View Full Version : ToO: African Campaign
Theatre of Operations: African Campaign
Serior designer: Wulfir
Chapters:
1. El Alamein
2. Company 621 on 10 July 1942 (Mustang, research)
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Cameronius
09 Mar 06, 17:29
The defense of Tobruk would be a good chapter to include here.:salute:
The defense of Tobruk would be a good chapter to include here.:salute:
Then we may include it and you may already start to do the research. :laugh:
Just, try to contact with Wulfir, as he is the senior designer of the African Campaign and perhaps he has already something in mind. :smoke:
Mustang19
10 Mar 06, 09:41
http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/21/creteegypt/standegypt05.htm
There's some good detail there about an ANZAC assault on the German 621 company. The player might play the 2/24 infantry against two Italian infantry companies and one German infantry company, as the ANZAC consisted of two mech batallions, the 2/24 and 2/28. The 2/28 went south to seize the railway station and apparently didn't see any fighting, so if the player has a batallion-size core you could just throw him in there and not give him any auxiliary units. The advance began at 3:40 AM and some vehicles (probably Brens) became immobilized in salt flats (so remember to add some soft sand to the map). The ANZAC (part of the Australian 9th Division) had some artillery support, which they used to lay down smoke and HE, but it was not necessary as they easily overwhelmed the Italian troops they were up against. They also ran into the German 621 Intelligence company, which they captured and found a great deal of German codebooks and other classified stuff (this would make for an interesting surprise at the end of the mission). It was a pretty easy battle for the ANZAC apparently, but I think we could add just a few anti-tank guns or other support to strengthen the Axis. Just a few well-placed defences can do a lot of damage.
As for the map, maybe we could use Google Earth if no topo maps are available. The land was mostly flat, so it wouldn't be too difficult to model in the few hills in the area. What do you think of including this scenario?
Good approach Mustang, :smoke:
If you like you may continue working on this, but first try to get in contact with Wulfir (senior designer of Africa campaign)
Concerning the desert maps, their design should much easier than the others, STILL you must respect the topo elevation, because the sand-dunes are considered as mountain formations (but most of the battles were fought in a arid terrain with small rocks).
Anyway, search for photographs to see the landscape of the region.
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
14 Mar 06, 12:52
I looked all over the internet and Google Earth and couldn't find any topograhpy for the area. Unless you have a map of the area and can scan it and post it online, I guess I'll have to cancel this 621 Company project.
I looked all over the internet and Google Earth and couldn't find any topograhpy for the area. Unless you have a map of the area and can scan it and post it online, I guess I'll have to cancel this 621 Company project.
I will look at it...:smoke:
but,
One of the problems in retelling this story is that it is impossible to pinpoint the exact location of 621 company at the time it was overrun. German, British and Australian records give no map references. There's been speculation that nothing was officially recorded for reasons of security, and that explanation seems reasonable. Most of the German accounts talk of 621 company being "by the sea", so it can be speculated that it was located some distance north of trig 33. In fact, there's very little detail on the incident at all.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/21/creteegypt/images/Company621.jpg
Approximate location of Company 621 on 10 July 1942
I found the spot,
After a couple of days (or sooner) I will try to post a map of the area (from the Greek archives of the El Alamein battle or from the Google_Earth.
Attached the spot (look at the red circle)
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15297&d=1142363949
In your google earth map do this elevation trick:
go to the tools/option and put next to elevation exaggeration the value of 3 !!
cheers,
This is your battlefield.
In the SE you will notice a white line with 2 red dots, this line represents 1 Km or else 20 hexes.
The map is pointing North
Maximum elevation is 17 meters, average is 8, so... if you put elevation... limit this at ONLY level 1 hill!!!!
This is a view from 2/3 perspective.
IT DOESN'T point to north, rather NW...???
Use the other map, this map is only for elevation...
Mustang19
14 Mar 06, 17:03
I tried the elevation trick- it dosen't do anything. According to Google, there's no elevations at all anywhere along Egypt's coast! The problem is that in WinSPBMT you're looking for fairly detailed coverage of an area- down to 50-foot hills. Google Earth is meant for people looking for mountain ranges and things like that. Desert terrain does undulate enough to mess with LOS, which is important enough to matter in a battle, but it does it very smoothly (standing somewhere in the desert, you won't even notice all the small rises in the ground). There aren't many maps that can represent this. Which is why any topo map is going to be very innacurate for battlefield purposes. The "hills" talked about in the 621 Company article are probably just 50 foot tall clumps of dirt.
By the way, have you ever made a desert map before? Is there a lot of "filling in the blanks" involved due the lack of information? Like, how do you know where rough terrain is located and what constitutes rough terrain, etc?
By the way, have you ever made a desert map before? Is there a lot of "filling in the blanks" involved due the lack of information? Like, how do you know where rough terrain is located and what constitutes rough terrain, etc?
Well... yes, more or less. Sometimes you might be able to mine a bit of information regarding the terrain in descriptions of the fighting, sometimes not.
Bill Close, an officer in the British 3 RTR said of the feutureless desert:
"Names marked boldly on the maps as Gabr Saleh or Bir Berraneb were simply figments of the cartographers imagination. Look around and you might find a well in a shady hollow but not much more..."
Mustang,
Here is a topo map 1:100,000 of an approximate region.
In the top of this map you may see the Ruweisat Ridge, which is less than 30 Km (south of) the the location of 621 company.
You may use this map in order to create a similar relief.
In this map you may see depression, sand concentrations.
The max elevation is 104, each elevation line represents 20 meters, so you may use this lines for each hill level (total of 5 levels).
