Hello SES

[Wodin]

Well all I can say is hello SES;)

Below is something I posted in another forum its about a different game altogether. It has relevance here.


"If I was the developer of a wargame and before it was even released people where slaging it off I would find it very demoralising.

If your a true wargamer then you should be supporting all indy developers, even if you dont buy the game at least post something positive on the forums.

REMEMBER PC game sales are dying in the mainstream and if we want our hobby to continue on the PC we need these indy developers to continue aswell as make the wargame community developer freindly."


I wish you had done WW1 first but hey you didnt. Im not going to slag you off for it. Infact I very pleased to see Norm back and wish him every success.


Just one bit of advice. Follow Scot Hamilton from HPS. He will not join a forum. I now can see the reason why. You and Jim should stay waway from the forums altogether. Just have contact through email. Its very easy to get drawn into certain threads and in the heat of the moment you could easly damage you profile. Join fourms under an alias with no mention of SES.

So all the luck of the Irish with your new game.

Jason

[Lempereur1]

Thanks for your support!

Actually, we enjoy answering questions when we can.

I have known Scott Hamilton since I first meet him in 1993. Scott does his thing well. He really doesnt have time to get on the forums.

We will be hiring very soon and we hope to have a support person stopping by from time to time to answer questions. If you like WWI naval warfare, you will like Distant Guns..... The ships are slightly smaller, but the battles feel very much like WWI. The game is awesome!

[Wodin]

Love your avator.

[chetnikk]

If your a true wargamer then you should be supporting all indy developers, even if you dont buy the game at least post something positive on the forums.


So what you're looking for is a forum where the toughest question a developer is asked would be, "How may I serve you, my liege?"

If the only reason for addressing developers is to flatter them, it would be far simpler to just replace the forum with an auto-obsequious perl script that, when developers pressed a button, would dispense varied amounts of pre-recorded sycophancy. That this would reduce them to the status of rodents in a psych experiment would probably be less important than reducing the number of discouraging words they'd need to hear.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments that developers ought not to patronize forums. It's simply an exercise in futility for all concerned. No one can ask a tough question or express a real criticism, because the developers tuck tail and run, and the moderator swiftly moves to shut down such threads (and ban the miscreants who dare propose them) because they tend to scare off these sainted developers.

And so the neat circle closes.

John R.

[chetnikk]

The same type of attacks were leveled at us when we were making games at
Talonsoft. Were used to it....:]

Is it possible to express an honest criticism of one of your products?

Or, to your mind, is every such expression an "attack?"

John R.

[nemo]

What's that? Troll season again? :gas:

[Binder]

So what you're looking for is a forum where the toughest question a developer is asked would be, "How may I serve you, my liege?"

If the only reason for addressing developers is to flatter them, it would be far simpler to just replace the forum with an auto-obsequious perl script that, when developers pressed a button, would dispense varied amounts of pre-recorded sycophancy. That this would reduce them to the status of rodents in a psych experiment would probably be less important than reducing the number of discouraging words they'd need to hear.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments that developers ought not to patronize forums. It's simply an exercise in futility for all concerned. No one can ask a tough question or express a real criticism, because the developers tuck tail and run, and the moderator swiftly moves to shut down such threads (and ban the miscreants who dare propose them) because they tend to scare off these sainted developers.

And so the neat circle closes.

John R.

You seriously need to lighten up.

[timetraveller]

Is it possible to express an honest criticism of one of your products?

Or, to your mind, is every such expression an "attack?"

John R.

The problem is that you guys don't come here to discuss, you come here to argue. And you want never ending, inflammatory argument. Maybe you should join a debating team?

For this particular game, at this particular time, the copy protection argument is pointless. The game is virtually complete, the copy protection scheme is set. It's a done deal, man. Don't beat the dead horse anymore. You have two choices, as I see it. Sit in a corner and pout about protection schemes, or buy the game when it comes out shortly and have fun with it, which is what the rest of us are going to do.

