View Full Version : Gamey Play
Mad Russian
16 Dec 05, 21:12
What is gamey play?
Using the edge of the map...splitting squads...using snipers/crews for recon...sending jeeps or trucks on recon...whatever you think it is.
To me there is one hard and fast rule. Men in combat will do whatever it takes to win. Period. IMO, you cannot do anything, think of anything, come up with anything that would be considered more gamey than what many men have done in actual combat.
Driving down the edge of the map...if the scenario designer doesn't want the map edge used he'll restrict movement over there. Otherwise, I hate to tell you this, it's part of the playing area. It's part of the battle map. You get to use all of it!! I have some scenarios if you don't use the map edge YOU LOSE THE SCENARIO!!!
Splitting squads...there is an inherent risk splitting squads. They take a morale level reduction when they split. They are more brittle. It also takes less firepower to effectively take the unit out of the battle. In some cases you will gain some firepower advantages but there are times when smaller units are more effective than larger ones. Think about the evolution of tactical combat. The term "empty battlefield" comes to mind. The more our tactics evolve the smaller our units become.
Sniper/crew recon...snipers to me are nothing more than a single man or two man team. The term sniper doesn't mean that they are school trained with a sniper rifle. To me it means an individual or two that are woods savy. That can move around in nature with ease and are a good shot. I have no problem using them for recon.
Crews I rarely use for recon. Not because I think there is anything wrong with it. I just don't think the information I can normally gain using them for recon will offset their value. Crews are very valuable point wise. That said, there are times that I will use them for recon. If the lead tank gets hit and the crew bails in say scattered woods. I'll have them hide right there. Still giving me eyes in the neighborhood.
Trucks and Jeeps on Recon... Send them. I'll hold my fire for something larger. Covered arc's take this tactic out. Other less important weapons systems can take care of this problem, like an ATR or LMG for instance. Just give me the points for them when I kill them.
Double stacking mines...putting more than one mine field in a single location to up the minefield value. Is there a limit to the number of mines I can put in a 20 x 20 meter square? Yes, but more than likely not by CM standards unless you start putting more than 10 of them in the same location. Did you get that many mines to be able to dot that?
Vehicles/ATG's inside buildings...this was often done when the defender had time to get them inside or if the building was large enough to accomodate them.
Just to name a few.
Good Hunting.
MR
liuzg150181
16 Dec 05, 22:12
Nice list........but the point of the thread is?
Mad Russian
17 Dec 05, 00:25
Nice list........but the point of the thread is?
The point is that what some players consider gamey often times have a logical reason for being. I have seen more threads on what gamers consider gamey tactics and how it sets them to ranting about the their worst ever peeves of the game.
In reality, men play the game of real combat to win. That's because to them it's not a game. Their lives are at stake.
I see gamers constantly complain that there are gamey tactics being used on them that they don't like.
But here is a list of some real Gamey Play...
Soldiers in enemy uniforms.
Captured enemy vehicles used to confuse the enemy.
Devices used to make frog and cricket sounds to communicate with.
Booby trapped pictures that are hung crooked on the wall. Waiting for you to straighten the picture.
A wounded man used to draw his buddies out so that they can then shoot them.
You'll love this one, vehicles used to recon areas by highspeed recon, trying to get the enemy to reveal where their AT assets are.
All of these things, and thousands more, that real soldiers use everyday to stay alive, and outwit each other, are not available in CM.
Try leading your column with a captured vehicle. In real life that could confuse the enemy and you might get away with it. You won't in CM. CM immediately ID's that as an enemy vehicle.
Speak German? Want to talk to each other in German? Or with frog clickers? Go ahead, CM can tell your German from theirs. And CM HATES frog clickers and gives your position away immediately. You are instantly ID'ed as being Americans and fired on.
This is my all time favorite. "I hate map edge runners!!! :mad: Am I supposed to think that the guys on my flank are too stupid to do anything but sit there and watch while he moves his whole force in front of them?" Who said you controlled the areas of the flanks on this map?! What if I do? Do you think my guys might sit back and watch my guys moving through this area with reacting to it? What if there is a hill there, or a lake, or anything else but wide open terrain that only your troops can respond to?!!
My point is this, anything that you can think of to do in CM is very little, compared to what soldiers in real life come up with daily, to save their own lives. A complaint to me about gamey play means to me that you got beat and now you want to pin the blame. Like the Soviet Commander that lost the bridge when the Germans captured it following a T-34 they put at the head of their column.
