Norm's Place

[NormKoger]

Hello guys,

I figured it was about time to start making appearances here, so...

A lot of folks seem to wonder why we decided to focus on the Russo-Japanese War for our first title. It's a fair question. The conflict isn't all that well known in our part of the world. Clearly, it doesn't have the market tested sales potential of World War II, the American Civil War, Napoleonics, or even World War I. I've received a few fairly nasty emails from folks who are actually angry that we are wasting our development time on the RJW when we could be doing something _fun_. What in the world were Norm and Jim thinking?

Well, you see, I have a serious fascination with the Russo-Japanese War.

Jim likes a good, obscure conflict as well as most gamers. He's familiar enough with military history that he finds it interesting to examine something that he hasn't been steeped in since childhood. Most of us who think of ourselves wargamers eventually reach that point. We don't start that way. I, myself, once considered anything before about 1941 to be painfully tedious. Then sometime in the mid 1970's I ran across SPI's magazine games. It took a few years, but I eventually came to realize that some very cool history happened before Adolf and uncle Joe started their little altercation. I was primed and ready.

In 1974, quite by accident, I ended up with a copy of Denis and Peggy Warner's "The Tide at Sunrise." Without anything more interesting on the "unread stack", and without a great deal of enthusiasm, I began to read. Much to my surprise, I found myself immersed in a story of heroes and villains, giants and petty fools, rising and setting suns, emperors and the children of gods.

If you haven't read a good history of the Russo-Japanese War, there just isn't any way to understand how fantastic the thing was.

For the Russians, it was a campaign at the end of the Earth. In 1904, it took three weeks to travel by train from Moscow to the nearest area of the war zone. Three weeks. At the end of the rails were Port Arthur, Vladivostok, and the even more remote outpost of Nikolayevsk. It is amazing that the Russians managed to base a formidable fleet and army there in time of peace, much less fight a war. The men who ran Russia's most remote outposts could all have been created by storytellers. Some were hateful and worse than useless, others noble and competent. All of them were interesting.

And the Japanese? Over the space of half a century, they had by sheer will pulled themselves from feudal barbarism - completely impotent in the face of even the smallest of Western powers - to become the strongest nation on their side of the planet. Boys born into a world of swords and spears were sent abroad, returning home to become fiercely competent leaders of a modern army and navy created from scratch over the course of a single lifetime. A people who firmly believed their emperor to be descended from a god prepared to seize their rightful place among nations. As with the Russians, the ranks of the Japanese army and navy were filled with fascinating characters.

The land campaign was massive, bloody, and punctuated by sharp battles. 400,000 troops were sent into action at Mukden. The issue was most directly decided on land. But the heart of the war was the naval campaign. Unlike the Russians, the Japanese had no rail line running from Tokyo to the theater of battle. Every soldier, blanket, and bullet had to be moved by sea. The Russians knew this, thus their fleet at Port Arthur and Vladivostok. While they honestly expected a decisive triumph over Japan's new navy, they also knew such a victory was not necessary. All they had to do was disrupt the Japanese shipping lifeline, and the weight of Russian arms would inevitably carry the day. The Japanese were also aware of this fact. On the eve of war, the Japanese admiral told his assembled staff that they had to prepare to "win one hundred victories in one hundred battles."* Togo knew that he had to perform perfectly to prevent Russian victory.

Knowing that the main threat was the Port Arthur force, the bulk of the Japanese navy set up a blockade of that base. This left only enough available naval forces to engage in a cat and mouse game against the Russian Vladivostok squadron. Again and again, the cruisers based at Vladivostok sortied against the Japanese supply lifeline as the main fleet occupied the Togo's attentions, knowing that they were no match for the strength the Japanese could spare to throw at them. If just for the actions of the Vladivostok squadron, the war would be memorable. But the story that elevates this conflict from "interesting" to "epic" is the voyage of the Second Pacific Squadron.

I can't even begin to cover that story here. Perhaps in a future post. Hopefully, a few bare facts will give some hint of the magnificent effort of the Russian Baltic fleet's voyage. The route covered 18000 miles, down the Atlantic coast of Africa and across the Indian Ocean. There were no friendly bases to assist on the way. At the end of the trip, 8 months after leaving home waters, the entire force was destroyed in a single battle. Odysseus and his boys sailed across one side of a small, sheltered sea. A few thousand years later, we still read their story in school. Homer's talents were wasted on them. Imagine what he could have done with the story of the Russian Second Pacific Squadron: morning prayers on the decks of the ships, monkeys stealing icons and jumping overboard, an executive officer who knows of the Admiral's habit of throwing binoculars overboard when angry, and arranges to have an entire case of binoculars brought aboard the flagship before its departure...

Much is made of the claim that this was the first "modern" war. There were trenches and machine guns, battleships, torpedoes, and submarines. That is all very interesting, but it is not the reason I find the period so compelling. The thing that really draws me to the RJW is that fact that it is the last war that seems fit to be described by a poet.

Why to Russo-Japanese War? Because the opportunity existed, and I just couldn't pass it up.

*"One hundred victories in one hundred battles..." Interestingly enough, this was more than a mission statement. It was also a reference to the failure of diplomacy. Sun Tsu: "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill."

[Leftie]

Fascinating stuff!! I look forward to the release of your game.


Ben

[Neutrino 123]

Hello, I've recently been reading several books about the Russo-Japanese War, so I'm very glad that this topic was chosen for the first game. My schedule is set up to download it within 8 hours maximum of the release...:)

Will this be the 'official' forum for Distant Guns?

[Rhetor]

I consider the Russo - Japanese war to be a good choice for a first test of the engine. I will certainly do my best to sink the Japanese fleet in "Distant Guns".

I do hope, however, that in few years time I will be able take command of von Hipper's battle cruisers and beat the hell out of the Royal Navy... or the Russian Baltic fleet :-D (yes, there were fierce battles on the Baltic in 1914 - 1917, which are even less known in the West than the Russo - Japanese war... I believe the only event known to the Western people is the fateful sinking of the cruiser "Magdeburg")

[liuzg150181]

Wow,Norm Koger coming to post here~~~:surprise:
Thx for the intro Norm,i would say that it seems you have convinced a handful of the charm of that era,of course i am now awaiting the remake of the other masterpiece of yours-TOAW:CoW Matrix Edition~~~:devious:

[Sol Invictus]

Great to see you here Norm. I must admit that I was one of those people that had some doubts as to the subject of your new game. I still have my doubts, but that stems from the fact that I am really not into naval conflict. If this game covered the land campaign, than I would be an automatic buyer. I may still buy Distant Guns, but it will be very iffy. I look forward to seeing what land conflicts you guys decide to cover in the future. I recently aquired a copy of Age of Rifle and have been playing that over the last month. Still a great game after all of these years. Heres hoping that you get around to covering the Russo-Japanese, Austro-Prussian, Franco-Prussian, or some similar conflict in a more dedicated and thorough manner than these conflicts were covered in AOR.

[Wodin]

Norm,

We can all relate to an obsession over one particular conflict. Mine being WW1.

IF I had the talent I would set out to make a WW1 game and damn what others think.

You make the era sound very interesting ideed "I found myself immersed in a story of heroes and villains, giants and petty fools, rising and setting suns, emperors and the children of gods" and " the men who ran Russia's most remote outposts could all have been created by storytellers. Some were hateful and worse than useless, others noble and competent. All of them were interesting".

There is something about the game that has sparked an interest. Im going to see how people review it and then make a decision.

However you can be sure I will be buying one or more of your future games.

Its good to see a great talent back in action. PC wargaming is far better for it.

[Lempereur1]

Fellow Gamers:

We have no current plans to make this an offical forum, per say, but rather a starting point to build on. Norm and I will be happy to stop by any forums hosted on almost any site, provided that it is all achieved with happy gaming as the outcome.

If you would like us to stop by at a forum near you, please email us at info@stormeaglestudios.com

We encourage fan sites. We feel that these are essential to the long term health of any game series. We have a fan site package available for download on our website if anyone would like to partake. We will also add your site to our list of fan sites as well.

If you would like to download them, please go to out press kit office at stormeaglestudios.com.

[nemo]

Most interesting post, gives a lot of background to the upcoming game. Thanks for sharing.

Marc

[Sgt_Rock]

Norm, really enjoyed your TAOW game.

While I am not a RTS guy for the most part your new game really looks great.

Any ship game needs some decent graphics and yours looks really good.

Question: what naval period will you model next? We have seen Age of Sail I and II. What about the Ironclad era? Its never been done on computer before and Talonsoft had an ad out for it before they dropped the title. Its one of my all-time favorite periods, Ironclads by Yacquinto being one of my favorite boardgames.

Good luck with your game! Its always good to see good folks like you out there putting new stuff together.

[Lohengrin]

Great choice for your naval sim, Norm! The RJW set the table for the naval engagements of WWI and is a natural starting place for 20th century naval conflict. As your narrative above suggests, the RJW has a lot of color and background, not least of which is the magnificent sight of coal smoke-belching battleships engaged in fleet action.

Can't wait for "Distant Guns". :love:

[NormKoger]

Norm, really enjoyed your TAOW game.
Question: what naval period will you model next? What about the Ironclad era?

Good luck with your game! Its always good to see good folks like you out there putting new stuff together.

Thanks.

We plan to bounce around a bit. The details are still up in the air. Jim and I have discussed the ironclad era. It might be fun, but I need to do a bit more research to make sure there is enough there to make for an interesting game.

Speaking of "modeling" and "putting new stuff together", I like to surround myself with visual encouragement when I'm working on a game. Every now and then, when I begin to feel like banging my head against the monitor, I shift over to the side of my desk to work with a bit of plastic, brass, and resin for a while. A couple of years ago, I finished up a 1/700 collection of the Russian Vladivostok Independent Cruiser Squadron. It sits on the shelf behind my desk. You can take a peek here: www.stormeaglestudios.com/pr_images/Norm/Vladsquad2.jpg

[Bullethead]

Well, you see, I have a serious fascination with the Russo-Japanese War.

I'm glad somebody besides me feels that way. The whole war, both on land and at sea, is my favorite conflict of history. It's just been nearly impossible to find games covering it specifically, and even harder to find somebody interested in playing one with me.

