Questions about operational rules

[Artur]

DD,

There are still a lot of questions regarding operational rules. Please answer them ASAP because we have to make at least a schetch of the operational plan before defining the recon deployment.

1. You told it will be a 12 hours campaign. You told the battles will be 20 turn battles. How many op turns will the campaign last? 6? (6X2hours(24 turns)) or 12 as written in the rules draft? (To me the 6 turn version seems more manageable but I will be happy with either)

2. What will the visibility be during the campaign?

3. How many supply areas shall we have? Where? Can they be moved?

4. The Mi24s can carry infantry. Is it possible to transport pure leg units from one place to another if the Helos and the infantry start the operational turn in one place?

5. Do streams/rivers hinder operational movement?

6. Can artillery used as off board artillery? How many ammo will they get? (Especially smoke ammo.)

7. Can bulldozers at least build trenches? (If not I wish to convert some to eng squad+BTR)

More to follow....

Artur.

[Artur]

Comrades,

Post your questions about operational rules here. I cannot do it alone.

I attachthed rules draft I have.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

1. You told it will be a 12 hours campaign. You told the battles will be 20 turn battles. How many op turns will the campaign last? 6? (6X2hours(24 turns)) or 12 as written in the rules draft? (To me the 6 turn version seems more manageable but I will be happy with either)12 OP Turns (1 hour each). Tactical Battles 20 turns (3 minutes each).

2. What will the visibility be during the campaign?Clear daylight (30-50 hexes).

3. How many supply areas shall we have? Where? Can they be moved?3 and NO they cannot be moved. You place them in the same start areas as you Main force start restrictions.

4. The Mi24s can carry infantry. Is it possible to transport pure leg units from one place to another if the Helos and the infantry start the operational turn in one place?Yes. BUT if they fly within range of enemy SAM's, passengers will suffer the same fate as the helo's in any abstracted battles.

5. Do streams/rivers hinder operational movement?No. We do not have bridging type units in this game this time around.

6. Can artillery used as off board artillery? How many ammo will they get? (Especially smoke ammo.)It depends how far from the fighting they are. Off-board units will be edited to replicate their On-board equivalent to include the same ammo loads.

7. Can bulldozers at least build trenches? (If not I wish to convert some to eng squad+BTR)Yes, they are considered an engineer unit for most purposes.

[Artur]

Yes. BUT if they fly within range of enemy SAM's, passengers will suffer the same fate as the helo's in any abstracted battles.



Is there a difference regiding this between planes and helos? Helos travel at the tip of the trees, and unless they fly right over units they cannit be shot at IMHO.

Can I tell orders, that if they are shot at they return a little and put the carried unit off at the next hex backwards?

Yes I thought about pure leg units. (RPG-7s , inf ATGMS, scouts).

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Is there a difference regiding this between planes and helos? Helos travel at the tip of the trees, and unless they fly right over units they cannit be shot at IMHO.Helo's will have had to have entered an enemy SAM occupied hex to be engaged while aircraft (fixed wing) just need to come within engagement range.

Can I tell orders, that if they are shot at they return a little and put the carried unit off at the next hex backwards?Yes, add these additional instructions when posting orders. The orders do not need to be elaborate, just a sentence or two on an alternate plan. :D

[Artur]

I have a question about the size of the units deployable in one hex. You told that would be a battaion with support units. My problem is, that NATO has way stronger battalions than WP doees. It's companies are 1,5X the size of the WP companies.

Some other criteria would be more welcome like: number of units < 150 or 200
Number of platoons is no good since NATO platoons ae way stronger than WP ones.
That is still cca a battalion but it is much more fair.

Your opinion?

[Double Deuce]

I have a question about the size of the units deployable in one hex. You told that would be a battaion with support units. My problem is, that NATO has way stronger battalions than WP doees. It's companies are 1,5X the size of the WP companies. I'd rather not get into trying to track counts of individual units in a hex. If the WP reorganizes their units by adding an extra Plt to a Co and or a Co to a Bn that would probably be OK. Just remember that it'll be pretty crowded in those 2km hexes during any tactical battles and easy targets for initial Artillery volleys or even GS artillery missions targeting a specific hex/location.