The scale represents 4 km with divisions of 1 Km.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/366790-alamein_map.JPG
Cameronius
15 Mar 06, 09:32
I tried the elevation trick- it dosen't do anything. According to Google, there's no elevations at all anywhere along Egypt's coast! The problem is that in WinSPBMT you're looking for fairly detailed coverage of an area- down to 50-foot hills. Google Earth is meant for people looking for mountain ranges and things like that. Desert terrain does undulate enough to mess with LOS, which is important enough to matter in a battle, but it does it very smoothly (standing somewhere in the desert, you won't even notice all the small rises in the ground). There aren't many maps that can represent this. Which is why any topo map is going to be very innacurate for battlefield purposes. The "hills" talked about in the 621 Company article are probably just 50 foot tall clumps of dirt.
By the way, have you ever made a desert map before? Is there a lot of "filling in the blanks" involved due the lack of information? Like, how do you know where rough terrain is located and what constitutes rough terrain, etc?
Well that's it I guess. We will just have to dig deep into the project fund and buy you a plane ticket and some surveying equipment. Get your ass to the airport, we only have 3 months to get this done.:laugh:
Mustang19
16 Mar 06, 18:07
I found a way to find the elevation in Google Earth! Look at the lower left part of the screen where it says "Elevation". This shows the elevation of the point under your cursor, accurate down to 1 foot! Kind of painful to have to run your cursor over the entire battle area, but it's a start. Cheaper than flying halfway across the world. Well, at least I heard some Swedish company set up a nic resort in El Alamein after the war. :laugh: Pyros, you should mention this elevation feature in all of your "Map designing powertool" threads.
It's strange, but it seems like Pyros has already done more work on this scenario than I have. Where did you get that topo map?
Mustang19
16 Mar 06, 18:43
I looked on Google. Apparently, the terrain is very uniform. The terrain rises from the sea to about 40 feet .75 miles away. From there, it descends for 1.5 miles to 10 feet, then rises to 70 feet for two miles, drops back to 60 feet for a mile, then rises for one mile to 100 feet. This is just for the eastern 2 miles of the battle area, though, and the western part is about half the height in all places but follows the same pattern. Do you think that this is good enough for the map? I can't seem to find where the Italian positions on Trig 33, but if we need to we can just do the assault on 621 company only and maybe give them a few 88 guns to beef up the defences.
I found a way to find the elevation in Google Earth! Look at the lower left part of the screen where it says "Elevation". This shows the elevation of the point under your cursor, accurate down to 1 foot! Kind of painful to have to run your cursor over the entire battle area, but it's a start. Cheaper than flying halfway across the world. Well, at least I heard some Swedish company set up a nic resort in El Alamein after the war. :laugh: Pyros, you should mention this elevation feature in all of your "Map designing powertool" threads.
It's strange, but it seems like Pyros has already done more work on this scenario than I have. Where did you get that topo map?
I though you knew that elevation was displayed in the bottom bar along with the GDS coordinates.:)
Anyway, another VERY-VERY good tool is the measure tool, which gives you a scale to work.
If you search through the attachments of my posts you will find the exact location of this area.
The topo map is scanned from the official Greek military archives (in the battle of El Alamein, Greek forces were involved.)
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
20 Mar 06, 09:57
Sorry it took so long, but here is my first try at a map of the area. I looked at the picture of the landscape you provided, but couldn't find much. This is why the map looks soo blank. The picture shows what look like some trails, so I added them in as Bare Earth (not secondary roads). Well, it's the best I can do unless I find a way to get more detail on the area. What do you think? If you want I can expand the map to make it include the hills held by the Italians.
Mustang19
24 Mar 06, 08:58
The lack of a reply makes me think that you think that the map sucks :cry:
Seriously, I can't really see any way to add more detail. I looked at the photo you provided of the area and couldn't find any land marks other than the trails and hills further landward. I guess I could go in and fudge in a lot of rough terrain, but I don't see any in the pictures. How could the map be made better?
No.. No!!!
I simply didn't notice this post. :)
I will look at it immediately!!!
cheers,
The lack of a reply makes me think that you think that the map sucks :cry:
Seriously, I can't really see any way to add more detail. I looked at the photo you provided of the area and couldn't find any land marks other than the trails and hills further landward. I guess I could go in and fudge in a lot of rough terrain, but I don't see any in the pictures. How could the map be made better?
Mustang the map is Ok, but we can make it even better! ;)
First of all, I think that you haven't use the DESERT palette in order to design the map (you must have used the summer palette).
Secondly, let me make a quick research of the area top map (we may add more elevation curves)
I will also try to find some more photos of the area.
From my experience, there must be a road somewhere to the parallel line along the coast (along this road you may see some minor vegetation)...
Let me search a bit and I will bring you more data. :smoke:
cheers,
Green areas elevation 2
Blue area elevation 1
White area sand for seaside
The white line between the red dots at big satelite photo defines 4,29 kilometers (scale of map)
The terrain must be rather solid (barren).
more to follow....:)
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/413681-mustang1.JPG
Mustang19
24 Mar 06, 15:02
I was looking at the picture posted earlier in this thread and it seemed like most of the land near the coast is green, which is why I picked the Summer palette. It probably changes with the seasons, because I know it does rain a lot in North Africa around the winter months. But as the battle takes place on July 10, it's probably without vegetation.
