View Full Version : Bir el Gubi, Nov 1941
The Purist
08 Oct 05, 14:23
Operation Crusader has begun and Rommel has been caught flat-footed, so much so that when three British armoured brigades arrived SE of Tobruk his panzers were looking the other way preparing for an assault on Tobruk. Fear not!!! Ariete is deployed along the allied line of advance. While the silly British dash off hither and yon looking for the even sillier Germans, the Bersagliari stand ready to repel the allied attacks and protect the desert flank of the vaunted Afrika Korps.
Can you, as the commander of 22nd Armoured Brigade push aside the valiant Italin defenders or will you too be defeated by the Italian gunners? Or, try your hand at the Italian defence and see if you can turn aside the allied attack and save the axis cause in Africa from early defeat.
British Tommy
08 Oct 05, 21:08
It sounds like a good battle mate! :)
Where can I find a copy? :whist:
Is it something you designed? e-mail it to me if you have one or post it.
The Purist
08 Oct 05, 22:17
Is it something you designed? e-mail it to me if you have one or post it.
British Tommy - I emailed a copy to you
2054172 - send me you email addy and I will send you a copy for play testing.
BTW,...I design for human v human and cannot vouch for how these play out in solitaire.
Ewwwww, this so much fun.
British Tommy
10 Oct 05, 09:09
Hi Purist,
2054172 sent me a PM suggesting we try this out and I agreed :)
Will keep you updated how the battle plays out. No idea what side I will end up with but looking forward to the battle! :smoke:
Well we are off and running, hopefully not away I am the Italians. :cheeky: Lets see what the British got. :smoke:
The Purist
15 Oct 05, 16:33
Well we are off and running, hopefully not away I am the Italians. :cheeky: Lets see what the British got. :smoke:
Bonne Chance!
ToxicShock
15 Oct 05, 17:27
I will voluteer to playtest it too.
The Purist
15 Oct 05, 23:25
I will voluteer to playtest it too.
Groovy. My dance card is full at the moment (nine games in hand) but two are about to end. In the meantime, I'll send you the file and you can tuck it away in your "scenario" folder in the CMAK game. Of course, if you have another player to begin with, by all means go ahead. They say it always better to have other people play test your creations,...less likely to be operating under you assumptions.
Cheers.
ToxicShock i will send you the turn I sent Bill and you can set up the Brits. :smoke:
SED ME AN E-Mail. to welden@sympatico.ca
ToxicShock
16 Oct 05, 10:11
ToxicShock i will send you the turn I sent Bill and you can set up the Brits. :smoke:
SED ME AN E-Mail. to welden@sympatico.ca
I have sent the email.
The Purist
16 Oct 05, 10:41
Excellent! Thanks much for the help
Hope there is no problems with gmail and zipped files. I think I finally got that down to a science. :smoke:
ToxicShock
16 Oct 05, 13:36
Hope there is no problems with gmail and zipped files. I think I finally got that down to a science. :smoke:
I am currently playing another match and my opponent has had no problem sending me unzipped text log files.
I will have a look at it in a few minutes and let you know if there is a snag or not.
ToxicShock
16 Oct 05, 13:36
Excellent! Thanks much for the help
No worries. Anything you me to watch out for?
The Purist
16 Oct 05, 16:25
No worries. Anything you need me to watch out for?
Not especially, just how the game flows and balance.
I have not viewed what the British have . It seems that Italians have alot of guys and personal surprises for the British. The jury is still out over all yet. :p
Maybe you can answer this question. Why can you not embark spotter of over a certian size of caliber? :confused:
British Tommy
17 Oct 05, 17:25
Not too worry old chap, my tankers stopped off for a cuppa and some muffins :)
Hmmm, my runner tells me those Italian chappies laid out some barbed wire around the flags. Very unsporting of them I must say :crosseye:
Wonder what a tank does to a trench load of Italian infantry? :devil:
To be continued! :smoke:
The Purist
17 Oct 05, 20:12
Maybe you can answer this question. Why can you not embark spotter of over a certian size of caliber? :confused:
That is a very good question and I have no clue. I am considering replacing the uni carriers with jeeps, if available.
While discussing this with ToxicShock who has also run into this problem. I have in other games also. :confused: I could not even embark them on a tank or HT. NOW THAT ONE BIG PHONE SET EVEN BUY WW2 STANDARDSs :smoke:
British Tommy
18 Oct 05, 10:22
Mabe it's the size of the batteries for the phone? :) If only Nokia were around then :laugh:
One thing I did miss was the briefings. I thought there might of been either just a main briefing or a just a few words :(
ToxicShock
18 Oct 05, 18:03
One thing I did miss was the briefings. I thought there might of been either just a main briefing or a just a few words :(
He just wants us to try it cold as in real life (tm). My observer(s) should be able to get a round off by the end of turn 30....
