ToO: Crete, Chapter: Maleme

[Cameronius]

Here is my map of the Maleme area (relief only) and the reference map that I made it from. The yellow area indicates the game map area.:thumup:

[Achilles]

Cam, I am impressed...:surprise:

Superb map!!!:clap: :hurray:

Now, you need to find some photos of the region in order to see the vegetation (trees, grass etc...)and ground quality (turf, rocky, sand...etc). :smoke:

Thry to find some (modern) pics with color and some b/w ww2 pics.

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

This modern view shows that the high features have plenty of rough terrain, a shoreline with no beach areas and some crop feilds. I assume that in 1941 the airfeild was only earth and grass. :)

[Achilles]

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-21Ba/WH2-21BaP010a.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Maor/WH2Mao14a.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-22Ba/WH2-22BaP008a.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-20Ba/WH2-20Ba016a.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Supp/WH2Sup23b.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-22Ba/WH2-22BaP008b.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Cret/WH2CretP018a.jpg

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2-21Ba/WH2-21BaP010b.jpg

[Cameronius]

How do you post the photos so that they are displayed?

[Achilles]

CAM,

go to this site and you will find many aerial photos of Maleme region


http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/maleme.htm

http://home.freeuk.net/johndillon/images/Mal_topo.jpg

http://home.freeuk.net/johndillon/images/olivegrove.jpg

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/Photo%20Gallery/aerodromia/maleme-airport-04.jpg

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-SW.JPG

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-OVSE.JPG

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-E.JPG

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-KOL.JPG

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-S.JPG

http://www.aer.gr/aeroclub/images/MAL2003/MAL-KOL.JPG

the drawings/notes on those pictures were already there...:bandit:

[Cameronius]

Achilles, How do you post the photos so that they are displayed?

[Achilles]

How do you post the photos so that they are displayed?

You simply find the photo in one online site.
Then you right click on the photo and from the properties you copy the URL address of this photo (first select all the URL text , then rightclick copy).
After that, you go to your post and you select the "insert image" from the top menu and you simply paste the URL address (link) into the image's command line.

cheers,

[Achilles]

Cam,

Please check this map (Platamon - alpha stage)

Try to deploy some units in various places and check the movement rate.
Also check the innovation of the indestructible buildings and the tall buildings.
Finally check the agriculture patterns, although in Crete you will have to do some Tree patterns because there they have a lot of olive trees.

cheers,

[Cameronius]

Achilles, I checked out your map and it looks great! :thumup: I'm playtesting it a bit right now and I've noticed a few of things.
1. The bridge at 135,143 acts as a normal -2 stream not as a bridge.
2. I dropped 155mm all over the Castle feature and it is now a pile of burning rubble. By indestructable I guess you meant vehicles can't drive into it.
3. Where is the tall building hex? I cursored around and couldn't find one.

Your map has great value as an example of terrain for my Maleme map.
:toast:

[Achilles]

Thanks Cam,
but don't forget that this "was" Alpha version ;)

Yes by indestructible, I mean by vehicles.

The tall building issue is based on a unique attribute of the rough terrain on buildings.
In the attached small map, I give you several examples of tall & indestructible buildings but both these "tricks" shouldn't be used unless there is a very good reason, because (believe me) these tricks have nasty side-effects...:smoke:

Look at the SE church which represents the best combination (for many reasons) of the Tall & indestructible buildings.

But, to be honest the indestructible should be used only for very special reasons.

Finally, look at the NW corner the church which will be a standard of tall building... next to it there is a representation of the terrain (try to delete the buildings in order to see the terrain beneath.

cheers,

[Achilles]

Cam,

Concerning Platamon map....this is a map that needs to fulfill special tactical conditions.

My tactical problem was the following:

1. The defenders didn't posses AT weapons still they managed to defend against 100 German Tanks
2. From the 100 tanks only 25 reached the other side of the ridge after 24 hours.
3. The Tanks couldn't travel the mountain, and could't participate in the mountain battles
4. The tanks were not able to bypass the castle and overrun it.
5. The tanks were not able to travel through the beach hexes
6. The 75% of the tanks got stuck and became immobilize... one way or another!