It seems that the area marked on the maps you just provided is different from the 621 Company engagment area. The terrain looks kind of different. The area that I'm looking for is 10 miles west of El Alamein. I don't know whether or not you meant it to be a map of the battle area, though. Regardless, I looked on Fallingrain.com and couldn't find any map of the area. I looked a town 10 miles west of Alamein and switched to the topo map. It just won't load for some reason (it just stops loading and says "done"). So I guess I'll have to use whatever information you gather.
Achilles to the rescue again. :laugh:
Actually this must be the same area... (if I remember well)
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/386800-ww2_AREA_621.JPG
I will try to find some photos.
cheers,
these three pictures are the most representatives
http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/21/creteegypt/images/Company621.jpg
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/baker_00/03/baker-br-03-p6/mk33panzertank.jpg
http://www.geoffstravelscrapbook.co.uk/main/images/egypt/egyptnorth03.jpg
Use this map in order to have a scale
http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Egyp/WH2Egy24a.jpg
this a close up concerning the road network
http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Medi/WH2Med36a.jpg
this an aerial of the WW2 era
http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Alam/WH2Ala09a.jpg
BINGO !!!:PIMP: :banana: :hurray: :nofear: :banana: :hurray:
Aerial Colored Photo of the El Alamein Area...:smoke: ( 21-12-04 )
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/360600-alamein.JPG
Achilles,
It's official. You're completely crazy! And the rest of the campaign crew is following in column! :eek:
Great job guys!
:hail: :hail: :clap: :clap:
Achilles,
It's official. You're completely crazy! And the rest of the campaign crew is following in column! :eek:
Great job guys!
:hail: :hail: :clap: :clap:
:PIMP: Rimini files on their way... :jack:
Mustang19
27 Mar 06, 12:25
Alright, here is a brand new map of the area. The zip has two files. One is the map itself. The other is a grid I made of the area to help me make the map. Each grid square is exactly 8 hexes, and I went off of that. I had trouble putting the roads in because the SPMBT maps have a different "slant" than the map you provided, but it worked out fine. Bear in mind that this is just a basic map, and I'm going to add sand dunes and whatever else I can think of once you approve this basic terrain.
Thanks for all the maps. I'll admit that the only one I really had use for is the big El Alamein map (where'd you get that?), but it was very helpful. In reality the battle with 621 Company took place 10 miles west of El Alamein, but this map is of the area 2-4 miles west of El Alamein where the battles with the Italians on Trigs 33, 24, and 22 took place. I think we should just "fudge" the details and place the 621 company somewhere around here so we can include the Italians without making a 10X10 mile map!
Hi Mustang,
Very big improvement since the last map, BUT:)
I am not sure if you fully understand the scale of a map.
The map you need to design is the map included in the red box.
This map represents approx 3 miles x 3 miles = (SP map of) 100 hexes x 100 hexes.
Look at the other topo maps and try to design the red box (100x100 hexes map)
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/366515-mustang3.JPG
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
28 Mar 06, 09:55
Oh, I see. The map isn't marked in 1/5 of a mile incremements. Confusing. :cheeky:
The question is, do you want me to include the battles with the Italians? It would make the player's job a lot harder, because taking down a single company (the 621 company) would probably be too easy unless we made it very unrealistic and gave the 621 company tons of backup (which can be done, of course). What I think we should do is move the map over to the area between Trigs 22 and 24, and expand it a little so we can include both hills. Noone knows exactly where 621 Company was, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to put it near the Italians.
According to you, the Fallingrain.com maps have green parts with an elevation of 2 and blue parts with an elevation of 1. So the terrain is basically level 2 flat, but has several level 1 depressions? And does that topo map cover my battle area? Just making sure.
Mustang,
Make a quick historical research and try to find something that you find interesting.
If you try to find something to the south of that position I may provide you with 1:100.000 topo maps.
The question is to find something that will inspire you to design a nice scenario (and a nice map).
The is no need for absolute historical accuracy, just try to find something interesting and we will try to find a way to make it doable.
Just, take into consideration that for that battle, it may be better that each nation's forces should not exceed a the level of 2-3 Bn.
Perhaps Wulfir (when he will become available :D ) , may give you general directions. :smoke:
cheers,
p.s you are correct about the fallingrain map; in your place I would make great use of the aerial photo.
Sorry for intervening. If the additional Italian are infantry units rule of thumb is that they were not battle worthy so a numerically smaller allied force could fair pretty well against them. Things are different if the Italian unit is Arriete (armored/mech div) or if Italians have artillery support. So if additional units are artilleryles Italian infantry you can still have a "logical battle" (:nuts: )
You may proceed now:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Mustang19
29 Mar 06, 16:09
Here is what I hope will be the final edition of the 621 Company area map. It covers all the same ground as the previous map, but is much bigger (200X100). Places where victory objectives are going to be placed have been marked. Sand dunes and rough terrain has yet to be added, and I did modify the realistic position of some terrain features very slightly, but other than that this map appears to be reasonably accurate. What do you guys think?
Mustang19
29 Mar 06, 16:17
BINGO !!!:PIMP: :banana: :hurray: :nofear: :banana: :hurray:
Aerial Colored Photo of the El Alamein Area...:smoke: ( 21-12-04 )
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/360600-alamein.JPG
I'm not sure that I'll have much use for that because the battle takes place a few miles west of El Alamein. It does tell me a little bit about what the terrain near the coast is like, though. Are those black squares farms?
Here is what I hope will be the final edition of the 621 Company area map. It covers all the same ground as the previous map, but is much bigger (200X100). Places where victory objectives are going to be placed have been marked. Sand dunes and rough terrain has yet to be added, and I did modify the realistic position of some terrain features very slightly, but other than that this map appears to be reasonably accurate. What do you guys think?