Evil, evil man that Purist is...
Take it easy on Purist, if it was not for him we may not of met. :cool: I do say he needs to give a little more of a briefing. :smoke:
The Purist
18 Oct 05, 23:37
Take it easy on Purist, if it was not for him we may not of met. :cool: I do say he needs to give a little more of a briefing. :smoke:
British: The Eyties are over thah! Go and shoot them up a bit would you. There's a good lad.
Italian: Mama mia,...eets za wholla Eenglayzee armee and it comes thisah way. Prepare to shoot them.
How was that :whist: :smoke:
British Tommy
19 Oct 05, 13:44
ROFL!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:
Ok lads, CHARGE!!!! :horse:
ToxicShock
19 Oct 05, 23:39
The RTC reports that the attack is preceding at a good clip.
Unfortunately, those damned arty FOs are marching all about the desert muttering about the lack of adequate transport.
The Italians are diggy their holes deeper now, and faster. :scream: This is quite a set up Purist. We are going to have to find out how many tons of steel Tony Antonini 's scape yard can handle. :laugh: :smoke:
I am back and waiting to deal with you British armour. Bring it 0n!!! :smoke:
Purist I am sending you a turn with my past word so you can see what's happening. :halo:
British Tommy
24 Oct 05, 10:09
Righto lads, the Italians have finished eating their spaghetti and meat balls..... let's go and give 'em indigestion! :devil:
Been using ' fast move ' since starting and I still got a long way to go yet! :confused:
You had better tell your men to break out the vino and choclates as it will awhile yet before contact is made :whist:
You must not be as good a commander as ToxicShock is. With him we have contacted and kicking ass, mostly his up to this point. :smoke:
British Tommy
25 Oct 05, 13:10
You must not be as good a commander as ToxicShock is. With him we have contacted and kicking ass, mostly his up to this point. :smoke:
Ah, but I haven't lost a single unit yet! :) Careful planning and movement has paid off so far :thumup:
Mind you, no plan stays intact when contact is made :rolleyes:
British Tommy
25 Oct 05, 13:13
And where's the turn? :eek:
Get cracking on it you slacker! :)
Going to ship you the turn ToxicShock and I are on you determine if it's bal :smoke: anced.
The Purist
29 Oct 05, 08:27
Going to ship you the turn ToxicShock and I are on you determine if it's bal :smoke: anced.
Tell me what happened. Did the Italians get overrun?
ToxicShock
29 Oct 05, 11:16
Tell me what happened. Did the Italians get overrun?
Picture boxcars on one side and snake-eyes on the other...each turn
The reverse has happened. see for your self. Maybe to many guns for the Italians. :smoke:
ToxicShock has packed it in. I do not blame him, it seems very unbalanced in favour of the Italains. He gave it a good try, but I doubt that anyone would get any further. We will see with British Tommys game. :smoke:
ToxicShock
29 Oct 05, 17:23
British AAR:
British side plaqued with many problems. First, units setup at LOD haphazardly making for plenty of work sorting out platoons. Same thing happened with the reinforcements. Second, Arty FOs were without any transport which made for 10 turns + of 'moving' into the high ground position on foot.
Next, this is the desert, right? Where the hell are all the wadis and dead spaces? Very little cover for AFVs while FOs touring the countryside.
Sent the absolutely useless Universal carriers forwrd as fast recon which exposed a few gun positions before succumbing to their deserved fate.
Then spent the rest of the match charging the guns only to be enfiladed by 20+ enemy AFVs and put to the flame in most cases.
<rant> One note that I would like to put out is what the hell was the Italians using for guns? Isn't a light gun supposed to be <= 47mm? And the AFVs taking out Crusaders at over 800m? What's up with that?</rant>
Wayne did not have much to do except for targeting...probably explained his braggadocio.
This playing was a three-legged howler. Needs a lot more work for balance or whatever you're trying to depict.
Most of the guns were 47mm or less I did have two 75mm How. One on each hill, but I beleive that 47mm will take out most of your tanks.
I feel that if you seem to be winning with the Italians any time is worth a small empty boast. Even if it's play testing. ;) :smoke:
The Purist
30 Oct 05, 01:06
British AAR:
British side plaqued with many problems. First, units setup at LOD haphazardly making for plenty of work sorting out platoons. Same thing happened with the reinforcements. Second, Arty FOs were without any transport which made for 10 turns + of 'moving' into the high ground position on foot.
FOs will get jeeps and I may add some terrain in the British set up area when I look at the map again. Setting up the platoons should have been relatively easy, I'm a bit confused on this one.