My reasons for liking this conflict so much stem from the vast variety of the naval tech employed at the time, thanks to everything having changed so fast in the years leading up to it. Plus, the styling of the ships, with their cowl ventilators and decorative ironwork, tumblehome, towering military masts, etc., just appeals to me. That, plus their fragility (in terms of lack of underwater protection, silly armor distribution schemes, etc.) and the short battle ranges make for highly fluid, quickly changing, and spectacularly destructive battles. Plus, the land campaign had some truly epic battles that mixed WW1 tech with Franco-Prussian War tactics and Vauban-era fortress assaults. What's not to like? :laugh:

I worked with Paul Shaffer for many years on his Raider Operations game. I managed to convince him to work the RJW into it and we had lots of fun with that, within the limits of that engine. I've been jonesing for it ever since we parted ways about 5 years ago. Thanks for doing an RJW game for me.

[Cougar_DK]

Norm, I'm really happy that you have decided to do something that hasn't been done yet. And I really like game designers, like the guys behind Lock On/Flaming Cliff and Oleg for IL-2, that starts out with something deviating from the mainstream trend. To bad people always complain though, but like me, the could learn something new ;)

[2054172]

I will also give it the once or twice over and purchase if it's all that you and the TOAW boys think it will be.:smoke:

[cameronian]

Hello guys,

I figured it was about time to start making appearances here, so...
.


Well, Well, what a surprise. The great Koger finally comes down from the holy mountain to honour us with his presence.
I'm sure that Distant Guns will be a huge success but you'll excuse me Norm if I don't buy it. You seem to have a habit of designing really great games like Age of Rifles (remember that one) and then when you get bored just wandering off and leaving entire communities of gamers behind without a by-your-leave. Now this is your prerogative Norm but it's also bloody bad manners so, thanks for the guest appearance but once you've maximised sales I don't think we'll be seeing too much of you, right?

[Blackcloud6]

seem to have a habit of designing really great games like Age of Rifles (remember that one) and then when you get bored just wandering off and leaving entire communities of gamers behind without a by-your-leave. Now this is your prerogative Norm but it's also bloody bad manners so

And why do you think he owes you his personal presence after designing a game? I don't recall the desginer of Panzer Blitz ever calling me to see if I like the game.

[JAMiAM]

Sounds like somebody (cameronian) has a major chip on his shoulder, an axe to grind, and is a crass hypocrite, to boot. He derides Norm for coming down from his "holy mountain to honour us with his presence" and babbles on about communities left in the lurch, yet he wasn't even a member of this one, before he registered with the transparent motive of launching his rather pathetic diatribe.

[MajorH]

Sounds like somebody (cameronian) has a major chip on his shoulder, an axe to grind, and is a crass hypocrite, to boot.

In his profile he lists www.madminutegames.com as his home page, though I doubt that he is one of the MadMinute developers. I did a quick search and did not find him beating up on Koger at the MadMinute web site. Guess he prefers other playgrounds for this sort of behaviour.

[Don Maddox]

Please, if you have a point to make that may be a hard-hitting criticism, that's fine. But I would ask that you do it with some tact. Most game developers never interact with the community at all save for Q&As done through major gaming sites. In this particular case Norm and Jim have elected to come here and answer questions in person, so I would ask that members treat visiting developers/publishers with a degree of respect.

Again, developers and publishers are not immune from criticism here and I am certain they do value feedback from the community. But please make an honest attempt to provide constructive feedback whenever possible.

[Neutrino 123]

It's just that some people are extremely opposed to many forms of copy protecton. Combined with the fact the Norm Koger is generally well-liked designer, and you have many highly annoyed people.

However, these fears about lack of support and troubles of copy protection seem greatly exaggerated to me.

On the issue of support, Age of Rifles seems to have gotten a fair amount of patches, so even if the designer did not give continually support like for Tacops and Europa Universalis I&II, this certainly qualifies as a 'decent' level of support. Furthermore, the Distant Guns engine will remain in Norm Koger's hands, with plans for multiple sequels. This means we can probably expect more support then his previous titles (and the more recent The Operational Art of War seemed quite well-supported to me).

On the matter of copy-protection, the downsides seem fairly small to me. This is not Starforce (though it did not affect me, there are enough problems with people having copy trouble that concerns about it seem legitimate), so systems failures should not take place. The license transfer utility should allow the small portion of people that play on multiple machines to do so with hardly more effort then removing/inserting a USB hard drive.

The main trouble with the license/activation scheme would be if the license was lost due to a general system crash (that prevents any accessing of files). The files from these crashed hard discs can be restored by experts, but presumably you want not want to do this just to get your Distant Guns license (it would probably cost more then the license...).

Now, let us ASSUME that Storm Eagle does not have some sort of contingancy in place to give another copy of the license to people who lost their first one in some accident. Exactly how bad would this license-losing be for the average customer?

First off, we must obtain the probability of a TOTAL system crash during the time period in which the customer plays Distant Guns (for customers that stop playing a game for awhile and then come back to it, I would recommend transfering the license away from the computer during this time period). For calculations sake, let us go with the extremely high figure of 10% during that period. The crash will be, on average, halfway through the time in which the game is being played. The, the average reduction is gaming happiness will be one half for the customers that crash. Combined with the above, and the gaming happiness reduction for people who have a 10% chance of total system failure is 5% (and they could just double the cost by purchasing another copy, and this option further reduces the gaming hapiness drop). The conclusion is that even with several assumingtions in favor of gaming sadness, there was only a 5% drop in gaming happiness, or to put it another way, the game was 95% as good as it would be without the copy protection in these conditions (and again, ~100% if the first assumption turns out to be incorrect).

Meanwhile, copy-protection can be a benefit to honest games. Most pirates, it is true, will not buy that game assuming they couldn't pirate it (hell, for a wargame, they will probably barely play it since 'thinking' is required:cheeky: ). However, a portion of them would indeed buy the game ("oh this game looks good, but first I'll see if I can get it for free":devil: ). Though pirating is unlikely to have a massive impact on sales, it CAN be a signifigant factor [I heard that pirating in Dangerous Waters (an excellent modern naval combat game) gave a noticable sale loss, and it seems strange that so many companies would invest in copy-protection for no benifits]. For a game to have sequels, it is important, of course, that the game does well.:)

[cameronian]

In his profile he lists www.madminutegames.com as his home page, though I doubt that he is one of the MadMinute developers. I did a quick search and did not find him beating up on Koger at the MadMinute web site. Guess he prefers other playgrounds for this sort of behaviour.

It is impolite to use the third person when you could easily use my tag, 'Cameronian'. I'm certainlty not a mad minute developer (I didn't say I was) though I'm a regular contributor to that site and have been since it opened way before release of TC1. I was also a founder member and moderator of the Greatest Battles (WNLB and ANGV) boards. I've been a keen war gamer for almost forty years and a regular AOR player since it's release. You've never heard of me, well my dear Sir, nor I you.

My point - lost among the rather self righteous huffing and puffing above (MajorH, JAMIAM) - is this.
If Norm Koger wants to design a game and make a buck then walk away, fine, good for him, I wish him well, but I'm not playing because now, there are other ways of doing things. Look at how the two designers over at MMG relate and interact with their community (and they have day jobs too dammit!) and contrast that with the somewhat Prima Donna'ish behaviour of Mr. Koger, who, let it be known, declines even to reply to the emails and petition sent him by the members, scenario designers and players over at the official AOR site.

Sorry, but if bad manners is unacceptable in children then it is doubly so in adults. Enjoy Distant Guns (it does look very good indeed) just don't expect too much support when the designer becomes bored and wanders off to the next project that's all.

[Blackcloud6]

Sorry, but if bad manners is unacceptable in children then it is doubly so in adults

Maybe sir, you should read that line again, slowly.

[Redwolf]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but what Norm described what the copy protection allows and doesn't allow is rather on the "light" side, isn't it.

Transfer to new computer without contacting the developer and without being online, if I understood that correctly.

Of course it still only affects the honest customers and the pirates use a crack, but it could be worse for the paying customers.

[MajorH]

It is impolite to use the third person when you could easily use my tag ... You've never heard of me, well my dear Sir, nor I you. ... self righteous huffing and puffing above (MajorH, JAMIAM) ... if bad manners is unacceptable in children then it is doubly so in adults.

You get back what you give. :smoke:

[Reckall]

Meanwhile, copy-protection can be a benefit to honest games. Most pirates, it is true, will not buy that game assuming they couldn't pirate it (hell, for a wargame, they will probably barely play it since 'thinking' is required:cheeky: ). However, a portion of them would indeed buy the game ("oh this game looks good, but first I'll see if I can get it for free":devil: ).

Pirates, as a matter of fact, do crack copy-protection schemes, know where to download games (even wargames), and play/sell pirated games without having a single problem. Half Life 2 was available in a "Steamless" pirated version ten days after the game was published - so much for the legit customers that *had* to depend on Steam.

Anyway, if we talk about a copy-protection method for the legit user, then why don't simply use the good old activation code like Matrix does? While I understand that having the *possibility* to update the game via internet could be a cool thing, it should not be mandatory. This is the whole point of the "remote activation" debate.

[KeithV]

If I may make a suggestion / beg you....please consider WWI for the follow-up to Distant Guns (which I will buy on the first day its released, BTW). I have spent the past YEAR listening (over and over again) to the unabridged audiobook version of "Castles of Steel" by Robert Massie and must say that it is as interesting a time for naval warfare as the Russo-Japanese War was 11 years eariler. Please sir, I BEG you to consider it......

[Bloodstar]

If I may make a suggestion / beg you....please consider WWI for the follow-up to Distant Guns (which I will buy on the first day its released, BTW). I have spent the past YEAR listening (over and over again) to the unabridged audiobook version of "Castles of Steel" by Robert Massie and must say that it is as interesting a time for naval warfare as the Russo-Japanese War was 11 years eariler. Please sir, I BEG you to consider it...... Of course Keith, bravo. With interesting possible scenarios, some hypothetical battles in 1917. or 1918. Let's say that German fleet was not sunk at Scapa Flow but died gloriously in sea battles. Damn, can't use smiles buhu forum was better before Mario

[Neutrino 123]

Pirates, as a matter of fact, do crack copy-protection schemes, know where to download games (even wargames), and play/sell pirated games without having a single problem. Half Life 2 was available in a "Steamless" pirated version ten days after the game was published - so much for the legit customers that *had* to depend on Steam.


Of course, but when some pirates crack a protection scheme, not all pirates can instantly take advantage of this, as pirates are not one group, but many (though most likely with several connections between them). One would expect some sales from people who would otherwise pirate to be gained from copy protection, and it would be a signifigant benefit to the designers if overall sales are increased by even a few percent. Of course, quantitative discussion in this matter is completely useless, since we don't have any kind of statistics in any relevant matters on this topic (though it would certainly be interesting).

