Multi- Victory Flags?

[Palantir]

Hey Mad Russian,

Please send me the name of a scenario in which I can't tell as a player how many flags are at the VF location. I suspect the number is over 6.

I tried the "multipile flags" per spot concept and could easily tell when there were more than one flag per spot with 5 being a mighty fat flag pole.

I just checked out a few of yours and as a "player" could count at least 5 in one spot. Then went into the editor to confirm how many were there. (one of the KC I think)

Also- what is the point in having a 2000 pt VF location besides to balance out a scenario for freindly points loss=holding a fat flag?

Is THAT location that tactically important to say the "hill/road" next to it?

If you have only one flag location in a game and it's a multiflag location seems the only point is to use it for point balance effect- unit loss:location.

You have say only a few surviving units vs a lot of enemy so you need the fat flag to counter all your losses.

Anyway- you know the concept behind using them so fill me in! ;)

[Mad Russian]

?? You can always tell how many flags are at a location.

You can't always tell how much they are worth.

One scenario that comes to mind is a breakout. Either you get that route opened or you die in here. That part of the world then becomes very pricey. Taking a bridge, holding a position that will hold up an entire offensive for as long as it holds.

That's right. Multiple flags at a location is only for point balance.

But tell me this...there are four large flags at the bridge. What are they worth?

100-300-900-1000-1200-2000?

Those three large flags could be worth from 100 to 2,000 points. Using a dynamic flag and 3 decoys I can assign a value of from 100 all the way through 2,000. Or I could use 4 static flags and have them worth 1200. There would really be no reason to use 4 to represent 1200 when you can get a dynamic flag and 1 decoy ( you can choose between 2,3 or 4 dynamic flags to put on the map) for the same amount of value with less designer time putting it all together.

Another very big reason for using dynamic flags as often as you can, is to make your work much less predictable. The more little surprises you can add to a scenario the better gamers will like it. Make it as tough as you like. The tougher the better. BUT make sure you have at least beat it yourself before turning your monster loose on the world.

One thing to make clear is that you cannot have static and dynamic flags on the map at the same time. It's either the small flags - 100 points and large flags - 300 points for static flags or 1 real flag and up to 3 decoys worth from 100 - 2,000 points.

Hope this helps.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

Thanks for the info! :)

[Lurker]

Gentlemen! Pardon my intrusion on your design exchange but I have a pertinent question regarding VLs of unknown importance (is it 100 or 2000?). Isn't having widely ranged values that are generally unknown counter to RL battles? For instance, whether it's a ME or attack/defend, wouldn't the commanders be briefed ahead of time as to the relative importance of the geographical areas they've been assigned to take and hold, so that if certain areas are vital both sides, or at least one side, would know this? It seems that random values that neither side knows of would be unrealistic.

Just curious. :)

[Mad Russian]

Gentlemen! Pardon my intrusion on your design exchange but I have a pertinent question regarding VLs of unknown importance (is it 100 or 2000?). Isn't having widely ranged values that are generally unknown counter to RL battles? For instance, whether it's a ME or attack/defend, wouldn't the commanders be briefed ahead of time as to the relative importance of the geographical areas they've been assigned to take and hold, so that if certain areas are vital both sides, or at least one side, would know this? It seems that random values that neither side knows of would be unrealistic.

Just curious. :)

Of course you would be briefed.

Here is a possible briefing I would give you for a 2000 point objective.

Allied: "You have to hold that intersection. You are the last defense 9th Army has. If the Germans breakthrough here there is nobody else left to stop them."

German: "Breakthrough this last American defense and we are finally in the open and can advance to Dinant."

You see that you have been given an assignment of the utmost importance for both commanders. Yet, I didn't tell you that the two large flags sitting on the intersection weren't worth only 300 points apiece. One of these is a decoy, the other is worth 2000 points. The German will know that only one of them is worth points but has no idea how many.

When a RL commander is briefed his superior doesn't tell him, "Be sure to take this objective Jim, it's worth 2000 points."

You see. This forces the gamer to actually have some things unknown to him like in RL. No commander knows what is going on "upstairs".

Why is there no other American unit available to stop the Germans if we don't?

Why is this the only place in the Ardennes that we are breaking through when we attacked along 3 axis?

You don't know, and in reality, you don't need to know. Your job is to follow your orders. I made it very plain that your assignment here is of the utmost importance.