I have gone through the listing of pages of posts on this forum and it is full of guys complaining that they don't like a particular given tactic because it's gamey. Real life is full of gamey tactics that CM doesn't even come close to allowing you to use. I see nothing wrong with using whatever CM allows, however it allows you to win the game. There are checks and balances for each and every "gamey tactic" in CM. IMO, instead of spending so much time complaining that they got beat because of a "gamey" tactic they need to learn what those are and how to defend against them.
How would you feel if you were the regimental commander of the guy that lost the bridge to the Germans leading their column with a captured T-34? What would your answer have been to him when he told you the Germans cheated because they weren't supposed to use Soviet tanks to lead their advance. Your men couldn't recognize that they were Germans that way.
How would you feel as the battalion commander having to report the loss of that bridge because your men were fooled.
How does it look in these forums when guys complain that they were tricked and that just shouldn't happen ever again. If that guy continues to trick me I'm not playing with him any more. In real life that would be true. You wouldn't play with him any more.
You would have been relieved of your command.
Good Hunting.
MR
Nemesis Lead
17 Dec 05, 02:12
I tend to agree with you--almost anything goes.
Three pet peeves are:
1) Flag rushing (but this is unavoidable since this is a game)
2) Using units like ATRs and bazookas as scouts (but, as Russian says, go ahead and use vehicle crews--they will cost you a lot of points and they don't spot well).
3) Using large numbers of gamey units (e.g., Italian Airborne Units have SMG infantry that have 54 points of ammo--this is clearly a mistake in CM).
However, I would almost never confront someone on these (except the Italian SMG infantry--that is a load of crap).
What I really don't like is people who "stack the deck" PRE-GAME. Using custom maps that favor them or wanting to play unbalanced scenarios / time frames. Another favorite is the guy who wants variable rarity and then wants to set up. He keeps on restarting the game unit he gets cheap 150mm Inf Guns, Panthers, etc.
In my mind, one person proposes the game and then lets his opponent choose the sides. This forces people to be fair in what they recommend. OR one can play two games where you and your opponent swap sides.
Full Monty
17 Dec 05, 02:32
As a fairly general point, the CM series are 'only' games with their own little quirks, errors and historical inaccuracies. Gentlemen's agreements are the only way to avoid frustration over how opponents 'exploit' the game. Otherwise 'All is fair in love and war (and CM :) )!'
I find 'em then fix 'em and then I blow 'em the crap up(if they hadn't done that to me yet ;) ) Other than that any strategy/game play that helps me survive most of the battle works for me.
BTW I dont play for points I play for fun and to just keep my mind busy so.... any tank crews in view of the enemy go on suicide recon missions that pay off in the end. And same goes for every other vehicle and gun crew of any kind.
So dont be surprised when that elite King Tiger Tank crew comes wondering into your lines.
Semper Fi Carry On
Kawaiku
Mad Russian
17 Dec 05, 03:26
So dont be surprised when that elite King Tiger Tank crew comes wondering into your lines.
Semper Fi Carry On
Kawaiku
I guess then you won't feel bad when I kill them and they are worth more than a Panther will you?! Bring them on over...
Good Hunting.
MR
liuzg150181
17 Dec 05, 10:02
In conclusion,"when in game be a gamer"~~~:D
In conclusion,"when in game be a gamer"~~~:D Are there any limitations to that philosophy...or is that a carte blanche to use the gamiest methods one can think up? :cheeky:
liuzg150181
17 Dec 05, 10:45
Are there any limitations to that philosophy...or is that a carte blanche to use the gamiest methods one can think up? :cheeky:
No hacking of any sort,that's all i would say~~~ :devil:
Well I look at it this way, any tank crew not in a tank is useless, so their best job is scouting and if they die I know who killed them and what direction they might be heading. And the same goes for all vehicles and their crews. I just dont care about the pionts I just like haven a good old battle and nothing else.
Nemesis Lead
17 Dec 05, 12:11
In real life, trained tank crews were extremely valuable (there was a shortage on both sides). CM does a great job of representing this by having the crews be worth a lot of points.
If you care about winning.....attacking with crews is a bad idea.
Full Monty
17 Dec 05, 12:14
Well I look at it this way, any tank crew not in a tank is useless, so their best job is scouting and if they die I know who killed them and what direction they might be heading. And the same goes for all vehicles and their crews. I just dont care about the pionts I just like haven a good old battle and nothing else.
If you're not having fun, why bother? It's only a game after all :D
In larger scenarios, particularly those that are not QBs, I tend to use 'de-horsed' crews to secure objective flags in rear areas or to keep a watchful eye on my flanks in case my opponent decides to 'improvise' ;)
Mad Russian
17 Dec 05, 12:23
If you're not having fun, why bother? It's only a game after all :D
I tend to use 'de-horsed' crews to secure objective flags in rear areas or to keep a watchful eye on my flanks in case my opponent decides to 'improvise' ;)
I agree fully with your viewpoint.