For the above reasons, I had to think of a possible ground model that would have reflected to the above conditions.
So, in the beta phase of map I used things like indestructible CORE of buildings, mix of rough and mud terrain, mud along the coast sand hexes, mountains consisting of 90% rough terrain etc...

Just to give an example of the historical map conditions, read this historical AAR:
Here are some of the events during that battle (when the main German assault began) :

quote:

The 2nd Motor Cycle Battalion from 2 Panzer Division, reinforced with engineer, artillery and machine-gun detachments, was leading the way, and by the evening of 14 April had reached the north-east slopes of Mount Olympus. Reconnaissance elements pushed on towards Pandeleimon and had not gone far when they saw soldiers lounging in pits on the forward slopes of a flat-topped ridge. A ruined castle dominated the ridge where it ended abruptly at the sea. Judging by the casual attitude of the soldiers the patrol believed that its advance had not been observed, but soon guns opened up from behind the castle and prevented any movement. Then the guns, evidently attracted by the rest of 2 Motor Cycle Battalion moving up behind the patrol, increased their range and the patrol reported back.

The reconnaissance report, combined with the sound of demolitions that began at dusk and seemed to get farther and farther away, led to the conclusion that the British were occupying only the ridge near the castle and not the hills about it. The commander of 2 Motor Cycle Battalion decided to attack at first light next morning. Meanwhile General Veiel4 of 2 Panzer Division, still mostly to the north of Katerini, had formed two groups to carry out his task. One group, the main body of the division, was to force the Olympus Pass, while the other, the reinforced Motor Cycle Battalion, was to be joined by ⅓ Panzer Regiment (100 tanks), 11/304 Infantry Regiment (one battalion—not to go forward immediately), and two batteries of artillery. The coastal group was to be commanded by Colonel Balck, 3 Panzer Regiment, a hard, strong-willed man who later commanded an Army Group.

During the night of 14-15 April 2 Motor Cycle Battalion formed up to attack the castle, concentrating behind a ridge with the object of attacking the inland flank. Shelling from behind the castle, an irritated diarist says, ‘plagued us, front and rear, right and left… things were damned sour with us for a while’. In the morning, after a brief artillery bombardment, the battalion moved forward, making good progress until it reached the forward slopes of the castle ridge. Here a ‘murderous fire’ broke out, and the leading company suffered heavy casualties, including the company commander. The companies on the west flank found unexpected opposition, and a reconnaissance patrol was sent out to determine 21 Battalion's left flank. This patrol brought back the disconcerting information that the ridge was held as far inland as the village of Pandeleimon.

Colonel Balck arrived to take command at two o'clock in the afternoon. He found that the Motor Cycle Battalion had gone to ground in the tangled undergrowth, boulders and scrub on the forward slopes of castle ridge. Balck gave instructions for the battalion to be withdrawn and reformed. It was then to move out in a wide encircling movement to attack 21 Battalion from above Pandeleimon, while ⅓ Panzer Regiment attacked frontally at the coast. This regiment, commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Decker,5 had been ordered up from north of Katerini that morning. The roads were crammed with traffic, but the tank battalion rushed up, ‘disregarding all obstacles in its path… a few other vehicles learnt by experience that their mud guards and radiators are not so hard as tanks’. The tanks reached Katerini at two-thirty in the afternoon and Platamon just before six o'clock.

Balck ordered the tanks to attack immediately. The whole of ⅓ Panzer Regiment pushed to within 1200 metres of the castle and deployed to support the unit's light platoon of five Mark II tanks. These advanced on the castle by a narrow cart track, the only means of approach. A terrific fire from rifles, machine guns, and mortars met the tanks, but it was evident that no anti-tank guns protected the castle. The rough country prevented the tanks from closing in, although one tank almost reached a weapon pit. All five of the Mark IIs shed their tracks on boulders and were abandoned under cover of darkness. The regiment suffered no casualties during this attack.

