View Full Version : Impressions about the training battles
Comrades,
I have played my small training scenario against the AI from both sides.
To be honest it was a very sobering experience.
When playing with the US around turn 15 the Russians were finished with only their ADA and SPATGM units remaining. Of course AI IS stupid I know. I did not lose a tank in the process.
Those OH 58D are quite a treasure. I envy NATO so much for them even more than their TI units. Tjis means we have to move ALWAYS in order not to be caught by artillery.
The TI units simply rule I think that has been said before a lot of times and it will be said even more times after...
When playing the Russians I maged to win a marginal with a score of 19000 to 9000. I admit I was very sloppy sometimes as it was an experiment and tried a few things BUT.
At least half of the US tanks were taken out by... guess what... infantry RPGs!!! Some were taken out after op-fire draining with light cheap throw-away armor. I still have to learn to use the SPATGMs more effectively. They are very inaccurate. So were the Mi24s Fleyta missiles. Not worh a cr@ap. They were effective against light vechicles though.
The T series are good when they have a chance to see their enemy. They also can sometimes survive many hits while the M60s are a one hit one kill story. Abrams are tough but destroyable within 10 hexes or so with the 125mm gun.
I found it not so effective to wait with the T80s and T64s in the open in order to catch something with their missiles. It never worked. The pest was to suppress the opposing armor and kill it with the tanks from close range like 1 hex if possible.
A nother lesson is that Bradleys are VERY dangerous against helicopters as well. They shot at least 2 of my Mi24s.
The good news is that the US artillery runs out of smoke quite fast.
Our Mig23s are not bad until they are used for standoff attack ONLY. The stingers are awfully accurate. No plane escaped unhurt which got near them. During standoff attack the panes tend to attack
-ammo dumps
-ADA
-Artillery
-and only then other targets.
In general I have to say the US represents a much more valuable combat force than a Soviet one bought by the same points. There are some answers to that problem as not all NATO units are TI capable like the Germans, and the Canadians except their SPATGMs.
I am curious how the rest of you do in this scenario. we have to start playing the training PBEM games. There you may find solutions during your games.
Some of the written above I shall summarize in the tricks and tips threads.
Let's get to work. The challenge lieas ahead of us!!!
Artur.
Gun_go_Boom
27 Nov 05, 20:38
Hrm, Comrades, I seem to have missed something over the last few days.
Were there training scenarios released, or was it more on us individually to construct the training simulations to train our troops? I am curious because at this point I am not even sure as to what types of forces I will be commanding in the coming conflict, and therefore don't know the best way to really prepare.
Some input will be appreciated. Thank you.
Gun_go_Boom
27 Nov 05, 20:41
Hrm, Comrades, I seem to have missed something over the last few days.
Were there training scenarios released, or was it more on us individually to construct the training simulations to train our troops? I am curious because at this point I am not even sure as to what types of forces I will be commanding in the coming conflict, and therefore don't know the best way to really prepare.
Some input will be appreciated. Thank you.
Disregard. I found the training files. Apparently I had been to these forums once too often and failed to notice the new postings.
Still awaiting any possible infomration as to which units I will be commanding on the battlefield, but at least now I have something to practice with while I await official orders.
:devious:
Well, my training game with Azog makes some things visible you ahve already mentioned.
M1s are killers but NATO ATGM are even worse. Azog has a Jaguar 2 in his inventory, which simply one shot kills units....
I played the small scenario on Russian side and here is a summarize from it:
Warthogs get you if you don't move and keep in wooded areas and even then they are quite deadly because Russian AA is worthless. US AA on the other hand is terribly accurate, every piece was able to hit my planes.
Overwatch with missile units is a must, they don't kill much but probably make enemy think twice about moving there. If deployed in rough terrain they are not easy to hit even by Abrams. Russian missiles in general are not very effective, they can hit if you take the shot from a prepared position but not a chance if you have to move (Hinds mostly).
Abrams can take plenty of hits from every caliber but Hinds can hurt them with rockets to the rear (which is probably not possible against human). Once supressed any US unit becomes easy to kill but that is not news to anyone.
AI was an easy enemy and I lost only 5-6 tanks and suprisingly little infantry, APCs suffered a little more and my arty was shot badly by Warthogs. Battle was over in 12 turns which tells everything you need to know about AI's skills. I did not go to open areas but rushed to an ambushposition behind the hills and crawled my infantry forward while scouting with Hinds and using their missiles (don't shoot M113s, they are not dangerous, BMPs are for them). I left BMPs to woods and rough waiting for targets for their missiles and moved tanks to protect the infantry. AI was hit from the side when it decided to take the open area route towards objective areas (something no sane human will do without using plenty of smoke) losing it's Abrams in a heap (missiles, tanks and Hinds, not a single kill with RPGs). Su-17s took out most of M-60s and that was it, game over before it even got started.
So, you need to play this against human to know anything worth knowing.
BTW, the only time US tank shot at my T-80 the result was a kill through front hull and I thought that T-80 should be able to take those 105mm shells at front and survive. Bad luck probably.
Vesku
BTW, the only time US tank shot at my T-80 the result was a kill through front hull and I thought that T-80 should be able to take those 105mm shells at front and survive. Bad luck probably.
Vesku
I'd say it was bad lcuk, I've made the experience that you can survive at least one or two hits, most of the time. On the other hand I had a 100point additioanl penetration on the front hull of an Abrams when firing with a T-55 ;) killed the tank with on shot :P
Have played Wulfir's Russoan defense with BMPs scenario. I know it is easy VS the AI bit you can still learn something about your equpment.