My most common use for "out of work" crews is to secure flags in the rear as well. Or to hide in place where they were hit to give me eyes to what got them in the first place. But I rarely move them towards the enemy in scouting or attack missions.
Good Hunting.
MR
My view of gamey tactics is limited to the "gaming" of the flaws of the CM system and using those things to achieve an unfair advantage. Two such items that I can think of off the top of my head are:
1. map edge mombo--in the real world, the world is not flat and you do not fall off into nothingness. But in the game this is the case. There is no map edge on the real battlefield.
2. massive use of split squads--as Battlefront has told us, their game engine is not designed for this. So the advantage of doing this comes from a game engine flaw.
My view of gamey tactics is limited to the "gaming" of the flaws of the CM system and using those things to achieve an unfair advantage. Two such items that I can think of off the top of my head are:
1. map edge mombo--in the real world, the world is not flat and you do not fall off into nothingness. But in the game this is the case. There is no map edge on the real battlefield.
2. massive use of split squads--as Battlefront has told us, their game engine is not designed for this. So the advantage of doing this comes from a game engine flaw.Of all the possible gamey things one can do those two are things I wouldn't consider gamey at all.
How does a map edge give an unfair advantage if you're covering it? It's part of the map after all so what is a player to do, intentionally avoid it like it doesn't exist? Wouldn't that approach be just as artificial?
Split squads are double-edged: less fire power and morale but greater numbers. If it's a real concern you could always split your own to match numbers. Look at it this way - if you are attacking a position do you want your squads bunched together in tight 8 to 12 man groups or spread out?
Hmmm I have StuH42 sitting at the flag (which was Friendly controlled at the end of the last turn and now it's neutral at the beginning of the "movie" file - why?
(see atch)
Because my opponent is "rushing" a 1/2T at it at the beginning of the movie turn.
Do you think that this 1/2 track survived more than 30 seconds after this turn?
He** NO.
Notice that this "anything is good with me" tactic did it's intended job, flipping the flag to neutral for this turn.
Some of you guys just kill me with your: "you should just do a better job at defending," or "anything is fair," or "in REAL LIFE..."
Gamey is anything that takes undue advantage of the GAME SYSTEM that the designers did not intend to happen.
Do you really think in REAL LIFE this 1/2T crew would have said, "sure boss we'll drive right up in front of that Stug KNOWING that we'll all be blown to bits and mangled in 30 seconds leaving our wives and children alone just to say we "held" that sappling for 1/2 a minute?
"BUT WAIT! If the battle ends after we drive up we'll do it, go! Go!"
And:
As far as using "map edges," man talk about gamey play in QB's.
It's hard to avoid in some QB's but in designed scenarios designers SHOULD have already designed the map to either avoid this problem (terrain or setup areas) or make it part of the tactical planning (as MR said) for the scenario.
A defender has two problems with map edges-
1. Will my opponent play the "game" and go for the "victory before him", or
2. Will my opponent play the system?
Using #1- my opponent will play the game vs me and assume (like I do) that the world (battle) does not end at imaginary lines and we'll have fun.
Or using 2, every frigging loop hole is up for explotation, even pretending that both of "his" flanks are secured and mine are "up in the air" and instead of playing the "game" I have to anticipate what even the designers didn't.
Gamey play is gamey play, the best defense against it is to say- no thanks to rematches against players who use such tactics.
I argee with the suicide flag rush business, but - pardon my denseness :confused: - I fail to see why the map edges are an issue. If the center or a wing had good approaches to the objectives then the opponent would account for that with ambushes and traps. Why is the edge any different in that regard? How would you have players play the edges? How much room in meters should a player space units to avoid the edge, in order not to be considered gamey? Another view is that if a player crams too many units tight to the edge then he's susceptible to well placed TRPs or HE.
jaegertech
17 Dec 05, 21:22
I argee with the suicide flag rush business, but - pardon my denseness :confused: - I fail to see why the map edges are an issue. If the center or a wing had good approaches to the objectives then the opponent would account for that with ambushes and traps. Why is the edge any different in that regard? How would you have players play the edges? How much room in meters should a player space units to avoid the edge, in order not to be considered gamey? Another view is that if a player crams too many units tight to the edge then he's susceptible to well placed TRPs or HE.
I don't really see edge-hugging as a problem when on offense, but defenders who create unflankable trenches are a real PITA. Really, if you see much edge-hugging, just consider moving that little map size selector away from small or medium.