If I may make a suggestion / beg you....please consider WWI for the follow-up to Distant Guns (which I will buy on the first day its released, BTW). I have spent the past YEAR listening (over and over again) to the unabridged audiobook version of "Castles of Steel" by Robert Massie and must say that it is as interesting a time for naval warfare as the Russo-Japanese War was 11 years eariler. Please sir, I BEG you to consider it......


I second this. The first release could cover only the Grand Fleet vs. High Seas Fleet North Sea campaign, and submarines probably would only need to be modeled abstractly in the campaign. Then expansions could be released for other surface actions in WWI.

The Spanish American War uses ships very similar to the RJW, but seems extremely unbalanced to me. All the historical scenarios would be unbalanced in favor of the United States (I think the Spanish had at least one wooden ship in their Phillipine force, and the battle near Cuba was like Tsushima, but with the Spanish not even having a technically superior fleet like the Russians did, and also bottled up in a port), and only in the campaign could a skilled Spanish player have any kind of signifigant effect. On the other hand, the work required for the Span-Am war would probably be small, and I would buy it if it came out as an expansion for Distant Guns.

[Reckall]

Of course, but when some pirates crack a protection scheme, not all pirates can instantly take advantage of this, as pirates are not one group, but many

This is (don't take offence) a very simplicistic and naive view of the pirate scene.

Pirates often crack games just for the desire to show off. A game with an unusual and "unbeatable" protection scheme is targeted by the various groups like an olympic event - and glory to the one who cracks it first, derision if you put out a crack that doesn't works just to beat the competition; it is almost a professional sport.

After the game is cracked, it is distributed. I won't mention the channels, but as of 2006 they are exactly the ones that everybody is talking about. The cracks themselves - along with more detailed instructions if needed - are meanwhile made freely available over the net. Funny thing is that the cracks are formally published for legit customers under the "right to have a no CD/no activation procedure" umbrella. Of course, if you use them to play a pirated game, "blame on you".

Average time for a game from publication to availability via pirate channels: one day. Sometimes even less if the pirates manage to get a copy of the gold master before the game hits the shelves.

Bottom line: if you really want a pirated game you will know how to get it or where to go to get it - free of hassles and protections. And that's really it.

[Neutrino 123]

This is (don't take offence) a very simplicistic and naive view of the pirate scene.

Pirates often crack games just for the desire to show off. A game with an unusual and "unbeatable" protection scheme is targeted by the various groups like an olympic event - and glory to the one who cracks it first, derision if you put out a crack that doesn't works just to beat the competition; it is almost a professional sport.

After the game is cracked, it is distributed. I won't mention the channels, but as of 2006 they are exactly the ones that everybody is talking about. The cracks themselves - along with more detailed instructions if needed - are meanwhile made freely available over the net. Funny thing is that the cracks are formally published for legit customers under the "right to have a no CD/no activation procedure" umbrella. Of course, if you use them to play a pirated game, "blame on you".

Average time for a game from publication to availability via pirate channels: one day. Sometimes even less if the pirates manage to get a copy of the gold master before the game hits the shelves.

Bottom line: if you really want a pirated game you will know how to get it or where to go to get it - free of hassles and protections. And that's really it.

Gee, thanks for ignoring my parenthesis RIGHT AFTER the quote!:cheeky:

If what you say is true, then anti-pirateing measures are completely useless. If they were useless, then probably companies wouldn't expend any money on them. I'm guessing that all possible pirates are not quite as linked as you say they are.

On the other hand, it is possible that the benifit from copy-protection is negligible, in which case it would be a waste for companies to practice it. However, since companies are the ones with sales statistics, they are probably better able to judge then us (and I am not sarcastic when I say probably - though I consider it unlikely, I would still not be surprised by many companies making a marketing mistake;) ).

[Redwolf]

Pirates often crack games just for the desire to show off. A game with an unusual and "unbeatable" protection scheme is targeted by the various groups like an olympic event - and glory to the one who cracks it first, derision if you put out a crack that doesn't works just to beat the competition; it is almost a professional sport.


Right on.

Just like with virus "kits" - the people who develop the cracks are not those who use them. There is s small group of talented peopel who have no time or desire to play games or do anything with computers they "rooted". But these people are very determined and very good and crack software for sports, and the better the challenge the more effort is put in.

On the other side of the equation are the protectors in the CD copy protection industry - who are completely outgunned. Not only do many firms lack any capability to do hard cryptography, all of them operate within very narrow hardware parameters. They cannot delay getting their software cracked for more than a few days even within their acceptable rate of pissed off paying customers.

The notion that somehow people who want a cracked game don't find the cracks in wishful thinking.

[Reckall]

Gee, thanks for ignoring my parenthesis RIGHT AFTER the quote!:cheeky:

The parenthesis said:

"as pirates are not one group, but many (though most likely with several connections between them)."

The connection between groups has no weight in "availability of pirated software" matters: once a game is cracked, the instructions and files to do it by yourself are distributed openly over the internet. Everyone, EVERYONE can download a game and the relative crack if he really wishes - the only restriction being your kind of connection. Over a 56k it will take a while, but at the end you have your pirated game.


If what you say is true, then anti-pirateing measures are completely useless. If they were useless, then probably companies wouldn't expend any money on them. I'm guessing that all possible pirates are not quite as linked as you say they are.

It is against forum rules to provide links, so I'll not do it; but do a very simple search or ask around, and you will find sites openly hosting cracks for everything - cracks done by all the main pirate's groups.


On the other hand, it is possible that the benifit from copy-protection is negligible, in which case it would be a waste for companies to practice it. However, since companies are the ones with sales statistics, they are probably better able to judge then us (and I am not sarcastic when I say probably - though I consider it unlikely, I would still not be surprised by many companies making a marketing mistake;) ).

It would not be the first one. One thing is sure: many copy-protection schemes are much more a pain for legit customers than for pirates. Remember: if you are a pirate you can have a Steamless, fully working version of Half-Life 2 - up stat.

[Neutrino 123]

The parenthesis said:

"as pirates are not one group, but many (though most likely with several connections between them)."

The connection between groups has no weight in "availability of pirated software" matters: once a game is cracked, the instructions and files to do it by yourself are distributed openly over the internet. Everyone, EVERYONE can download a game and the relative crack if he really wishes - the only restriction being your kind of connection. Over a 56k it will take a while, but at the end you have your pirated game.

It only takes one pirate to make the software avalible to everyone, but an individual will have a much more difficult time finding a crack that is only on one website then one on many websites.


It is against forum rules to provide links, so I'll not do it; but do a very simple search or ask around, and you will find sites openly hosting cracks for everything - cracks done by all the main pirate's groups.

I did this for a decent spectrum of games. Half Life 2, of course, was the easiest to find cracks for. Looking at the first few google pages for Silent Hunter III yielded very few, less obvious results (one of which led to the FBI homepage!:D ). Finally, Dangerous Waters and TOAW had no results in the first few pages of this google search.

This seems to indicate that for popular games, even an excellent copy-protection scheme that prevents, say, half of pirate 'rings' from quickly aquireing a crack, will make no difference, as cracks will still be easy to find (and the pirate rings that didn't initially get it will get it from others). Meanwhile, for an unpopular (relatively, in terms of number of people interested) game will already be more difficult to find a crack for, especially for an amature crack-finder, or one who has never before even looked for a crack. In this case, copy-protection can make something already more difficult to find even harder. True, cracks could be found for the determined, but not everyone looking for a crack will be willing to put in maybe more then a couple minutes.


It would not be the first one. One thing is sure: many copy-protection schemes are much more a pain for legit customers than for pirates. Remember: if you are a pirate you can have a Steamless, fully working version of Half-Life 2 - up stat.

Well, not knowing exactly what Steam is, I can't comment on this, but I've played Matrix games, Starforce-protected games, and others, and have ever been inconvienanced for more then a couple minutes during the installation. Only a tiny fraction of players will be signifigantly adversely affected by copy-protection schemes (besides maybe Starforce, which seems to screw up CD-copying for everybody).

[Reckall]

It only takes one pirate to make the software avalible to everyone, but an individual will have a much more difficult time finding a crack that is only on one website then one on many websites.


Post a message on a gaming newsgroup asking where to find a NoCD patch for a game you legally own. It's that easy.


Finally, Dangerous Waters and TOAW had no results in the first few pages of this google search.


The Battlefront edition of Dangerous Waters had no protection, so obviously you will find no cracks. You can find the NO-CD crack for TOAW on this very forum http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352


Meanwhile, for an unpopular (relatively, in terms of number of people interested) game will already be more difficult to find a crack for, especially for an amature crack-finder, or one who has never before even looked for a crack.

NO-CD cracks for all HPS games (to just give an example) are freely available over the net, and quite easy to find.

[NormKoger]

There does not seem to be much point in stepping into the philosophical argument over whether designers deserve to actually see some return for their work. Suffice it to say that if copy protection were not both necessary and at least somewhat effective, folks like me wouldn't bother with it.

We do have plans for this engine, but the details are still up in the air. Most likely we will be visiting WWII the next time around. After that, WWI is an obvious and attractive topic. The WWII treatment will probably be by campaign and theater, at least initially, rather than the entire conflict. WWI looks a lot more like the RJW, with a full length campaign including treatment of surface raiders, submarines, etc.

I believe that the Spanish American war is doable. Granted, the battles were lopsided. But with a campaign game the options become more interesting. In some ways, the situation was a bit like the RJW. The Spanish weren't likely to win a stand up fight, but with a bit of creative thought they might still have managed considerable naughtiness. There was pressure on both sides to widen the war to include bombardments of coastal cities, which would introduce a political requirement to protect those cities. Then there are the wildcards. Sphincters tightened up aboard the US task force at Manila whenever the Germans or Japanese paid a visit. Yep. There is potential here.

[Bloodstar]

Norm, don't pay attention to Usenet that much. I am the one that have defended you there with good arguments... You have right to make whatever copy protection as you please. This is only annoyance but it's not a big deal. Yes, some people are irritated but if game is good you will not have to worry. Copy protection is pure nececity. Your game will be available worldwide and it is good to have good copy protection. I have said many thing and it will be stupid that I repeat all ove again here, but you have my support and I guess support of all people with good will. You Sir have really big credit in my eyes and I have big respect toward you, you have deserved that we all send you 1000 US$ with big THANK YOU note just because of TOAW. As I still don't have 1000 US$ to throw around, I can just say BIG THANK YOU!! So any nitpicking about copy protection is really a shame in this case and pure stupidity, ie. how to say, malicious... That is just ungrateful toward you, because if anyone is Mozart in wargame designers, that is you. Best, Mario

[KeithV]

Sorry if that sounded bad, Norm, but WWII has been SO overdone. I've been a PC simmer for over 15 years and I can count on one hand the number of games that covered WWI naval surface combat, while WWII (which, to be honest, was mostly subs and aircraft combat but for a few odd engagements) has been given so much treatment (good, bad or ugh) that its gotten a little dull for me.