Mustang,
These files are exactly the same with the other ones..??:hmmm:
Their date is 27/3, perhaps you have sent the wrong files...
cheers,
Sgt Walrus
30 Mar 06, 07:41
Hi Guys
I thought of a few NZ actions in the Western Desert that might make good battles.
28 June '42 : The Breakout at Minqar Qaim...NZ Div escapes a German encirclement in the night, Gen. Freyburg is wounded and Rommel later comments on the savagery of the action.
15 July 1942 : Ruweisat Ridge. 4 Brigade vs 15 Panzer. Perhaps just the German counter attack. What if the British armour has actually come to help? NZ lost 2 battalions captured, including Charlie Upham VC+Bar...SHAME ///
19 April '43 : The Battle for Takrouna feature. 5 Brigade attacks the Trieste Div, one section from the 28th Maori Btn takes the heights of this distinctive hill/village. Gen. Horrocks remarks that the attack was "the most gallant feats of arms I witnessed during the war."
Just some ideas. I have quite a bit of info in books about these battles and have found some pix of Takrouna on the net but no topo maps.
I noticed you were looking at a battle near Ruwiesat...perhaps both battles could use the same map?
Let me know whether any/ all of them are worth investigating further.
These actions do not include Aussi units and may not fit your plan.
Cheers
Excellent stuff Jason!,
Proceed at will ! :smoke:
Just try to post your material on threads with the following format:
ToO: African Campaign, Chapter: The Breakout at Minqar Qaim
Also, it may be best to get in contact with Wulfir, ( in order to better coordinate the whole action in the African campaign). ;)
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
30 Mar 06, 09:09
Mustang,
These files are exactly the same with the other ones..??:hmmm:
Their date is 27/3, perhaps you have sent the wrong files...
cheers,
They're a different map, just somewhat similar. I downloaded the files, and they seem to be my new map. I'll re-post them here. The way you can tell if it is the new map or not is because the new map is 200X100.
Mustang,
This map looks fine :)
The only thing you have to do is to use 2 types of roads:
1) Dirt roads as primary roads
2) Clear terrain as secondary roads (this is a road when surrounded by sand and rough terrain).
For sure you can't use tramlines, and I am not sure, but I think that paved road did not exist in that area (by that time).:smoke:
cheers,
Pyros
p.s the road-network plays a very important role in the desert battle.
Mustang,
If you manage to fully understand all these topo map discussions... you will be the best in school geography lesson....:laugh: :laugh:
Just look at this new map tool (showing the region that you wish to design):
This is a completely flat map near El Alamein (Africa).
Thanks to this display filter, I managed to make visible the 10 meters elevation curves.
In this 14 km x 10 km desert map
Purple is -10 meters,
Cyan is above -10 and below 0 meters,
Blue is 0 meters,
Green is above 0 and below 10 meters,
Yellow is 10 meters,
Red is 20 meters,
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/413681-mustang1.JPG
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/415253-MustangTOPO.JPG
cheers,
Mustang19
31 Mar 06, 14:30
The tram lines are there to represent water pipes. In game terms, they have absolutely NO significance in terms of defensive bonuses, movement costs, etc., and are purely cosmetic.
Here's my new version. I put in beach sand hexes for the secondary roads. Looks pretty good, in my opinion, although it dosen't give you any kind of movement bonus like a real road would and so has no in-game effect. According to the map you gave me, there is a real dirt road along the coast, and it lists all the other roads as "tracks". I have used this beach terrain to represent the tracks.
After this, I will look at the nice new elevation map you found and try to add more detail to the map's hills. Last will be the sand dunes and rough terrain, which I will add at random places along the map for lack of good photo coverage of the entire area.
Mustang,
The role of the tracks, pipelines, trails etc... is to add to the mobility of the units inside the battlefield, and not to simply appear on the map.
The beach sand hexes instead of giving a bonus to the mobility they impose a penalty, so no unit will use (by default) these beach sand trails.
In this map, I have modified the 2-hex beach sand trail into a 1-hex earth trail with some soft sand in the edges. If you add more elements in the next stages of your designing process, you will see that the units will have a bonus when moving through the trail.
Also, try to see if the units will have a movement bonus through the tram-line, because this would affect the game tactics.
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
03 Apr 06, 09:23
Here's the map with full paths. I made a two-hex wide path because I thought it looked nicer- tell me if you really like one-hex paths for whatever reason so that I know to use them in the future. Also, the tram line was taken out because I did a test and found that it does provide a movement bonus.
Here's the map with full paths. I made a two-hex wide path because I thought it looked nicer- tell me if you really like one-hex paths for whatever reason so that I know to use them in the future. Also, the tram line was taken out because I did a test and found that it does provide a movement bonus.
looks nice :thumup:
cheers,
Mustang19
05 Apr 06, 16:20
I made a prototype of what really happened using SPMBT. This scenario represents what happened in reality, with two UK mech infantry batallions carried by Bren carriers assaulting two Italian and one German infantry company. The Italians are from the 1946 Italian OOB and the "Germans" are from the 1946 Romania OOB. As it is, this scenario is heavily unbalanced in favor of the UK side, so I will of course have to add antitank guns or something. It wouldn't take much, maybe one or two 88's or a dug-in Panzer IV or III platoon.
There are four objectives- three hills held by Italians and the unguarded Tel el Eisa Station. These objectives are all worth only 100 points each, so the player will have to find an destroy the 400-point 621 Company HQ to win. It should be easy to find, because it lies in between three of the objectives. For extra support, the British player has two 4.2 inch mortar platoons, four FOs with jeep transports, and two offmap 25 pounder regiments. After reading the account about this battle, it seems to me that this support is about right. I'm going to playtest this right now. I'm posting it here in case anyone would like to check it out and comment.