Thanks Monty for the idea of using tank crews as rear flag guards and flank watchers. Most of the time they recon and or fight in the frontline with my troops to put more lead flyin at the enemy and on rare occasions they ambush the enemy and engage in hand-to-hand( they defeated whole squads on some occasions).
Example of it in action: In the HSG Cats and Crocs a one of my churchills got knocked out and I had the crew bolster my shaky frontline and helped repel several attacks before my troops surrendered without my permission :( (so they were promptly shot). Sometimes they hold up and enemy attack in ambushes for several turns and allow me to flank 'em and then take 'em out. I dont know but I am realizing I am a little unorthadox at my tactics.
Map edges are only (gamey) played when the terrain provides protection from "one side only" that towards the enemy. Obviously no matter the terrain on the "other side" which could be completely open & flat.
Hugging the edge (in my book) is when an attacking player (or even in an ME) sends his units (usually vehicles) into the last 20m of map & moves a good majority of them up it til he finds a good attack position- again usually behind the defenders lines. And it doesn't matter if I can swing units over to defend him or I should have defended that last 20m of map with 95% of my own units... (although purely as an issue it's not high up on the gamey list)
It comes down to- "my opponent couldn't find a decent lane of advance for his main attack in the other 98% of the map?"
There's a big difference in the "Flank" having a good approach and an opponent using the last 20m of map and a safety wall. A flank can be anything from 1/2 the map to 50-100m wide.
As far as placing TRP's- are you going to waste a TRP & spotter to cover .05% of the map? Assuming to cover this "lane" he can't LOS anything else of worth?
jaegertech quote- "Really, if you see much edge-hugging, just consider moving that little map size selector away from small or medium."
:laugh:, I never considered it to be used much in small maps (usually never enough time for "flanking" in them), but with maps that are medium to large. But we are talking about QB's almost exclusively here so map edge terrain can never be certain to eliminate such problems.
As far as placing TRP's- are you going to waste a TRP & spotter to cover .05% of the map? Assuming to cover this "lane" he can't LOS anything else of worth? If I have my mechanics correct you don't need a LOS to TRPs to get a good effective pattern (and OBA accuracy isn't affected) and the barrage will start in 10 seconds to 1 minute max. TRPs are cheap and I like to purchase a handful for key locations. The map edge might or might not be one of those locations. Combined with a sprinkling of a few LMG34s as forward watch points you can tell if he's using the edges and when to use the TRP. If you'd use these tactics on the map proper then why not the edge? MEs are a different story IMO as the possible advantage/use exists for both sides typically.
Then again I rarely play on AI-generated QB maps. :)
Mad Russian
18 Dec 05, 10:09
But we are talking about QB's almost exclusively here so map edge terrain can never be certain to eliminate such problems.
Really?! Not one single comment that I have made since I got here has been about QB's! I've never played one and don't intend starting now!
Could be we need to determine what we're talking about BEFORE we all get up in arms about comparing apples to oranges... :eek:
With QB's and I'll assume Ladder Games, I have also never played a Ladder Game, I can see where buying your troops could lead to some situations that you want to avoid. I'm not sure I would play the guy that only wants 10,000 point battles so he can buy KT's every time either!
Rushing the flag is still a legitimate tactic. So is map edge movement. I'm not backing away from those two no matter what method of play you are using.
Good Hunting.
MR
Really?! Not one single comment that I have made since I got here has been about QB's! I've never played one and don't intend starting now!
Could be we need to determine what we're talking about BEFORE we all get up in arms about comparing apples to oranges... :eek: I thought the thread was on gamey play and not necessarily on scenario gamey play? :confused:
With QB's and I'll assume Ladder Games, I have also never played a Ladder Game, I can see where buying your troops could lead to some situations that you want to avoid. I'm not sure I would play the guy that only wants 10,000 point battles so he can buy KT's every time either! Picking troops in QBs is not a problem if you establish all your guidelines ahead of time.
jaegertech
18 Dec 05, 12:40
:laugh:, I never considered it to be used much in small maps (usually never enough time for "flanking" in them), but with maps that are medium to large. But we are talking about QB's almost exclusively here so map edge terrain can never be certain to eliminate such problems.
Like I said, I've never really noticed it to be a problem when used by the attacking team. A bunch of attackers that are edge-hugging are a prime candidate for some large bore HE, a few seconds of rout, and "oops, all your men just disappeared from existence, damned flat world." The opponent uses a somewhat gamey tactic and pays the gamey price.
Now, defenders on small maps who are shoved into a corner or within meters of a map edge really piss me off. Trenches make them hard to shock, they can essentially only worry about a third to half of the normal approaches they'd have to guard.
