View Full Version : To Game, or Not To Game. That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of righteous indignation
By refusing to take Paris (in a sea of trouble),
For by doing so ending it (French Resistance).
Or to let sleep, and by sleep prolong
The heartache, of knowing that one's death is so near,
And to be taken when at a time of an enemy's choosing,
Such death may be more profitable to him.
Please see the attached file and tell me. Should I apply the coup de grace and move into Paris, guaranteeing that the French will capitulate? Notice that the French forces adjacent to Paris have neither movement nor strength enough to retake the city, if I were to advance in either of two Korps and dig them in, supported by the artillery.
Or, should I let the Sitzkrieg come, let Paris fill up, and become overstacked with lots of reconstituted French troops, and then take it on the second turn after ceasefire, so that I can use the 175% Case Yellow offensive bonus to take out some other troublesome hotspots (Gibraltar, Malta, Middle East, Balkans)? If I take Paris now, I'll not only miss out on the Case Yellow offensive, but on the 10 turn continuation offensive, as well.
So...again. Should I "game the system" to take advantage of some events that would do me a lot of good in 1940, or should I stick a fork in him, and take Paris now?
In all honesty, I'd take Paris now.
I never try to take it prior to the Sitz, but when the opportunity presents itself, I don't hesitate. Consider also - this will give you time to rest and redeploy. Missing Case Yellow? True, but you're also good to go on the very turn the thaw hits, with full strength.
So what, you're having bouts of Shakespearean rhetoric lately? :p
Take Paris and be done with it.
disclaimer: this is an uninformed opinion, the author of which shall not be held liable for the accuracy or correctness of any information obtained from descriptions and contents provided. No heavy rifle squads were hurt during the production. Do not try this at home.
What you guys are neglecting to think about, or severely discounting, is that if I leave Paris until the Spring, I will basically suck the Allied replacements dry with reconstituting French units that will end up disappearing on the second turn after Sitzkrieg ends. This could run several thousand squads and assorted other equipment that will not be available to my opponent in the late game. If I take it now, then he will likely get some French units as reinforcements (those already on the reinforcement track), which will not disappear since the event to withdraw the surrendering French will not affect them. Then, other than the destroyed BEF, there will be nothing to absorb the next 25 turns of replacements and they will simply accumulate and be available to him in the mid and late game.
As far as resting goes, I can do that during Sitz as well. A 5 or 6 hex surround attack against an overstacked hex, as Paris would undoubtedly be, should take no more than one turn, barring a case of extremely poor luck. Meanwhile, the two offensive Theater Options that I would miss out on, if I take Paris now, would make going through the Balkans and ME much easier, than if I had to grind it them down with no TO's, higher available enemy replacements and more of his on-map units.
From a strictly utilitarian standpoint, playing the Cat to his Mouse, and toying with him for the next 25 turns would be the optimal choice. However, it would surely not be a *fun* game for him. Hence my dilemma.
I guess that this ties into the thread a while back on whether or not people "hold back" when playing. In effect, if I were to take Paris now, I would actually be "holding back". :nuts:
Well, you didn't ask what the best manipulation of the game's system would be, you asked what you should do. I agree - waiting would be the best thing from a game perspective. That's obvious to anyone who knows TOAW.
A couple points, however, James:
1> French units do not reconstitute. Therefore, the only thing you would be missing out on is the x turns of his units eating up most of the replacements. This is really not a huge deal. Certainly not a game breaker.
1a> Following 1 above, there are also no French units in the recon loop to worry about.
2> I don't see taking Paris now as holding back - I think it's apples and oranges. "Ask not whether I hold back; ask instead whether I milk the game system." :D That kind of thing is something that I would likely have done earlier in my TOAW career without much hesitation. Now, I wouldn't think of it. That's not right or wrong, that's just my take on it.
Which brings me to:
3> Enjoyment factor. You've nailed it here by mentioning this, and this is why I now play the way I do. Don't know that I can sum it up as sweetly as Brian has on occassion, but the only real reason any of us play this game *is* the fun factor. And rules-lawyering the hell out of the system so I could have 28 round turns, and squeeze a few thousand extra squads out of my opponent was something I was starting to get very good at. But I really did stop enjoying my playing time. Turns became a chore, and I experienced my first TOAW-burnout. Oddly enough, now that I refuse to play gamey, I've been at it for two years straight without any sign of burning out, and I play more than ever.
YMMV, of course, but I think that would be the deciding factor for me. The fun. Can you continue on with the Axis cause without doing this? Yes. (And no way in the nine circles of hell would the Germans pass up a free Paris. :D ) Your opponent would likely appreciate the choice, as if he might have to play another 200 turns of a 'not-fun' game, it might be a bit wearing. :)
1> French units do not reconstitute. Therefore, the only thing you would be missing out on is the x turns of his units eating up most of the replacements. This is really not a huge deal. Certainly not a game breaker.
1a> Following 1 above, there are also no French units in the recon loop to worry about.