Meanwhile, 2 Motor Cycle Battalion had been attacking C Company 21 Battalion at Pandeleimon. Three of the four companies attacked, as the fourth company had been pinned down in front of the castle until after dark when trying to disengage earlier in the afternoon. One company swung well round over country that was ‘terribly difficult, mountainous and pathless, with slopes of 700 metres to surmount’, and reached Skotina. By some error the two companies attacking frontally made contact before the outflanking company had got into place, and although some positions were siezed at great cost, they were all lost during a sharp counter-attack. The Motor Cycle Battalion called the attack off until dawn next morning, but remained in position close to Pandeleimon. Colonel Balck, after the failure of both tank and infantry attacks, reported to 2 Panzer Division:

The fight for the castle began at nightfall. End not yet in sight. Very fierce resistance, and terrible country.

In the meantime General Boehme had issued a Corps order stating that 2 Panzer Division's main effort was now to be between Olympus and the sea, with Larisa as its objective. The 6th Mountain Division was to assist by capturing the northern foothills of Olympus west of Pandeleimon, and should 2 Panzer Division be further delayed at Platamon, was to move through the mountains to Gonnos to attack the Platamon and Pinios positions from the rear. A special patrol from 6 Mountain Division was to climb Mount Olympus with the German flag—the swastika would pay homage to Zeus.

Elements from 8/800 Brandenburg Regiment, a special unit largely recruited from Germans familiar with foreign countries to undertake intelligence or sabotage tasks, were to outflank the Platamon position by sea in one motor boat and three assault boats. The force was to sail up the Pinios to capture the traffic bridge.6

That night, 15-16 April, 2 Panzer Division sent up reinforcements—1/304 Infantry Regiment and more engineers and artillery. The Germans now had 100 tanks, one battalion of infantry (1026 men), the reinforced Motor Cycle Battalion (more than 1050 men), 1/74 Artillery Regiment (twelve 105-millimetre and four 150-millimetre guns), and other artillery and specialist units. These opposed 21 Battalion, one troop of 25-pounders and one section of engineers, a total of little more than 700 men. So effective had been the fire from the four 25-pounders that 2 Panzer Division estimated that from two to three troops (8-12 guns) were in support of the castle position.

Balck decided to attack again from front and flank. The 2nd Motor Cycle Battalion was to re-attack Pandeleimon, supported this time by 1/304 Infantry Regiment; ⅓ Panzer Regiment, with one company of infantry under command, was to attack frontally; the artillery was to fire a preliminary bombardment and would then give close support. To Balck's annoyance contact was lost during the night between tanks, infantry and motor cyclists, and it was not possible to synchronise the attack. At nine o'clock in the morning of the 16th, following a deception attack at first light, the bombardment started against the castle and surrounding field positions. On the flank the Motor Cycle Battalion attacked with one company moving up behind Pandeleimon, the other three on front and flank. After a very bitter struggle with little success the appearance of 1/304 Infantry Regiment coming up to give support turned the tide, and Pandeleimon was captured with all field positions in the area. Success gave the opportunity to move down the ridge along a good track to roll up the rest of 21 Battalion.

The tanks had been accompanied by engineers to help force a passage, and their story is well told by a participant:

The right-hand company of tanks forced its way forward through scrub and over rocks, and in spite of the steepness of the hillsides got to the top of the ridge. The country was a mass of wire obstacles and swarming with the enemy. In the thick scrub visibility was scarcely a yard from the tanks, and hardly a trace was to be seen of the enemy except an occasional infantryman running back. The tanks pressed forward along a narrow mule path. Many of them shed their tracks on the boulders, or split their track assemblies, and finally the leading troop ran on to mines … and completely blocked the path. A detour was attempted. Two more tanks stuck in a swamp and another was blown up on a mine….

Colonel Macky withdrew his battalion a few minutes before ten o'clock, and Balck signalled to 2 Panzer Division that the castle had been captured at five past ten; he said that his forward units had suffered 25 per cent casualties. The 21st Battalion got clean away, crossed the Pinios River, and by nightfall reached the village of Tempe at the western end of the gorge; its casualties had been light—36 killed, wounded and missing.