Play on large maps and you can avoid that. Sure it means that some of the victory flags will have to be sacrificed, but I believe that having to sacrifice defensive locations and terrain because you don't have enough men is a very realistic problem to have to deal with.
Rushing the flag is still a legitimate tactic... I'm not backing away from those two no matter what method of play you are using.
I can see how rushing the flag on the last turn is "allowed by the game," but an opponent can never expect a second game vs me if he does it win or lose, especially as "rushing the flag" has been defined = "gamey."
Plus I'm sure to make note of it in the comments so others will know this guys "style."
Just because you can do it does not make it right, but to each his own. :salute:
Mad Russian
18 Dec 05, 21:30
I can see how rushing the flag on the last turn is "allowed by the game," but an opponent can never expect a second game vs me if he does it win or lose, especially as "rushing the flag" has been defined = "gamey."
Plus I'm sure to make note of it in the comments so others will know this guys "style."
Just because you can do it does not make it right, but to each his own. :salute:
Rushing the flag can mean several things to different people. In your case it seems to mean that in the last 3 seconds of this battle a HT runs up against a Panther and flips the flag! AND THAT IS GAMEY!
What of Omaha Beach then? General Bradley was minutes away from stopping the attack on that beach and moving the follow up forces to Utah Beach. If but for a couple of men moving forward...not even rushing the flag...but just moving forward he continued the attack.
Here is my problem with your interpretation as I understand it of what you think rushing the flag is. You seem to think that the battle ends exactly at the moment that the game ends.
"Ah crap! You flipped my flag! That's not fair, I could have killed you!" But you don't know that the commander of your troops, not you - your boss, didn't see the enemy troops at the location and call your men back! The flags are as much about what will happen 5 minutes, an hour and a day after the game ends as they ever were about the exact end of the game. For me at least.
The situation is that you must capture the bridge. Noramlly you don't get all day to do it. There is a set amount of time allotted to most attacks. So if you don't have the bridge by XX:00 hours we call the attack off. If you own the bridge great! IF you have men on that bridge then we'll see.
General Patton couldn't play CM against you Palantir. He had a thing he called Rock Soup. He wasn't supposed to attack but he would. He wasn't given supplies so he would get himself in trouble so that the Army Group would have to support him. He did gamey things to win. You should never have an M8 Greyhound shoot at a Panther because if he kills it that is gamey. Even though a Panther was knocked out in the Battle of the Bulge from a headon shot from an M8. I guess they forgot to tell them that it was going to be a gamey shot and if you kill him they won't play with you anymore.
How can you tell me that if I still have turns left I'm supposed to stop trying to gain control of the flags? Have you ever thought of only playing variable ending games where rushing the flag isn't an issue since you don't know when the end of the game is? Or is there a set amount of time from the end that you can't attack either?
This is getting very confusing to me. No wonder I never play QB's or Ladder Games. You guys have too many gamey rules.
Good Hunting.
MR
jaegertech
18 Dec 05, 23:17
Mad Russian, I believe this has been stated very simply many times, but I will attempt to reiterate.
Flag Rushing:
In the closing moments of the game, sending an inadequate unit to a suicidal position in order to capture or contest a flag for only a few seconds. This tactic only succeeds because the GAME ENDS AT A SPECIFIC MOMENT. This is not a maneuver that would be attempted on any other turn, as the unit would die. By your own words, a commander never knew when his unit would be recalled. A flag-rush exploits knowledge of the exact moment a battle will end.
This is the only complaint I (and by extension, most of the people who complain about flag-rushing) have. If you have an attack that develops well in the final three turns, or even on the final turn, GOOD FOR YOU. That is a battle well fought. Zero complaints.
Mad Russian
18 Dec 05, 23:41
[QUOTE=jaegertech]Mad Russian, I believe this has been stated very simply many times, but I will attempt to reiterate.
Flag Rushing:
A flag-rush exploits knowledge of the exact moment a battle will end.
QUOTE]
Then I ask again...why have games that end on an exact turn? Why not use variable endings and not have flag rushing be the huge issue it is now?
Good Hunting.
MR
In your case it seems to mean that in the last 3 seconds of this battle a HT runs up against a Panther and flips the flag! AND THAT IS GAMEY! :yes1:
What of Omaha Beach then? I would guess that an Allied DUCK will flag rush a bunker... :confused:
Here is my problem with your interpretation as I understand it of what you think rushing the flag is. You seem to think that the battle ends exactly at the moment that the game ends.
:hmmm:, because it does! :crosseye:
"Ah crap! You flipped my flag! That's not fair, I could have killed you!" But you don't know that the commander of your troops, not you - your boss, didn't see the enemy troops at the location and call your men back! :hmmm: because he doesn't, and my troops wouldn't be dumb enough to turn our backs on the enemy sitting in the open 10m away and just walk away like zombies. You can't have it both ways either the battle really keeps on going as you say or the sucker just ends like that.
