OOB's and such OK for Start?

[Double Deuce]

Is everyone "agreeable" for the most part about the OOB's, Air assets etc being OK for use as is.

I'm trying to have the base OOB's established and then only have to tweak them once the patch comes out, which hopefully will be soon but only after extensive testing. :whist:

[Artur]

No.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

One thing I will almost assuredly do is remove the AirMobile unit form the Hungarian OOB and replace it with an MRB. The Hungarian force is only about 15,000 points total as opposed to the "almost" 100,000 Soviet point force.

Actually here are the "current" totals;

NATO(118,366)

United States (51,725)
West Germany (36,022)
Canada (30,619)
WARSAW PACT(135,866)

Soviet Union (94,419)
East Germany (25,574)
Hungary (15,873)

[Artur]

It is no use doing anything before the patch comes out IMHO, The points do NOT reflect the real value.

Then the patch will have to be experimented thoroughly. Then we can come back to this.

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

I have serious issues with NATO ADA, Recon, and Aviation unit organization. However Artur is right about the patch. Still we should do an internal scrub of the lists.

[mr_clark]

I second Artur.

And I want at least another tank batallion :P

[desh44]

was going over the air assets. Will there be observation aircraft available not listed under air assets? I noticed that the Nato have the OH-58 for spotting for the cobras. Will the WP have any MI-8's as spotters? Also would there be any spotter aircraft assigned to the units.

also will there be replacement for some of the aircraft lost....there don't seem to be a whole lot of air assets for essentially 2 divisions? would there be a certain number of spare aircraft for each group?

[Pannonicus]

I second Artur.

And I want at least another tank batallion :P

I agree with my fellow commanders. If Airmobile is removed, I want 2 MRB, so that my unit is a full MRR then. (or 2 TB, so it is a TR) :laugh:

[Double Deuce]

was going over the air assets. Will there be observation aircraft available not listed under air assets? I noticed that the Nato have the OH-58 for spotting for the cobras. Will the WP have any MI-8's as spotters? Also would there be any spotter aircraft assigned to the units.ALL air will be kept to a minimum to prevent imbalancing the campaign. The WP may receive spotter aircraft similar to what NATO has. I will be throwing these into my spreadsheets for comparision as well. Adjustments will come after the patch.

also will there be replacement for some of the aircraft lost....there don't seem to be a whole lot of air assets for essentially 2 divisions? would there be a certain number of spare aircraft for each group?No replacements. The majority of surviving aircraft are currently engaged in air air superiority missions and not ground support.

[Double Deuce]

I agree with my fellow commanders. If Airmobile is removed, I want 2 MRB, so that my unit is a full MRR then. (or 2 TB, so it is a TR) :laugh:Now theres an even tradeoff. :rolleyes:

Truthfully though another MRB is looking more likely. Once I have the new point values from the patch I can really begin making adjustments.

[Double Deuce]

I have serious issues with NATO ADA, Recon, and Aviation unit organization.Organization or content? Final organization will be at the Team Commander's discretion. One thing we do need to try and avoid is having Tactical Battles involving more than 1 vs 1 player. The enhanced security has wreaking havoc on the Korea Multiplayer battle I have going on. Hopefully the new "Basic Security" feature will alleviate this.

[Shortreengage]

And I want a CAV Squadron.

[shadowcougar]

about at least 1 cav squadron

[Waape]

For me the current OOB is OK - however, lets wait for the patch, and then revisit the question.

[Double Deuce]

Now that the patch is out, what are your comments about the balance? The latest point difference with the removal of the Hungarian AM unit and addition of an MRB in their place pushes the point difference to +12,000 for the WP. These points are based the OOB's in 2.0.

Also since thick smoke blocks Thermal sights the point difference will most likely be made up by upgrading some of the US forces with Thermals sights such as the M150's rather then adding more NATO troops/units.

[Double Deuce]

I agree with my fellow commanders. If Airmobile is removed, I want 2 MRB, so that my unit is a full MRR then. (or 2 TB, so it is a TR) :laugh:You have 2x Reinforced MRB's now.

[Artur]

The patch as improved things quite measurabely. (My lobbying worked :q ). The game engine works in a very correct way now as far as I can see. Blocking with smoke is not an effective way as the TI unit has to move 1-2 hexes forward and he can see again - like it was in RL
However the units with TI are still worth more than the points they cost I would have made them even more expensive.

I am fine with this as it will not get any better. I wonder what will be the NATO-WP win ratio at the Blitz games...

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

What ever happened to the Air/air defense thread? I still have very serious issues with that. The points arer best spent on divisional assets. Reorganization of US helos, Creation of a Ground CAV troop,relook on ADA etc.