I won it quite easily. If you use the equipment well you shall not have problems against the AI. :smoke:
I started to play the Hungarian defence scenario. Now that is another matter. I repositioned many of the troops. The AI sent a lot of Abrams unescorted near my waiting T72s. I thought I will strike ruthlessly. I suppressed the Abrams with Mi24s and then went for the kill...just to find out thewt the T72s' 125mm shells bouncing off the Abrams' rear :mad: The Hungarian T72 is just not adequate for destroying Abrams even from ONE hex. I lost half of my tanks already and destroyed 5 Abrams. I destroyed additional M60s with Mi24 unguided rockets.
I am trying out how the delaying works with the Hungarian BMPs.
Artur.
Pannonicus
14 Dec 05, 17:21
Dont expect much, Malyutka is from a different era, not good in the 80s. I think Hungarian units should be pitted against Canadians or maybe Germans (leave their Leo2 tanks), against US they stand no chance.
Personally, I would prefer the Canadians: If I stop their M113s on long range (BMP-1 is perfect for that) my mechanized troops can deal with their infantry swarms. (Especially if I have by BM-21s.)
Pannonicus
14 Dec 05, 17:32
It seems to me that these topics are rather proliferating. Should not we concentrate our ideas, like the following:
-Air defence ops
-Fixed-wing aircraft ops
-Helicopter ops
-ATGMs
-TI and vision problems
-Mechanized infantry (in defense and on the offense)
-Tanks
-Engineers, fortifications, mining/demining
-Artillery
It would keep ideas together, and over the time, we could use it as an encyclopedia.
It seems to me that these topics are rather proliferating. Should not we concentrate our ideas, like the following:
-Air defence ops
-Fixed-wing aircraft ops
-Helicopter ops
-ATGMs
-TI and vision problems
-Mechanized infantry (in defense and on the offense)
-Tanks
-Engineers, fortifications, mining/demining
-Artillery
It would keep ideas together, and over the time, we could use it as an encyclopedia.
Yes the tips&tricks threads are for that :).
Comrades, we need more input on these topics! Do not be shy share youe knowledge/experience!!!
Artur.
Mechanized infantry(especially BMP) in defence may need a separate thread.
Pannonicus please start one and post your view on the topic.
Artur.
jadpanther
16 Dec 05, 02:06
I am using t64's and t80's agiainst a skilled dug-in human opponent. THe tanks are completely helpless against the TI. He is on a ridge which dominates the field of play. He throws smoke and stands behind it and shoots my tanks at will. The 105's punch thru the frontal armor of all my equipment, very few shots bounce off.
My Initial setup was to spread out so now I am trying to manuver and I am paying dearly for it. I tried to force my way thru with my hinds and air strikes but this seems to not have worked to well. My hinds have now all retreated from the field and standoff attacks from A10's have crushed my airdefenses. So now the cobra's will start to swarm the field. Not much to stop them any more.
I will continue to attempt to force my way thru but it sure seems to be a waste of good troops to against the americans.
I opt for a new thought in strategy overall!! Lets not fight the americans!! Whereever we find them lets just hold in place in front of them and probe while we concentrate our better troops against the enemy forces which are less capable. Why should we waste our strength against their strongest forces?
I think Sun Tsu said something along the lines of "A river always seeks the path of least resistance". This way we might be able to force the americans to attack us and our defensive capabilities can then hurt them more.
Just a few thoughts for the game.
...A10's have crushed my airdefenses...
That is why I try to include into the rules that the sylkas would be abstracted as well protecting the troops in the near hex. (operationally) Training battles have a GREAT operational input.
I opt for a new thought in strategy overall!! Lets not fight the americans!! Whereever we find them lets just hold in place in front of them and probe while we concentrate our better troops against the enemy forces which are less capable. Why should we waste our strength against their strongest forces?
I think Sun Tsu said something along the lines of "A river always seeks the path of least resistance". This way we might be able to force the americans to attack us and our defensive capabilities can then hurt them more.
Absolutely agreed.
Artur.
Pannonicus
16 Dec 05, 18:58
However, regarding the river, Liddel Hart also said that the trick is to hit the crucial but weakly protected joint of the enemy, causing disbalance.
I agree not to attack the Americans, letting them come to our way. However, sooner or later we will have to deal with them. As supply is not a crucial element in the game, we cannot play that card. Instead, I would concentrate on destroying their support elements, artillery and air. Once they lost them, together with their air defense cover, we can grind them down.
Rompa played US in an attack on a town defended by Vesku’s Russians. US had a company of M1s, company of M60s and a mechcompany. Russia has a mechbattalion reinforced by a company of T-64s.
First turns saw some longrange firing which Russians win, destroying several tanks and APCs with missiles and gunfire from concealed positions, spotted units are quickly lost though. M1s prove to be tough to break, missiles have no effect and 125mm shells rarely penetrate. Slowly artillery joins the fight and Russians are outgunned there, Godzillas fail to damage anything but M109s kill units almost every turn. Some A10s also appear but are quickly forced out of the skies by strelas and shilkas, our own Migs are not doing much better.
The town is surrounded by woods which see some closerange fighting between Russian mechinfantry and all types of US units. Finally some M1s are stopped by RPGfire but when the town is under fire from M1s it is impossible for armour to move, Russian armour is quickly destroyed. BMPs keep infantry at bay where ever US don’t have tanksupport.
Russians are melting away pretty quickly, TI ruling the field. It is possible to hurt them from good positions but it costs a lot of units. Best chance is probably with infantry in a tough terrain, trying to ambush the M1s.
Casualties:
US
Cavalry Scouts team: 6
SAW Team: 2
Mech. Rifle Sqd: 6
Pioneers: 1
Assault Eng.: 1
MMG Sect.: 1
Dragon Team: 6
M3A1 Bradley: 5
M113A2: 22
M113A1 Dragon: 2
M1 Abrams: 9 + 1 immobilized
M60A3 (TTS):15 + 1 immobilized
Russian
Mech inf sqd: 17
AGS-17: 6
PKMS: 2
SA-7: 4
BMP-2: 32
T-64B: 11
Jeep: 1
2S1 Gvoz: 2
Very good report Vesku! Jad&Pannonivus please write a similar report on your game. With losses. Of course I ask the other comrades to do the same! mr_clark, stonefire, azog, Boomer, you also have done training battles. Please share your experience.