Next, this is the desert, right? Where the hell are all the wadis and dead spaces? Very little cover for AFVs while FOs touring the countryside.
Sorry, but this part of the desert was almost entirely flat rock desert with patches of sand with no real wadis around. I'll take a look to see if I can add some dips and dives. Historically, the British were surprised by the resistance when they tried to drive an armoured brigade through Ariete. Trouble was, the Italians do know how to fight and actually took the British in the flank with a counterattack by the divisions armour. Lack of dust had to do with the fact that heavy rains hit the desert the first night of the offensive and messed things up, explains some of the swampy ground (a bit of a fudge to work with the program) and soft sand.
Sent the absolutely useless Universal carriers forwrd as fast recon which exposed a few gun positions before succumbing to their deserved fate.
Those will be deleted.
Then spent the rest of the match charging the guns only to be enfiladed by 20+ enemy AFVs and put to the flame in most cases.
Sounds very historical actually (its 17 tanks). I thought the British might need a few extra tanks but wanted to see how things went with this first round of PT.
<rant> One note that I would like to put out is what the hell was the Italians using for guns? Isn't a light gun supposed to be <= 47mm? And the AFVs taking out Crusaders at over 800m? What's up with that?</rant>
The Italain infantry have 4 47mm AT , 2 37mm AT, 2 20mm AA and 2 75mm ART. The British are facing an infantry battalion supported by an AT battery, an AA section and an Artillery section, with some backing from divisional off map artillery
This playing was a three-legged howler. Needs a lot more work for balance or whatever you're trying to depict.
No doubt,...however, in the first playing, the Italians lost all their tanks in about 3 minutes and only knocked out about 4 Brits for their efforts. The British managed to knock most of the guns and get up on the nearer hill shooting up the defenders pretty well. The Italians manged a minor win.
The main problem for the British is they had no infantry available and only their CS tanks fire HE and smoke,...for rest of the lads its "boots and saddles".
Back to the drawing board for some tweaks.
British Tommy
01 Nov 05, 16:56
My plan in this battle is to keep my armour in a ' iron fist ' so that when contact is made with an Italian ATG, the tanks would pour on concentrated fire power and pin or knock out the gun.
Looking from the allied side of the map, I moved all my armour to my left and using the fast move order ( with some carriers acting as scouts ) I pushed everything from one hollow to the next ( small dips in the map ). What I didn't realise was, the Italian guns on my extreme right ( by the flag ) had a clear LOS almost across the map! :surprise:
So far I have lost about four tanks ( mostly to flank shots ) and two carriers.
By the look of things the Italians set up zone is way too big as there are guns scattered around the map. I badly need my artillery spotters to lay down smoke or some HE but they are still out there walking in the desert trying to get a decent LOS onto the flags! :mad:
I'm quite willing to continue this play test and send you the turns [ email me at bmillard7291@yahoo.co.uk ] so you can see for yourself what tactics I used.
Will update as the battle continues and maybe try to post some screen shots of the action :)
Hey, you have to remember that the Itallians are The Purist's babies, :love: he'll do whatever it takes to guarantee a Total Victory for them! :devil:
:laugh: :laugh:
British Tommy
01 Nov 05, 18:22
ROFL! :laugh:
Well I plan to spoil the show by grabbing at least one flag for my troubles :horse:
Just hope my opponent doesn't put too many holes in my armour! :whist:
The Purist
01 Nov 05, 18:23
Hey, you have to remember that the Itallians are The Purist's babies, :love: he'll do whatever it takes to guarantee a Total Victory for them! :devil:
:laugh: :laugh:
Naw, but this only the first run through...and besides,...I'm horribly pro-British.
...By the look of things the Italians set up zone is way too big as there are guns scattered around the map.
That is a possibly. I may need to delete the two 37mm AT and push the Italian set area back a bit. That is what PTs are all about.
I spread out some of the guns so artillery don't pick off a cluster of them . if you see how the rest of the troops are located it was due to the possibility of enemy infantry in use. Who would of thunk it was just armour? :smoke:
British Tommy
02 Nov 05, 19:40
Not very good at editing screenshots and uploading them but this one was taken on turn 7 when first contact was made :whist:
So have you had enough yet? :smoke:
British Tommy
03 Nov 05, 16:48
Never! :p
What you can't see in that screenshot are the ' go faster ' racing stripes painted on the sides of my armour :)
Given the order to the crews to stick it in 5th gear and just run over the nearest gun position! :devil:
BRING IT ON !!!!! :smoke:
He is bringing it on but not getting very far. At least my scrap dealers don't have to travel all over the place to collect thier wares. You got them all parked close together. :laugh: :smoke:
are we allowed to post these as non rated games? :smoke:
Yes you are- that is what the "non-rated" function is for.