[Shortreengage]

The patch as improved things quite measurabely. (My lobbying worked :q ). The game engine works in a very correct way now as far as I can see. Blocking with smoke is not an effective way as the TI unit has to move 1-2 hexes forward and he can see again - like it was in RL
However the units with TI are still worth more than the points they cost I would have made them even more expensive.

I am fine with this as it will not get any better. I wonder what will be the NATO-WP win ratio at the Blitz games...

Artur.
Would you like to find out?
Short Reengage!

[Double Deuce]

What ever happened to the Air/air defense thread? I still have very serious issues with that. The points arer best spent on divisional assets. Reorganization of US helos, Creation of a Ground CAV troop,relook on ADA etc.The Air and Air Defense threads are on the 2nd page and each side has their own thread. The original thread may have been separates out into those 2, I cannot remember for sure.

[Artur]

Would you like to find out?
Short Reengage!

LOL if that means what I think it means we can play, but let me first finish my secret project for the campaign contest :). BTW I red the thread about you at the Blitz. Are you that good? :).

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

You have 2x Reinforced MRB's now.

:) :) :) :) :)

[Shortreengage]

LOL if that means what I think it means we can play, but let me first finish my secret project for the campaign contest :). BTW I red the thread about you at the Blitz. Are you that good? :).

Artur.
Man, I had a secret campaign project too but it turned up as a scenario in 2.0! Might still go for it. Of course we should play. Still waiting for Czerpaks tourney and working on one of my own.

And no, I'm not that good. In fact I'm downright inept with no knowlage of military matters except my time as a cook in the army. I just have a good PR agent :) Whenever you're ready.

Shortreengage

[Artur]

Man, I had a secret campaign project too but it turned up as a scenario in 2.0! Might still go for it. Of course we should play. Still waiting for Czerpaks tourney and working on one of my own.


What kind of tourney are you working on? Where is your scenario?


And no, I'm not that good. In fact I'm downright inept with no knowlage of military matters except my time as a cook in the army.


LOL what is your favorite dish? ;).



I just have a good PR agent :) Whenever you're ready.
Shortreengage

I don't believe you :q. We'll play when the project is ready.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

At this point I think the following Ground Force OOB's are pretty well set.

NATO
West German
Canadian

WARSAW PACT
Hungarian
East German

The final tweaking to balance point totals will be using the US and Soviet units.

Comments?

[mr_clark]

I am quite confident with the East German OOB. A good and quite realistic OOB, thought I would love to have another company of T-55 in my tank bataillion :P

[Shortreengage]

What kind of tourney are you working on? Where is your scenario?



LOL what is your favorite dish? ;).




I don't believe you :q. We'll play when the project is ready.

Artur.
Peninsular Shield. Iraq vs Saudi Arabia, Gulf States and the US(if they last that long) People would play different sectors with one battle influencing the next. Home researched OOBs. I am presently gaming it out at the operational level with my old copy of Gulf Strike (boardgame)

Campaign was in Honduras in the 80s as I have some excellent maps to copy.


LOL what is your favorite dish? ;
Goulash! made from Paprika,garlic and a couple of dead Hungarian Grenadiers! :laugh:



I don't believe you :q. We'll play when the project is ready.
:devious: Why not? Of course we'll play. How many poits will you give me? :whist:

Shortreengage

[Pannonicus]

LOL what is your favorite dish? ;
Goulash! made from Paprika,garlic and a couple of dead Hungarian Grenadiers! :laugh:
Shortreengage

I love US BBQ... :devious:

[Double Deuce]

Am I going to have to move this to the Off Topic area? :D

[Shortreengage]

Am I going to have to move this to the Off Topic area? :D
No, just having a little fun and working out this weekend's menu.

OTOH were do we stand points-wise vis a vis the WP? I have some ideas.

[Double Deuce]

Adding the HAWKS, 20 Stingers along with the Hinds brought the Air and ADA assets up to just about equal points (give or take a couple).

NATO is still short about 7,500 points in the ground force department. I know there was mention of a US Cav Troop and this runs about 8,500 points. IF it is requested by the NATO team and this additin brings the NATO points over the WP point total I will revise the WP units as needed to bring them up to balance.

WP Team - If I add the Cav Troop to NATO forces, the WP will need to find about 1000 points of upgraded equipment or additional forces. Any initial requests?

[Artur]

I would leave that 7500 points difference. Frankly and sincerely. TI units are still worth more thant they are priced for. It is very much beeter than it was before 2.0 but still not perfect :).. If we have to spend additional 1000 pts I would buy more Air Defense.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Actually the points I posted earlier today were not accurate. I forgot to recalculate/update the Soviet tank costs. The point difference is only about 2,200 in favor of the WP and not 7,500.

