Germans in the Middle East

[Mark Stevens]

Has anyone been playing the version with the limited German deployment in North Africa long enough to have any comments on whether it works or not?

[Mark Stevens]

Oh come on. Anyone?

[Bdr.Mallette]

lol....

Not yet for me!

There is one game I'd definitely like to start over but will trudge thru it till '43 when I capture Berlin but....!


Any tips for very large scenarios Mark? (other than a case of beer in the fridge)!


bdr.

[Dan Neely]

There is one game I'd definitely like to start over but will trudge thru it till '43 when I capture Berlin but....!


Piker.

I captured Berlin with the Brits and Frogs before Stalin got involved once. :)

[JAMiAM]

Pelle and I are on turn 102. We've had some incredible back and forth in the Mediterranean. He's the Axis, and has made a pretty good effort there. I spanked him pretty badly when I drove back an early incursion into the Levant, but due to my flubbing an Allied Invasion of Spain, he's taken Portugal, Gibraltar and Malta. I've got a solid bridgehead in Morocco, and we're stalemated in Egypt at Mersa Matruh. So far, I'd have to say that it definitely adds a good balance to the scenario.

[Mark Stevens]

I'm in the early stages (turn 90ish) of a game, but my opponent only put two of the three armoured divisions forming the panzer unit into North Africa, and hasn't committed the motorised division activated by the Axis capture of Crete*. With the victorious Commonwealth forces from East Africa and some judicious reinforcements from the UK (I'm determined to keep Malta and Gibraltar to stop any more units of the formation from being activated) the Allies have knocked out Vichy Syria and pushed the mainly Italian forces in the Desert back to El Agheila. The latter were mainly infantry corps with one armoured and one mechanised corps. All the Commonwealth units are pretty battered and I think that I need to rest before trying for anything more ambitious.

France, the Low Countries, Greece and Yugoslavia all Axis controlled of course.

The question did arise of whether limiting the number of German units but still allowing an unlimited number of Commonwealth forces to operate in the Desert has tipped the balance the other way, i.e. with nothing else to do but guard the coasts of the UK and the two Mediterranean fortresses the Allies can afford to put an awful lot into the Desert, provided that Spain remains neutral and you're not going to try for a very early return to the Continent.

*Which presumably means that I'm in for a hell of an attack when 'Barbarossa' begins.

[Veers]

Has anyone been playing the version with the limited German deployment in North Africa long enough to have any comments on whether it works or not?
What would constitute it 'working'? The campaign being more balanced?

[Mark Stevens]

The cessation of an endless stream of moans and groans from players that allowing unlimited German deployment guaranteed the Axis the ability to win decisively in the Desert, and sweep unhindered across the Levant and into the soft Caucasian underbelly of the Soviet Union.

This was when more than you, I, and the ever-faithful Mantis were playing the scenario.

Having played a couple of times with the limited German deployment I think you now get more of a historical result in the Middle East, although the intention isn't that every game is an exact repetition of what actually happened.

[Mark Stevens]

I was right in my post of 11th Feb last year, in that when my opponent eventually attacked in the East he was able to take Moscow and Leningrad by mid-1942effectively ending the game, even though the Allies won in the Middle East, invaded Italy and actually forced its surrender.

[Veers]

Wow. Too bad you couldn't push hard enough to get the Germans to send more reserves to Italy...:(
For the record, I am at turn 70 in my oldest EA game and the desert is deadlocked, sitting at El Alamein.
And I'm more than sure that more than you, I, and Mantis are playing. :) At the very least my two opponents (other than Mantis), Shadow and Wonderwall are also playing :nuts:

[Mark Stevens]

Probably Mantis under various aliases: for all I know you might be him!

[JAMiAM]

Chris (Killorbekilled) and I are on turn 105. It's been moving slowly because of my atrocious turnaround time.

I'm the Axis in this one, and am slogging through the Caucasus, while blitzing the steppes. The limited number of German units has made it (the Mediterranean Strategy) more of a challenge than previous games.

[Mantis]

Owing to all the old games I have going, I have yet to start more than one game of the versions that contain this change. And so far, I can report it to be a real pain to get anything German to Africa. I only have the DAK available so far, but they are busy blitzing through France, via Italy. And since, by the vagaries of combat, they also happen to be my lead korps, they will likely not be extracted from the line for some turns to come.

In the meantime, Veers is patiently *****slapping my pathetic Italians on the Egypt border, easily retaking what I had gained with superiority of numbers. I have ample reserves, so there are no worries about an Allied offensive, but I'm feeling the strain already.

So yes, thus far, it's feeling good. :laugh:

[Veers]

Owing to all the old games I have going, I have yet to start more than one game of the versions that contain this change. And so far, I can report it to be a real pain to get anything German to Africa. I only have the DAK available so far, but they are busy blitzing through France, via Italy. And since, by the vagaries of combat, they also happen to be my lead korps, they will likely not be extracted from the line for some turns to come.

In the meantime, Veers is patiently *****slapping my pathetic Italians on the Egypt border, easily retaking what I had gained with superiority of numbers. I have ample reserves, so there are no worries about an Allied offensive, but I'm feeling the strain already.