I was planning to use the SRTM topo map Pyros posted here, but for the moment I'm too lazy to make any sense of it. Maybe later, or maybe never.
Very nice Mustang,
But I have a question...
What about the Anzac Core force?
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
06 Apr 06, 16:44
What about the ANZAC core force?
As it is now, the British player is kind of overbalanced toward infantry and needs more tanks. But this is the way it really was. The mission as it is now is kind of unrealistic, because in real life the Italians guarding the hills where taken by surprise in the early morning and didn't put up much of a fight. I playested this mission up to turn 9 and it seems that the British player will win through sheer weight of numbers as long as he dosen't disperse his force. But in the final release, more AT guns will be added to give the defenders more capability if the player comes at them with a combined-arms force (right now, they lack serious AT capability.)
But I don't have to worry about this now. The map is made, and next I will probably work on an El Alamein scenario or something else in Africa.
Mustang19
02 May 06, 18:52
I haven't been doing anything for a while, but I think it's time that I returned to the project. Here (http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Egyp-c12.html) is a link to info on a 2nd NZ division breakout at Minar el-Qaim. It has a nice map, and looks like a good source for info. I downloaded the SRTM map program off the internet, but unfortunately it won't install so the Microdem thing is useless to me (it would be nice if someone else could find the area and post the microdem map as a JPEG here, though).
There is also an interesting thread about the battle here (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36510).
Nice thinking Mustang, :)
I will create a thread in which anyone could request help for a particular map and then other people will try to assist him on his request.
Btw, give me 3-4 days and I will provide you with the map you have requested.
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang19
06 May 06, 14:43
A Google internet search didn't show any results, and although the map they give you on the NZETC site is good for the general area it is worthless for tactical details. So yeah, I'll either need the SRTM map or I'll have to find a different scenario.
Mustang,
I will find you your map.
cheers,
Pyros
Mustang,
If there is anything that you don't understand, please ask.
cheers,
Pyros
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/pyroslambert/minqair_qaimCF1.jpg
Hi guys,
I've been preoccupied with some other stuff for a while and lost track of the progress made regarding the North African section of the campaign.
To help plan things I'd like to know what people had in mind regarding:
a) the size of the battles (roughly what are we going to be creating Coy, Bn, Rgt(-) size battles).
b) roughly how many scenarios is the African section going to be made up of...
and
c) are the scenarios going to a mix of Australian and New Zeeland engagements... or focus on one participant?
Hi Ulf,
check this thread
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40792
and tell me what you think about the suggested evolution.
cheers,
Pyros
Hi Ulf,
and tell me what you think about the suggested evolution.
Looks OK to me. Core force about three companies worth for the African battles then...
Looks OK to me. Core force about three companies worth for the African battles then...
Ulf,
We should try and define the comosition of these three companies:
A. (motorised) Infantry Coy
B. Heavy weapon Coy (Artillery Bat, At platoons, AA platoon, engineers etc..)
C. Tank company (2x light platoon, 1 medium, 1 recon Pl. etc..)
Then we may FIX their cost, and allocate these points to each ToO.
cheers,
Pyros
We should try and define the comosition of these three companies:
A. (motorised) Infantry Coy
B. Heavy weapon Coy (Artillery Bat, At platoons, AA platoon, engineers etc..)
C. Tank company (2x light platoon, 1 medium, 1 recon Pl. etc..)
Then we may FIX their cost, and allocate these points to each ToO.
I think I'll leave the calculating in your capable hands. :smoke:
Knowing roughly the size of the battles is good enough for me.
The African camp will span roughly mid/late 1941 until spring 1943.
To cover this period, what number of individual scenarios would be reasonable? Are we talking 10, 20 or more...?
I think I'll leave the calculating in your capable hands. :smoke:
Knowing roughly the size of the battles is good enough for me.
The African camp will span roughly mid/late 1941 until spring 1943.
To cover this period, what number of individual scenarios would be reasonable? Are we talking 10, 20 or more...?
I think a number between 10 and 20 will be good, but it also depends on the size of the scenarios.
Ulf, can you make a small (first) list of the scenarios that you think that they are appropriate for the African Campaign?
Perhaps we should split the African campaign into 2 or more separate phases?
cheers,
Pyros
Ulf, can you make a small (first) list of the scenarios that you think that they are appropriate for the African Campaign?
Sure..., this being the "Anzac" campaign should there be a focus on both Australian and New Zeeland forces...?
Ulf,
Yes this should be an ANZAC-centric campaign but there is always some margin for fiction! :joy:
Perhaps some alternate history could prove to be a nice addition.
We should also try to make useful conclusion from the campaign questionnaire.
cheers,
Pyros
p.s I like the new "smiles" :clap: :shock: :mad: :bite: :p :devil: :angry: :upset: :laugh:
Ulf, can you make a small (first) list of the scenarios that you think that they are appropriate for the African Campaign?
Here's a rough draft, any comments welcome;
Nov 41 - Jan 42 'The Crusader Battles'
5 scenarios
Jan 42 - Jul 42 'The British retreat'
5 scenarios
Jul 42 - Oct 42 'The Alam Halfa/Alamein battles'
5 scenarios
Oct 42 - May 43 'The drive for Tunisia'
5 scenarios
Mustang19
10 May 06, 11:42
Twenty scenarios in just one theater... this is going to be a long campaign.