Ah well....I guess I will need to wait on my dream of flying into battle as von Spee or Sturdee at the Falklands or as Hipper or Beatty at Dogger Bank. *sigh*

You realize, of course, that in all likelyhood I'll still buy the follow-on game...damn your eyes! :-D

[Bloodstar]

I also want to try all Friedrich der Grosse' etc... I have good book by Conway on this subject. Mario

[ETF]

With regard to WWII I think it would be grand. However.........Navies at War by NWS will also be coming out about the same time I would imagine. They too are doing a operational aspect to the time period. Not sure if you should go head to head? Maybe WWI would be more ideal then we would have two great tactical naval games to choose from :whist:

[chetnikk]

There does not seem to be much point in stepping into the philosophical argument over whether designers deserve to actually see some return for their work. Suffice it to say that if copy protection were not both necessary and at least somewhat effective, folks like me wouldn't bother with it.


I wasn't aware there was any debate about whether designers deserved to be paid for their labors - only whether a user-hostile copy protection scheme is likely to be more effective at turning customers into naysayers than it is in converting pirates into customers.

John R.

[chetnikk]

You Sir have really big credit in my eyes and I have big respect toward you, you have deserved that we all send you 1000 US$ with big THANK YOU note just because of TOAW. As I still don't have 1000 US$ to throw around, I can just say BIG THANK YOU!! So any nitpicking about copy protection is really a shame in this case and pure stupidity, ie. how to say, malicious... That is just ungrateful toward you, because if anyone is Mozart in wargame designers, that is you.

Careful, you're getting spittle in his butt-crack.

John R.

[Bloodstar]

Careful, you're getting spittle in his butt-crack.

John R. Chetnikk is btw very "nice" nick.... You on the contrary have no respect toward Mr. Koger... Also on the Usenet we see bunch of envious wanna be designers that are now against copy protection but they still didn't released a one game. Some others have some not so succesful games that with or withoud copy protection will sell few thousand so their argument is irrellevant. And BTW, as I've noticed in wargamers newsgroup there you all lost argument against me, it's just Usenet wolfpack methods that keeps this affair alive... I won the argument on Usenet and you can search Google groups if you don't believe it... So basically I will not repeat again myself. But if this group on usenet want's to continue with their childish and nonsense behaviour let them be. I found this really moronic and really great stupidity. But, pointless discussion is not my liking - if one side don't want to accept logical arguments then discussion is over. So, on Usenet Eddy, Gifty and others will talk among themself from now on. Mario

[Rhetor]

Yes, Mr. Koger, give us the opportunity to sink Jellicoe's dreadnoughts!

Or another ww1 dream: How would I like to lead the Emperor and King's dreadnoughts - "Szent Istvan", "Viribus Unitis", "Prinz Eugen" and "Tegetthoff" agains the Italians of the French....

[Ivan Bajlo]

You have right to make whatever copy protection as you please. This is only annoyance but it's not a big deal.

Actually it is to me, because every time new game for which I make fan page is released I get crack begging e-mails... even when copy protection gets removed like in Hearts of Iron 1.03! :p

600+ posts! You got lot of free time.. :rolleyes:

[Ivan Bajlo]

Yes, Mr. Koger, give us the opportunity to sink Jellicoe's dreadnoughts!

Or another ww1 dream: How would I like to lead the Emperor and King's dreadnoughts - "Szent Istvan", "Viribus Unitis", "Prinz Eugen" and "Tegetthoff" agains the Italians of the French....

I second the idea, fan page on Russia-Japan war isn't really my territory even if Montenegro in support of Imperial Russia also declared a war on Japan which lasted until 80's IIRC. :laugh:

[chetnikk]

You on the contrary have no respect toward Mr. Koger...

I came by it honest. Koger has always been one of my favorites, and his body of work is impeccable.

But that was then. This is now. Like it or not, copy protection is a hot-button issue for people, especially wargamers who tend to keep games for years. Indeed, one of the reasons Koger is so well-respected is that his games have such excellent replayability values. Using one of Koger's own products as an example, if Talonsoft had employed a user-hostile form of copy protection, I would have been unable to install/play "The Operational Art of War" after that publisher's demise.

In other words, if TOAW had featured activation, and had died along with Talonsoft, would anybody remember Koger today?

John R.

[Bloodstar]

Actually it is to me, because every time new game for which I make fan page is released I get crack begging e-mails... even when copy protection gets removed like in Hearts of Iron 1.03! :p

600+ posts! You got lot of free time.. :rolleyes: First welcome to the Warfare HQ, never liked SZO name hehe I have problems with smileys etc I will have to report this... Hmm on copy protection more in my next post... BTW, I am long time here so 600+ posts are not that much really. Mario

[Bloodstar]

I came by it honest. Koger has always been one of my favorites, and his body of work is impeccable.

But that was then. This is now. Like it or not, copy protection is a hot-button issue for people, especially wargamers who tend to keep games for years. Indeed, one of the reasons Koger is so well-respected is that his games have such excellent replayability values. Using one of Koger's own products as an example, if Talonsoft had employed a user-hostile form of copy protection, I would have been unable to install/play "The Operational Art of War" after that publisher's demise.

In other words, if TOAW had featured activation, and had died along with Talonsoft, would anybody remember Koger today?

John R. John, I respect your opinion and I am not NK lawyer here. I will repeat some of my views from Usenet. Time has changed since 1998-2000. and TOAW era. Every kid around the world have ADSL (well mostly, some are on dial up but have pirating buddy around corner in some cases). What we must realize, although gaming and wargaming companies will rarely give you data on pirating loss, sales of their games, their credit lines, investors, marketing costs, you name it, costs of developing games etc... Why would Norm Koger put a four years of HIS LIFE and Jim Rose, invest enormous times to research technology and everything for game, money etc... and then watch as it fall apart? So it's not black and white thing. Copy protection is nececary. And it's not the end of the world. Period. Also I want developers like NK in business and not out of business. They must pay the bills as well. So copy protection thing is just something that really customers must bear with developers... Developers must introduce copy protection in order to run their business. We just disagree in thing that is game breaking thing for some of you and not for me and some other people. There is also a argument that if Half Life 2 needed copy protection, DG need it as well. I don't accept the "fact" that wargamer are less pirated - again show me the FACTS BASED ON TRUE DATA! Do you have them? It is easier for Matrix to have lighter copy protection when they have 50 games in their catalogue, wait that SES have that many games in their catalogue and grow in fact.... I don't see this as a trend - in fact maybe in future SES will have lighter copy protection sheme but please don't kill it on their flagship, first product! That is just my reasoning. Mario

[Don Maddox]

Hey guys, if you have criticisms or concerns about any game--including Distant Guns--you are, of course, free to post them. All we ask is that you remain civil when dealing with other members, mods, or visiting developers.

If, in the end, Storm Eagle Studios elects to add/delete game features or do business in a way that you don't like, then provide your feedback and accept that the company must do what it feels is best for business. There is no justification for insulting or attacking the developers because they choose to do business differently than you would.

[cameronian]

There is no justification for insulting or attacking the developers because they choose to do business differently than you would. In some circles it seems to be "hip" to attack Microsoft because of their near-monopoly on operating systems and such. But Storm Eagle Studios is hardly Microsoft and I don't see them forcing a product on anyone.

Nobody has insulted the developers Don, you seem to be suffering from an acute attack of 'ring twitch'. If they (the developers) can't take a bit of rough then they shouldn't be here; personally if the situation was revesred I'd be more upset (embarassed) by the grovelling and secophancy of some of the earlier posts.

Question Norm, if you had incorporated this form of protection in AOR who would be 'enabling' me to play given SSI's demise?

(hint - the answer is an anagram of odybno)

[Don Maddox]

Nobody has insulted the developers Don, you seem to be suffering from an acute attack of 'ring twitch'. If they (the developers) can't take a bit of rough then they shouldn't be here; personally if the situation was revesred I'd be more upset (embarassed) by the grovelling and secophancy of some of the earlier posts.

First, my comments were not aimed at anyone in particular, so why would a request to keep the discussion civil upset you?

And, yes, a bunch of insults have already been thrown around.

[Lempereur1]

Cammy:

First let me thank you for your keen interest in our upcoming release "Distant Guns". Devotion such as yours is rare in the gaming community. Norm and I are honored that you are comparing us to other illustrious game developers.

On the battlefield, facts are sometimes obscured by the smoke of the diversionary attack. Many battles have been won by the general that could see through the diversions and ascertain the real weakness of his enemy.

The other side of the coin reveals a tendency of weaker opponents to select less than ideal tactics. These choices usually portray either a self perceived weakness or a substandard army with which he must employ in the upcoming conflict.

Since Storm Eagle Studios announced Distant Guns, we have not had one single email sent to us complaining about anything, much less our copy protection methods, except for one thing. Fans have complained that we have not shipped the game yet. Period.

Norm Koger has supported the games he has developed longer than anyone I know. He still answers email from fans of all his games going all the way back to his first game.

It is clear to everyone here that there are certain people who are scared to death that the "Guard" has been committed. Those 7 Ft tall, bearskin hat wearing, honor bound soldiers truely are breathtaking, dont you think? There is no need to go into this subject any further.

Enjoy the smiley faces, I really like them!:smoke:




Oh, Cammy, one more thing.

Did I forget to mention that the 1st Corp is about to smash your Right flank and the Guard Horse artillery just unlimbered right in front of you?

[eddysterckx]

Since Storm Eagle Studios announced Distant Guns, we have not had one single email sent to us complaining about anything, much less our copy protection methods, except for one thing. Fans have complained that we have not shipped the game yet. Period.


Well, putting your fingers in your ears and singing "LA LA LA LA" isn't going to make this issue go away.

"We haven't received a mail, thus there are no problems" - :whist: Great, just great.

The really ironic thing is that you've got a nice big "news letter" link on your website inviting people to give their email so you can send them news about the game .

I must have subscribed in the week the website launched. Total number of emails received : nada, zip, zero. By your logic I'm bound to assume that there's no progress in the development of the game.

Oh, and you can check it : it's eddysterckx@hotmail.com

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Bloodstar]

Well, putting your fingers in your ears and singing "LA LA LA LA" isn't going to make this issue go away.

"We haven't received a mail, thus there are no problems" - :whist: Great, just great.

The really ironic thing is that you've got a nice big "news letter" link on your website inviting people to give their email so you can send them news about the game .

