View Full Version : Why do you think SP has remained so popular over the years?
MKSheppard
28 Mar 06, 21:53
Just some ramblings from me; the game's remained popular and well liked since 1995; eleven years is a long time in terms of computer gaming.
Part of the reason may be that it's (to me); VERY Advanced Squad Leaderish. I've never actually played ASL; but I've looked at it and noted many similarities; from:
1.) 40m Hexes (ASL) vs 50m (SP)
2.) The focus on individual squads and vehicles
3.) The availability of editing tools for the game, allowing anyone with a little practice to turn the game into whatever they want it to be, much like you could with ASL and "house rules".
Other factors in the popularity IMHO are:
1.) The graphics. They were excellent for the time period (1994-95ish) and have stood up remarkably well (not that bad when you consider IIRC that SSI spent something like $100,000 on them alone). It was probably a good thing that SSI kept the graphics scale at 25m even after they changed the game scale to 50m, because it allowed much more screen real-estate to be taken up, making it feel like you're pushing minatures around.
2.) The ease of playability; Steel Panthers was part of a stable of wargames from SSI that all hit the "sweet spot" as far as user interface and playability was concerned; the others were Age of Rifles and Panzer General. They were the first to truly understand what the mouse meant for wargames; rather than being clunky "bolt-ons" at the last minute to take advantage of this new feature; the games were designed around the mouse; using context-sensitive mouse cursors. For example, clicking on a unit in Steel Panthers turned the mouse cursor into either a targeting cursor or movement cursor, making learning and playing the game significantly easier.
Does anyone else have any other ideas for the popularity?
The availability of editing tools for the game,
The ease of playability
Does anyone else have any other ideas for the popularity?
For those reasons and the fact that the best incarnations of the game (SPWW2, win SPMBT) are FREE!!
:D :love:
SP rocks for the same reason ASL rocks.
You can do it all with the game. We wargamers get a real hard on for any game that gives us virtually everything in what it depicts :)
Sure SP has a few limits, but as is well known, the design wasn't made just yesterday. Of course it hasn't got a few of the perks of last years games.
The free part though, can't ***** about that eh. How many other aaaaaaawesome games do you know of, that are also free?
IMO, the game has achieved a very good balance between simple & easy playability and sufficient complexity of tactical parameters, in other words the game can be enjoyed from both rookies and hardcore players.
But, I will redirect the question:
What is the average age of an SP player?
I guess 35 to 40...
The "free" part allows you to find the game. It does not necessarily make you a "believer". After playing it a bit, you start to have some indications that the game posseses "depth". Some scenarios/campaigns have high replayability. That means there are designers for the game, out there, that also posses designing "depth". The whole situation is ...ahhhh..."deep". :laugh: :laugh:
Achilles has a point though. It is a "thirty something" age group game. Maybe younger gamers, used to Real Time don't understand or appreciate the main aspect of turn based games which is "lean over the map, study it, think and decide ". In most RTSs players mainly react and you must have a fast "gun (mouse) draw". That, or stoping the clock to give orders (which is a contradiction in terms for Real Time games).
What made me "stick" to the game was:
1) its forum communities (this one inlcuded)
2) certain scenarios / campaigns and their designers
3) the fact that you actually ask yourself (or others) questions like "what recce tactics must I use?", " infantry in front of or behind armor?" etc and that the answers may vary according to weapons mix, era, nationality etc.
It is not a simulation, but a good game. A ....."deep" game!:laugh: :laugh:
A "not shallow" game. :nuts: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Age range is likely an issue.
Most of the gaming crowd that will enjoy this sort of game easy or not, detailed or not, will tend to be gamers that grew out of games it best emulates from their formative gaming lives.
I began playing wargames like Squad Leader, so naturally I am inclined to like a game that emulates Squad Leader.
My son though, and guys in their teens early 20s in most cases didn't grow up with Squad Leader, and potentially haven't grown up with board games at all.
That sort, is likely to think Combat Mission is the lower limit, and if the game isn't in rich dynamic 3d, is simply just not good enough.