I will aso summarize our game with Jad, but now I am busy creating a training scenario...
Artur.
Pannonicus
21 Jan 06, 18:12
Just a question, I asked at several places, but no reply yet. Does WG have TI on Leo2s, or not. I installed the patch on shrapnel game, and it changed WG vision to 30 instead of 40. Any hint?
Just a question, I asked at several places, but no reply yet. Does WG have TI on Leo2s, or not. I installed the patch on shrapnel game, and it changed WG vision to 30 instead of 40. Any hint?
In my version Leo2s have no TI. DD please confir this! I would be totally unfair the WGs also having TI. NATO has already a huge advantage even with equal points.
Artur.
Hi, I've played the battle last evening, here comes my impressions/notes I made during play. In the next post I will specify my opinion.
Turn 1 only some visuals
2 Cobra
6 Fuchs
1 bradley
retreated the SPW 40s and put the RPG teams one 1 fire range and activate RPG and RKG
Enemy 2
Destroyed one and immobilised 2 more Fuchs. Attacking again for destruction and succeeding, rally not absolutely neccessary for attack, RKG proves very satisfactionary against Fuchs. RPG retreats in two cases
Count Start turn 2
3 destroyed Fuchs
6 Cobra --> could be easy prey for MANPAD....RPK somehow don't fire on ranges +100m s
5 live Fuchs
2 Bradleys
3 Leo 1A1A2
1 m151 jeep
Malutkas have up to 12 targets each, including most choppers (for each one) Hit chance roughly 25% average, I am not firing.
Enemy 3
Continues advance a cobra kills a RPG team that couldn't hide last time.... In the end traded it for a Fuchs. My first arty comes in, misses two fuchs by inches. That was a good spot :D
First Two MIG 23 come in. One Bradley down, one Leo down. First Mig hit and damaged by Stinger. Still alive.
Count Start Turn 3
4 destroyed Fuchs
1 destroyed Bradley
1 destroyed Leo
3 Cobras, rest must be up north now
1 live Bradley. Position suggests it's a new one (the other that was right next to him last round is now destroyed a number of hexes above)
6 Fuchs (found out the fuchs next to arty hits are buttoned)
1 M151 Jeep, must be another one, sits on the opposite site of the map.
1 Stinger
Moved RPG teams to new positions, one to defend V hex against new ambush (just moved three hexes up) and one to stall a probable enemy route of advance. Attacked a Cobra who spotted my forward observers with RPK. It evaded but wasn't damaged. BMP have some targets in long range, not firing. Fires Two Malutka Killing a Fuchs and hitting the Brad for no kill.
Enemy 4
Enemy Air support successfully kills a Fuchs and a Bradley (haha). Arty has no effect hitting areas I never was at or I left already. Cobras kill my observer team and one malutka. --> allright moving is absolutely crutial
My Arty doesn't kill anything but a Fuchs is hit two times by 122mm, retreating.
Air Support: One hit by another Stinger damaged, fires back and kills one crew member of the stinger. Three more Mig 23s kill one more Bradley and another LEO. All shots are hits but first on LEO didn't penetrate.
Count turn 4
5 Fuchs down
3 brad down
2 Leo down
2 Cobras visible
1 stinger visible but is another one. (other side of map)
2 LEOs
4 Fuchs visible, the remaining one must be moving up north under cover
1 jeep.
RPG destroys a Fuchs at 100 meters, it's a gamble but I recon 65% must be suffice. Moving back with my RPGs, trying to get into good positions for either killing a stupid Fuchs, and/or retreating the next turn. My malutkas have only a single Jeep as target, I am not firing, hoping for more Fuchs or Tanks..
Enemy 5
Enemy Arty kills another Fuchs... Another Fuchs comes closer to one of my retreating (on purpose) RPG teams and is immobilized by RKG. Killed now.
Nothing else happened, my arty hits far north of the enemy. I guess a human opponent would be right in it.
Count turn 5
7 Fuchs down
3 brad down
2 leos down
2 fuchs visible
1 stinger visible
1 Jeep visible.
1 Cobra visible
The Cobra is right next to a PKM team, I open fire and the chopper flees.Malutka kills a lonely Fuchs that was advancing. Then the ATGM team moves and prepares to leave the battlefield in the next two or three turns. My eastern RPG teams flee the map. These in the middle in the nordwest of the train station stay in cover.
Enemy 6
A Leo is immobilised by the opportunity attack of an RPG. Nothing else.
My Air support hits. Killing the immobilised Leo, the Stinger team another Fuchs and the Jeep. No enemy fire this time.
Count turn 6
9 fuchs down
3 brad down
3 leos down
1 Jeep down
2 Cobra visible
1 Leo visible
One of the Cobras is right over my RPG team that hit the Leo... I let the RPG team shoot at it with AK. Cobra flees I hope I can get my RPG to safety. Meanwhile I prepare the Infantry to board the BMP. 1.5 turns until the last PGM Air support, then I want to have everybody ready to leave.
Enemy 7
Enemy Cobra tries to get new fix on RPG. IS shot at and moves away.
Count turn 7
9 fuchs down
3 brad down
3 leos down
1 Jeep down
3 Cobra visible
I continue my retreat. One fleeing RPG team sees 2 Jäger squads, not fired upon.
Enemy 8
Leo on top of Hill 469. Just evaced the hill... :P
Air support hit roughly around the Jägers, annihilating virtually one squad, buttoning the rest with FAE.