The flags are as much about what will happen 5 minutes, an hour and a day after the game ends... .. Sorry but it isn't (it's a finite game that ends when it does) or you wouldn't be risking your "real" mens lives for that stupid clump of trees sitting in the open that usually serves no tactical purpose what so ever (not in designed scenarios of course!)
General Patton couldn't play CM against you Palantir. :rolleyes: Sure he could, but he would never have the HONOR :salute: of playing me twice if he used GAMEY tactics just to win a GAME because his ego demanded it.
He did gamey things to win. Please don't try and compare playing with pixel's with the magnitude of having to order real men to their deaths and doing whatever is required to stay alive... :flag:
You should never have an M8 Greyhound shoot at a Panther because... Been there, done that, love doing it. :devil:
How can you tell me that if I still have turns left I'm supposed to stop trying to gain control of the flags?
AH HA! Somewhere in your last post you lost the ENTIRE point of the "rushing the flag" issue MR even though you know it! The point is NOT TO CONTROL THE FLAG! :mad: And you don't have "turns" left. What you have is 1/2 a turn on the last turn (Variable endings included) with the ONLY intent to attempt to flip the flag to neutral. Re-read your own statement- In your case it seems to mean that in the last 3 seconds of this battle a HT runs up against a Panther and flips the flag! AND THAT IS GAMEY! :clap:
You guys have too many gamey rules.
No, what most of us expect is an opponent that will play the game in a gentlemanly manner at not exploiting loopholes in the system that are (here it comes) gamey. And if you don't think that this can be done in a "designed scenario" even one of your's then you are mistaken and still don't understand what the definition of "rushing the flag" is.
"Variable endings" will not stop flag rushes: it just means that a 30-40 turn game will end 4-5 turns later so the flag rush will happen 4-5 turns later. (And the point is not that it can't be done or would be hard to do, the point is that it DID happen.
What is good is that most players don't do it and realize what a flag rush is and, that it's not a very "nice" ploy to pull on your opponent.
Great thread MR lots of interest in it.
jaegertech
19 Dec 05, 19:46
Mad Russian, I believe this has been stated very simply many times, but I will attempt to reiterate.
Flag Rushing:
A flag-rush exploits knowledge of the exact moment a battle will end.
Then I ask again...why have games that end on an exact turn? Why not use variable endings and not have flag rushing be the huge issue it is now?
Good Hunting.
MR
I already only play variable ending games, though I wish the function was much deeper. What I am doing is similar to complaining about burglaries. Sure, I can protect myself by locking all my doors and windows, but doesn't it suck that I have to protect myself?
As Palantir points out, variable endings is not fool proof. It's simply done twice with the second time being an estimate.
Can a game end early? I've never seen that happen but I thought someone posted that it could.
It can but the only way I know of is by the automatic "global morale" surrender function, when one sides moral falls below 25% or less = being absolutely crushed.
Fionn :devil: pulled that off against me! :shock:
I just checked the manual and apparently a variable ending is triggered if a flag has changed hands near the end of the game. That seems to add a lot more prediction when they might occur and when one should rush. :nervous:
Ha! I dont cheat even though you all started talking about this(I didnt even know it exsisted until uall talked about it), but I will let you know that when someone DECIDES to challenge me ( I know your all scared but come on I CANT be that dangerous) , I will go straight out you and never( unless the other weasel is using it) do that exploitation thing you guys keep talking about( heck Ill prolly forget about it).
So until you weasels take up my challenge Ill continue to get pummled by the AI even when I am at advantage!!
Pray and Spray, kawaiku
It can but the only way I know of is by the automatic "global morale" surrender function, when one sides moral falls below 25% or less = being absolutely crushed.
Fionn :devil: pulled that off against me! :shock:
Dont feel too put out. He's done that to a lot of people :dead:
I dont think anything in game is gamey.
Map edges? I use the flanks, and sometimes that involves the edges depending on cover, if someone tries it on me, they will find the flank covered more often than not, so i expect it when i use the edges - if not, your in trouble :)
Often a AT team or light AT gun and single squad in good position can wreck havok on a person coming up the edge, if the attack is big your guys will die, but you trade 60 points for possibly 2-300 of theirs.
Flag rushing - everyone knows about it, so its not like its not expected, ER smoked and rushed the last round in the GoH match recently and i dont resent it at all, it was one of his options that he took. Same thing in the COG Round 1, opponent drove lone carriers into the flag areas to flip them neutral, turning a tactical/major victory into a minor for me - i dont count it gamey.