The Germans tried to press the pursuit, but immediate advance was impossible as the tanks could not get down the castle ridge. The infantry, badly mauled, needed reorganising. The tunnel through which the railway passed the castle ridge almost at the edge of the sea had been so thoroughly blown that the engineers estimated it would take five days to clear. Actually temporary repairs were effected sooner, but as late as 20 April engineers reported that the tunnel kept falling in and no set time could be given for repairs. One company of tanks tried to get forward along the edge of the sea but found this impossible. In the end the tanks were towed over the ridge, such a slow process that only 25-30 tanks had been got across by eleven o'clock next day.




cheers,

[Cameronius]

Achilles, that is a very interesting batlle history. It sounds like 21 Bn could have held the Castle position for even longer if they had chosen to. I think that the special design features of your map will suit this battle to a tee. Once again very nice map. :thumup:

[Achilles]

Achilles, that is a very interesting batlle history. It sounds like 21 Bn could have held the Castle position for even longer if they had chosen to. I think that the special design features of your map will suit this battle to a tee. Once again very nice map. :thumup:

Thanks again Cam,

The platamon chapter will be divided in 3 or 4 smaller missions (local battles) and perhaps a big one (the final one).
I am even considering to include this what if battle:

Elements from 8/800 Brandenburg Regiment, a special unit largely recruited from Germans familiar with foreign countries to undertake intelligence or sabotage tasks, were to outflank the Platamon position by sea in one motor boat and three assault boats. The force was to sail up the Pinios to capture the traffic bridge

Anyway, please tell me if everything is clear concerning the tall buildings in the small sample map (I assume you have DL it form my previous post).

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

Achilles, The tall building map is very informative. It looks like you are simply building a hill of x-height then placing your building on top. You are not using the asterisk function, right? The cruciform churches you are building, are these only available with the extended map editor or are they in the winspww2 engine? I can't seem to get them to appear in my winspmbt map editor.

[Achilles]

Achilles, The tall building map is very informative. It looks like you are simply building a hill of x-height then placing your building on top. You are not using the asterisk function, right? The cruciform churches you are building, are these only available with the extended map editor or are they in the winspww2 engine? I can't seem to get them to appear in my winspmbt map editor.

Cam,

The tall building is based on reverse engineering.:smoke:

i) First you deploy your building
ii) Then you select rough terrain (!!) and you place it in the hexes on top of the building that you wish to create the high elevation (for example in the centre of the building)
iii) Now, you select an appropriate elevation 5,6,7,...15 and you place it in the middle hex next to your rough (invisible) hex (that you wish to be elevated).

The result is that only that rough hex will be elevated after you save the map (TEST IT). :)

For these maps I use the WinSPWW2 map editor, so you are probably right, this church may be a WinSPWW2 building.

cheers,
Pyros

[Achilles]

Cam,

Check this topo map of the Maleme region.

I have filtered the display to elevation curves of 10 meters

THIS IS A REVOLUTION IN THE TOPO MAP DESIGNING !!!:banana:

[Cameronius]

That is very good. My topography does differ slightly from that representation, but I am sure that you don't wish me to start over!? :confused: I am well into alpha stage design, streams and road network are complete, now placing buildings. Have a look.

[Achilles]

Cam,

I posted this in order to make it known for everyone that we have the ability to obtain superb topo maps with intervals of 10 meter elevation curves.

Your Maleme map is excellent, (we may use this power-tool for the next set of maps).:smoke:


cheers,
Pyros

p.s I believe we can merge these maps with small hexagons!!! :cool:

[Achilles]

Cam,

Two suggestions:

i) Your mule-trails have a width of 2 earth hexes (100 meters), why 2 and not 1 (50 meters)?

ii) Try to avoid placing the axis of a mule-train directly on a slope (parallels)

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

I used a width of two simply for visiblity, they are very difficult to see otherwise. Any other suggestions to make them more visible?
Cutting a trail parallel to a slope seems realistic as representing a cutback feature, or is there another reason you are advising against it?