I come to these forums for fun, not for never ending argument and bad feelings and the chaos that trolling type of "debate" brings. I'm an old guy who has seen enough of this crap in my life. I come to these kinds of forums to see what I can get out of a game, how I can mod it if possible, how I can tweak it, how I can get more out of it. And I come for the comradery of people who enjoy the same.

If you can't take some joy out of this upcoming game, express some wonder and interest in what might be possible, then there's always Usenet for you. The rest of us here are excited and anxious to try DG.

timetraveller

[Jim Cobb]

I think developers should go to forums if they have time. Ron Dockal,Major H., Pat Procter, the guys from Slytherine, etc are exteremly helpful.

Naturally, they should watch out for crud.

[chetnikk]

The problem is that you guys don't come here to discuss, you come here to argue. And you want never ending, inflammatory argument. Maybe you should join a debating team?


What, precisely, defines the difference between "discussion" and "argument?"

My suspicion is that your definition is along the lines of, "fawning=discussion=good," and "criticism=argument=bad." This is pretty handy, in that it allows you to dismiss anything you choose to as "argument" and get on with the business of Happy Chat, but it's not a serious viewpoint.


For this particular game, at this particular time, the copy protection argument is pointless. The game is virtually complete, the copy protection scheme is set. It's a done deal, man. Don't beat the dead horse anymore.


Your argument here, though, is a fairly juvenile one. Essentially, you're saying that the moment any decision is made, it's invalidated as a topic of discussion, and any debate must end. The real world doesn't work this way.


You have two choices, as I see it. Sit in a corner and pout about protection schemes, or buy the game when it comes out shortly and have fun with it, which is what the rest of us are going to do.


Actually, there's a third choice, "Hold the developers feet to the fire whenever possible, so that both they /and other developers/ see the downside of user-hostile protection schemes and perhaps make better choices in the future."


I come to these forums for fun, not for never ending argument and bad feelings and the chaos that trolling type of "debate" brings. I'm an old guy who has seen enough of this crap in my life. I come to these kinds of forums to see what I can get out of a game, how I can mod it if possible, how I can tweak it, how I can get more out of it. And I come for the comradery of people who enjoy the same.


This may sound callous, but not everyone's /raison d'etre/ is to optimize the happiness of your online experience. And I'm hardly alone in expressing serious reservations about the user-hostile protection scheme.

John R.

[Jim Cobb]

+----------+
| Please |
| Do Not |
| Feed The |
| Trolls |
+----------+
| |
| |
.\|.||/..

[Bloodstar]

+----------+
| Please |
| Do Not |
| Feed The |
| Trolls |
+----------+
| |
| |
.\|.||/.. Yes, chetnik is plonked from now on. Just ignore him, don't throw him any cookies, he will just grow in size and then we will have to call Dan Akroyd and Ghostbusters! Mario

[timetraveller]

What, precisely, defines the difference between "discussion" and "argument?"

My suspicion is that your definition is along the lines of, "fawning=discussion=good," and "criticism=argument=bad." This is pretty handy, in that it allows you to dismiss anything you choose to as "argument" and get on with the business of Happy Chat, but it's not a serious viewpoint.



Your argument here, though, is a fairly juvenile one. Essentially, you're saying that the moment any decision is made, it's invalidated as a topic of discussion, and any debate must end. The real world doesn't work this way.



Actually, there's a third choice, "Hold the developers feet to the fire whenever possible, so that both they /and other developers/ see the downside of user-hostile protection schemes and perhaps make better choices in the future."



This may sound callous, but not everyone's /raison d'etre/ is to optimize the happiness of your online experience. And I'm hardly alone in expressing serious reservations about the user-hostile protection scheme.

John R.


What I said. You just proved my point. Never ending.

TT

[Jim Cobb]

Looking for Plonk button.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Looking for Plonk button.

UserCP -> Misc -> Buddy/Ignore List

[Wodin]

oh bu##er!

