary of the Battle of Tsushima :D

[mbv]

Norm - how is the final testing going ? Can we have some news on the likely release of the trial game/demo, is a June release likely ??

[ETF]

I agree Norm any chance of a June Release or more like July/August?

[mbv]

I agree Norm any chance of a June Release................. or more like July/August?

Don't wish him any time extensions he will just start tinkering with rivets again :D

[ETF]

haha.........true very true.

But hey he can start playing with more features for the Jutland release and let Distant Guns have life! :laugh:

[Dogbert]

That "coming soon" banner mocks me! ;)

[Bloodstar]

haha.........true very true.

But hey he can start playing with more features for the Jutland release and let Distant Guns have life! :laugh:

I've just finished reading Massie's book , that part about Jutland battle. Good Lord!

That fool Beatty didn't waited for 4 powerful battleship and they got separated for 10 miles so he confronted Hipper with his battlecruisers and he lost 2 battlecruisers...

But, Germans also had one stupid move when they turned 180 to confront again whole English fleet after they suceessfuly retreated and they got a good beating then.


Mario

[KeithV]

...and an egomaniac to boot. He had at his disposal a squadron of four of the fastest and most powerful dreadnaughts in the world in addition to his prized (and overated) battlecruisers and he simply left them to chew on his wake while he "gloriously" dashed ahead. That dash cost the lives of alot of British seamen.

Read Andrew Gordon's The Rules of the Game if you really want to get a handle on Jutland. As good as Massie's book is (I have read it once and listened to it unabbridged on CD at least 5 times now...so I think its great!), Gordon's is far more detailed (as it should be). It is also highly readable. You can get paperback copies from Amazon merchants for about 20.00.

If you are interested in learning more about David Beatty, I also suggest "The King's Ships Were At Sea" by James Goldrick. It's a wee bit harder to find but used copies are out there. It only covers the war from August 1914 to Feb 1915 (i.e. Up until the Battle of Dogger Bank), but it is an excellent read.

Given all the talk on this forum about WWI....maybe our friends at Storm Eagle will give that some consideration when deciding the follow-up for Distant Guns? I know my fingers are crossed....

Come on Norm! Do a fava' for a playa! ;-D

Keith

[mbv]

If you look at Norm's last post in the "What other naval campaigns would you like to see" thread it is clear that WWI is already at the planning stage ;)

[Neutrino 123]

From what I understand, WWI will definitely be produced soon, but may not necessarily be the title that immediately follows Distant Guns RJW (though I would prefer that:) ).

[Bloodstar]

...and an egomaniac to boot. He had at his disposal a squadron of four of the fastest and most powerful dreadnaughts in the world in addition to his prized (and overated) battlecruisers and he simply left them to chew on his wake while he "gloriously" dashed ahead. That dash cost the lives of alot of British seamen.

Read Andrew Gordon's The Rules of the Game if you really want to get a handle on Jutland. As good as Massie's book is (I have read it once and listened to it unabbridged on CD at least 5 times now...so I think its great!), Gordon's is far more detailed (as it should be). It is also highly readable. You can get paperback copies from Amazon merchants for about 20.00.

If you are interested in learning more about David Beatty, I also suggest "The King's Ships Were At Sea" by James Goldrick. It's a wee bit harder to find but used copies are out there. It only covers the war from August 1914 to Feb 1915 (i.e. Up until the Battle of Dogger Bank), but it is an excellent read.

Given all the talk on this forum about WWI....maybe our friends at Storm Eagle will give that some consideration when deciding the follow-up for Distant Guns? I know my fingers are crossed....

Come on Norm! Do a fava' for a playa! ;-D

Keith


Keith,

Thanks for the suggestions for the books, I look them over... Well, anyway will buy TOAW 3 today and preorder Dominion3 by Shrapnel Games and buy this game when it is released. So it's shopping time. :cool:

About WW1 books, I like descriptions of the battles, ships etc... Massie is trying to be very smart sometime and is boring on some parts...
I liked his battles description though, didn't know that one gun turret when hit by heavy shell could kill almost 100 men inside of it :OHNO:

But, I like this era, no radar to spoil the fun, no powerful planes to attack ships, ahhh...