[mr_clark]

So they can get another infantry company and that's that :P

Besides I totally agree to Artur. The more I look at it the stranger some effects of the TI equipment are, thought WinMBT 2.0 did some good changes.
What still has me wondering is how TI vehicles can see through hexes cluttered by burning vehicles. I don't see a logic in that. They are surely not colder then live vehicles, and if the TI equipped units can "look around them" why can't a "normal" tank? I mean after all one hex is 50 meters and a tank apporximately only covers a quarter of that... (sounds like something one might put to notice of the SPCAMO guys... maybe I'll tray when I find the time :P)

[Shortreengage]

So they can get another infantry company and that's that :P

Besides I totally agree to Artur. The more I look at it the stranger some effects of the TI equipment are, thought WinMBT 2.0 did some good changes.
What still has me wondering is how TI vehicles can see through hexes cluttered by burning vehicles. I don't see a logic in that. They are surely not colder then live vehicles, and if the TI equipped units can "look around them" why can't a "normal" tank? I mean after all one hex is 50 meters and a tank apporximately only covers a quarter of that... (sounds like something one might put to notice of the SPCAMO guys... maybe I'll tray when I find the time :P)

1) We'll get what we get.

[Shortreengage]

Actually the points I posted earlier today were not accurate. I forgot to recalculate/update the Soviet tank costs. The point difference is only about 2,200 in favor of the WP and not 7,500.
Did you take into account the Hind's Thermals or are they using that version?

[Double Deuce]

Did you take into account the Hind's Thermals or are they using that version?The non-thermaled ones (Unit ID # 366) = 231 points each.

[Double Deuce]

With the Operational Map now complete. I would like to get everyone who has a little time to chime in on the OOB discussions again. All team mmebrs should make sure thye have access othe secure areas as we will begin using them more frequently very shortly.

Now that the Operational Map is finished I can proceed with designating start areas and finish writing up the Operations Orders for each side.

[Pannonicus]

I will be off until 21 Nov, Monday. Please hold until that if possible!

[Shortreengage]

With the Operational Map now complete. I would like to get everyone who has a little time to chime in on the OOB discussions again. All team mmebrs should make sure thye have access othe secure areas as we will begin using them more frequently very shortly.

Now that the Operational Map is finished I can proceed with designating start areas and finish writing up the Operations Orders for each side.
I have some OOB issues. I'll sbmit my request for changes/realignment soon. Just 1 question. What model are the OH58s?

[Double Deuce]

In the next day or so I am going to open the SECURE OOB sections for each team. In there we need to regroup units into what the commanders will start with. For example, if the US players want to cross attach units from their Mech Battalions to Armor Battalions to create Company Teams among the Battalions they can do it at that time. Lets say the US players wants to swap a Mech Platoon with a Tank Platoon between 2 of of his Companies.

BASE ORGANIZATION started like this;

......A Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x13 M2A1
.........x9 Dragon Team

......B Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x14 M1 Abrams (#20)

NEW ORGANZATION would look like this;

......A Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x7 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x9 M2A1
.........x6 Dragon Team
.........x4 M1 Abrams (#20)

......B Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 M1 Abrams (#20)
.........x3 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x4 M2A1
.........x3 Dragon Team

[Shortreengage]

How often during the game will we be able to change cross attachments?

[Shortreengage]

REQUESTED ALLOCATION OF SURPLUS POINTS AND REALIGNMENT OF FORCES.

1) NATO surplus: 2200

2) Removal of 3 disorganised Stinger sections at Battalion level. Gain: 552

3) Reorganize US rotary wing assets:

Delete 4 OH58A . Gain 268

Delete 13 AH1S. Gain 3029

Total exess: 2200

Stingers.........552
OH58A...........268
AH1S...........3029
----------------
Total............6049

ADD Divisional Air Cavalry troop:

6 OH58D......1326
4 AH1S...........932
--------------------
2258

ADD Attack Helicopter Company:

4 OH58A.........268
7 AH1/TOW...3339
---------------------------
Total.............3607

AIRCAVTRP...2258
ATKLHELCO..3607
---------------------------
5865

That leaves a small surplus and creates Two J series units. Small points can be used to create an Airborne Command Element AKA Air Battle Captain. Probobly a Company HQ and a UH1 or two. Thoughts?

Also have an Idea to create a DIVCAV Troop by tightening the belt elsewhere.

[Artur]

I object. You want Cobras with tow and TI eh? What is the big deal if you win with that :devious: ?