So yes, thus far, it's feeling good. :laugh:
Regarding that turn, I was in the middle of getting it back to you, by Frances has insisted that I stop and watch a movie with her. :( Expect it bright and early tomorrow morning. :D

[Raver]

My experience of the desert now has been very much one of stalemate since the germans got restricted in terms of what they could move down there. I have been wondering, though, whether with the additional events opened up by TOAW3 it might be possible to do something a bit flasher with north africa. I was thinking of vastly restricting the sealift that the axis have, so that sealift is only available on certain game turns (eg the one after dow on Norway), and put in a TO that gives the axis player the option of several turns additional sealift to move troops into the med, but at the cost of lowered sealift later in the game, or some withdrawn unit disbands to simulate additional effort going into getting them across the med and keeping them supplied there.

Just a thought. I guess the other approach would be simply to put limitations on allied deployment in north africa, if the experience of stalemate is common???

[Veers]

My experience of the desert now has been very much one of stalemate since the germans got restricted in terms of what they could move down there. I have been wondering, though, whether with the additional events opened up by TOAW3 it might be possible to do something a bit flasher with north africa. I was thinking of vastly restricting the sealift that the axis have, so that sealift is only available on certain game turns (eg the one after dow on Norway), and put in a TO that gives the axis player the option of several turns additional sealift to move troops into the med, but at the cost of lowered sealift later in the game, or some withdrawn unit disbands to simulate additional effort going into getting them across the med and keeping them supplied there.

Just a thought. I guess the other approach would be simply to put limitations on allied deployment in north africa, if the experience of stalemate is common???
Well, having gotten to the point real desert warfare in only one of my games so far, the result has been a stalemate, however, I had diverted the DAK to Syria, instead of Libya-Egypt.
I will report how my second game goes, when I get there. :D

[viridomaros]

hey Shane, no more Ea turns for viri :smoke:

[Veers]

My experience of the desert now has been very much one of stalemate since the germans got restricted in terms of what they could move down there. I have been wondering, though, whether with the additional events opened up by TOAW3 it might be possible to do something a bit flasher with north africa. I was thinking of vastly restricting the sealift that the axis have, so that sealift is only available on certain game turns (eg the one after dow on Norway), and put in a TO that gives the axis player the option of several turns additional sealift to move troops into the med, but at the cost of lowered sealift later in the game, or some withdrawn unit disbands to simulate additional effort going into getting them across the med and keeping them supplied there.

Just a thought. I guess the other approach would be simply to put limitations on allied deployment in north africa, if the experience of stalemate is common???
Alternately, one could have a system whereby TOs show up at given times allowing one to convert the X Pz Corps to the DAK. THe X Pz Corps is then withdrawn and sometime later DAK X Pz Corps arrived in Taranto. This would come at a loss of supply (1 or 2) for a set length of time (1,2,3, or 6 months, or the entire game). Thus making it possible for the Germans to put a concerted effort into Afrika, but at a loss to the rest of the war due to having to put so much more effort into the Afrikan campaign.

[Mark Stevens]

We could introduce something like this if the strict one island/port = one extra German unit is too limiting.

Assume that Raeder and Kesselring are right and that the Germans could have made more effort in the Mediterranean, even without the actual capture of Malta, Gibraltar, etc. Kesselring certainly writes in his memoirs that the existing Italian ports could have handled more traffic with an injection of German efficiency and better convoy arrangements.

What do we reckon? Keep the current Panzer Army Afrika and the bonus units, but add TOs to convert - say - one normal German reinforcement infantry (mountain?) corps every six months for two years(?) to DAK colours and have it appear in Tripoli, disbanding the scheduled European-based reinforcement? That's certainly possible with the extra Events. Maybe the TO disappears if it isn't taken by the time the next unit becomes available?

Or we could have them appear in desert colours in Southern German or an Italian port so that the Axis has to use up shipping capacity to move them across the Mediterranean.

We don't want to overdo it, otherwise we're back to flooding the Desert with Germans. And it's too much to allow whole panzer or mechanised corps to be converted - the shipping and fuel just wasn't there, but a potential extra four infantry corps, spread over two years, might be reasonable.

Anyone any thoughts? This is something that could be implemented fairly easily without putting any strain on the fragile Event structure.

[Veers]

We could introduce something like this if the strict one island/port = one extra German unit is too limiting.

First, and foremost, I'm not convinced that the current system is defunt (HAHA, and here I am suggesting possible changes:clown:). I think we should continue until a few more people have played through the current version before changign anything.



What do we reckon? Keep the current Panzer Army Afrika and the bonus units, but add TOs to convert - say - one normal German reinforcement infantry (mountain?) corps every six months for two years(?) to DAK colours and have it appear in Tripoli, disbanding the scheduled European-based reinforcement? That's certainly possible with the extra Events. Maybe the TO disappears if it isn't taken by the time the next unit becomes available
Or we could have them appear in desert colours in Southern German or an Italian port so that the Axis has to use up shipping capacity to move them across the Mediterranean.
Keep the current DAK. Have the TOs. Have the new units arrive in Taranto (or other Italian port, or where the DAK arrives now. the Axis must use their sea trans to move them). Have the TOs disappear if not used. Are not the Mountain Korps without transport? If so, they would be less usefull in the desert.



We don't want to overdo it, otherwise we're back to flooding the Desert with Germans. And it's too much to allow whole panzer or mechanised corps to be converted - the shipping and fuel just wasn't there, but a potential extra four infantry corps, spread over two years, might be reasonable.
Why would it be too much to see a Panzer Korps converted to the DAK? Just make the price steep. Make the supply of the Axis go down by 1 for an Inf Korps, and 2 or 3 for a Panzer Korps (or more severe supply penalties). This would emulate the extra effort being poured into the North African theatre at the expense of the other theatres of war.