Mario

[Bullethead]

I've just finished reading Massie's book , that part about Jutland battle. Good Lord!

That fool Beatty didn't waited for 4 powerful battleship and they got separated for 10 miles so he confronted Hipper with his battlecruisers and he lost 2

I'm no big fan of Beatty, but to call him a fool for this is rather unfair IMHO. His job was chasing Hipper and he had to do it, and it wasn't all his fault the BBs weren't there when he needed them.

The BBs actually were late on both important turns in the battlecruiser phase of Jutland. They were late on the 1st turn so were far behind during the Run to the South, and then they were late on the 2nd turn so nearly got overwhelmed by Scheer at the start of the Run to the North. There are many reasons for this, and I suppose you could lay the ultimate blame on Beatty as the senior commander who had had the power to avoid these problems by pre-emptive action prior to Jutland. However, these particular mistakes during this part of the battle were not made by him, but were more of a result of prior failures on his part. However, the whole culture of the RN played a big part as well.

On the 1st turn to the south, the blame lies as follows:

Evan-Thomas, the BB CO: as the RN's current signals expert, he did everything by the book he'd helped write, which meant no maneuvers without signals from the flagship. This was how they did things in Jellicoe's fleet, where he normally served. He had absolutely zero command initiative, always waiting for orders even when his eyes told him waiting was tactically disastrous. Thus, he kept heading north despite knowing Beatty had turned south and was in high-speed pursuit of Hipper. He only turned when somebody aboard Lion finally realized he wasn't going to do so on his own and sent a signal at extreme visible range. Had this not happened, it's probable that E-T would have just kept on going and totally missed this part of the fight.

Beatty: Beatty didn't do things by the book, and his standing orders to the BCF called for everybody to follow the leader in pursuit without waiting for a signal. However, despite having lobbied long and hard to get E-T's BBs assigned to him permanently, he made no effort to brief E-T on his standing orders during the time between E-T's temporary assignment to him and Jutland. He didn't have to give such a signal to his other BC squadron, which E-T was subbing for, so it never occurred to him or anybody else to give one to E-T at this point until it was almost too late.

I don't think Beatty can be faulted for pressing on without E-T, however. If he'd waited, Hipper would have gotten clean away, and that would have meant failure of Beatty's mission. So he had to play the cards he was dealt at that point. War is Hell sometimes.

On the turn back to the north, the blame lies as follows:

Evan-Thomas: As above, plus the fact that by now he should have been expecting some need to maneuver without signals. Especially this time, when continuing on waiting for a signal would have obviously lead to his destruction, instead of just missing a fight.

Seymour, Beatty's signals officer. This time, Beatty did in fact order a signal for E-T to turn north, apparently having learned of E-T's need for this the 1st time. However, signals worked as follows: When the flag hoist was run up, it was just a warning that the move was coming soon. You didn't actually make the turn until the signal hoist was pulled down. Seymour failed to pull the flags down in a timely manner, so E-T kept on heading south towards his certain doom, waiting and waiting. Meanwhile, the BCs had turned and were running for their lives, and Scheer's BBs were getting closer and closer. Finally, the signal came down and E-T turned. In fairness to Seymour, he had many other signals going on at the same time, but this was the most important one and he muffed it.

Beatty: This wasn't Seymour's 1st big gaffe. At Dogger Bank, when Lion was disabled and dropped out of the fight, Beatty wanted his remaining ships to keep chasing Hipper. Seymour gave a confusing signal, however, which resulted in the other BCs all going after the crippled Blucher, allowing the rest of Hipper's fleet to escape. Beatty should have fired Seymour for that, but didn't.

To understand why things got to be this way, you really should read The Rules of the Game, by Andrew Gordon.

[Bloodstar]

snip

To understand why things got to be this way, you really should read The Rules of the Game, by Andrew Gordon.