I must have subscribed in the week the website launched. Total number of emails received : nada, zip, zero. By your logic I'm bound to assume that there's no progress in the development of the game.

Oh, and you can check it : it's eddysterckx@hotmail.com

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx Here comes vilain from Usenet ahaha

[Ivan Bajlo]

Enjoy the smiley faces, I really like them!:smoke:

Mr. Rose before I comment on anything do you still have lots of lawyers? :rolleyes:

P.S.
At lest there aren't any darn Jeeps in this game. :D

[NormKoger]

Question Norm, if you had incorporated this form of protection in AOR who would be 'enabling' me to play given SSI's demise?


Answer: You would. See my 17 Feb 06, 18:16 post in the "What about Activation?" thread.

[Lempereur1]

Ivan:

I actually have four (4) sets of lawyers, depending on what I need them for!

Mr. Eddy's Father's Neigborhood, is the same diversionary attacks that were thrown our way at Talonsoft.

Funny how someone is attacking us with such intensity about something they have not even seen yet!

At the end of the day, all the kings slander and all the kings mud cant substitute or compete with a supieror product....:smoke:

Rest assured, there are those who are scared sh_tless that Norm and I are back!


PS: Heh Eddy, the Guards Horse artillery just breached your cheatu wall!:D

(Wait till you see it happen in the Disant Guns Engine)

[Ivan Bajlo]

I actually have four (4) sets of lawyers, depending on what I need them for!

Merde! :laugh:

Rest assured, there are those who are scared sh_tless that Norm and I are back!

Just keep one eye on Grouchy constantly. :p

PS: Heh Eddy, the Guards Horse artillery just breached your cheatu wall!:D

Can we at lest have some screenshots of this action? Don't keep us on the edge!

(Wait till you see it happen in the Disant Guns Engine)

I'm more interested in possible sequels but for that to happen game better be awesome - or I'll beat up Bloodstar! :laugh:

[NormKoger]

...you've got a nice big "news letter" link on your website inviting people to give their email so you can send them news about the game .

I must have subscribed in the week the website launched. Total number of emails received : nada, zip, zero.

Oh, and you can check it : it's eddysterckx@hotmail.com

Eddy,

I have no idea what might have happened, but the email address you listed is not in our database. I just checked. There are currently several hundred addresses on each of several lists, and several emails have gone out to list members.

I would be very interested to hear of any other folks who believe that they have signed up for info, but have not received emails. It is always possible that there is a problem with the server functions that manage the lists. Should that be the case, we may have a bone to pick with a third party software outfit.

Have other folks who've signed up been getting the emails?

[Neutrino 123]

I got two E-mails awile ago (December I think), but haven't gotten anything recent regarding the updated release date, new graphics, etc.

[eddysterckx]

Ivan:

I actually have four (4) sets of lawyers, depending on what I need them for!

Mr. Eddy's Father's Neigborhood, is the same diversionary attacks that were thrown our way at Talonsoft.

Funny how someone is attacking us with such intensity about something they have not even seen yet!

At the end of the day, all the kings slander and all the kings mud cant substitute or compete with a supieror product....:smoke:

Rest assured, there are those who are scared sh_tless that Norm and I are back!


PS: Heh Eddy, the Guards Horse artillery just breached your cheatu wall!:D

(Wait till you see it happen in the Disant Guns Engine)


Oh boy - words fail me to convey how sad all of this makes me feel.

That dust cloud on the horizon is not Grouchy, it's Blücher :horse: - and you know it.

Good luck with the game - you'll need it.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Matto]

Eddy,

I have no idea what might have happened, but the email address you listed is not in our database. I just checked. There are currently several hundred addresses on each of several lists, and several emails have gone out to list members.

I would be very interested to hear of any other folks who believe that they have signed up for info, but have not received emails. It is always possible that there is a problem with the server functions that manage the lists. Should that be the case, we may have a bone to pick with a third party software outfit.

Have other folks who've signed up been getting the emails?

I signed sometime in December and received I think two emails (new preview and new waves) ...

[Bloodstar]

Merde! :laugh:



Just keep one eye on Grouchy constantly. :p



Can we at lest have some screenshots of this action? Don't keep us on the edge!



I'm more interested in possible sequels but for that to happen game better be awesome - or I'll beat up Bloodstar! :laugh: You will beat your prick Bajlo... and now get lost, you have started to be again irritatting so I will start to ignore you. Mario

[Rhetor]

I have received the only e-mail (as I registered in late January) on February 3rd.

Eddy, if your e-mail provider has an anti-spam utlility, check it. Mine has thrown the Storm Eagle Studios mail into "possible spam" directory, and I had to manually mark it as "no spam"

[eddysterckx]

I have received the only e-mail (as I registered in late January) on February 3rd.

Eddy, if your e-mail provider has an anti-spam utlility, check it. Mine has thrown the Storm Eagle Studios mail into "possible spam" directory, and I had to manually mark it as "no spam"

Mr. Koger checked their database - my email address is not in it - could be a database/software glitch as I probably registered just hours after the website was announced on UseNet in late october 2005.

Pretty sure I did this because I register for news at *every* wargame website kind enough to have that service. Well, easy solution to all of this : I'll re-register now :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Neutrino 123]

I'm guessing that people who registered early were somehow dropped from the list. I'll register again as well.

[Rhetor]

Mr. Koger checked their database - my email address is not in it - could be a database/software glitch as I probably registered just hours after the website was announced on UseNet in late october 2005.
Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Ups - missed that Mr. Koger's post :-D

[Ivan Bajlo]

You will beat your prick Bajlo... and now get lost, you have started to be again irritatting so I will start to ignore you. Mario

I irritate everyone it's not like you got monopoly on that. ;)

P.S.
You shouldn't take things to personally its bad for your blood pressure if you get annoyed by every little thing, I would probably ended up in mental hospital since I'm still waiting for my a****** of a programmer to finish my CMS for which he got paid some $1300 over six months ago. :mad:

[Bloodstar]

I irritate everyone it's not like you got monopoly on that. ;)

P.S.
You shouldn't take things to personally its bad for your blood pressure if you get annoyed by every little thing, I would probably ended up in mental hospital since I'm still waiting for my a****** of a programmer to finish my CMS for which he got paid some $1300 over six months ago. :mad: OK Bajlo, don't worry I will not end up in the menthal institution and it's not that bad... I have really lot's of work and that is strestful I admit, that's why I prefer calm discussion without "heavy words"... Yes, I am getting old but that's life. NHF Mario

[Reckall]

Also on the Usenet we see bunch of envious wanna be designers that are now against copy protection but they still didn't released a one game.

Before surrealism reaches new heights, I feel that it is important to clarify some basic points.

1) I designed, wrote and published products ranging from role-playing supplements to comic books - i.e.. the fields where I choose to express my creativity. I make a living from it and I'm quite happy with my job - thank you.

2) The debate on usenet is not about copy protection at all. It is about the specific copy-protection method proposed for Distant Gun, which is considered by a vast majority- in the form it was originally described - as too intrusive and problematic. No one is expressing problems with the usual serial number methods (like the one used by Matrix) or with the need to keep the CD in the drive to launch the game (like you need to do with HPS games).


And BTW, as I've noticed in wargamers newsgroup there you all lost argument against me, it's just Usenet wolfpack methods that keeps this affair alive... I won the argument on Usenet and you can search Google groups if you don't believe it...

Not at all. There was a formal poll, and the majority of those who voted said that they will not buy DG given the kind of copy protection that is being talked about for the game - even if the game itself was eagerly waited. Take this result as you wish: as an insignificant anomaly or as a scientific poll, but that was the result; and since the game is on the wish list of many wargamers the hope is that at least the concerns expressed are heard.


So basically I will not repeat again myself. But if this group on usenet want's to continue with their childish and nonsense behaviour let them be. I found this really moronic and really great stupidity. But, pointless discussion is not my liking - if one side don't want to accept logical arguments then discussion is over. So, on Usenet Eddy, Gifty and others will talk among themself from now on.

It is called freedom of speech. It is also called "they will buy another game" - about whom they will then talk among themselves, sure.

[Bloodstar]

2) The debate on usenet is not about copy protection at all. It is about the specific copy-protection method proposed for Distant Gun, which is considered by a vast majority- in the form it was originally described - as too intrusive and problematic. No one is expressing problems with the usual serial number methods (like the one used by Matrix) or with the need to keep the CD in the drive to launch the game (like you need to do with HPS games).


First I need to clarify just this obvious thing. Distant Guns! was not even released and all this dust was raised on Usenet. They have raised it to influence Norm Koger & Jim Rose to change the way they using copy protection. First, game is not even published and up until now we didn't even know all details, so poll was in fact fabricated on imagination and worst possible scenario.
As we see this copy protection will not be so user - unfriendly as they predicted.
Also, original rebelious bunch didn't in fact made such a rebellion when Valve have introduced Steam - much more troublesome tool. They wanted to influence SES because they knew that SES is small company. That is taking a revenge to SES for all Valves of the world. Jim Rose told that they will not change the copy protection and they shouldn't in fact. Me thinks and I stay with that, that it is not such a big deal.

Secondly, they thought that now when SES introducing this form of copy protection that this will become the trend. Me thinks that maybe it will not. So there are many facts that are not in fact - facts.

And also I am finding this all "Lynch the SES" as really way out of line. We are talking about one of best wargame designer in the world - maybe even the best. TOAW is masterpiece and work of art - what some guys have made with TOAW is amazing! (Daniel McBride, FiTE guys etc...).

Can we have a little good will toward Norm Koger and Jim Rose (another legendary figure in games industry)? Can we have some grace and respect toward them?

We must consider facts - and facts are that game companies (startup and other) can easily sunk and I don't want to kill SES on their first product, that's just me - even if most troublesome copy protection is there in place on DG.

You may disagree with me, fine, I don't have any problems with that but I can also said my opinion.

So I am sorry my humanity and my righeous nature cannot accept your facts here, I will give my hard earned cash to SES, because they deserve it.

Regards to Jim Rose who I met in Atlanta on one E3 i think.


Mario

[eddysterckx]

First I need to clarify just this obvious thing. Distant Guns! was not even released and all this dust was raised on Usenet. They have raised it to influence Norm Koger & Jim Rose to change the way they using copy protection.


Exactly - because a lot of people there feel it's going to have a negative impact on sales.


First, game is not even published and up until now we didn't even know all details, so poll was in fact fabricated on imagination and worst possible scenario.


The poll was not "fabricated" at all - it was held with the data available at the time. The elusiveness/secrecy surrounding the "activation" scheme surely didn't help.