Count turn 8
9 fuchs down
3 brad down
3 leos down
1 Jeep down
3 Cobra visible
1 Leo visible
3 Jäger squads
I retreat all my forces now. Realised I forgot one Malutka team near 469... 3 hexes from the Leo, damn large minimum range. Maybe the RPG 7 can do something if the LEO decides to come down.
Enemy 9
The Leo and Jägers advance unopposed, nobody firing
Count 9
downs as before,
2 Jägers
1 LEO
2Cobras
Retreating. Only have two RPG teams and the Malutka still on board.
10 as before
11 as before
12 an RPG team attacked and damaged a Cobra
13 an RPG team is attacked and destroyed a Cobra
RETREAT without further casulties @ turn 15
Here are my opinions about the course of the battle.
Losses were: West Germany Men 65
Soft 02
IFV 13
AFV 3
East Germany Men 09 (two RPG, one Observer, one malutka)
The battle result was depicted as a draw, but we actually won, as we have destroyed a large number of enemy recon assets.
Actually we could have quit the batte after turn 3, as then the general composition of the enemy force was clear. We saw enough Fuchs to see that it must be a company, the sighted Bradleys suggested presence of a platoon of troops, same counts for the Leopard. We can base those assumptions on the strategic recon we get, ie if we know there must be a force of Batallion strength we can retreat after we have seen 20 different units.
Air Assets are quite strong especially PGM, though one has to bear in mind that they can assault own units as well.
Artillery is only helpfull for delaying the action, thought smoke can be helpfull in the retreat phase.
Of course the training battle against the AI does not give us a complete picture of the possibilities.
The AI used it's choppers rather badly, not taking them to scout areas where a unit was destroyed in the last OPFOR turn, or blasts support on top of it's own units.
Our own setup for the battle was quite good, though a little better fields of fire for the BMPs would have been good. They had only visuals on ranges up from 1500 meters, which are not suitable for a sure hit and kill with it's weapons. They only regain visuals at very close range, which can be dangerous if no one shot kills can be guaranteed.
Double Deuce
24 Jan 06, 08:43
Just a question, I asked at several places, but no reply yet. Does WG have TI on Leo2s, or not. I installed the patch on shrapnel game, and it changed WG vision to 30 instead of 40. Any hint?Sorry. I PM'ed this info to Artur and forgot to cc here.
The Leo 1A2A1 have a vis of 20.
The Leo 2A1 have a vis of 30.
Here are my opinions about the course of the battle.
Losses were: West Germany Men 65
Soft 02
IFV 13
AFV 3
East Germany Men 09 (two RPG, one Observer, one malutka)
The battle result was depicted as a draw, but we actually won, as we have destroyed a large number of enemy recon assets.
This is a very good result!
Actually we could have quit the batte after turn 3, as then the general composition of the enemy force was clear. We saw enough Fuchs to see that it must be a company, the sighted Bradleys suggested presence of a platoon of troops, same counts for the Leopard. We can base those assumptions on the strategic recon we get, ie if we know there must be a force of Batallion strength we can retreat after we have seen 20 different units.
Very good recon, of course we must stay in place if it is possible without losing our units. We shall try to slip past them if possible.
Air Assets are quite strong especially PGM, though one has to bear in mind that they can assault own units as well.
Yes.
Artillery is only helpfull for delaying the action, thought smoke can be helpfull in the retreat phase.
Yes.
Of course the training battle against the AI does not give us a complete picture of the possibilities.
The AI used it's choppers rather badly, not taking them to scout areas where a unit was destroyed in the last OPFOR turn, or blasts support on top of it's own units.
VERY true. Now you should get a human opponent ASAP. How are your other training battles going on????
Our own setup for the battle was quite good, though a little better fields of fire for the BMPs would have been good. They had only visuals on ranges up from 1500 meters, which are not suitable for a sure hit and kill with it's weapons. They only regain visuals at very close range, which can be dangerous if no one shot kills can be guaranteed.
That was on purpose. If you read my post about the application of the BMPs you can see why they have a more narrow LOS. We need to keep them alive. Wulfir is now doing some tests with both Broad and narrow field of fire setup to see what is more effective for us. NEVER forget we have to keep our vehicles(Tanks/BMPs) alive to be able to fire their precious load every OP turn.
Artur.
Pannonicus
25 Jan 06, 06:33
AAR on Jagdpanther (WG) vs. Pannonicus (Hungary), WG assaults Hungary engagement
Deployment – Arthur set it up, according to what he wrote in the topic. Hungarian forces were organized in platoons, infantry and BMPs providing support to each other. It has worked very well. On deployment, however, I would like to note two things: First, WG forces can be deployed differently – here Leo2 companies were in the middle, not mixed with infantry. Most players would probably do differently, and mix them among Marders. That way they are much more effective, supporting weaker-armed carriers with their stabilized and powerful guns. On the other side, Hungarian tanks were too concentrated, and already embedded in the second line of defense. I would rather keep them as mobile reserve, not committed to any sector's defense, capable to counterattack locally.
I. phase – WG units advanced, using A LOT of artillery-deployed smoke. (Since we did not change yet to the new WG OOB, Leo2s had TI, I think. So it was MUCH MORE favourable environment for WG in the first 10-11 turns than later!) BMPs hit some Marders with Malyutkas, but many ATGMs missed. They are not TOW, not very accurate, especially over 1500m. A few BMPs were also popped by Leo2s with TI. Runs by Hinds were quite successful, not because of Fleyta missiles, but HEAT-headed rockets. Gepards however moved up, and soon it ended the good old times for my Hinds. They retreated, damaged.
II. phase – as Marders with PzGrens edged close to the first row of hills, their advance slowed down, especially in the Eastern part of the map, in the town. It was the right moment to hit them with all my artillery, using Time on Target (shifting arty so that the first time they fire they fire 0.0, meaning as much as possible. Since WG mech infantry was unable to move quickly through the hill overlooking the town (as it was defended with dug-in Hun mech infantry), they were hit over a few turns quite well, causing casualties in great numbers.