Here's a rough draft, any comments welcome;
Nov 41 - Jan 42 'The Crusader Battles'
5 scenarios
Jan 42 - Jul 42 'The British retreat'
5 scenarios
Jul 42 - Oct 42 'The Alam Halfa/Alamein battles'
5 scenarios
Oct 42 - May 43 'The drive for Tunisia'
5 scenarios
The list looks very nice!:clown:
Twenty scenarios in just one theater... this is going to be a long campaign.
Too long...? :bandit:
Maybe it would be more reasonable to go with 3+3+3+3 instead making it around 12 all in all for Africa. We could also cut a section, send the player to R&R in Alexandria or the Delta... (parts of 2 NZ Div did not participate in the drive to Tunisia as they were converting to armour)...
Too long...? :bandit:
Maybe it would be more reasonable to go with 3+3+3+3 instead making it around 12 all in all for Africa. We could also cut a section, send the player to R&R in Alexandria or the Delta... (parts of 2 NZ Div did not participate in the drive to Tunisia as they were converting to armour)...
The number of scenarios is not quite important.
What is important is the size of scenarios...
For instance 3 very big scenarios (50+) turns are much heavier for the player (could will make him tired or bored) than 5-6 quick scenarios.
IMO, I could see something like a relation of [1 big : 1 medium : 2 small] per 4 scenarios.
For instance in the ToO: Greece I will use several chapters.
In the first chapter Platamon I will include 3 (or four) scenarios.
i) One small (only involving the core force in a rearguard action against a beach assault by German commandos).
ii) One medium size involving a village fight on the mountain
iii) One big battle the final German assault (delay action).
iv) perhaps another small or medium scenario concerning the opening or the end of the battle.
The second chapter may include two small battles.
Same thing with the third chapter.
The fourth chapter "battle of Thermopylae" will be much like the "Platamon" chapter with a variety of missions.
cheers,
Pyros
What is important is the size of scenarios...
I would think the majority of African scenarios will be about Battalion size... I guess the length will range from about 25-35 turns...
:OHNO: Uuups. We're talking of alot of scenarios here! I'll probably revert to chess!:whlchr:
I would think the majority of African scenarios will be about Battalion size... I guess the length will range from about 25-35 turns...
Perhaps we may also consider the possibility of some multipath scenarios.:cool:
You know perhaps between two medium to big scenarios we may include two separate LOOPS of 2-3 small scenarios.
This way we may give the player a certain feeling of freedom.
And this could only require a small number of scenarios, that would be played with a different order in each LOOP.
For instance if the small scenarios are the S1, S2, S3, S4 and S5 and the Big scenarios are the B1 and B2, then we may create two routes (with slightly different balance and fix points):
B1 node to S1 or S2
B1 to S1
S1 NODE to S2 or S3
S2 NODE to S4 or S5
S3 NODE S4 or B2
S4, S5 to B2
and another loop
B1 to S2
S2 NODE S3 or B2
S3 NODE S4 or B2
S4 NODE S5 or B2
S5 to B2...
etc... etc... :supper: :broccoli: :nofear:
I can take a hint ;)
No need to make it uneccessarliy big and bulky...
How about 8 scenarios for North Africa...?
Size of scenarios Bn(-), 15-20 turns, minimal Aux forces..., aiming for pretty fast play...
Should there be a desire to throw in some heavier stuff, an additional scenario or two, that would of course be possible...
Mustang19
10 May 06, 19:49
It surprises me that for once I've actually not have enough time to get work done (usually people just say that as an excuse for laziness :lier: ;) ). But fortunately I've just finished the 2nd NZ Division breakout map.
The engagement went something like this: in the north, 19, 20 and 28th Batallion advanced and ran into some enemy infantry at night. 19th Batallion swung south to help their comrades elsewhere that were having trouble, and ran into the 104 Inf Rg. night lagger. They did a bayonet charge, and forced the enemy to rout. In the south, 5th Bde Reserve Group, on vehicles, ran into the 21st Panzer Divison night laager. They lost order because of this surprise contact, but were able to force their way through and around the enemy. This map is big enough to hold both battles, plus the German armored counterattacks that came the next day.
This map is really a rough draft- it has only elevation on it, and no rough terrain. If there's no problems with this draft I'll add some rough and maybe mud or soft sand.
It seems to me that the hard part is map design. Because of the relative scarcity of info on what exactly the Axis units were, and where they were deployed (you don't have to research the ANZAC force because it will be determined by the player's purchases), there isn't much detail that goes into the scenario design itself. If this is true, then it will be possible to create several scenarios off one large map, making it possible to create 20 or so scenarios, historical or hypothetical, for the North Africa campaign.
What would be a good hypothetical one? Maybe a Allied defence of Cairo, or even Palestine or Iraq. I'm not sure, but at least some ANZAC troops may have been involved fighting the Vichy in Syria or the facist rebels in Iraq, and those would be very interesting scenarios to include. With the permission of Wulfir, I'd like to work on an Iraq or Syria scenario.
With the permission of Wulfir, I'd like to work on an Iraq or Syria scenario.
By all means, go ahead. :thumup:
Australian forces were heavily involved in the Syrian campaign...
Mustang19
13 May 06, 19:25
Wulfir, while researching for the Syria scenario I stumbled across a scenario you made for WinSPWW2.
http://pricegrabber.wargamer.com/gamesdepot/details.asp?sid=3895
It's based on the French counterattack at Merdjayoun. I was wondering, what if I made a fall of Damascus scenario and you included the Merdjayoun scenario before it? We could do a "Syria chapter" kind of thing like Pyros was talking about. IMO Syria was a sizeable campaign for the ANZAC that dosen't get enough attention.