As we see this copy protection will not be so user - unfriendly as they predicted.


You mean you actually understood it ? Ok, in that case I would like an answer to the following questions :

1) After I've installed and activated the game my harddisk crashes - will I be able to reinstall the game given that the activation server at SES might not be around at that time ? (cfr. Talonsoft)

2) I've installed and activated my game and I want to transfer it to my portable for when I'm on the road. So I unload my "licence key" or whatever to a diskette. When putting it in my portable I get "disk read errors" due to a bad sector. Now what do I do ? Again given that SES might not be around at the moment. The chances of this happening are very real given the fact that the currently proposed scheme doesn't let you install a working game on multiple machines so you have to go through this unload/load cycle a lot of times.

3) I'm currently running on an average of 1 complete OS install/year. After that old games only get installed when I feel like playing them. Like TOAW. Now again, what do I do in that distant future when SES isn't around anymore ?

4) Unload the "licence key" to a disk. Explain carefully how this is preventing piracy of the game as the only thing I'd have to do to get the game running on both of my machines is to make a 1-1 diskcopy and reload on both machines.


Also, original rebelious bunch didn't in fact made such a rebellion when Valve have introduced Steam - much more troublesome tool.


Because none of us wargamers give a damn about what copy protection methods are employed by developers of the "RTS/FPS/RPG of the month".


They wanted to influence SES because they knew that SES is small company.


Reading 9.8 on the paranoia scale here


That is taking a revenge to SES for all Valves of the world.


Yup, we had a meeting and decided to do just that.


Jim Rose told that they will not change the copy protection and they shouldn't in fact. Me thinks and I stay with that, that it is not such a big deal.


That's fine - you know me, I don't mind to disagree about something


Secondly, they thought that now when SES introducing this form of copy protection that this will become the trend. Me thinks that maybe it will not. So there are many facts that are not in fact - facts.


Remember my post about wargame publishers and trends regarding copy protection ?


Can we have a little good will toward Norm Koger and Jim Rose (another legendary figure in games industry)? Can we have some grace and respect toward them?


Sure - and my $50 too - once they drop this nonsense.


We must consider facts - and facts are that game companies (startup and other) can easily sunk and I don't want to kill SES on their first product, that's just me - even if most troublesome copy protection is there in place on DG.


You know what is a guaranteed way to sink your company ? Alienating potential customers and thinking you can get a dime out of pirates. All this elusiveness surrounding such simple questions as the ones I've posed above is not helping either.


You may disagree with me, fine, I don't have any problems with that but I can also said my opinion.


And I said mine :)

Greetz,

Eddy "The villain from UseNet" Sterckx :)

[Bloodstar]

Exactly - because a lot of people there feel it's going to have a negative impact on sales.


No, but that will be explained later in my "Bloodstar's Interactive Marketing Tool For Dummiies vol 3" :devil:

The poll was not "fabricated" at all - it was held with the data available at the time. The elusiveness/secrecy surrounding the "activation" scheme surely didn't help.


Is this another version of the song "Let's sabotage SES together"? :p


You mean you actually understood it ? Ok, in that case I would like an answer to the following questions :


First, I am not spokeperson for SES so our president Jim Rose will answer this :laugh:

2) I've installed and activated my game and I want to transfer it to my portable for when I'm on the road.

You play games on the road, in trains, or while hiking? :laugh: I ussually watch pretty ladies with my Valentino seducing gaze no. 5 :laugh:
Well I am still not married so I can do that. BTW, I hope that your wife doesn't mind blowing ships at Tsushima straits and neglecting her? :p


Because none of us wargamers give a damn about what copy protection methods are employed by developers of the "RTS/FPS/RPG of the month".

But, let's sabotage startup wargaming company in times when each & every sold copy of the game means life and death? :confused:



Reading 9.8 on the paranoia scale here

Yeah, and my brother the lier have told me that he just met CEO of Intuit in San Francisco during EBAY EXPO 2006 and he told him that he is laughing out loud that Eddy Villain (that's a Stalin's joke which I will explain later but I am glad that you have accept it as a joke, as you know that I have nothing against you personally) and the gang have attacked SES while Intuit can do whatever he wants? :)




That's fine - you know me, I don't mind to disagree about something


That's OK, and I respect every opinion. But we will teach our prodigal son Eddy that he is wrong :devious:


Remember my post about wargame publishers and trends regarding copy protection ?

SES doesn't need to use Matrix methods of copy protection. They have their business model and I don't see any disrespectful behaviour toward me as a customer in their needs to protect result of their labour. It's like composer that wrote great musical piece, he will not call other composers to take his work and go to San Remo or MTV Music Awards to take their credit. It's like engineer making a machine that is easy to be copied away and manufactured by others.
Pirates do take a heavy toll on publishers and their duty is to protect their work. It's a matter of life and death to them.




You know what is a guaranteed way to sink your company ? Alienating potential customers and thinking you can get a dime out of pirates. All this elusiveness surrounding such simple questions as the ones I've posed above is not helping either.



OK, SHOWTIME FOLKS! It's time for Bloodstar's Marketing Lesson for Dummies this night!

Ok, let's start with a backward, tiny feudal kingdom of Croatia, ruled by corrupted enemies of the state and traitors :p

If game will be not copy protected, game will be bought by few people there. Oleg Mastruko, Mario Morela, and President of Tankerska Plovidba maybe and few others people...

Now, if game comes with good copy protection, voild, sales go up maybe to 50 persons (let's imagine that number). So you take 30 more countries like that: Uganda, Mali, Ivory Coast, Guadalupe, Mongolia, Tunis etc hehe: and watch now: 30 x 50 x 50 US$ = 75000 US$

Not bad in comparision with 5000 US$ that will be earned if there is no copy protection sheme! :smoke:

Now we come to part two of tonight's lesson:

USA - Friedrich der GROSSE MARKET ! You have here a potentially big market, all great bands from UK and Europe when they made success in USA they in fact could said that they made it! So if your copy protection sheme atracts many people who would get pirated game if game was not protected you have made good money. Now, there is a reports that casual piracy is rising in the west as well. Reason for good copy protection.

Thank you for watching this show by Bloodstar!

*VILLAIN EXPLANATION - In July of 1941. Stalin have ordered Yeremenko - "AND GET ME THAT VILLAIN GUDERIAN!"

See, Eddy you are in same company like Guderian, that's a privilege! :laugh:


Mario

[eddysterckx]

No, but that will be explained later in my "Bloodstar's Interactive Marketing Tool For Dummiies vol 3" :devil:


I hope you make sure that book is printed with red letters on a green background - you know, to avoid pirates being able to copy it.

Such a shame that this anti-piracy measure is also responsible for a lot less sales than would have been the case if it was just black on white print.

And too bad the pirates just OCR it anyway, so you're not getting any money from them either.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Bloodstar]

I hope you make sure that book is printed with red letters on a green background - you know, to avoid pirates being able to copy it.

Such a shame that this anti-piracy measure is also responsible for a lot less sales than would have been the case if it was just black on white print.

And too bad the pirates just OCR it anyway, so you're not getting any money from them either.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Eddy that is called RETREAT BEFORE COMBAT in TOAW what you have just done (in example you lost argument against me ahhh)...

I was hoping for a real fight of brains...


Mario

[eddysterckx]

Eddy that is called RETREAT BEFORE COMBAT in TOAW what you have just done (in example you lost argument against me ahhh)...

I was hoping for a real fight of brains...


Mario

That whooshing sound you hear is the analogy that went right over your head ...

Never mind Mario, a self-declared born winner as you is just thinking too quickly for me anyway as I'm sure everyone who has bothered to read this far in the thread will have noticed :whist:

I'm glad we agree on most non-DG related issues as the constant humiliation by your cunning and creative employment of the most basic syllogisms would be too much for me to bare.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Bloodstar]

That whooshing sound you hear is the analogy that went right over your head ...

Never mind Mario, a self-declared born winner as you is just thinking too quickly for me anyway as I'm sure everyone who has bothered to read this far in the thread will have noticed :whist:

I'm glad we agree on most non-DG related issues as the constant humiliation by your cunning and creative employment of the most basic syllogisms would be too much for me to bare.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


LOL Great, nice discussion Eddy!

BTW, no need for sophism! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist

:devious:


Mario

[Reckall]

I feel the need to bring some real-world here, too.

First I need to clarify just this obvious thing. Distant Guns! was not even released and all this dust was raised on Usenet.

Rightly so, since the concerns are about a feature of the program. Raising dust after the game is published would be like closing the barn's door after the horses have escaped.


so poll was in fact fabricated on imagination and worst possible scenario.


No, the poll was not fabricated. Yes, the poll was about the possibility of a worst possibile scenario happening. The fundament of the poll was IF ---> THEN.


As we see this copy protection will not be so user - unfriendly as they predicted.


You blame usenet for raising dust on a still unrealased game, here but you are basing your judgement on a still unrealased copy-protections scheme. I'll leave the comments to the readers.


Also, original rebelious bunch didn't in fact made such a rebellion when Valve have introduced Steam - much more troublesome tool.

Not at all. Again, I wrote a piece about the problems caused by Steam on my very magazine. But Steam, until Dangerous Waters was added to its list, was a scheme for FPSs like Half Life 2 or Counterstrike Source - so it wasn't a priority on a wargaming newsgroup.

Anyway, as anyone who has bothered to read the debate on usenet knows, Steam was talked about, as it was the recent unfamous rootkit by Sony and other schemes.


They wanted to influence SES because they knew that SES is small company.


...Which would mean, in my book, that a lost sale is worse for SES than for Valve...


And also I am finding this all "Lynch the SES" as really way out of line. We are talking about one of best wargame designer in the world - maybe even the best. TOAW is masterpiece and work of art - what some guys have made with TOAW is amazing! (Daniel McBride, FiTE guys etc...).

Can we have a little good will toward Norm Koger and Jim Rose (another legendary figure in games industry)? Can we have some grace and respect toward them?


Can we say that all of the above makes still more amazing the kind of stunt that is being proposed here?


We must consider facts - and facts are that game companies (startup and other) can easily sunk and I don't want to kill SES on their first product.


Me too - this is the very reason why a lot of people on usenet and the forums tried to raise awareness on the fact that some choices weren't popular at all.

[Bloodstar]

I feel the need to bring some real-world here, too.