On the more open Western edge their attack went much better, as their Leo2s could fire through the smoke layer.
III. phase – My withdrawal from the first line did not go very well, for two reasons: I started it too late, hoping for a few more kills (which I got, but at a cost), and second, it was impossible to cover my retreat, either by smoke (enemy TI), or by fire of the second line (smoke). However, some units managed to escape.
IV. phase – it was essentially a repetition of the II. phase, close-quarters fighting, in which my infantry excelled, knocking out several enemy units with RPG fire. T-72s came into play as well, very effectively knocking out Leo2s. However, smoke and TI still proved to be a deadly combination. An enemy helo (BO-105) failed on the screen of Strela-2 missiled, on the other hand, enemy arty with cluster munitions proved to be fatal to many of my armored vehicles, including tanks. In this phase they caused the greatest number of casualties. Fagot missiled proved to be accurate and hard to suppress, but still lacking the power to knock out Leo2s. There is no antidote against A-10: maybe on operational level our SAMs will deal with them.
V. phase – it was the end-game, the enemy has bombarded gaps into my second line of defence, but due to the change of WG OOB (Leo2 vision down to 30) I had much better chances now. A counter-attack by 4 remanining T-72s stopped an enemy armored coloumn at the North-West village, therefore I managed to hold it. (However, in a few more turns they would have cleared the woods West of it, with still half-a company of Marders and a few Leo2s.) On the East, they run out of breath, not being able to occupy my last line of V-hexes. In the middle, my artillery and command structure was unharmed, however, it begun to receive serious pounding by enemy 155mms.
This is how the game ended, it was basically a stalemate, non of us could have resumed offensive operations, I think. I still held my baseline, but suffered substantial casualties. Here are the end results, not moving (just letting turns pass) after turn 15, with artillery still working on both sides, however.
WG casualties
Man: 346
Arty: 0
APC: 45
AFV: 21
Helo: 4
Points: 8708
Hungarian casualties
Man: 224
Arty: 0
APC: 32
AFV: 6
Helo: 1
Points: 12190
DRAW
Lessons learned:
Use Malyutkas on shorter 1500m-600m range, they are more accurate then.
WG forces have NO TI now, so conventional tactics work against them.
BO-105 is not accurate at all when moving, and quite sensitive to MANPADS.
Tanks should be more evenly distributed, and used in local counterattacks. If they move slow, stabilization works well, and they are accurate.
Cluster munitions are deadly, avoid them.
WG has longer-range guns than Hungary, so counter-battery could have been effective. (Maybe, if we have something good, give 1-2 sections to each of us, so we can fire counter-battery instead of them.)
A-10 using Maverics is deadly, we have to counter them on op. level, by SAM systems.
Use artillery right in front of your positions, then you can be sure the enemy is slowed down, so your plotting will be right on their heads. Once you slowed them down, a BTR-40 AOP is usually enough to keep arty shifting on their head.
RPG is quite accurate, and infantry is holding long when dug-in. However, if enemy have the time, they can also use their infantry to dislodge and to fire Panzerfaust 44 which is also deadly to BMPs at 100-150m.
Conclusion: A smaller Hungarian BMP force with little tanks support is capable of not only slowing, but – with heavier losses – to entirely stop a WG advance. Provided we can push into the "vacuum" created by that more troops than the enemy can, we can achieve victory.
Excellent AAR and very good training!
The lessons learned are invaluable!
Thanks for both of you!
Artur.
I have one comment on the comments :). I put the tanks seeming to be part of the defense line, that is true. I also intend to use the tanks as a mobile reserve. The reason why they are deployed like that is for having the initial revetements dug in good place for withdrawing vehicles. We have to use our mobile vehicles for gaining extra "fortifications" if possible. that's all :devious: .
That is valid to reserve infantry and APCs as well.
Artur.
Rompa played US in an attack on a town defended by Vesku’s Russians. US had a company of M1s, company of M60s and a mechcompany. Russia has a mechbattalion reinforced by a company of T-64s.
First turns saw some longrange firing which Russians win, destroying several tanks and APCs with missiles and gunfire from concealed positions, spotted units are quickly lost though. M1s prove to be tough to break, missiles have no effect and 125mm shells rarely penetrate. Slowly artillery joins the fight and Russians are outgunned there, Godzillas fail to damage anything but M109s kill units almost every turn. Some A10s also appear but are quickly forced out of the skies by strelas and shilkas, our own Migs are not doing much better.
The town is surrounded by woods which see some closerange fighting between Russian mechinfantry and all types of US units. Finally some M1s are stopped by RPGfire but when the town is under fire from M1s it is impossible for armour to move, Russian armour is quickly destroyed. BMPs keep infantry at bay where ever US don’t have tanksupport.
Russians are melting away pretty quickly, TI ruling the field. It is possible to hurt them from good positions but it costs a lot of units. Best chance is probably with infantry in a tough terrain, trying to ambush the M1s.
My small notes on the battle against Vesku, I was US player
In the beggining I moved to fast without overwatch support and lost some M1´s and APC´s, lesson learned!
the biggest issue was sighting those BMP-2 that fired from conceled dug in possitions the konkurs ATGM aggainst me, when I slowed down my movement with the M1´s the armour bounced of the konkurs missile 7 of 10 times but M60 and Bradleys were killed and after 2nd fire from BMP-2 I sigthed them and could kill them, (so BMP should fire and move too new cover)
The arty from soviets didnt even scratch the paint on my tanks, when I unloaded my inf from M113´s in the forest and come in to fire with Soviet inf units then the Soviet arty could keep my inf suppresed so I could not move out of there and in too town (but very rearly killed any men) the cluster ammo from US Art. Battery are a killer tho.