We could do a "Syria chapter"....
Why not..., sounds like a good idea, a bit of variation from fighting the German/Italians...:)
However, I think we should do fresh scenarios... - not least because winSPWW2 will include some new stuff like a Vicy French OOB...
(Besides the Merdjayoun-scenario is made to be played as the French, if you plug it into a campaign you'll be fighting on the French side against the Australians.)
If you need help, or have any design questions let me know - if not go right ahead!
Cameronius
16 May 06, 07:23
I'm sure the map from that scenario will be of some value.
Mustang19
21 May 06, 17:28
Here is a map of the Adloun/Innsariye area, site of the 2/27th batallion attack on Vichy positions there. At first I made it with a desert palette, but noticed that not only did I get the elevation majorly wrong but also, from looking at pictures of the area, noticed that I should use the "summer" palette to represent the area. So I reworked the whole map. If you know that this part of Lebanon had desert-like terrain during the time this battle took place (night of 10th June 1941), then no problem- tell me and we will use the alternate desert map that has been made.
I'm trying to get WinSPWW2 downloaded, but it's taking time using a dialup connection. I got the whole thing downloaded, but it turned out the file had been corrupted somehow, so for the past few days I've been letting the computer run into the night and download the thing (GetRight allows you to do this, it allows you to resume downloads even if your computer shuts off in the middle of the download or you log off the internet, www.getright.com ), but the situation is complicated because my parents keep turning off the computer at night. As soon as WinSPWW2 is downloaded, I hope I can start actual scenario design. By the way, does the DL version of the game have a full-function editor?
Mustang19
27 May 06, 18:54
Finally, I have the first scenario for this campaign turned out (the 621 Company one). It's not perfect yet, and there is still playtesting to do on it. This game is based on the assumption that the player will have a force the size of 2 batallions (4000 points) at this point in the game. The problem is balancing the scenario so that the player will have to find and destroy 621 Company while making it a surprise and not just putting a whole bunch of v-hexes there to make him go for it. As it is now, I've tried to do this by giving the Axis-held v-hexes a low value, so that most of the player's points will come from unit kills. The idea is that he has to find the 621 Co HQ and its defences (and kill them) to get enough points to win. The Axis has about half the points of the player, but will hopefully be able to compensate with its Stug IIIs and antitank guns (did the Africa corps have Stug IIIs in widespread use by July 1942, by the way?).
What I ask anyone who reads this to do is to download the scenario, and go into the editor. Included already is the realistic force the ANZAC had in the battle. Delete this force and buy your own worth 4000 points. It can have anything you want- I'm trying to simulate the varied core forces the player would have if he played this mission as part of a campaign. Deploy your units within 10 hexes of the right edge of the map, and then do the mission. Give an AAR and give me whatever advice you have.
Here are the briefings I'm planning on giving this mission.
Intro briefing:
-- 1700 hours, July 9th, 1942, near El Alamein. 9th Australian Division laager. --
The brigade commander called you up for a meeting yesterday. It was a brief warning order telling you about the mission tomorrow, and fairly vague. Just now, though, one of his deputies was sent to get you out of bed and over to the command post. Reluctantly, you crawl off your bunk, climb into your car, and make the short drive over to brigade HQ.
“Good afternoon,” he starts off. “I hope your unit is ready, chap.” You nod and tell him that you’ve prepared your men, and he leads you into a tent. Inside is a map hanging on the wall.
“I told you yesterday that we would perform a small assault before dawn on the 10th. This is going to be the first of General Auchinleck’s attacks in our sector, intended as part of his plan to nip away at the enemy with these minor offensives. Lately, we haven’t been able to lift a finger without Jerry spotting us from those hills to the west. He has good positions there that are allowing him to observe our movements, and now we’re going to deal with this.”
“Starting at 0340 tomorrow, your men are going to take three hilltops and a nearby railway station. Trig 33 is in the south, Trig 22 is in the center, and 24 is farther up to the northwest.” The Colonel points to these places on the map with his finger. “There’s an old telegraph line that the Germans are probably using now near 24. Check out what’s happening there if you have a chance. What you’re tasked to do is clear these hills of the enemy scout outposts, and search the area for any other Germans. Make sure you sweep the whole area. The mission has to be complete by 0600.”
“As for intelligence, we don’t have the foggiest idea what exactly is out there, but operating our area is mostly Italians of the Bersaglieri Regiment and Sabratha Division. Expect a small recon outpost on all of the hills. You might also find some Germans there to stiffen them up. The weather is good, although it will be dark when you start your assault at 0340. By sunrise at 0600, visibility should improve.”
The Colonel takes his eyes of the map and looks directly at you. “Understood?”
“Yes, sir,” you reply. After saluting, you turn to your car and head back to your unit.
Victory debrief:
Brigade HQ congratulates you on a well-planned battle. Your unit has set up observation posts of its own along the high ground, and is now able to monitor the enemy’s every move. In addition, you stumbled across the headquarters of a German intelligence company, the 621 Company. After overrunning its defenses, you quickly called in interpreters to interrogate the prisoners and read captured enemy documents.
As it turns out, you have stumbled across a gold mine of information. It seems the Germans have thorough knowledge of Allied call signs, map reference codes and radio codes, and movements, no doubt due to their poor radio discipline. It also appears that the Germans have broken the American diplomatic code, the “Black Code”, which their ambassadors have been using to send detailed accounts of the Allied situation in North Africa. Even more interesting is the discovery of a German spy ring in Egypt, referred to as the Kondor Mission. Divisional intelligence is already on their way to sort through all of this material, but it already seems that you have gained a major victory for the Allied war effort in North Africa. Well done- and rumor has it that you are up for promotion, also.