I think that you are on Andromeda 17 and started ti talk real nonsense but I don't have time right now to write because I gotta make some work out of office.
But. let's just say that i found your logical premises quite amusing and very incorrect. And let's say that I don't like your style so after I reply to you later in the day it will be EOD for you. Because if you cannot grasp my arguments I will not try to keep ad infinitum discussion like on Usenet just for the sake of talking. And you are not the only one who "wrote for the magazine" so I am not impresed at all. Tell me how many times you have been to E3 and what key figures in gaming industry you know. I have met Sid Meier and he told me that you don't know a ****... :laugh:
I really met Sid Meier in 1999.


Mario

[eddysterckx]

I think that you are on Andromeda 17 and started ti talk real nonsense


He Mario, try to guess who "Reckall" is.

Here's a tip : Mr. Gun


. Tell me how many times you have been to E3 and what key figures in gaming industry you know. I have met Sid Meier and he told me that you don't know a ****... :laugh:
I really met Sid Meier in 1999.


Come to Spiel 2006 in Essen and talk to me - then you'll have something to brag about :)

One of the great things about wargaming is that it's a relatively small world where fans still have a chance to talk to the key persons in the industry - I know the feeling and I like it too :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Bloodstar]

I feel the need to bring some real-world here, too.

OK, my meeting was canceled so I can reply. First Eddy gave me tip but I don't know what is your nick on Usenet so you can tell me. Secondly this can easily get past decent conversation and I hope that you are not for it. If you want to talk to me, use a little respect because I don't like people who want's to talk to me like from Olymp. Third, don't try to be pompeus and bring some "real world" here as I have gave great arguments here and on Usenet so I am not talking something that doens't have any logic. You may disagree with me, OK but if you want to fight my arguments, you must bring your strongest on the tables, don't ignore my arguments and don't jump over them.





Rightly so, since the concerns are about a feature of the program. Raising dust after the game is published would be like closing the barn's door after the horses have escaped.

Uh, oh, you all couldn't moved your lazy asses like fans of Heroes and made a petition about your concerns and then send it officially to the Norm and Jim... You made it on Usenet for God sake! Norm was there on Usenet but he is a BUSY man so you cannot expect that he reads all posts there.

And you tell me everything you want but resorting to NOT BUY the game and bullying other people to not buy as well is one of the sleaziest way that I've seen on Usenet. But, although SES can be hurt your agenda will fail. Also, copy protection will bring customers more about this later. But, we will NEVER AND I REPEAT NEVER AGREED that that is the way of treating Norm Koger! No, sorry but that is worst possible scenario that people who call them "fans" of wargames could took. And you can talk for days you will not convince me that that is the way. It will be EOD rather then if you will insist on that.



No, the poll was not fabricated. Yes, the poll was about the possibility of a worst possibile scenario happening. The fundament of the poll was IF ---> THEN.

Banging a talkie-walkie on the wal BANG BANG BANG, I have lousy connection with you Mr. Neil Armstrong, beeep beeep, aha connection is re-established so "Hey here is Earth talking how is it on the Moon"? :p
Now seriously, Usenet discussion went like this, Eddy brought a notion that he will not buy the game and then Gifty said that he will not buy the game as well that have activation blablabla and they also said that it will not be possible to install it on the another PC (NOW WE SEE THAT IT IS NOT TRUE!!!) and that it will not be possible to play if SES goes under (THIS IS ALSO NOT CORRECT!!!)

And they and few other blokes bullied then some people to sign petition not to buy the game. So, yes maybe poll was not fabricated but it was based on FALSE information that American paranoia generously generated (INTUIT etc :devil:)



You blame usenet for raising dust on a still unrealased game, here but you are basing your judgement on a still unrealased copy-protections scheme. I'll leave the comments to the readers.


Hello again Earth is calling, I have been game journalist for many years and now run a website for selling game beside other things that I do. I know game industry.
You may disagree that copy protection will work and I don't care - I tell you that it works and here is really discussion over on that point. There are some things that I cannot tolerate and that is that I must 100 times said some things that I think - they cannot be changed. Yes, I can change my opinion on some fact based thing but when I first hand see some things that is it. So leave this matter because we disagree here.


Not at all. Again, I wrote a piece about the problems caused by Steam on my very magazine. But Steam, until Dangerous Waters was added to its list, was a scheme for FPSs like Half Life 2 or Counterstrike Source - so it wasn't a priority on a wargaming newsgroup.

Again, customers of HL 2 that were not satisfied with Steam were not bullying other people not to buy HL2! Except the lunatic on strategic group but he acted like some kind of psycho preaching end of the world on the main square.

But, in some respect wargamers that voted to not buy DG were in fact mean toward this wargaming industry because they knew that they can hurt SES more than Valve. So I compare it with sadism, when someone wants to kick you in the wound so that it hurt more. Sorry, no passaran for me! No way padre! And I will certanly not allow that SES is ruined on that way. In fact it will not be but I will certanly not keep my mouth shut.



Anyway, as anyone who has bothered to read the debate on usenet knows, Steam was talked about, as it was the recent unfamous rootkit by Sony and other schemes.


Blabla... And you went to buy today new copy of HF2 you said? And new Sony Records CD? :p


...Which would mean, in my book, that a lost sale is worse for SES than for Valve...


Yes, exactly, but I already talked about this. But it goes other way around as well what I talked is that good copy protection BRINGS SALES AS WELL. You don't agree padre? Then off you go, I will not repeat 1000 times this. You write for gaming magazine? Then why don't you ask publishers what they think about piracy issue? You read mind of all customers, they are all honest yes?
You are pretty naive about piracy issue.




Can we say that all of the above makes still more amazing the kind of stunt that is being proposed here?

No, but in worst (I hope not!) possible scanarios, SES can be really hurt by your shorthsighentness... Yes, SES can go under because of your iresponsibility...
And then all of you will be little happy wargamers.... BLJUK (throwing up)

But, I hope that this will not happen.



Me too - this is the very reason why a lot of people on usenet and the forums tried to raise awareness on the fact that some choices weren't popular at all.

OK, I am glad that you at least realize something...

But, padre, what is popular in this world? There are many things in life that are not popular but you must bear with them. Bullying other people not to buy the game if it is copy protected on this way is way out of normal. It's like NKVD comitees and political comisars that were trying to get their thinking to the rest of the flock. Let each decide on their own.

Now can we get back to decent conversation or not? Ie. I stay with my reasoning if you don't like them no problem but that's my opinion and I will not move an inch not for all Usenet wolfpacks you bring here.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

He Mario, try to guess who "Reckall" is.

Here's a tip : Mr. Gun


Eddy, really don't know who he is... He can tell if he want.


Come to Spiel 2006 in Essen and talk to me - then you'll have something to brag about :)

One of the great things about wargaming is that it's a relatively small world where fans still have a chance to talk to the key persons in the industry - I know the feeling and I like it too :)



Heh, maybe I will sometime or to Belgium... I can brag like kids, that can be fun because if serious arguments don't work I am going to kids mode. :laugh:


Mario

[eddysterckx]

Now seriously, Usenet discussion went like this, Eddy brought a notion that he will not buy the game and then Gifty said that he will not buy the game as well that have activation blablabla and they also said that it will not be possible to install it on the another PC (NOW WE SEE THAT IT IS NOT TRUE!!!) and that it will not be possible to play if SES goes under (THIS IS ALSO NOT CORRECT!!!)
And they and few other blokes bullied then some people to sign petition not to buy the game.


Mario's imagination is running wild - again.

The beauty of UseNet is that it's very easy to check the facts for the correct chain of events - in chronological order :

1) Norm Koger posted a message basically saying "Hi, guys, I've got a new game in the works, here's the url of the website"

2) People visited the website, looked around, read the FAQ and wondered what this "activation scheme" was supposed to be

3) The debate over the various possibilities of what it could mean (best case/ worst case) raged for a couple of days

4) James D Burns (note: neither Mr. Giftzwerg nor I iniated this poll) posted this :
"There are more than a few vocal members on this board who may or may not
drown out the majority opinion with their heavy posting practices, so in the interest of brevity I thought a quick poll about Norm's new game would give the developers a better idea of how the wargaming community actually feels about their new 'online activation required to play' scheme for their upcoming title Distant Guns.
For those who are unaware, you will be required to check in with an
activation server to register and unlock the game before you can play it,
which effectively means when they go out of business so does your game.
This is just a POLL, so please just respond to this post with a simple two word reply of either:
Will buy.
Won't buy.
Lets not discuss anything else here, there are several threads doing just
that already.
Thanks,
Jim "

5) The end result of the poll was that 2/3 of the people said they wouldn't buy the game, most (but not all) adding "but I would if the activation scheme was removed"

6) This last nuance became the focus of attention - whether or not the activation scheme was foolproof enough to thwart piracy (overall opinion : no), and even if it was foolproof, would pirates buy the game if they found out it couldn't be pirated (overall opinion : no) and does the activation scheme results in less sales, because it scares away potential buyers (overall opinion : yes)
The overall level of the various debates was rather technical and to the point - with an at times very agitated Mario being the only exception (what's new ...). Copy protection methods were discussed and compared, the downward trend in copy protection for wargames was adequatly documented. Nobody was "bullied", nobody "signed" anything, just a bunch of mature 30/40-somethings having a discussion with the majority opinion heavily in favour of the "activation = dumb idea" line. That's it. You can either believe Mario or you can check the facts.

Oh, and Mario, about my 4 simple questions which I posed a couple of posts above this - any idea when you're actually going to answer them instead of dancing around them ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Reckall]

And you tell me everything you want but resorting to NOT BUY the game and bullying other people to not buy as well is one of the sleaziest way that I've seen on Usenet.

You do seem to hate the Real World (tm), but we have all to live there. Not only nobody was bullied (as everyone who bothered to follow the debate can see), but I personally voted "I will buy it anyway" in the poll.


But, we will NEVER AND I REPEAT NEVER AGREED that that is the way of treating Norm Koger!


But we aren't treating Norm at all - a designer for whom everybody has the utmost respect. A majority of people on Usenet is expressing dissatisfaction about a copy protection scheme, not Norm.


Hello again Earth is calling, I have been game journalist for many years and now run a website for selling game beside other things that I do. I know game industry.


Fine. I happen to be a gaming journalist too, and when I write my review of Distant Guns I will give my opinion about the game itself and - in a separate box -a detailed description of the copy protection scheme (should it be different or unusual from the most common used ones), leaving to each reader the freedom to choose if go for the product or not. I do also warn when Starforce is used, too - this didn't stopped me to give 9 out of 10 to Silent Hunter IIII.


You may disagree that copy protection will work and I don't care - I tell you that it works and here is really discussion over on that point. There are some things that I cannot tolerate and that is that I must 100 times said some things that I think - they cannot be changed.

