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View Full Version : Some suggestions for a new TOAW


r.bragg
28 Nov 05, 06:43
(I posted this memo in the general section but someone suggest to move it here;
sorry if you have read yet)


Hello guys !

I’m a newcomer in this forum

At first, sorry for my poor English

I have played TOAW – CW since 2000, and I’d like to make some personal consideration on the general approach for a future “TOAW clone ++” (if someone could develop it)
(Personally, I have little hopes about the new Matrix version)

TOAW – CW was without any doubt my best wargame ever, but (because perfection does not exist) I unfortunately experienced a lot of unrealistic effects in the TOAW combat and scenario results.

I divided my consideration between the tactical, operational and strategic levels.

Tactical level

I think that the current engine / database must be re-defined with a focus on :

- implications of scenario scale on combat
we have to consider, for example, that a regimental attack on a 5 km hex scale usually does not involve the whole extension of the front, i.e. do not involve the whole front of the defending unit; that principle should be applied to every hex scale / unit involved : defending units usually cover the front (but in different ways), whereas attacking units are usually concentrated on breakthrough points (with different tactics). So, a 10-5 unit attacking vs. a 10-5 defending unit could not be resolved by a pure attacking vs. defending factor confrontation. How can we model it into the engine ? perhaps using for each unit an “attack / defend tactical mode” : frontal attack, echeloned attack, ... linear defence, defence in depth, ... , used as a multiplier / de-multiplier of the involved forces.

- implications of units / subunits’ organisation structure (TO&E) on combat
we should also consider in some way the split (inside each unit) between active, fire support, general support, reserve echelons (that’s a bigger problem with brigade / divisional and upper unit scale), considering in attack / defence phases only the echelons naturally involved. Furthermore, we should also take into account the sub-units / weapons’ coordination / communication capabilities and generally speaking the command & control chain (should it be simulated only by proficiency ?). Perhaps some specific “equipment” could be used to manage and improve C3I capabilities, period by period. A WW2 US I.D. had different approach to the use of its subunits and to fire support and weapons’ coordination from that of a German I.D. or a Russian Rifle D. (the same could be applied to every historical period and organisation). If the simplified Attack (AP / AT) / defence factor is only a rough sum up of the weapons listed, we aim not to a TO&E but only a Table of Equipment. In fact, I think that TOAW at present can’t simulate correctly the real difference between for ex. a modern balanced force (i.e. an armoured brigade) and the WW2 equivalent, only by listing the different equipment.

The implication of our choices in terms of scale and units / sub-units structure must be considered also from the system’s database point of view. Could anyone really believe that a WW2 German squad with a MG34/42 (LMG) is equivalent to a British squad with Bren (LMG) ? Not only German MGs was different and far superior but tactics were different : German squad was created “around” the MG and fought around the MG (one of the reason of the proficiency differences in WW2 infantries). So I think that national identity must be ascribed also to infantry and infantry support units, not only to the other weapons (arty, tanks, aircraft and so on). Another ex. : in terms of firepower (so in terms of attack factor) WW1 German / British / French / Russian squads were very different, not only for having a different number of men / weapons (from 8 to 15). Could we simulate that using only generally designed Light Rifle / Rifle Squads ? Above all, I think that the whole balance between attack / defence factor of Infantry, Guns, Tanks and so on must be re-defined, considering scale / time scale. Perhaps we must think (in the database) in terms of Ammo equivalents, Rate of Fire, CEP, Range effectiveness (!), number of missions in a time unit, and so on and have a conversion routine of all these values into combat factors, on the basis of scale / time scale.

At tactical level I also suggest a very different approach to all other “battlefield support” issues : prepared defence (from dig-in to fortifications : they requires time and materials in different way, not only “turns”), constructions and destructions (of bridge / road / railways / airfields / ports and so on : they required specialised abilities and materials, not only a “local transit”), logistics (how to simulate better the logistic chain and its key elements : remember that WW1 most after-breakthrough failures were caused by logistics failures), recon (human and electronic : SIGINT / ELINT / EW / recon hardware could contribute to determine recon capability, period by period, area by area), leadership (a very subjective matter), casualty treatments (could WW1 WIA have the same probability / time schedule in returning to combat as in Desert Storm ?, so, in terms of TOAW, to return to the pool), and so on.