[Artur]

I'd rather not get into trying to track counts of individual units in a hex. If the WP reorganizes their units by adding an extra Plt to a Co and or a Co to a Bn that would probably be OK. Just remember that it'll be pretty crowded in those 2km hexes during any tactical battles and easy targets for initial Artillery volleys or even GS artillery missions targeting a specific hex/location.


One hex is at least 40X40 SPMBT hexes. I ban deploy 5-6 WP companies on it without problem.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

One hex is at least 40X40 SPMBT hexes. I ban deploy 5-6 WP companies on it without problem.

Artur.True but think about 2-3 batteries of 155mm coming down on that 40x40 hex are for several rounds.

[Artur]

I can take that risk If I may. You can imagine that we shall not keep such a concentration in one place for several OP turns...

IMHO 6 WP and 4 NATO companies should be the limit more or less.

Artur.

[Artur]

What are the artillery ranges in hexes?

Artur.

[Artur]

What are the ADA ranges in hexes?

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

See Post #1 of this thread Artillery and Air Defense Ranges (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31537) .

[Artur]

Let's look at the following situation.

We have 3 squads of recon inf (scouts, or RPG-7) in an operational hex. An enemy battalion enters the hex.What will happen?
a. Abstracted results.
b. A battle in which the scouts can be hunted down but also can spot units if they are led better.

(IMHO the option b is the fair one.)

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Let's look at the following situation.

We have 3 squads of recon inf (scouts, or RPG-7) in an operational hex. An enemy battalion enters the hex.What will happen?
a. Abstracted results.
b. A battle in which the scouts can be hunted down but also can spot units if they are led better. In all likelyhood it WOULD be played out BUT if there are other units in adjacent hexes they may be added into the actual tactical battle depending on their orders and of course my own whims. :D I WILL try to avoid combining nearby units IF it would drag another commander into the battle and make it multiplayer. I am all for trying to let everyone have some play time even if it sacrifices the realism to some degree. It would limit flanking and some maneuvering BUT would allow players to fight some battles and see how they do. This would also help simulate a weak link or commander mistake. In all it keeps more people involved in the "FUN" part.

The primary battles/situations that would be abstracted would be the ADA vs Aircraft stuff.

[Artur]

In all likelyhood it WOULD be played out BUT if there are other units in adjacent hexes they may be added into the actual tactical battle depending on their orders and of course my own whims. :D I WILL try to avoid combining nearby units IF it would drag another commander into the battle and make it multiplayer. I am all for trying to let everyone have some play time even if it sacrifices the realism to some degree. It would limit flanking and some maneuvering BUT would allow players to fight some battles and see how they do. This would also help simulate a weak link or commander mistake. In all it keeps more people involved in the "FUN" part.


That mayl affect our operarational plan a GREAT deal. So I repeat. If we have 2-4 scout squads in a hex a battle will be created -even with units from neighbouring hexes, I don't care. The important thing is to have a battle and keep enemy units chasing us instead of advancing and of course giving us a chance to spot, call arty, helos and planes if necessary. Do you confirm?


The primary battles/situations that would be abstracted would be the ADA vs Aircraft stuff.

I saw that HAWK battaery has a range of 20 hexes and our SA4 has a range of 25 hexes. Does that mean the first pair of planes that enters the area will immediately be engaged?

Artur.

[Artur]

DD,

Have you decided about gining our Mi24 the Sthurm ATGMs or not?

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

That mayl affect our operarational plan a GREAT deal. So I repeat. If we have 2-4 scout squads in a hex a battle will be created -even with units from neighbouring hexes, I don't care. The important thing is to have a battle and keep enemy units chasing us instead of advancing and of course giving us a chance to spot, call arty, helos and planes if necessary. Do you confirm?Well there shouldn't be such a small unit in a hex alone except through attrition BUT yes a battle would be created. Remember though that arty, air, etc would have to be assigned at the beginning so it can be added to the scenario/tactical battle.

I saw that HAWK battaery has a range of 20 hexes and our SA4 has a range of 25 hexes. Does that mean the first pair of planes that enters the area will immediately be engaged?Probably, there will be some leeway for engaging. The senior commander would make the call on when to engage. I will provide him intel and he will set engagment criteria. He could say engage all enemy air within x # of hexes of certain units or as the cross a certain hex row, etc. Based on that and the aircraft's path I will abstract the engagament. The results of these will not be revealed util AFTER the tactical battles have been set up so if a ground commander is relying on air support for his men he must commit to battle before he knows the planes will be there when he needs them. :devious:

[Double Deuce]

Have you decided about gining our Mi24 the Shturm ATGMs or not?I have changed the OOB in the Air and Air Defense thread.