Mustang19
29 Mar 06, 16:27
It does seem like the game appeals almost entirely to former military 30-40 year olds, although I'm 14 and love it also.
The main reason I like it is just because I've played it for soo long. When you compare Steel Panthers to a lot of modern games, like Combat Mission, I don't think it stacks up. But remember that this game was made in 1995, when there were NO games that combined graphics, wide range of OOBs, and realism like Steel Panthers did. Today, WinSPMBT isn't nearly as famous as a lot of other good, fairly realistic war games. But what probably makes the game soo popular among military historians is that the game has one of the most powerful campaign and scenario editors I've ever seen.
I think, though, that without SPWAW and Windows MBT the franchise would have died. It's not that the old series is still liked today, it's that these newer versions have become the most famous.
I will definitely agree.
Original Steel Panthers will almost certainly not run on a current computer which assumes you have a powerful system using something like XP.
So for the most part, new people discovering SP would likely not have discovered anything able to be run if all they had was the old version.
Same can be said about SP2 and SP3. They basically only work on a new computer if the user has alot of skill with dos.
On the other hand SPWaW and WinSPMBT have given the game a new life, as it is not a burden to run it on a new computer, thus there is a point to giving a damn if it can be found.
Because, even though some other older games were indeed great for instance Panzer General, and even though they too can be found for free (if you look at all), they don't like new computers that much either.
As a result, while the first games gave the old fans the reason to care, the reason the games are still with us, is the revised versions made it possible. Otherwise, yes, they would only likely be topics for nostalgia.
I don't myself know anyone that maintains a vintage system solely to play old dos warhorses from a decade ago.
junk2drive
29 Mar 06, 17:56
I'm in the over 50 crowd. The SP games appeal to older people that cannot take the pace of games designed for younger people. I had fun with RTS for a while. It just gets to be too much. And RTS can be stressfull.
Turned based and vs AI is just right for the casual old fart wargamer.
I'm 18 and turn-based is more oldschool and the game fells not into the well-known hectic of this RTS-things.
Mustang19
30 Mar 06, 09:18
I don't myself know anyone that maintains a vintage system solely to play old dos warhorses from a decade ago.
Speak for yourself- I have two Windows 98s running around 200 MHz and a Windows 95. Not counting all the ancient DOS computers we have lying around. It just isn't worth it to sell them or throw them away if you loose 1/2 of your video game collection with them.
Speak for yourself- I have two Windows 98s running around 200 MHz and a Windows 95. Not counting all the ancient DOS computers we have lying around. It just isn't worth it to sell them or throw them away if you loose 1/2 of your video game collection with them.
Pity is, I didn't know back when I had my IBM PS1 and my later 486 machine, that computers are often like real estate, never get rid of anything.
The computers were crummy aside from being ideal for wargames. The monitors were crummy aside from being able to run old wargames.
The only problem is, where the heck does a person store all those things?
I still have my first "PC", it is rather an antique but it's still working... :laugh:
TEXAS INSTRUMENT ...bought it, some 25 years ago...:smoke:
(some 19 years ago, I replaced it with an Amiga500...:laugh:)
cheers,
Mustang19
31 Mar 06, 11:32
Pity is, I didn't know back when I had my IBM PS1 and my later 486 machine, that computers are often like real estate, never get rid of anything.
The computers were crummy aside from being ideal for wargames. The monitors were crummy aside from being able to run old wargames.
The only problem is, where the heck does a person store all those things?
Most of the DOS are unplugged and sitting in the garage, but the Windows 95 is in my brother's room, the Windows 98 is sitting in another room rotting away, and the last Windows 98 is my laptop that I use all the time. But this computer, the Windows XP, is the internet and modern games computer. I still use the laptop to play a lot of old games like Panzer General and Microsoft Close Combat. In my opinion, just because a game is old dosen't make it obsolete. Gameplay matters a lot more than graphics.
MKSheppard
31 Mar 06, 17:32
My son though, and guys in their teens early 20s in most cases didn't grow up with Squad Leader, and potentially haven't grown up with board games at all.