At tactical level I also suggest a local management of shock effects (based on the concentration level of key assets and on the attack vs. defence mode chosen)

At last, I would spend some words on turns : I think that the ideal choice could be a sequence like : turn 1 / round 1 : player one order phase, player two order phase, simultaneous combat resolution; turn 1 / round 2 : the same till last round in the each turn, with a standard length (in terms of time) of each turn, in order to have correct figures for movement, combat time (and related effects), fatigue, supply consumption etc. A randomized length of each round impulse is unrealistic in complex scenarios : why the opportunity to exploit a breakthrough (within a given turn) in Ukraine should be influenced by the randomized round length of another attack near Leningrad ?


Operational level

At the Operational level, I think that we might consider a complete different approach in the command chain and in the OoB management.

At first I think about the possibility to have a flexible command chain, with different level (at least 4 or 5, for ex. Army, Corps, Div, Rgt or Bde, sub-units), managed by a template-like tool, with definition at each level of the TO&E of elementary units and a lot of parameters (i.e. morale, proficiency, readiness, supply level, supply efficiency, C3I capability, leaderships, tactical and operational mode, and so on), with top-down effects.

We also need the possibility to change the assignment of sub-units (dynamically) and to define / change the priority level for a lot of parameters (replacements – manpower and equipment – supply, etc.)

Finally, I dream about re-defining dynamically the TO&E of each sub-units, in order to allow (in complex / long scenarios) the equipment / organisational changes as needed. Obviously, to be realistic, a change in TO&E should require a “unit withdraw”, in a sequence like : unit withdraw, TO&E change, new manpower / equipment assignment (as available), training, unit combat ready – with a time schedule related to unit dimension (bn or div ?), time scale, historical period (more complex equipment, more time), in a sort of “Force TO&E / Replacements / Training module”


Strategic level

At the Strategic level we can imagine a lot of new “modules”.

Above all a “Economy / Resources / Production module” (with all the opportunity to change economy / resource / production strategies), to choose priorities in terms of R&D and production, to manage resources, to balance manpower between armed forces (manpower pool to train) war and civil industries, to manage in detail some key factors (as for ex. oil, energy, key industrial sectors, critical raw materials, food, etc.), and after all having continuing loops between population morale, economy / production options, war production, resources availability, etc., usable to calculate / determine victory points levels, critical situation, political events and so on.

Then a “Logistic module” : to manage all logistics : supply, maintenance, medical support, railways, air / naval transportation, civil labour, POWs (POWs require resources) etc..

Then a Strategic Combat Environment : to simulate use / effects of strategic off theatre weapons on production / logistics : i.e. air strategic environment (bombers, missions, targets, fighters, missiles, C3I networks and so on), naval strategic environment (naval blockade, convoys, submarine, ASW, surface intruders, naval patrols, and so on).

So a lot of the events now managed by the Event Ed. could be managed by a direct use of properly designed functions : for ex. : units withdrawal / activation (“Force TO&E / Replacements / Training module”), recon (on the basis of the local deployment of different tactical / strategic recon / C3I assets), transportation (railways, road, sea and air – “Logistic module”), Replacements (“Production modules”).

I’m dreaming … have a nice day

Robert (Milano – Italy)

macgregr
28 Nov 05, 17:41
I'm in agreement with everything you said. Good job! If they facilitate the making of user created weapons and sub-units, the constant playtesting should produce some highly accurate models.

r.bragg
05 Dec 05, 07:27
OLD TOAW NEEDS A RE-BALANCE IN MOVEMENT AND COMBAT FACTORS


TOAW is above all an operational simulation system. I think that in the old TOAW it's necessary to re-balance the combat - movement routines, in order to make them more realistic.

Let's start using as example a classical scenario : Drang nach Osten, by Daniel Mc Bride, on the Barbarossa Operation : 10 km per hex - half week turns - units at Bn - Rgt level (for Germans) and Rgt - Div level (for Russians).


1) MOVEMENT VALUES

We know (historically) that a standard I.R. (infantry regiment – foot movement) could move (for some days and without rest) for an average of 20 km per day = 2 hex per day - i.e. on a half week scale : 7 hexes).

On the contrary a standard 1941 Pz.R (panzer regiment – mech movement) could move for an average of 80-100 km per day (also fighting : in the first days of Barbarossa Pz.Gruppe 1, 2 and 3 had even a 60 miles per day performance) = 8-10 hexes x 3,5 = 28-35 hexes in a half week turn.

The ratio between infantry and armour is 1 : 4 – 1 : 5; that's the reason for the deep penetration of German tanks and above all for the gaps between armour and infantry in june / july 1941 that so worried OKH and Hitler.

What happen in TOAW ?

A standard I.R. (having only horse-teams as transport) has a move factor (on road) of 15 hexes : too much !!!

A standard Pz.R. (having only mech weapons) has a move factor (on road) of 27 hexes (the minimum – it’s impossible to ask for a extra-performance).