[Achilles]

Cam,

Look at this example of 1-hex mule-trail.

The path will be visible for the player in the movement radious ;)

[The path on the edge of the slope is located inside the red circle]

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

Ok, Ich verstehen!:thumup: :salute:

[Mustang19]

How do you post the photos so that they are displayed?

If you want to post your own photos, get an account at www.photobucket.com . They let you upload as many images as you want, as long as they are all under 250 KB. It gives you the URL of the images you upload, so you can display the image using the technique Pyros described.

[Achilles]

If you want to post your own photos, get an account at www.photobucket.com . They let you upload as many images as you want, as long as they are all under 250 KB. It gives you the URL of the images you upload, so you can display the image using the technique Pyros described.

Thanks Mustang for the upload address ! (I usually upload them in Shrapnel forum...:laugh: , but I will try your uploading site).

[Achilles]

Ok, Ich verstehen!:thumup: :salute:

To tell you the truth, (thanks to you) I ve noticed that the mix of grey and brown rough terrain is better looking...:bandit:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/pyroslambert/path.jpg

I used the image from the uploading link thast Mustang provided us. :PIMP:

[Cameronius]

To tell you the truth, (thanks to you) I ve noticed that the mix of grey and brown rough terrain is better looking...:bandit:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/pyroslambert/path.jpg

I used the image from the uploading link thast Mustang provided us. :PIMP:
Pyros,Yes, I thought so too! Even in photos you don't see all grey or all brown, but rather one predominant with a mix of the second. And you'll notice in the highlands grey is predominant, lowlands brown. It will all look differerent once covered with trees and orchards.
Mustang, thanks I'll try that website.

[Cameronius]

Are these cemeteries? schools? municiple buildings? Which is which?help?!:argh:
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/Cameronius/?sc=1&multi=1&addtype=local&media=image

[Achilles]

Are these cemeteries? schools? municiple buildings? Which is which?help?!:argh:
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/Cameronius/?sc=1&multi=1&addtype=local&media=image

Cam,

The link that you provided us, request a login as Cameronius and ask for a password! :laugh:

You better insert these photos as images by inputting their URL inside the image function (found in the post menu).

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

http://I don't friggin get it:argh: How do you make this friggin' photobulls**t work!!!!????:hmmm: :hurt: :argh: :drink: :help1:

[Achilles]

Cam,

1. First you right click on the photo and the you select the properties.
2. From the properties you select the URL address and then you right click and copy the address.
3. Now you go to your post and you click the "insert Image" tool (second line; fourth from the right).
4. In the command line you right click and paste the URL address that you have previously copied from the photo.
5 Repeat the same process for additional images in the same post.

cheers,:)

[Cameronius]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/Cameronius/WH2CretP002ab.jpg
HaHa! I ROCK!:thumup: :hail: :ar15: :clap: :PIMP: :hurray: :banana:

[Cameronius]

I am very tired. I have been working 12hr days all week.

[Achilles]

Cam,

1. the blank circle with cross is Ruined church
2. the black circle with cross is church.

more:
3. black square with cross is monastery,
4. blank square with cross is Shrine
5. blank square (bigger) with inside [black circle with cross and another cross] is cemetery

cheers,
Pyros

[Achilles]

I am very tired. I have been working 12hr days all week.

This is too much... :shock:

perhaps you must take a break form designing maps....:laugh: :laugh:

The same happens to me from time to time... sometimes, when I am working on a RL project, I spent 12-16 hours per day for 1 -1,5 months...:surprise: :cry:

cheers,
Pyros

[Cameronius]

Thanks Achilles, time for a nap.:bored:

[Achilles]

Sweet dreams! :laugh:

I remember one time... when I used to play a lot of pbem...
It was this game, against a guy who had never lost in his career,
and I am positive that at least two times, I dreamed (while sleeping) of tactics concerning our ongoing pbem!!! :laugh:

Just for the records, I won :devil:

[Cameronius]

Thought I had better post the Alpha 2 Maleme map here too.