[Artur]

Well there shouldn't be such a small unit in a hex alone except through attrition BUT yes a battle would be created. Remember though that arty, air, etc would have to be assigned at the beginning so it can be added to the scenario/tactical battle.


Well, there will be if you let us, and not without a reason :devious: .



Probably, there will be some leeway for engaging. The senior commander would make the call on when to engage. I will provide him intel and he will set engagment criteria. He could say engage all enemy air within x # of hexes of certain units or as the cross a certain hex row, etc. Based on that and the aircraft's path I will abstract the engagament. The results of these will not be revealed util AFTER the tactical battles have been set up so if a ground commander is relying on air support for his men he must commit to battle before he knows the planes will be there when he needs them. :devious:

The player will see that the panes did not arrive if he looks at the unit list and does not see the planes he was promised to have. I suggest to clarify the ADA air rules more in detail.
It is no point starting this campaign before the rules are not clear IMHO.

Artur.

[Artur]

I have chabnged the OOB in the Air and Air Defense thread.

Thank you.

Artur.

[Artur]

Are the two objective hex clusters identical in "value" ?

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Are the two objective hex clusters identical in "value" ?Yes, they are.

[Artur]

DD,

I have checked ADA ranges recently. How does it come that the Gepards have a range of 4000 and they can shoot at range of 2 hexes while our (ZSU-23)Sylkas have a range of 3000 and they have a range of 1 :( . That means we have to risk the Sylkas in SPMBT battles while the Gepards can be abstracted. It is just 25% differrence in range!!!!

Please advise.

Artur.

[Artur]

Can anti-ADA missions be assigned to planes?

Could we abstract the effect of 1 range SPAAs?

Artur.

[jadpanther]

I noticed in this thread that we have 3 locations for our supplies that cannot be moved. How are we to reload our frontline units if we cannot move the ammo forward.......or is it assumed that we are fully reloaded after every fight. It seems that we should be able to carry some extra box ammo for our tactical assets?

[Artur]

I noticed in this thread that we have 3 locations for our supplies that cannot be moved. How are we to reload our frontline units if we cannot move the ammo forward.......or is it assumed that we are fully reloaded after every fight. It seems that we should be able to carry some extra box ammo for our tactical assets?

As long as a unit has a free patt to one of the supply depots, it is considered IN supply and gets all ammo rations. If it is encircled, it gets nly half of the ammo rations.

DD, when out of supply the BMPs with 5 ATGMS get 2 or 3 rockets?
Please answer the important questions above about ADA and in the recon concept thread.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

DD,

I have checked ADA ranges recently. How does it come that the Gepards have a range of 4000 and they can shoot at range of 2 hexes while our (ZSU-23)Sylkas have a range of 3000 and they have a range of 1 :( . That means we have to risk the Sylkas in SPMBT battles while the Gepards can be abstracted. It is just 25% differrence in range!!!!

Please advise.

Artur.I changed the range to 2 hexes.

Range really has nothing to do with units being involved in abstracted engagements. IF a hex is included in a Tactical Battle ALL units in those hexes are involved. If Aircraft fly into range of an ADA unit on the way to another location these particular engagements will be abstracted and have no bearing on the ground Tactical Battles Unless the ADA units are engaged by the aircraft and destroyed.

Also remember that Tactical Battles will almost always involve multiple hexes on the Operational Map.

[Double Deuce]

Can anti-ADA missions be assigned to planes?Yes, they can BUT they would be most effective in assigning them to a Tactical Battle and have the commander use them to target ADA assets.

[Double Deuce]

DD, when out of supply the BMPs with 5 ATGMS get 2 or 3 rockets?
Please answer the important questions above about ADA and in the recon concept thread.They may have a mix, some with 3 and some with 2. I will try to balance them out whenever there is an odd #.

[Artur]

Thank you for the update. The Air rules have to be defined more precisely.

Will post some suggestions next week.

Artur.