The ratio between infantry and armour is 1 : 1,8; that's why in the TOAW scenarios there are less problems in managing the gaps between infantry and armours during deep penetrations. Furthermore, we could have some troubles in exploiting the breakthrough with the speed as historically happened, because of the loss of movement factors that a armour formation suffers also with inconsistent enemy units.

There’s something wrong in the space / time routines : space and time are the pillars of operational art of war ! . In 10km or 15 km / hex scales, there is less room for outmanoeuvring enemies than in reality : a regimental unit can cover a 10 km / hex : in reality there will be sufficient gaps for infiltration and breakthrough. We need important adjustment in this areas or the possibility to create monster scenarios with smaller scale (1 - 5 km, 1 day turns - but unplayable).


2) COMBAT VALUES

I start again with some consideration on combat values, in relation with space / time scale.

The present TOAW routines for calculating the combat factors, at equipment level and at unit level (starting from the equipment list), set up mainly on rate of fire (RoF), as abstracted measure of the equipment capability to combat, conjugate with other measures as HE ammo weight, armour penetration and so on.

I think that RoF is not – if taken abstractly – a correct measure. Troops with a 10 rounds/min rifle can’t fire indefinitely. We need to create a time-frame for evaluating each weapon systems ability to make fire and in this time-frame we have to consider ready ammos. I suggest for ex. ONE HOUR (the time in which normally troops consume the ready ammos and take fatigue), but the time-frame could be different for each period (in WW1, in WW2, in modern environment and so on).

Furthermore, we need to consider an average engagement environment (in terms of space) : for ex. : 400 to 800 meters for infantry fight (in plain terrain), 400 to 2,000 for armour combat; this space environment could be discriminate in each case what weapons are involved.

What happens if we analyse the combat factors with this approach ?

Let's start analysing AP factor and a typical German I.R, IN A STANDARD CONFIGURATION (as designed within the DNO scenario), reinforced in a second configuration (for verifying the balance) with arty from divisional level.

Furthermore we can consider two hypothesis :

a) the regiment, on a linear defence mode, attacked on whole frontage
b) the regiment, on a linear defence mode, attacked on a battalion frontage (1/3).


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a) Defence on the whole front hold (ex : 10 km) in a linear difense
One hour combat max AP ammo (HE equivalent weight)

STD equipment units of RoF 1 h round total
# issue sustained combat HE equiv. HE equiv.
(rounds) per min. (kg) (kg)

Heavy Squad 100
- 9 x Kar 98 k 900 100 10 100 0,0128 1.152
- 1 x MG 34 100 3.400 600 3.400 0,0128 4.352
Medium MG 24 3.400 600 3.400 0,0128 1.044
Heavy MG 37 6.400 800 6.400 0,0128 3.031
5 cm GrW 27 150 15 150 0,900 3.645
8 cm GrW 18 150 12 150 3,500 9.450
3,7cm PaK 21 200 12 200 0,680 2.856
7,5 cm leIG 6 200 12 200 5,500 6.600
15 cm sIG 2 150 6 150 38,000 11.400
2 cm Flak 5 2.000 200 2.000 0,120 1.200

apart from other minor weapon's systems. 44.731

THIS "HE EQUIVALENT" match with the unit AP factor in the game of : 10

Let’s add arty

10,5cm leFH 12 125 6 125 14,800 22.200
15 cm sFH 4 75 4 75 43,500 13.050

79.981

THIS "HE EQUIVALENT" match with the unit AP factor in the game of : 13
BUT MUST BE OF 16


b) Defence on a battallion front (ex : 3 km), against a breakthrough attempt
One hour combat max AP ammo (HE equivalent weight)

STD equipment units of RoF 1 h round total
# issue sustained combat HE equiv. HE equiv.
(rounds) per min. (kg) (kg)

Heavy Squad 27
- 9 x Kar 98 k 270 100 10 100 0,0128 346
- 1 x MG 34 27 3.400 600 3.400 0,0128 1.175
Medium MG 0 3.400 600 3.400 0,0128 0
Heavy MG 12 6.400 800 6.400 0,0128 983
5 cm GrW 9 150 15 150 0,900 1.215
8 cm GrW 6 150 12 150 3,500 3.150
3,7cm PaK 6 200 12 200 0,680 816
7,5 cm leIG (*) 6 200 12 200 5,500 6.600
15 cm sIG (*) 2 150 6 150 38,000 11.400 2 cm Flak 2 2.000 200 2.000 0,120 480

apart from other minor weapon's systems. 26.165

(*) can support the battallion attacked

THE UNIT AP factor IS AGAIN 10
BUT MUST BE OF 6

Let’s add arty

10,5cm leFH (*) 12 125 6 125 14,800 22.200
15 cm sFH (*) 4 75 4 75 43,500 13.050

61.415

and considering the arty support MUST BE OF 14

(*) can support the battallion attacked

----------

That all without considering the Hit Probability, CEP, effective weapons combat ranges and so on.