I never played board games at all; and I was hooked from the moment I picked up Steel Panthers 1 at a sale price of 19.95 or 24.95 probably around 1996 or so.
Thing is, if you look at another wargame produced in 1995, "Panthers in the Shadows", you'll find that it's very insanely hard to get into; the interface is counterintuitive, etc.
Computer Wargames that last and gain a very devoted following like Age of Rifles, Steel Panthers, or the Panzer General series all have a single unifying characteristic; ease of interface.
The SP series is downright fun. Just as importantly, its fun every time you play it, unlike alot of 'modern' games.
Goblin
I never played board games at all; and I was hooked from the moment I picked up Steel Panthers 1 at a sale price of 19.95 or 24.95 probably around 1996 or so.
Thing is, if you look at another wargame produced in 1995, "Panthers in the Shadows", you'll find that it's very insanely hard to get into; the interface is counterintuitive, etc.
Computer Wargames that last and gain a very devoted following like Age of Rifles, Steel Panthers, or the Panzer General series all have a single unifying characteristic; ease of interface.
Ease of interface, very definitely a key detail. I think, that's why HC of Strategic Command will still have people saying good things of his game in a handful more years.
Games also have to be easy for fans to fiddle with to become classics though. And Steel Panthers, man that is about the most fiddled with wargame I can think of hehe.
freightshaker
31 Mar 06, 23:54
The lineage of SP can be traced even further back than 11 years. Typhoon of Steel and it's predecessor (can't remember the name) were produced by SSI in the mid 80's for the C-64. Both these games pioneered squad level tactical computer games. SP inherited their game mechanics and it has remained largely unchanged since. IIRC Typhoon of Steel even had a long campaign stretching the entire war and it also broke ground where no computer wargame had gone before; the Pacific theatre.
The lineage of SP can be traced even further back than 11 years. Typhoon of Steel and it's predecessor (can't remember the name) were produced by SSI in the mid 80's for the C-64.
Kampfgruppe, also programmed by Gary Grigsby. I have the Apple IIe version still in original box.
freightshaker
01 Apr 06, 02:53
Kampfgruppe, also programmed by Gary Grigsby. I have the Apple IIe version still in original box.
Kampfgruppe was platoon level, that was one of my favorites. Found it!! Panzer Strike is the Great-Granddaddy of SP. Wasted many an hour playing them in college.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/typhoon-of-steel
http://www.mobygames.com/game/panzer-strike
SP Archaic period...:laugh: :laugh:
http://eager.back2roots.org/SSHOT/T/typhoonsteel.png
Occasionally one of our old moldy oldies still manages to make into the modern era of computer usage.
Tanks Construction set II, is also still able to be enjoyed on an new XP using computer. What is also nice, you can still get it, it's freely being offered through some of the Steel Panthers gang (if you need a link, just ask).
Not high tech looking, but, I consider it sort of like playing Panzer Leader (looks pretty much the same).
The ole addage if it isn't broke don't fix it, sure applies to some of our greater sucesses in computer wargames.
Mustang19
01 Apr 06, 16:12
Personally, though, I like boardgames the best. There's something about moving pieces of cardboard on the map, instead of clicking icons on a computer screen, that makes it seem more real and enjoyable. And it's just fun to play a game against another human being that you can see and talk to.
I'll chime in and say SP has always been my favorite as I can just play the game at any time. Not alot of preparation time and play by turn always me to save etc. at any point. Great game for even the busiest of days really.
Its popular for 4 reasons:
1. You can fight any tactical battle that occurred in WWII as all of the major nations and their equipment are provided by default!
2. When it came out it was one of the first computer based wargames that had graphics that equalled or bettered those found in board games.
3. A great set of editors are provided by default.
4. The Campaigns. I especially used to like creating the user defined ones that lasted all war where you continually upgraded your equipment. Very addictive.
I like to think of Steel Panthers as a WW2 construction kit. Anything that happened you could probably do!
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