I lost my UH chopper early, a small burts of fire from a BMP and it reatreated of map :OHNO:
It maybe could have made a big differens if I would have had it on hand later for spotting those BMP-2´s
Also I didnt fire that much smoke as I should have done maybe too conceale my movement.
Very good lessons as always.
NATO has the TI capability and with that they will fire their last smoke ammo jut to make their TI tanks fire from positions where they are invulnerable to enemy fire.
How easy or hard was the spotting of the BMPs?
Artur.
Spotting the BMP´s were really hard, when first tank were killed by a konkurs I saw the general direction the missile were coming from then I could smoke that area and move some tanks in possition and then had to wait for the BMP to fire again and even then I didnt saw it, sometimes the BMP could get 3 shots (3 turns) before I could spot it.
jadpanther
01 Feb 06, 16:08
In the upcoming engagements what version of the Marder are we going to be facing. I have used the Marder without the milan on the offense. And now have had to face it on the defese with the Milan. It sure make a big difference in the WG firepower. I have lost 40% of my force to the WG Milans...........I need to know what we will be going up against.
Jad
Jad,
In both training scenarios I used the same WG mech inf company OOB which is defined in the West German OOB thread. A WG mech inf platoon has 2 Marder+ which have the Milans and there is mone Marder that has no ATGM. A WG mech inf co has 4 platoons plus a HQ section.
Artur.
jadpanther
02 Feb 06, 19:45
My Comrade's,
If NATO is gifted with commanders as good as those that I have had to attack in these training battles we are in for a hard fight. My compliments to Comrades Pannonicus and Infomey for giving me valuble lessons in how little I actually I know about this game.
My training continues against Shorreengage also. I have played him in another game of MBT. He is very tactically skilled in using his forces, fear this one if you have to go up against him.
I have another assault starting for practice, I hope this one goes better.
Comrade Jad
I'm playing Ex7 US assault against Rompa's Russian BMP battalion reinforced with Hinds and T-64Bs. We have played only a few turns but already the map is filled with burning Russian vehicles and Hinds have all retreated from the map, US casualties are two lost Cobras and 5 have retreated leaving three over the field. So far only one BMP has taken a shot against US land forces, all Russian casualties are delivered by arty, Cobras and Warthogs. I'm expecting a little more casualties when my Cobras are done but it is possible that there is nothing left of the Russians at that moment. A BMP regiment without its Shilkas is very vulnerable against helos, might be even with them.
Vesku,
How did your opponent use his strelas?
Artur.
Vesku,
How did your opponent use his strelas?
Artur.
They have taken couple of shots at max range, 3-10% chance to hit.
Vesku
Well we have to try to set the Strelas' range to half of the max range. The problem with Shilkas and SA-9s is that the airplanes with PGM will target them at first priority. So after one turn we shall not have them any more. They will not have a chance to shoot at the A-10s when they perform a standoff attack. That is why I put all the SA-9 in operational support role. they will engage the A10s before they arrive at the target area hopefully. They have a range of 3 Operational hexes. I am thinking about re-assigning the Shilkas to the troops buy if they do a direct attack on the SAM sites they can be useful.
Artur.
Well we have to try to set the Strelas' range to half of the max range. The problem with Shilkas and SA-9s is that the airplanes with PGM will target them at first priority. So after one turn we shall not have them any more. They will not have a chance to shoot at the A-10s when they perform a standoff attack. That is why I put all the SA-9 in operational support role. they will engage the A10s before they arrive at the target area hopefully. They have a range of 3 Operational hexes. I am thinking about re-assigning the Shilkas to the troops buy if they do a direct attack on the SAM sites they can be useful.
Artur.
Ok. I read on some forum that setting the range of AA affects only ground to ground fire and not ground to air which would always use max range, does that still apply?
Vesku
Comrades,
These training battles give good input again. Since the Soviet BMP battalions are the backbone of our defense, and they had 6 Strelas/battalion I added each of them 3 Strelas more from the BTR battalions. Every BMP2 battalion will have 9 Strelas which are good against helos hopefully. The A-10s are another thing, they will be fired at SA-4s SA-6s and SA-9s on the operational level in a hope they will destroy some of them. We must have no illusions, the A-10s will sure cause us heavy damage and they will be hard to shoot down.
The BTR regiment has a ZSU battery moving with it to comphensate.
Here I mention a small dirty trick. I played one of my training scenarios solo. There I realized if we leave a jeep in the open and the rest of the vehicles are well hidden the planes will shoot at the jeep. Sometimes one missile is not enough so the planes will waste more PGMs on it :).
Artur.
Ok. I read on some forum that setting the range of AA affects only ground to ground fire and not ground to air which would always use max range, does that still apply?
Vesku
We have to try it out in training scenarios :).
Artur.
Comrades,
I own you the report about my training battles against jad and Tanker.
In both games I played the Americans against the Soviets.
Both games had a lot in common as both battles had similar phases.
1. The recon phase and the "Air battle".
2. Contact with the main body.
3. The final charges.
In the first phase Americans had a huge advantage, the radar helos and the planes.
The airplanes had awfully effective PGMs to destroy enemy units with.I had Dragon teams dug in at the hill tops observing. I also had Cobras in reserve to strike at the enemy helos if they come. The soviets canme in both games with recon infantry and the Hinds.
That is why the excitement in the first turns was the "Air battle" between the Helicopters and SAMs. Since the Soviets were attacking, the American Stinger SAMs were more involved int the fight than their Soviet counterparts. The SAMs have damaged Many Hinds but destroyed none. During these dogfights I lost one Cobra in each game, once they are hit, they are destroyed more easily that the Hinds. After these dogfights all Hinds retreated damaged off map in both games. I had a couple or more Cobras but they were damaged afterwards by the Soviets especially MANPADs. While I had my helos flying and on map I had a very clear picture about the Soviet troop positions, their moving directions, concentrations, etc. Once I got over-confident, I lost my remaining helos (in the game against Tanker) and without eyes it was very much harder.