I didnt want to stir up trouble on this thread.

[Jim Cobb]

It's not you, buddy.

[Bullethead]

UserCP -> Misc -> Buddy/Ignore List

THANK YOU, SIR!

Damn if it didn't work. I came back here after reading this and applying it to chetnikk, and all his posts are now 1-liners with just his name and a link to remove him from my "plonked" list.

Whatcha drinking? I'll buy you a round for that helpful tip :).

[Aries]

I think what I see in Wodin's original thought process (he can correct me if I am wrong), is there is a potential danger any time a software maker wades in on discussions.

Fact 1, they have to appear like serious businessmen, or else they damage their air of credibility the moment they become "human" and behave like the rest of us.

Fact 2, I can act like a serious and mature individual that has a genuine concern for a product, or I can just be a jerk. But whether I act like a gentleman or a nutjob, I am not putting my OWN product at risk, and thus I have nothing to lose being the bad mouthing sod if I wish to be.
Granted, people tend to tune out anything that is clearly over the top nasty. I for instance find it odd when anyone actually listens to anything I say about Paraodox :)

I have been treated to some fairly limited logic comments from the MMP members of the ASL forum community for instance. As a result I really don't possess any good will towards them, and as a result, none towards the company.
It doesn't prevent me from claiming that ASL is the greatest tactical WW2 squad level board game ever made.
But the thing is, my lacking in respect for the personel associated with the company means I couldn't care less if they are harmed commercially through various real issues such as piracy.

I have nothing but glowing praise for some members of the wargaming community though. And that translates into die hard support.
Some will inevitably decide that die hard means fanatic fanboy.

Thus, a person has to establish a known reputation, and that reputation is about all the person has to work with when it comes to comments associated with them.

Software makers need to have a voice for their goods, but at the same time, they don't want to become mired in PR duties that ideally are best delegated to someone that can more easily provide the time.
A developers journal is likely as close as I would want to get if it was my burden to address.

I have myself witnessed game makers fall prey to the mob demanding immediate responses to every last niggling suggestion or request. And while every fan might have something useful to say, the trouble is if you answer the first 5 questions on a slow day, and then fail to respond to the next 5, you get failing marks, and everyone forgets you answered the first 5.
This is a trend that can become a trap. Because if you were quite responsive on product A, but can't be very communicative with product B, suddenly you become accused of suddenly abandoning the "loyal fans" that helped make product A so great supposedly through their interaction.

Yes I have seen this occur. Ask Hubert Cater of Strategic Command 2 if he wishes he could just disappear till release day of SC2 :)

It's a definite dangerous road to walk for people that make software.
You have to be careful that you don't end up becoming a slave to a forum.
I can leave this forum for a week and nothing negative will actually result other than some "might" wonder where I went.
But the second a software maker goes silent, suddenly the rumor mills start churning out all manner of stories often with no connection to reality.

I've pretty much established a persona online that will never likely actually die.
If tomorrow I decided to craft a wargame for the market, and I went to an online option to support it, you can assume it would be under an assumed name, and no one would be given any knowledge I was the same person.
I wouldn't want to be dragging Les around while trying to promote the product :)

[Lempereur1]

:laugh: When I was at Avalon Hill, they still had a policy that all questions written in had to be answerable with only one word. Yes ot No!!

This policy started way back in 1963 and was in effect until Hasbro bought them out. The had so many games to civer, that it was impossible to answer questions any other way...

Jim Rose

[Lempereur1]

Presto!

And the trolls are gone!

Amazing.....

[Jim Cobb]

Yes, but can you answer Wodin's question? I know him to be an honorable man.

[Reiryc]

I think developers should go to forums if they have time. Ron Dockal,Major H., Pat Procter, the guys from Slytherine, etc are exteremly helpful.

Naturally, they should watch out for crud.

Good point...

You'll find also the guys with matrix games and other developers such as eric young also answering questions or providing feedback on their design decisions or answering technical questions.