Those flags are worth "rushing" too. Any set of orders that you get that tells you things hang in the balance are.

But when does a commander have the latitude to disregard certain things?

Let's take a look at what victory means in CM.

In general terms, victory at the tactical level affects only the local situation. We take that hill and the Germans stop firing their artillery at US. So if you didn't manage to take the entire hill, all of the objectives, then that's partially okay. We'll attack the rest of the hill tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, if need be.

But there are times when a tacitical unit will find itself at the front of the war. What is known as the sharp end. As an example of this I have a Battle of the Bulge scenario called strangely enough, "HSG B The Sharp End". This depicts the battle with the 2nd Panzer Division and the British 29th Armored Brigade. The Germans were waiting on fuel to continue their advance. XXX Corps from 21st Army Group was trying to establish a defense line in front of the German division. These two units are at the contact point for the two sides. Some 20 tanks and some infantry all told. This engagement will be VERY important no matter who wins it.

Do you think the objectives in this fight might be worth more than 2 small 100 point flags?

For me, the value of the flag in a battle is not an arbitrary thing. Just how important is this situation overall? What value is that objective to the war effort?

Another thing that is often overlooked in scenario design is the German bonus. It can be either plus or minus.

Let's go back to the Americans needing to hold the intersection at all costs...

Is it safe to assume that the Americans are going to take very heavy casualties defending given that their orders bordered on almost being "to the last man"? I would think if you didnt' fight as hard as you can as an officer when you get back you don't work for us anymore. You're fired. Relieved of command. In this case should you be penalized with the normal scoring system of CM? I don't think so and if my total force size is 1000 I may give you a 600 point bonus. In other words I'm considering right up front that you are in a situation that you will potentially lose 60% of what you have. AND as your commander that is acceptable to me.

Once again, is the briefing going to say,"Jim I've given you a 60% bonus so don't worry about losing some guys." Of course not. That's not how officers get their assignments. He willl be told "Hold right here Jim. The Germans go no farther than this village. We're relying on you." At which point Good Ole Jim would repsond, "You can count on us sir! We won't let you down!"

Now the fight is on! If you allow normal CM scoring in this situation with static CM flags the Americans may hold the position and still lose on points. That's not right. In this situation the importantance is not in killing enemy units but getting this little part of the world to speak our language. Under these circumstances you need to change the normal CM scoring. That flag may not be worth 600 points but a 1000. I may also have a bonus of 600 points. I wouldn't normally use both of these in the same scenairo. Why not just make the flag worth 1600 points and if the American holds it he automatically wins no matter what his losses were? Or the German automatically loses no matter how much damage he did?

The key to everything is PLAYTEST!!!!!!!

YOU the designer need to know how your scenario plays BEFORE you put it out there for the rest of the world to play. After a couple of run throughs you will see whether the scenario scores like it should or not.

Hope this helps.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Lurker]

Yes it helps. Thanks for the clarification.

What I was considering was a situation where a flag is worth 2000 points (as you mentioned) and one worth 300 points. A commander is briefed to take both objectives but he doesn't know which is worth more. In other words his superiors didn't tell him which objective is the more vital. During the battle he realizes he will only be able to take one and hold on - which is obviously better than none. So he chooses one and manages to seize it and hold on. However, this one is only worth 300 points and so he fails to take the more important of the two. If both sides aren't briefed as to which VL is more important then isn't that a failing of the briefing? I can see the up-line commander thinking to himself "damn, I knew I should have told him objective X is far more important htan objective Y".
That was my concern.

[Mad Russian]

Yes it helps. Thanks for the clarification.

What I was considering was a situation where a flag is worth 2000 points (as you mentioned) and one worth 300 points. A commander is briefed to take both objectives but he doesn't know which is worth more. In other words his superiors didn't tell him which objective is the more vital. During the battle he realizes he will only be able to take one and hold on - which is obviously better than none. So he chooses one and manages to seize it and hold on. However, this one is only worth 300 points and so he fails to take the more important of the two. If both sides aren't briefed as to which VL is more important then isn't that a failing of the briefing? I can see the up-line commander thinking to himself "damn, I knew I should have told him objective X is far more important htan objective Y".
That was my concern.

There are alot of bad breifings out there. Some of them are mine. I try very hard to put into my breifings what I would want to know in RL.

Good Hunting.

MR