When the Soviet main body arrived both of my opponents tried to advance in the very south of the map and in the north where the terrain allowed more cover during the advance. At the beginning the Americans had planty of SPATGMs(including Bradleys) and smoke. That proved to be a deadly combination, a lot of Soviet units were destroyed by them sitting behind smoke and fireing. A lot of 122mm artillery shells fell on the hills I was defending with little efficiency. (That will change since we recently got two Akatsya batteries with cluster ammo!!!). The most effective units were the Abrams doing Shoot and scoot tactics they are both fast and have relatively good gun. The M60s did well but their slowness was a real hinder.
The first shock was the soviet air attack, their PGM was as effective as the Americans and in both games I lost 3-4 Abrams to air attacks. That was felt later on.
The second more or less surptise was that on greater distance the 105mm shells bounced off the T80s and T64Bs. Even the dragon missiles failed to penetrate.
Of course smoke was protective and I changed tactics by destroying the escorting BTRs rather than waste shots on the stubborn Russian Steel. Tanks without infantry support was relatively easier to deal with.
In the game against Tanker I made some mistakes by forgotting to pop smoke when needed, and he retaliated at once. The T80s took out 3 of my Abrams from long range. It was a sobering experience.
The game against Jad ended in turn 13 his last assault was broken up by my units sitting behind smoke. I also lost many ubits but my smoke and missiles held out longer than the charging soviets.
In the other game Tanker made a more patient approach. We were duelling, I destroyed several of his attacking units he destroyed those units that I forgot to pop smoke for. At the end we were both worn down when he initiated a last charge with few infantry, but quite measurable amount of tanks. The Air Guys saved the day, their cluster munitions caused horrible losses to the grouping soviets. The Soviet air also made bombing runs and even managed to destroy one abrams with cluster ammo but many were destroyed.
One interesting thing was that I begun to run out of smoke. that was very unpleasant because Soviets are far better if the Americans cannot use TI any more. The bad news is that tis occured in turn 25 and I did not give the Americans the mortars they have (that means more smoke).
By the end of both games The Americans held of course losses were heavy on both sides. This was an 1:1.6 point ratio game a quite dire situation for the attacking soviets.
The lessons learned.
1. We must keep our Hinds alive and operating, We must win the air dogfighting
2. We shall have Akatsyas with AP ammo and we have to prevent NATO to use their smoke wall.
3. Once NATO runs out of smoke they are in trouble.
4. Cluster ammo delivered both by planes or artillery (ok the las was not present in this battle) is deadly.
5. Our planes must do standoff attacks ONLY. They are very fragile, and stingers are very good.
6. The A-10s on the other hand are quite good at surviving and our Streals are very innacurate. The ZSU23s are better but they are the first targets for NATO standoff air attacks.
7. I have a feeling when we attack we must not do it piecemal. The effective NATO guns will chew us.
8. No matter who is attacking with heavy armor the supporting APCs or IFVs have to be taken out first, without infantry support the biggies are helpless.
Thanks again for both Jad and Tanker for the game.
Artur.
I have a feeling when we attack we must not do it piecemal.
I second that.
We must be able to hit hard when we attack. Really, really pour it on. The 20 turn limit will not allow for much fancy manouvering I think.
jadpanther
16 Feb 06, 20:43
Arthur,
I am on my 5th or 6th training battle now since the one I fought against you. I have learned much, but I am still being very frustrated in my attacks.
some questions I have for you:
1. I still have not been able to get my cocat working on my laptop. How will this effect me in setting up my recon units for the upcoming game start?
2. When we engage the enemy are we going to be fighting balanced fights or are we just fighting what actually is being engaged from the strategic map?
3. How much air support will be allocated to my attacks? I am finding that these are the only weapons that can help when I have to go up against TI
I have found that at this level of play you need an extremely balanced attack in order to overcome your opponents.
Comrade Jad
Arthur,
I am on my 5th or 6th training battle now since the one I fought against you. I have learned much, but I am still being very frustrated in my attacks.
The more you train the better youl'll be ;) Attacking is not an easy job.
some questions I have for you:
1. I still have not been able to get my cocat working on my laptop. How will this effect me in setting up my recon units for the upcoming game start?
We need to get in touch with each other via PM to sort this out. I think the best would be if I write steps hpw to install COCAT. You can play without COCAT but regimental commaqnders need to have it working.
2. When we engage the enemy are we going to be fighting balanced fights or are we just fighting what actually is being engaged from the strategic map?
We are going to fight with troops right from the strategic map. If we are smart enough to make a 10:1 odds the better. Forget about tourney ballanced games and points. We need to nonish off the enemy on the long run and preserving our forces as much as we can. In dire situations in most cases it is better to retreat and fight another day.
3. How much air support will be allocated to my attacks? I am finding that these are the only weapons that can help when I have to go up against TI
We have 16 planes but we shall have losses. I estimate that the main breakthrough attack may get some 6-12 planes depending on the overall situation. And do not forget about the Hinds. We have 24 AND we have to keep them alive they are not like the planes which will supper casualties from operational ADA anyway. You may get 8-16 Hinds as well but these numbers are NOT promises just estimates.
I have found that at this level of play you need an extremely balanced attack in order to overcome your opponents.
Comrade Jad
What do you mean by ballanced attack? Anyway the best attacking scenario is if we attack their worn-out spearhead that just tried to break through our lines. Otherwise we try to attack the Germans or the Canadians. We need at leas 3:1 odds for it, I don't know if we can achieve that but we shall try.
Artur.
jadpanther
17 Feb 06, 03:52
Arthur,
The Balanced attack I am speaking of, consists of first surpressing his airdefenses, then using the air assets to supress or destroy the TI equipment, so yo can then finally move forward with your combined assault to finally engage the enemys force.