OK, thanks... I am no expert and then I can withdraw calling Beatty fool, it was a little bit harsh.

It was all based on risk as it seems because Beatty's BC were very fast and maybe Beatty thought that he can easily withdraw as he could make 27 or 28 knots compared to German 25 I think...

Anyway just as I said I am amateur on this part of history so better to learn more ;)


Mario

[Bullethead]

...and an egomaniac to boot. He had at his disposal a squadron of four of the fastest and most powerful dreadnaughts in the world in addition to his prized (and overated) battlecruisers and he simply left them to chew on his wake while he "gloriously" dashed ahead. That dash cost the lives of alot of British seamen.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Besides mindset and communications problems I noted above to Bloodstar, Beatty and Hipper had tangled before, at Dogger Bank, without any Brit BCs blowing up. In fact, the Brits got rather the better of that engagement and might well have wiped Hipper out except for Seymour's bad signal. And this without any BB support. So when Beatty and Hipper met again at Jutland, I can't fault Beatty for going after him, with or without Evan-Thomas, based on prior experience. Besides, fighting through or at least chasing Hipper was Beatty's main job, because that would lead him eventually to Scheer, the finding of whom was his primary mission.

Beatty lost 1 ship early in the run, but that just evened the numerical odds and he still had bigger guns, plus Evan-Thomas would get in the game eventually. And no real reason to doubt he could take Hipper. Beatty didn't lose his 2nd ship until just before he found Scheer, and after E-T had made his presence felt and taken a lot of heat off Beatty. So it's not like Beatty ran all that way south on his own, or kept going despite losing 2 ships right off the bat. Besides, his mission required him to keep after Hipper anyway. So I think it's incorrect to accuse Beatty of being rash in the battlecruiser fight.

To me, the admiral at Jutland who deserves all the critcism for causing needless losses is Arbuthnot, CO of the 1st Cruiser Squadron of the old armored cruisers. These ships had been the "BCs" of the predreadnought era, but were hopelessly obsolete at Jutland, not only having the same weak armor as the BCs but much smaller guns and less speed. Despite this, Arbuthnot charged them out between the battlefleets just as they were joining battle, blinding the Brit fleet and masking them from the Germans with his smoke. This made him the only targets the Germans had for a while, and the ACs got mauled. Arbuthnot's flagship blew up, the next astern was so crippled as to sink after the battle, and a 3rd ship was maimed and eventually sunk with all hands during the night.

All told, Arbuthnot lost 3 large ships with nearly as many men as on the 2 Beatty lost. In the process, he disrupted the deployment of the Grand Fleet and the merger of it and the BCF, and he prevented the Brit main units from hurting the Germans at a critical juncture. And he did all this just to finish off a crippled German light cruiser, not in the performance of some important mission or even a mission his ships were in the fleet for.

I suppose Arbuthnot has escaped his richly deserved criticism primarily because his folly killed him, so he wasn't around for the great Beatty-Jellicoe feud. Besides, his ships were obsolete so losing them was no great loss to the fleet. However, the human cost was nearly as great as in Beatty's losses, and there is no conceivable reason it should have happened. Arbuthnot was just a nut-case.

That said, I'm still looking forward to meeting him in Hell. He'd no doubt be an interesting acquaintance :)

[Bloodstar]

That said, I'm still looking forward to meeting him in Hell. He'd no doubt be an interesting acquaintance :)

If you're good at tennis he will play against you LOL :clown: He played tennis one day before Jutland as I read or something like that with Mrs. Jellicoe :)


Mario

[KeithV]

...and I still stick by my assessment of him as a fool! ;-D

The fact that he stuck with his signals officer alone after the numerous mistakes he made in not one but two battles qualifies him for this assessment. Further, between that and the fact that he failed to even speak to Evan-Thomas for 10 days after the 5th Battle Squadron joined the Battlecruiser Fleet further atests to my assessment.

I would be willing to give a little on the issue of engaging Hipper without the 5th BS if it were not for the fact that the very issue of the placement of the 5th in the line of battle was Beatty's reponsibility alone. Not E-Ts. Not his flag officer.