[Wodin]

Aries,

Yes your on the button.

Jim Cobb,

Thanks for the kind remark.

[Wodin]

Lempereur1,

I hope you dont think Im a troll!

Its just that if I was a developer I'd NOT get involved with trading bad/negative posts with other forum members even if they are insulting.

I'd let them hang themselves in the eyes of the forum.

Your company has made a decision that some dont like. It happens often. Try not to take it to personnel. A short statement is all thats needed and make it clear thats the last time you will post on the subject. Also make it clear that all customers points are taken into consideration and the pros and cons are weighed up.


Anway this is turning into a big deal again.

Im happy if the thread gets locked if it degenerates.

[Reckall]

Software makers need to have a voice for their goods, but at the same time, they don't want to become mired in PR duties that ideally are best delegated to someone that can more easily provide the time.
A developers journal is likely as close as I would want to get if it was my burden to address.

I have myself witnessed game makers fall prey to the mob demanding immediate responses to every last niggling suggestion or request. And while every fan might have something useful to say, the trouble is if you answer the first 5 questions on a slow day, and then fail to respond to the next 5, you get failing marks, and everyone forgets you answered the first 5.


This is a problem as old as the internet itself, and actually is not a problem at all, but only a sum of misconceptions.

Listening to what the customers have to say doesn't mean heeding them. It also doesn't mean heeding to the majority at all. 999 guys can agree on an issue, a single one disagrees, and you could very well think: "this one has a point". More: 999 guys can be total idiots who spend their whole day trolling, and that lone, single guy has still a point. Also the opposite is true: if something in a popular field raises popular concerns, I feel that it is at least prudent to analyze them with a little bit of discernment before recognizing/refusing the issue.

At the end it is always your freedom and responsibility to choose what to heed, what to answer and what to ignore. True, Usenet is raw. True, it is full of trolls, bad words and polemics. True, I ignore them all, going instead for the many gems that it has to offer.

As a guy who lives selling products of my creativity to the public, even in a different field, I have no need of adoring yesmen. If I feel that the barking steems from personal biases and/or different views regarding how something should be done, my mental "ignore" button is only a neuron away - but I will never renounce to the unvaluable possibility that a collection of critics will come out with something really enlightening - something I never thought of. The kind of honesty, sensibility and objectivity that I struggle to put in my review is the kind of honesty, sensibility and objectivity that I hope to find in reviews done by others about my work. I find it only fair. Beside, it makes all more meaningful when someone finally says "Wow!" about something you have done :)

The best part about "freedom of expression" is that you can freely express your right to make choices, and this is true when choosing who to heed to, too :)

[cwmark]

Just popped in to say hi and that I'm looking forward to Distant Guns being released soon:)

If you must know, my interest in this period of history stems from my childhood - a school trip to Commodore Dewey's flagship USS Olympia. Since then I've always had a certain fascination with ships of this period - they just oozed atmosphere!

Perhaps a expansion covering the naval battles and colonial wars of this period? Everything from the Opium Wars (Chinese vs British), Battle of Lissa (Italy vs Austria), American Civil War, Sino-Japanese War (1894-95), and Spanish-American War.

From what I've seen of your impressive 3D modeling abilities, it shouldn't be too much xtra effort to create Chinese War Junks or British East Indiamen or the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia, USS New Ironsides, the HMS Warrior, the French Gloire... well you get the idea:)

Of course a scenario editor to recreate those what-if games as well couldn't hurt!

I guess you can tell I'm pretty excited here:love:

[Lempereur1]

I welcome your questions. As Storm Eagle grows I will be available less and less to post.

Why did Norm and I pick the Russo-Japanese war? Because that is what we wanted to do! We do this because we love what we are doing and we have the financial resources to develop what ever we wish!

If you dont like the ballistics model, or you think the ships sink to fast or too slow, the torpedoes do not do enough damage, these are ligitimate topics of discussion.