Note) Rounds are an estimation of the typical "unit of issue" at ready disposal of front units (normally two units of issue are carried within the division, one of them directly from combat units).

----------

Consideration :

The present routines, based mainly only on Rate of Fire, without a combat time-frame and space environment (within the hex – because of the impossibility to manage the combat modes – all fighting are unrealistically all vs all), are not able to represent the actual fire contribution of each weapons system. And, given that there is no adjustment for considering the tactical deployments of attacking and defending units, the differences are more and more relevant, the results more and more “randomized”.

That’s without speaking about the defence factors routines : how they really work ? ;

the AT factors (AT attack and armour defence – I guess that if AT would be calculated as average penetrations at 500 – 750 – 1000 meters and armour defence as average R.H.A. - Rolled Homogeneous Armour, considering slopes and for ex. a 50-20-20-10 ratio between frontal arc, sides and rear, for hull and turret), for which I have some calculations for main WW2 tanks that produce very different values;

and all other factors that must require significant adjustments : C3I, recon and above all sub-units coordination. It’s a discouraging experience to find out that an all tanks units performs well and get less losses that a well balanced battle group of the same size, in all environments.

The new TOAW could match with these inconsistencies, for designing real historical scenarios.

Have a nice day

r.bragg
05 Dec 05, 07:55
Sorry,

in the last post the copy / paste of my word tables was a disaster

For who is interested, I attach now the related tables in a pdf.format


Have a nice day !

Hellfish6
16 Dec 05, 13:20
Very interesting suggestions you have. I too have always wanted a strategic layer added onto TOAW with production, R&D and resource management. I think it'd enhance a lot of the larger scenarios we have now. Add that on top of your tactical and operational level changes and I think we'd have the best wargame ever.

But what I think I'd like most of all is dropping the hex system entirely. I'd rather deal with frontages and waypoints (or whatever) rather than keep playing with hexes. Hexes are SO 1975. ;)

macgregr
16 Dec 05, 14:35
I propose ( actually I already proposed - I'm merely trying to better articulate) the addition of a sub-unit called a 'production point'. The key thing about this unit is that when disbanded( or whatever you want to call it) it converts to actual replacements based on some monetary scale value for all replacements. This unit would appear as a monthly reinforcement on a resource hex regardless on who owns it . It would arrive understrength to represent that the fact that it is unrefined/undeveloped/unproduced. With the movement allowance of a truck and the defense strength somewhere between that of a truck and a factory it would have to move itself to a factory city where it could reach maximum strength as resupply. Thus, a factory city hex would be the only place where this 'production point' unit would be able to recieve more production points as resupply. The controlling player could decide to disband (or cash in) this unit at any time, even before it reaches maximum strength, though losing production points in the process -though only in a factory city hex. This would allow enemy bombers and submarines to attack this unit in transit or the factory where it is recieving resupply. The last time I posted this idea I think I confused some people. Does this explain it better?

- As far as I'm concerned the computer would decide how the production points convert to which replacements. Though I know there are many that want to select their replacements. Perhaps as a game option, because this would make the game considerably more time consuming.

Crimguy
19 Dec 05, 09:25
I'm not going to make any suggestions regarding the actual game mechanics because I'm not experienced enought with TAOW to recognize any deficiencies.

But, I would like to see a re-organizing of the UI:

More consistent placement of buttons, with a cancel and ok button on each dialog box, appearing in the same place every time.

Group the buttons into sections with dividers, based on what they do (View buttons, Unit buttons, Info Buttons)

Make use of Antialiased text for windows, maps, etc (gets hard to read when you get older)

Figure out a way to display unit information without having to go to the top right and then right-click on the unit. Perhaps re-think the entire unit selection process (I find HPS method to be a bit easier to work with, and I'm not otherwise the biggest HPS fan).

I've posted all this at Matrix, so I apologize for any redundency.

thx,
Matt

larryfulkerson
19 Dec 05, 17:18
Make use of Antialiased text for windows, maps, etc (gets hard to read when you get older)....Matt

There are MODs available to make the text easier to read. I'm using several of them now and wouldn't like to play without them.

you can find several good MODs at http://www.tdg.nu/indexdownload.html