I try to counter 'it' (fixed turn games especially) by readying a killing field - even if he does flip a flag neutral, i'm counting on the fact he denied me X amount of points in the flag, but it cost him X more doing it.
Split squads? there is a negative effect to split squads as already discussed.
Crews for recon? They suck for spotting but can be used to provide a small increase in firepower in combat, they can herd prisoners, they can guard rear flags, and if they are up far enough their best use is to hide and try and spot.
Gamey? No I dont think so, they have pistols, they are soldiers, i give them orders :)
Wanna take tigers all the time? Fine by me, use your crews when i take them out with vanilla forces as recon troops? :laugh: - also fine by me :)
Anyways i dont think anything IN game is gamey, BEfore game however i think so.
Rarity should always be on, parameters should be 'fair' - this is where i think dodgy stuff happens :)
Ha! I dont cheat even though you all started talking about this(I didnt even know it exsisted until uall talked about it), but I will let you know that when someone DECIDES to challenge me ( I know your all scared but come on I CANT be that dangerous) , I will go straight out you and never( unless the other weasel is using it) do that exploitation thing you guys keep talking about( heck Ill prolly forget about it).
So until you weasels take up my challenge Ill continue to get pummled by the AI even when I am at advantage!!
Pray and Spray, kawaiku
You can do the challenges to Kawaiku :)
Mad Russian
24 Dec 05, 00:51
And if you don't think that this can be done in a "designed scenario" even one of your's then you are mistaken and still don't understand what the definition of "rushing the flag" is.
"Variable endings" will not stop flag rushes: it just means that a 30-40 turn game will end 4-5 turns later so the flag rush will happen 4-5 turns later. (And the point is not that it can't be done or would be hard to do, the point is that it DID happen.
Why would you think a scenario isn't subject to the same types of game play that QB's and Ladder Games aren't? Of course rushing the flag occurs in designed scenarios. My scenarios are no better or worse than any other designers and are governed by the same game play that every CM scenario is. :confused:
Variable ending means just that.
I have seen games end anywhere from a couple of turns early, to as many as 9 turns late. The average variable ending extension is 3. However, there is no guarantee of anything. I have just finished a 30 turn variable ending scenario that went 38 turns. (I am about to release this scenario for playtesting, so you can try it yourself.)
In my experience the average extension is 10%, with the average being broken about every third game. In other words, take a 30 turn game, 10% of that is 3, that gives you a reasonable idea that the game will end on turn 33. What makes that extremely chancey to try, is. that about one out of every three games doesn't hold to the average. So, two games out of three will end on turn 33 and the other one could end early or go to 40.
I have playtested hundreds of variable ending games. Literally hundreds. If you flag rush a variable ending scenario you take as big a chance of being shot to pieces, BEFORE the game ends, as you do guessing right when the scenario will end. It's a bit like blitzing the quarterback by jumping the snap count. It can be done but usually it results in an offsides penalty against YOU!!
I use the variable ending scenarios to give myself the extra turns I may need to legitimately take the flags from you or to flip the flag to neutral. Either way, it's a crap shoot as to when the fight is over. Which is what I think you guys are after. Some way to make it less predictable to know when to try the "rush the flag" tactic.
What I see is, that no matter what the arguements, logical or not, good - bad or indifferent, some people are going to see red when they think the flag has been rushed. Others don't see what the big deal is. No amount of arguement is going to change anyone's conviction about rushing the flag.
It seems that this is one of those politics - religion issues that is best left undebated amongst friends. We just need to, agree to disagree, and move on with more important issues.
Merry Christmas to all!! Here's to a CM Christmas!! May all your stockings and presents be stuffed with CM battles of your favorite kind to play against your favorite opponent!!
Good Hunting.
MR
What I see is, that no matter what the arguements, logical or not, good - bad or indifferent, some people are going to see red when they think the flag has been rushed. Others don't see what the big deal is. No amount of arguement is going to change anyone's conviction about rushing the flag. Most likely. Though it seems to me that trying to compare suicide end-game rushes to actions in sporting events is really stretching it, and is nothing more than a justification for questionable game behavior. Kerry's point on variable endings, and I agree with him, is that if the game doesn't end on the last regulation turn you simply scrounge up some more stuff and throw it at him again in 4 or 5 turns and the chances of getting it right are pretty high.
Maybe the best move is to clear the issue with your opponent before starting the game " I like to do suicide last minute rushes. Is that OK with you?" and see what response you get. :)
Mad Russian
24 Dec 05, 21:41
Maybe the best move is to clear the issue with your opponent before starting the game " I like to do suicide last minute rushes. Is that OK with you?" and see what response you get. :)
Could be. I've never played anybody yet that didn't use them I guess. I never gave it any thought until I saw the tremendous dislike for the tactic here.