Realism note:
Very little information is available on this battle, probably due to the fact that it was a relatively minor engagement and wartime secrecy prevented details from being thoroughly recorded. For example, the exact position of the German intelligence unit, 621 Company, is disputed. Two British battalions, the 2/28 and 2/24, were part of the attack. The 2/24, which was assigned to take Trig 33 in the south, was the one that ran into the 621 Company, which seems to say that the Company was stationed in the south. However, most German accounts of the action claim that 621 Company was “by the sea”, meaning that it may (not) have been farther north. As far as scenario designing goes, it would be much more interesting if the player was tasked to “find” the Company rather than just putting it on the hill and having him run into it during the first few turns. This is why only a small scout group has been set on Trig 33, with the main German force closer to the center-north.
Also, in reality, the Italian units were caught by surprise (it was early in the morning, and several of their officers were reported to have been in pyjamas when the British arrived). Also, the 621 Company position itself was very weak, and did not have any support from armor, bunkers or probably even mortars. The Axis defenses have been significantly modified from their historical form to provide a challenge.
The commander of 621 was a bright young officer named Alfred Seebohm. He was a skilled soldier, having twice extricated his company from Allied hands, and was once a prisoner but managed to escape in January 1942. He was badly wounded in the battle, and died soon after being moved to a military hospital in Alexandria.
Draw:
After two hours, your unit had taken heavy casualties and wasn’t able to continue. The brigade colonel was genuinely disappointed that you couldn’t defeat such a weak enemy force, but at least you were able to make some progress. You haven’t won, and you haven’t lost, but a great opportunity has slipped through your fingers- intelligence reports that a German intelligence company that was operating inside the battle area has been able to retreat, carrying with it classified material and codebooks. If only you had been able to capture this unit, it would have been a major intelligence boon for the whole Allied army in North Africa.
Realism note:
Very little information is available on this battle, probably due to the fact that it was a relatively minor engagement and wartime secrecy prevented details from being thoroughly recorded. For example, the exact position of the German intelligence unit, the 621 Company, is disputed. Two British batallions, the 2/28 and 2/24, were part of the attack. The 2/24, which was assigned to take Trig 33 in the south, was the one that ran into the 621 Company, which seems to say that the Company was stationed in the south. However, most German accounts of the action claim that 621 Company was “by the sea”, meaning that it may (not) have been farther north. As far as scenario designing goes, it would be much more interesting if the player was tasked to “find” the Company rather than just putting it on the hill and having him run into it during the first few turns. This is why only a small scout group has been set on Trig 33, with the main German force closer to the center-north.
Also, in reality, the Italian units were caught by surprise (it was early in the morning, and several of their officers were reported to have been in pyjamas when the British arrived). Also, the 621 Company position itself was very weak, and did not have any support from armor, bunkers or probably even mortars. The Axis defenses have been significantly modified from their historical form to provide a challenge.
The commander of 621 was a bright young officer named Alfred Seebohm. He was a skilled soldier, having twice extricated his company from Allied hands, and was once a prisoner but managed to escape in January 1942. He was badly wounded in the battle, and died soon after being moved to a military hospital in Alexandria.
Loss:
The assault was a miserable failure. Whatever progress you had made was not enough to please HQ, which has ordered your unit to withdraw and regroup. Not only this, but after the battle you learned that a great opportunity has slipped through your fingers. Intelligence reports that a German intelligence company was operating in the area and retreated to the rear, carrying with it classified material and codebooks. If you had been able to capture it, the Allies would have received a major advantage in the battle for North Africa.
Realism note:
Very little information is available on this battle, probably due to the fact that it was a relatively minor engagement and wartime secrecy prevented details from being thoroughly recorded. For example, the exact position of the German intelligence unit, the 621 Company, is disputed. Two British battalions, the 2/28 and 2/24, were part of the attack. The 2/24, which was assigned to take Trig 33 in the south, was the one that ran into the 621 Company, which seems to say that the Company was stationed in the south. However, most German accounts of the action claim that 621 Company was “by the sea”, meaning that it may (not) have been farther north. As far as scenario designing goes, it would be much more interesting if the player was tasked to “find” the Company rather than just putting it on the hill and having him run into it during the first few turns. This is why only a small scout group has been set on Trig 33, with the main German force closer to the center-north.
Also, in reality, the Italian units were caught by surprise (it was early in the morning, and several of their officers were reported to have been in pyjamas when the British arrived). Also, the 621 Company position itself was very weak, and did not have any support from armor, bunkers or probably even mortars. The Axis defenses have been significantly modified from their historical form to provide a challenge.
The commander of 621 was a bright young officer named Alfred Seebohm. He was a skilled soldier, having twice extricated his company from Allied hands, and was once a prisoner but managed to escape in January 1942. He was badly wounded in the battle, and died soon after being moved to a military hospital in Alexandria.
...(did the Africa corps have Stug IIIs in widespread use by July 1942, by the way?).
Mustang,
I'm cool with the use of StuGs but if you want to go down the historical path you want to change them to Italian Semovente's instead (sp?)..., the DAK had something like 3 StuG's in Africa (part of an unusual formation known as Sonderverband 288)... but IIRC they lost one of those upon unloading it from the transport ship... some crane broke and it fell into the harbour water...
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