By Jove! You're right on that! I just checked the scenario in the editor and none of them reconstitute! I was going on the assumption (and possibly poor memory) based on earlier versions where some of the French Corps reconstituted. Okay then. If there's no point, then I'll make la petite mort of my foe, a quickie. :laugh:
Ps. Yes, my French friends, I am aware of the terrible double entendre... :devious:
Ps. Yes, my French friends, I am aware of the terrible double entendre... :devious:Terrible? It all depends on whom you're going to experience it with :halo:
06 Maestro
14 Oct 05, 00:23
All is fare in love and war. But I wonder about war gaming; have we sunk this low? James, do the right thing, the righteous thing; march into Paris with no bloodshed and have the victory parade as the good Germans would have done.
James, do the right thing, the righteous thing; march into Paris with no bloodshed and have the victory parade as the good Germans would have done.
In a moral dilemma like this, if you need any form of moral guidance, just ask yourself....
"What would Hitler have done?"
(Apologies to any devout Christians out there)
06 Maestro
14 Oct 05, 11:05
In a moral dilemma like this, if you need any form of moral guidance, just ask yourself....
"What would Hitler have done?"
(Apologies to any devout Christians out there)
Exactly! LOL
(Laughs with Maestro and Felix :laugh: )
Glad to be of service to you for a change, James! A pleasant switch!
In a moral dilemma like this, if you need any form of moral guidance, just ask yourself....
"What would Hitler have done?"
(Apologies to any devout Christians out there)
You're right. I should be roleplaying this game, instead of gaming the game... ;)
Here's to answer the question of what I did.
http://www.geocities.com/iamjamiam/Arc.jpg
and
http://www.geocities.com/iamjamiam/Tower.jpg
Bdr.Mallette
14 Oct 05, 13:05
Hmmmmm,
Well, France was going to fall anyways.
I was very ill prepared for a FULL-OUT german BlitzKrieg. And my friends, it was a good one.
I was prodding with Allied forces and crept a little into Germany and I guess have suffered his wrath. Hmmmm, gives a good feel of how the game may proceed.
When he commits, he really commits and leaves back-doors open, however, I have absolutely nothing to confront his forces. Being the Allies after such a strong Blitz really sucks. Any MPs I do get during my turn are almost useless at this point.
I guess I am looking forward to the Russian campaign where your forces will be spread out a bit more and I will have some room to maneouvre. Bloody hell.
Good Blitz Man. I am very upset that my Divs that were dug-in with Arty support were run over and pushed back without even a battle.
Also, my Strategic bomber formations never stayed at rest, next turn they'd always be in re-org and had suffered great losses.
Any future plans will have to be far more in depth than mere prodding and waiting for Sitz!!!
Bdr.
Hmph!
:smoke:
Ahh! So you were the victim of that assault, hmm? None too pleasant from the sounds of it. See? There's another argument against trying to advance into Germany with the Allies. ;) (I love coaxing my opponents into trying this!) :D
Good Blitz Man. I am very upset that my Divs that were dug-in with Arty support were run over and pushed back without even a battle.
Yeah...at least I got to use the Invade Low Countries TO. That 70% shock penalty against your forces really goes a long way toward incapacitating your forces. Thanks for being such a good sport about the whole thing! :toast:
Bdr.Mallette
14 Oct 05, 14:56
Hey,
no prob.
I enjoyed seeing a different approach.
Thought for sure you may wait until the Sitz was up!
Well, no more dice rolling for me. Gambling has never been good for me.
Expect better defenses soon.... heheh! If I get the chance.
Bdr.
:o
Dicke Bertha
14 Oct 05, 19:18
Who's that good-looking guy in the middle of the last photo?
Dan Neely
14 Oct 05, 21:18
Ahh! So you were the victim of that assault, hmm? None too pleasant from the sounds of it. See? There's another argument against trying to advance into Germany with the Allies. ;) (I love coaxing my opponents into trying this!) :D
But winning as the allies *before* Russia enters the war is so much fun. (yes my opponent really was that green)
I've only manged that twice. Same reason. But then I'm a little embarassed - feel like I'm picking on the noobs... I console myself with the fact that when I notice the mismatch, I usually have written a novel's worth of advice by the end of the game. :D
Dan Neely
14 Oct 05, 22:16
I've only manged that twice. Same reason. But then I'm a little embarassed - feel like I'm picking on the noobs... I console myself with the fact that when I notice the mismatch, I usually have written a novel's worth of advice by the end of the game. :D
I ended up doing the same, although my help came to late and was initially counterproductive (I felt it flat out impossible that he couldn't grind me down and he was bled white before it sunk in). the only reason I managed to pull it off was that my opponent left rome essentially ungarrrisoned, and a few turns of bridge busting kept him from getting anything big enough to stop my landing from toppling Mussilini. His germans IIRC were largely covering the northern half of the italian front which was only a few hexes across the border at that point when the blow landed. If I didn't pcoket a few pz corps in that collapse he probably could've held my advance east of hte peninsula. As it was I just offed his balkan clients one at a time and then slugged north just east of the alps. Niether of us had enough troops for a real line extending to the russian border.
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.