There are so many real life things that soldiers can do that aren't modeled in CM that I figure anything I've seen the game allow so far is far less gamey that what real life soldiers are capable of I never really objected to it.
To each his own. I would think if it bothers you to the same extent that it does some of the other posters here that YOU should check the guys you are gaming against.
Sorry my choice of examples didn't meet with your approval. I'll check on that next time before I use sports analogies too.
Good Hunting.
MR
To each his own. I would think if it bothers you to the same extent that it does some of the other posters here that YOU should check the guys you are gaming against. It's probably a good idea if both sides check, unless we assume rushing the flag is the default. :)
Sorry my choice of examples didn't meet with your approval. I'll check on that next time before I use sports analogies too. Don't take it personally MR. The arguments were getting confusing. On one hand we have sports as a justifier and on the other RL soldiers being gamier than CM. Personally I never considered any method of staying alive in RL combat to be gamey. And on that note, I don't think RL troops would throw themselves at a clump of terrain in obvious suicide just so say they made it that far for 60 seconds.
In any case, enjoy your flag rushes and merry christmas. :)
You can do the challenges to Kawaiku :)
I just dont know how thats why Im waiting for people to challenge me.
Mad Russian
25 Dec 05, 09:42
I just dont know how thats why Im waiting for people to challenge me.
I don't know how to challenge people on this site since I am new here myself. I have seen you ask repeatedly with only vague references to the fact that you can so let me tell you how you can challenge people that will respond.
Go to:
http://the-proving-grounds.com
Login. You will be at the general forum page. Leave a challenge there and then go to the opponents wanted section, it's on the heading above the forum, and put your challenge in there.
This won't get you ladder games. It will get you PBEM opponents before the ink is dry.
Good Hunting.
MR
Mad Russian
25 Dec 05, 09:52
It's probably a good idea if both sides check, unless we assume rushing the flag is the default. :)
Don't take it personally MR. The arguments were getting confusing. On one hand we have sports as a justifier and on the other RL soldiers being gamier than CM. Personally I never considered any method of staying alive in RL combat to be gamey. And on that note, I don't think RL troops would throw themselves at a clump of terrain in obvious suicide just so say they made it that far for 60 seconds.
In any case, enjoy your flag rushes and merry christmas. :)
From the emotion level that FR causes here, I would think those that it bothers should consider it the default, and YOU should check to see if those you play use it.
The confusing arguments are all a way to get you to see that there is more than one side of this issue. As I said before though, I'm not sure anybody is budging from their view. Sports wasn't being used as a justifier. There are no justifiers. Just examples of why I don't agree with your point of view.
The term, "gamey", is yours, not mine. I never use it anywhere but in conversations concerning CM.
Tell you what, read the citations for Medal of Honor, Knight's Cross, Victoria Cross or Hero of the Soviet Union winners, before you start tellling me what real life soldiers, will, or won't do in combat, that wouild be considered "gamey" in CM. I make scenarios from those actions and am constantly amazed at what they did in real life!
None of that matters. This is a dead issue for me. I don't have time to debate an issue that isn't moving. I'll play like I play and you'll play like you'll play. The discussion has run it's course with both sides still sitting right where when we started. I do think the discussion is getting a little too personal as well, so, for me at least, it's time to move on. We've all said everything there is to say about it anyway.
Merry Christmas.
MR
I dont think anything in game is gamey.
...snip...
Rarity should always be on, parameters should be 'fair' - this is where i think dodgy stuff happens :)
I agree with Tripps :)
The line is drawn! :cheeky:
Another interesting discussion gentlemen on a topic that has various views, plus it was kept light & lively and everyone is still alive! :laugh:
Nicely done!! :thumup:
Next topic is...?
Are we ending this topic ?
How about how do you take a hill that is heavily fortified and vehicles cant penetrate! And its called Mt. Sorubachi !!
Tactical nukes followed by a helicopter drop in anti-contamination suits. :thumup:
Armed with lazer guns and yoda.
...if anything goes...attack at night with Vampire Special Forces :)
British Tommy
26 Dec 05, 10:51
...if anything goes...attack at night with Vampire Special Forces :)
Ah, but the enemy counter this by having silver bullets! :laugh:
Ah, but the enemy counter this by having silver bullets! :laugh: I think that would be used against a werewolf commando raid. Though they could counter with garlic wreaths on their helmets. :shock:
And crosses on their uniforms. If humans are defending then the Van Helsing para regiment would be best suited for the more difficult assignments.
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