Why! For all my life I believed that it was up to the seller to convince the costumer, and not the other way around! :)


But, in some respect wargamers that voted to not buy DG were in fact mean toward this wargaming industry because they knew that they can hurt SES more than Valve. So I compare it with sadism, when someone wants to kick you in the wound so that it hurt more. Sorry, no passaran for me! No way padre! And I will certanly not allow that SES is ruined on that way. In fact it will not be but I will certanly not keep my mouth shut.


I have some news for you. My next comic book will need an internet activation before you are able to read it. Sure, this is annoying, since many people buy comic books to read them on train trips, at bed before sleeping, during the holidays at the seaside and in a number of other occasions where internet is not readily available.

But, hey, I'm a struggling writer, working for a struggling market, with a wife, six kids, a dozen of girlfriends, two mortages to pay and a clinical depressed cat. So, you will have to buy my next book, or you are a mean guy. And this is really all.

[eddysterckx]

... and a clinical depressed cats


Well, if that isn't a definite clue as to your true identity :)

[Frankly amazed that Mario hasn't figured it out yet]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[sonarman]

I think that the protection that Norm suggests is actually not invasive enough! I'm fed up doing the right thing and buying games whilst others just download cracked versions for free and the game companies/software developers do absolutely nothing to stop it.

I am glad to see that the company is taking a proactive approach to piracy. If it was up to me, I would have the game authorise itself on the server each and every time it was played and if not authorised and your registration details were not found- no update and no play.

As a web designer I buy Macromedia & Adobe software which now features a similar activation technology and have had zero problems with it. As a gamer I have already experienced it in the use of the German game "Ports of Call" and have had zero problems with it. I believe Norm & Jim are right this is the way forward for direct delivery games.

One feature Macromedia/Adobe do include in their system is the ability to install the software to two computers as long as you do not use the software concurrently on both machines. This would allow you to have a backup on another machine or one copy on your desktop one on your laptop etc. It might be a good idea to do this with Distant Guns to quell some of the "what if my machine explodes" paranoia.

[Redwolf]

"Norm's place"?

You sound like two guys coming into a friends house and yelling at each other all night :)

[Don Maddox]

Can we please keep it civil in here, guys?

[eddysterckx]

Do you know why Microsoft has a Windows XP Corporate that doesn't require activation on the MS server, unlike the Windows XP home/prof versions ? Because corporate IT guys like me wouldn't even *think* about installing XP on a couple of hundred pc's in a secured network.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Bloodstar]

OK Vinzenzo, I am sorry for any rude words...

I will answer later or tomorrow to all as I must help some people that works on a book right now. Then I will answer more...

I didn't know that it was you but now Eddy's hint have helped :)


NHF


Mario

[Don Maddox]

Eddy, I really don't want to enter the debate over whether this is a good idea or not. I'm content to read the comments that you and others have posted on the issue along with the responses from the developers.

I do have a question, though.

If I am reading your posts correctly -- and I may not be -- are you advocating developers/publishers completely abandoning copy protection schemes on the basis that many of these schemes are not completely effective?

It's their company/product and they can do with it what they want, but our only claim/worry is that it's going to be counterproductive saleswise.So if Distant Guns outsells most other wargames by a healthy margin, you'll be satisfied?

[NormKoger]

I am going to wade into this thing one more time, then do my very best to ignore the topic forever after...

I tired of the abuse on usenet and do not have the time to deal with it in an effective fashion, so I no longer even bother to check the posts there. Call it a personal failing if you wish, but I no longer participate in computer gaming related usenet and I do not plan to return - ever. I will continue to participate in web based fora as time allows, but only to the extent of responding to game questions or things that I find interesting. For the most part, I enjoy this. But even my participation in the discussion here has probably delayed Distant Guns' release by a couple of days. If I am actually going to push a game out the door, I do not have time to continue with this. There are excellent reasons why a lot of folks in my position communicate with gamers only via interviews. I understand those reasons better with every passing day.

Contrary to the apparent opinion of some portion of the gaming community, we developers do not devote time to protection only to amuse ourselves by pissing off our customers. No type of copy protection is completely free of problems, but some form of protection is absolutely necessary for a commercial game. Boxed games can get away with artfully corrupted media and check schemes, and downloadable products require at least one external interaction to be effective. That's why I have devoted something over 10% of my entire development effort in Distant Guns, and more than half of my communication time with gamers to the issue. Any suggestion otherwise is simply a variation on the argument that intellectual property should be free. A great deal of effort is expended by the "free software" movement to argue that "... it is best to avoid using terms like ``give away'' or ``for free'', because those terms imply that the issue is about price, not freedom..." Right. I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other about the free software / free music / free literature movement. If intellectual property rights went the way of the dodo tomorrow, I'd simply move on to something else to support my family. A non-negligible fraction of the development community prefer not to live under a bridge. We're just mean, I suppose. Granted, I would probably still tinker with game development in my spare time. My future work would join the ranks of all the other fine free game titles we gamers spend so much of our time enjoying.

Fortunately for me, I have other interests and hobbies. Some of these pastimes are fairly popular, others will probably pass away with my generation. When I was younger, stick and paper model airplanes were hugely popular. The hobby wasn't as big as when my father was a boy, but it still had a lot of life. Time passed, and folks moved on to other things. Cash stopped flowing into the design and support outfits, and so slowly that most of us didn't notice, the industry passed away. There are still a few players out there. You can find them if you look hard enough. I built a Dumas stick and paper P6-E a couple of years ago - a rather nice kit. The vast majority of kits still available via internet sales (good luck finding a decent hobby shop) are a bit older, though a few were designed as recently as 1969. Those of us who got into computer games via board wargaming can tell a similar story. Remember all the games and miniatures you could find 20 years ago? Even computer wargamers who have been around for more than a few years can remember when the computer game industry was all about our kind of game. Industries adapt or die. Folks who believe computer gaming as we know it can't wither away should spend a bit of time talking with their friends who play board wargames or build stick and paper airplanes. Customers either see enough value in the products of an industry to support it, or they do not. The pollsters may have it right, though I do not believe they are. It could well be that resistance to protection will be strong enough to further force the industry toward producing only mass market mega-titles. There's nothing good or bad about that. It simply is.

FACT: In the current environment for digitally transmittable products explicitly designed for computer use: No copy protection = no incentive to purchase = no cash for developers = industry goes the way of stick and paper model airplanes. If gamers find protection too onerous, they will pass on the protected products. "Piracy" or resistance to protection; either way, no sale means no return on investment. I am hardly one to complain about that, because I am a gamer too. I understand the thinking. It took something like a year after release for me to finally give in and do the Steam thing because I wanted to play Half Life 2. (When I did, I enjoyed it. HL2 is a great game, and Steam isn't a monster.) I am a free market libertarian, and I am perfectly happy to let the market decide where I should spend my work time. That's good, because unlike some of my more "progressive" friends I strongly suspect that is going to happen regardless of my preferences. Mercantile Darwinism rules.

And that, friends, is the lay of the ground. It's where I live, and whether you know it or not, it's where you live too.

Wow, time does pass when you're having fun. Three hours... Time for lunch. Well, maybe I can get around to finishing up campaign game battle spawning tomorrow. I wonder what the black helicopter crowd will make of this.

[Rhetor]

Both myself and Jim Cobb have full versions of the game


:blab: Hey, man, do you really have to brag about it?! ;)

[Jim Cobb]

Not quite full; no campaign yet. Also, writing about a game ruins it for me for a week or so.

[Reckall]

Copy protection schemes are effective against the casual copying of games by casual people. Not everybody has the technical knowledge or the will to spend time to know how to illegally copy/obtain/download a game.

BUT, and it is a big "but", if you really wish to learn how to get illegal games over the internet and/or where to find means to circumvent their protection schemes, then, as of 2006, this is not hard at all. A tutorial could take a post about as long as this one.

This, I wish to underline, has nothing to do with ethics or morality, i.e. the willingness to commit the illegal act by itself.

Problem is: some copy-protection schemes can cause problems to legit costumers. I will not go into each and every one case, since there are many, but, as an example, let's say that, should something happen to an original "unbackupable" CD, it will be the casual gamer to be in trouble, and not the pirate (or the gamer possessing knowledge about how to circumvent copy protection).

At the end, I feel that only the relative popularity of games like Distant Guns will decide if "professional pirates" (for the lack of a better term) will bother to crack its protection and distribute the files or the instructions to do it by yourself. But if pirates decide to have a go at it - maybe just because it is an interesting challenge, then my money is on that they will be able to do it. At this point, only the casual gamers will suffer from the problems (if any) caused by DG's protection. A legit costumer could even be annoyed enough to decide to do some research and learn how to crack the game just to get rid of an unpopular scheme. It already happened in the past.

[Reckall]

Norm, there is a basic, fundamental point in this whole discussion that I feel is - for unknown reasons - costantly misinterpreted:


FACT: In the current environment for digitally transmittable products explicitly designed for computer use: No copy protection = no incentive to purchase = no cash for developers = industry goes the way of stick and paper model airplanes. If gamers find protection too onerous, they will pass on the protected products.


The debate is not about copy protection at all. The debate is about the specific copy-protection scheme employed by DG. No one, or at least not the majority, is against the concept of copy protection itself, and you will not see anywhere substantial complains about the methods employed, for example, by Matrix or HPS. This is a fact, too.

Having said that, there is one last thing:

But even my participation in the discussion here has probably delayed Distant Guns' release by a couple of days. If I am actually going to push a game out the door, I do not have time to continue with this.

Well, we eagerly awaited your game for YEARS. My personal feeling is that, if you decide/have decided to spend a couple of days to consider an issue that is causing unusual concerns, then I will be quite happy to have suffered for two more days :)

[Bullethead]

Not quite full; no campaign yet. Also, writing about a game ruins it for me for a week or so.

Hey Jim. Long time no see. I'm one of your long-lost Delphi CF24 buds. How's things?

[Jim Cobb]

Bullethead,

You old sonuvagun, how's it going? I'm busier than a good fieldgoal kicker on a mediocre team. I keep in touch with only a few of the old gang like John Heydt. Sadly, Steve Hartzell passed.

Did you read my piece on the Russo-Japanese War?

[Bullethead]

Bullethead,

You old sonuvagun, how's it going? I'm busier than a good fieldgoal kicker on a mediocre team. I keep in touch with only a few of the old gang like John Heydt. Sadly, Steve Hartzell passed.

Damn, I hadn't heard that. I'm still in close touch with Cliff Holmes (aka von Holmes the Magnificent, Konig der Krim) and Sturmer (aka Greg Smith, late of HPS). The former recently had a heart attack but is OK now, apparently. The latter r