How long had Beatty fought with Jellicoe for possession of the 5th BS? A year? 2? He finally GETS them and then he makes absolutely no effort to a.) speak and brief his new subordinate, or b.) insure that the 5th BS could be in a position to give him support on the off chance they might run across the Germans. The QEs could have given him better support if they had been closer....at least from long range given the 23.5-24.5 knot speed the QEs might have been able to make and the 15" guns they carried.

BTW, Bullethead....I totally agree with your assessment of Arbuthnot. He must have gone completely insane. Say hi to him in hell for me....I don't plan to be there...at least, I hope not to be!

;-D

Keith

[Bullethead]

...and I still stick by my assessment of him as a fool! ;-D

The fact that he stuck with his signals officer alone after the numerous mistakes he made in not one but two battles qualifies him for this assessment. Further, between that and the fact that he failed to even speak to Evan-Thomas for 10 days after the 5th Battle Squadron joined the Battlecruiser Fleet further atests to my assessment.

Foolishness is acting against self-interest for no good reason. Like Arbuthnot, for example. But Beatty was a poster boy for self-centeredness, so he always acted in what he saw was his best self-interest. With hindsight, we can see some of his decisions were wrong and/or short-sighted, and turned out to hurt his interests, but my point is that to him, he was always doing what was best for Beatty.

The reason some of his decisions look stupid to us is because of Beatty's other personality flaws. Being an outsider to the good ol' boys network of patronage, and having suffered for it, he seems eventually to have become pathologically anti-establishment and somewhat paranoid. This made him think his best interests lay in absolute opposition to the establishment and all its members, and cultivating his own gang whom he could trust. In addition, I think he spent more time planning the purges he'd execute once he got Jellicoe's job than in dealing with the here-and-now.

This, I think, explains his retention of Seymour for Jutland after Dogger Bank, and then for the rest of the war. No area of the service was more establishment than signals, as personified by E-T. If Beatty fired Seymour, his replacement would have been "one of them", set to undermine him. So Beatty considered it better for Beatty to keep loyal Seymour rather than get a competent replacement. Bad call in hindsight, but at least it makes sense from a certain POV. Same with not talking to E-T, a card-carrying "one of them". Why bother talking to him when they were diametrically opposed on just about everything, professionally and personally? Besides, E-T would only be around for a few days, and it was unlikely anything serious would happen during that time. Certainly, E-T was already on Beatty's hit list for when he became the big boss.

Anyway, Beatty had some very serious flaws, no doubt. But foolishness wasn't among them, IMHO.

I would be willing to give a little on the issue of engaging Hipper without the 5th BS if it were not for the fact that the very issue of the placement of the 5th in the line of battle was Beatty's reponsibility alone. Not E-Ts. Not his flag officer.

Beatty definitely had the ultimate responsibility as the man in charge. However, because he hadn't used such signals for so long in the BCF, I can easily see how, in the excitement and confusion of starting an unexpected battle, he would have forgotten for a while the need to signal E-T. That's not being a fool, that's just getting the usual tunnel vision common to most folks in such situations. At least he remembered eventually and took appropriate action, before it was too late.

That's more than can be said for E-T, who valued proper signals etiquette over tactical and strategic common-sense. Sure, Beatty should have either talked to E-T about this beforehand, or thought sent a signal sooner. But how, at a subsequent Board of Enquiry, could E-T have justified continuing in the wrong direction and totally out of the fight if Beatty'd never signalled him? "Your Honors, even though I knew Beatty was engaging, and even though I saw him turn in pursuit, and even though my job as CO 5BS is to kill Germans with my state-of-the-art ships, and thus bring this war to a victorious conclusion, I considered it much more in the national interest to adhere to the signals regulations than to join the battle on my own initiative." I don't think would have gone over very well :).

[Lempereur1]

Gentleman:

We are testing release candidate 1 and its looking very, very good!

Could be any day now! :thumup:

[Bullethead]

Could be any day now! :thumup:

That's what I wanted to hear :)