The trick to it is finally getting it all to work together........lol........I'm tryin though.
Jad
Arthur,
The trick to it is finally getting it all to work together........lol........I'm tryin though.
Jad
Just try on ... :)
Artur.
Played some with the Canadians
Here's my take on their gear:
SPATGM (TOW) - It's a TI unit, good for long range work. Not so good when you have to start moving around (better than the Soviet SPATGMs (Spandrel) though...
Leopard Tank - fast, accurate, plenty of shots. Excellent unit to manouver around with, does not stand up well tank to tank with the Soviet tracks though or BMPs for that matter (BMP ATGM will knock it out). In my game with Jad, my 4 Leopard Is killed twice the stuff my 8 SPATGMs (with TI) did.
The Canadian infantry company - strong, mobile, well armed. In defence it can be hard to shift. Will probably be useful for NATO in the attack as well.
M109 Arty - cluster ammo. This unit has the potential to be a royal pain in the a** for us.
Blowpipe - not a Stinger, but dangerous all the same to anything WP flying about.
Also in my game with Jadpanther there were two cases of friendly fire when Soviet air attacked Soviet artillery positions. I'd be interested in knowing under what circumstances air targets friendly units (most of Jad's air hit my forces though, but, didn't kill all that much).
Here I mention a small dirty trick. I played one of my training scenarios solo. There I realized if we leave a jeep in the open and the rest of the vehicles are well hidden the planes will shoot at the jeep. Sometimes one missile is not enough so the planes will waste more PGMs on it :).
Artur.
I've been doing that several times, try to park your vehicles in woods and keep some empty trucks cruising full speed on the roads to attract air attacks, works very well.
Vesku
US assault by Vesku against Rompas BMP regiment.
Casualties:
Russia US
Men 407 100
Soft veh 3 0
APC 39 13 (Brad*3, M113*10)
AFV 30 5 (Leo2*2, M1*2, M981)
Helos 0 3 Cobras
As you can see, it was a massacre. We started with a dogfight between Cobras and Hinds which ended up with all the Hinds and half the Cobras leaving the field. This left US with a very good opportunity to scout the field and use its powerful arty and Warthogs to take out a large part of Russian vehicles. There never was a real fight here, after the pounding it was only a mop up for the ground forces.
Leos were lost in a close combat with Russian infantry, Abrams' by a Kerry from Mig and a Konkurs. APCs were the unavoidable losses of recon and airstrikes and soldiers were digging out the entrenched Russians. All in all, very very few casualties for US. We can't win with this ratio.
Kerry is a powerful weapon and planes should be used only as long as they have missiles. US had no airdefence so they might be not as accurate when fired upon. Only one T-64 was killed by Abrams and this was through smoke so they never had a chance. BMPs are nasty, if they are entrenched and use only their missiles they can survive long enough to take out a tank or two but they are truely deadly against M113s and infantry. Russian infantry is what is the backbone of defence, you always need to sacrificy something to dig them out.
So ... if this is the battle we are facing there never will be a battle. We need to figure out how to take out their Cobras quickly. Not much we can do about Warthogs or arty.
Vesku
US assault (Vesku) against Soviet BMP reg (Rompa)
This battle was over when US with 11 Cobras attacked against 6 Hinds, when all hinds and half the Cobras retreated of map the field was open for remaining Cobras to rape the Soviets.
They destroyed some T-64B´s with missiles and then guided the artillery in with cluster ammo to take out the rest of my units.
My SA-7 SAM units were deployd in the rear and to map edges it took to long for me to drive Jeeps to them and then move them forward, in range to be accurate to kill helos by the time they arrived the BMP´s had taken care of Cobras.
If this had been a "real" fight theres no way we can stay on the battlefield and belive we will survive long on this conditions, but as this was a training battle I tryied to stay and kill as many enemy units I could resulting in all Soviet units wiped out :dead: :eek1:
The Kerrys on MIG´s are fine it can kill anything.
jadpanther
19 Feb 06, 16:49
Rompa,
Don't feel like you are alone in this. In every battle I have fought so far, I have managed to destroy over 3/4's of my troops for only limited gains. It's tough to the tip of the sword!!! In most of the battles I have fought so far in Real life the attacks would have broken off way before I did here in our digi world.
Comrade Jad.
I recently got clobbered by Jadpanther... :dead:
Had a delay mission vs Jad's Soviets..., my intention was to ignore VHs (the setup had VHs included) and concentrate on killing enemy units while pulling back while avoiding own losses. I had envisioned a fighting retreat off the map... my OOB included a Canadian Tank company, a Canadian mech inf company and various support elements incl. an on map Arty Battery...
The plan did not work out at all.
Jad came on in a very agressive manner on a narrow front which quickly broke through rolling through my rear shooting up my arty support which apart from some successful counterbattery fire didn't do much harm (noticed however that M-109s can be somewhat dangerous against enemy armour).
No wasted points on T10 heavy tanks this time either. ;)
Well done Jad!
I'll try to put up a better fight against the regiment!
Stonefire
16 Mar 06, 14:53
...
Of course the training battle against the AI does not give us a complete picture of the possibilities.
The AI used it's choppers rather badly, not taking them to scout areas where a unit was destroyed in the last OPFOR turn, or blasts support on top of it's own units.
Hi Mr_Clark
That hit the nail on the head. You can't test this scenario on the AI.
I played it against Vesku, and after 3 turns he had found all of my hidden RPG's and killed them, even if they didn't fire at all (range set to 0).
The we added strelas to the scenario, and didn't helped at all.
The lesson is - do your reckon force meet enemies with choppers, and you don't have any light AA guns - GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE :eek: - you are doomed:alien:
Regards
Stonefire
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