Have you noticed I seem to be the only one who has used it ,maybe the guys don't know how and what it is for, :smoke:
British Tommy
06 Nov 05, 16:19
This has turned into a right old turkey shoot! :eek:
My plan of a tight armoured fist, fast moving from dip to dip badly fell apart when every Italian AT gun could see them! :cry: Goodness knows what would of happened if I had sent them in platoons down the centre of the map :surprise:
Tactics to win this as the British? Difficult to say as the scenario stands at the moment. I suppose you could have the CS tanks doing covering fire when the Italian AT guns pop up and fire but from what I've seen so far, the CS tanks chucking out HE at AT guns in trenches or in a dug in position hardly hit anything.
So the scenario might be historical but as a H2H game it has little enjoyment value. Might be much better against the AI.
British Tommy
06 Nov 05, 16:30
He is bringing it on but not getting very far. At least my scrap dealers don't have to travel all over the place to collect thier wares. You got them all parked close together. :laugh: :smoke:
As I stated earlier, the reason why my armour / scrap metal are so close together, when a AT gun pops up in front of them, the combined firepower from the tanks would either pin the gun or knock it out. When you got AT guns opening up from the front AND side, then you got yourself a scrapyard :whist:
I could of just sat there blasting away and getting picked off but instead I pushed on forward for as long as I could, hoping to at least knock out the AT guns directly in front of me and then turn my attention to the other guns.
I'm not finished with this battle yet! :)
This is not even that much fun from my side either. Historical? Did the Italians win? If not I need a time machine. :p Bob there is not a hope in you know where? There are about 20+ tanks coming in on your rear right, note the large dust cloud! This is not Santa and the Raindeer. :smoke: How many points was this set up for? :whist:
British Tommy
08 Nov 05, 14:45
Tell you what, give your gunners the ' hide ' order and a cover zone to the rear of them ( to stop them firing ). Now I will take on your armour with what I have left at the scrapyard! :laugh:
It should make the last turns more interesting ;)
The Purist
08 Nov 05, 19:04
Well, first of all, the scenario, as designed is based on a very historical situation and the OoB is based on what was available to each side. This is what play testing is all about.
I like to start out with a strong defense as it is far easier to take away defenders in order to balance a scenario than pair down an attacker.
Now, the changes already made to the master game file I have has deleted the two 37mm AT guns and increased the British armour strength to better represent the full strength of the brigade involved. At the same time the Italian armour has been reduced from 17 tanks to 14 to tank into account break downs and other non runners, and the arrival has been more randomized (reprsenting Italian operational difficulties). The Italian set-up area has been reduced somewhat to more represent the typical "boxes" used by both sides and, finally, I have reinstated the British ability to exit tanks for more VP, thus reducing the need to actually try and take the flags.
Even so,...some attempts to recreate an historical action may not actually be possible. :p
I for one take off my helmut and salute you :salute: for putting the time and effort into this. I do not have the time or the ability to do this and I am thankfull that you are able to use your skill and knowledge to enlighten us. :toast: I will tell you that not one of my infantry got into the battle. I did use a couple of machine guns to kill some crews for target practice. The Artillery spotters were never used on my side either. Your ideas sound fine also.... keep up the effort.
Again thank you, and do not get discouraged. :smoke:
British Tommy
09 Nov 05, 13:24
It is VERY difficult to make a historical scenario ( especially with the limited terrain tiles in CM ) and at the same time make it enjoyable as a AI game ( we all know about the problems with the AI ). It's even harder making a historical H2H scenario! :( On top of all this, the battle is in the desert ( harder yet again! ) so less places to hide your forces.
This battle will be unbalanced due to the fact that the British tanks did not have HE shells ( except for the few CS tanks ). So the British player has to accept that he will lose a good part of his armour during the battle. It might be a good idea to warn him in his briefing by explaining about the armour under his command and pointing out about the lack of HE and why. Also drop a hint about using his artillery spotters to lay down smoke.
Cutting back on the Italian set up area will help and adding some dips into the map ( which are out of LOS of the Italians ) will encourage the British player to keep advancing. Another thing which might help is limiting the AP shells each AT gun has. Maybe have more HE than AP shells.
What sort of exp levels do the Italian gun crews have? Making some of them green could also help.
You got a gem here Purist that just needs some polishing :)
Now get cracking on version two! :thumup:
:smoke: How long till the remake is ready? :smoke:
The Purist
09 Nov 05, 19:33
:smoke: How long till the remake is ready? :smoke:
Best give it until the weekend,...I do work for a living.
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.