LOL be a MAN Mr Shortreengage :devil: :rolleyes: :whist:

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

I object. You want Cobras with tow and TI eh? What is the big deal if you win with that :devious: ?

LOL be a MAN Mr Shortreengage :devil: :rolleyes: :whist:

Artur.
Objection noted and filed. Label file: GAVNO :p Nobody flies rocket only armed Choppers unless they're hunting Juan Valdez and his Coffee/Cocaine smuggling donkey. Don't get me started on your orbat. :nuts:

You're scared of 7 :eek: TOW Cobras? You have the Best part of 2 Divisions :surprise:

LOL Take it a MAN Artur :D


PS What about that game :devil:

[Double Deuce]

How often during the game will we be able to change cross attachments?Any time during movement BUT the units will have to be moved to the gaining location. If they are in the same Operational Hex, the changes will only need to be made by updating the appropriate OOB thread. For example if you wanted to swap unit between units 2 hexes apart, you would need to create the dispatched units into their own unit (in COCAT and on the OOB threads) and move them to the new locations.

[Pannonicus]

I also object to the Cobras. NATO already has the technical edge, why to make it even sharper? Also, there is already quite unhistoric the scenario, as WP would have had much greater advantage in numbers.

[Double Deuce]

I also object to the Cobras. NATO already has the technical edge, why to make it even sharper? Also, there is already quite unhistoric the scenario, as WP would have had much greater advantage in numbers.At the beginning of the war perhaps, maybe not after 6 months of fighting which is where we are starting. This will be a Meeting Engagement to fill a void in the frontlines (story will follow soon).

In any event, I went through each posted OOB and the WinSPMBT Editor (2.51) and reverified all the "points" in my trusty spreadsheets to make sure I had all the calculations, # of units and points codedcorrectly. I doublechecked the TI units and which ones they were, and checked the ADA stuff as well. This is where we are at;

NATO FORCE POINTS (150,625)
United States (65,544)
West German (38,873)
Canadian (36,481)
Air and Air Defense Assets (9,727)

WARSAW PACT FORCE POINTS (150,557)
Soviet Union (95,691)
East Germany (27,985)
Hungary (19,539)
Air and Air Defense Assets (7,342)

Basically the force points are within 100 now so very little if any changes will be made from this point forward.

Also remember, NO one side has to advance against a defender in the scenario. BOTH are moving to contact. We could spend years debating the RL comparisions BUT the only way to try and balance this is to use what CAMO gave us based on the game's design. For that reason I will go with the current point balance measurement.

[Shortreengage]

Where did the surplus go? I did'nt order new typewriters for the REAR. What's this? 8000 pairs of Oakleys 2300 points !?!?

But seriously, I'm not after the Thermal sights. It's the TOWs that I want and should have. On AH1Q or F models with passive sights. Clearly a glitch in the OOBs.

As for a technical advantage. What about all those 125mm guns? And if you want to talk ATGMs.... Dragon?????? And they are the lucky ones. The poor Canucks are stuck with RRs and LAWs!

[Artur]

As for a technical advantage. What about all those 125mm guns? And if you want to talk ATGMs.... Dragon?????? And they are the lucky ones. The poor Canucks are stuck with RRs and LAWs!

Psst... Mr Shortreengage...
I found some 26XM150s in the Canadian OOB. That is quite a LOT of TOWs :D
And all M150s have TI as well :rolleyes: .

Cheer up :devious: .

Artur.

[Pergite]

Psst... Mr Shortreengage...
I found some 26XM150s in the Canadian OOB. That is quite a LOT of TOWs :D
And all M150s have TI as well :rolleyes: .

Last time I checked there where also a fair number of HOT´s in the Bundewehr OOB, so its no need to worry.

Btw, what are we actually waiting for? I have been out of touch with the forum for a while.

[Artur]

Btw, what are we actually waiting for?



For the unconditional surrender of the NATO :devil: .

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

I think the aim is a fair question. If it is simply about annihilation, then lets not even start it. If there is a strategic objective, that worth the battle. But since there is no supply simulation, no OMG to break into rear areas and force surrender, there is no chance for a smart strategic victory.
So what is the aim of the campaign?

[Artur]

I think the aim is a fair question. If it is simply about annihilation, then lets not even start it. If there is a strategic objective, that worth the battle. But since there is no supply simulation, no OMG to break into rear areas and force surrender, there is no chance for a smart strategic victory.
So what is the aim of the campaign?

If I recall right, DD has a story for the campaign. I guess we will get objectives when that story is told.

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

I think the aim is a fair question. If it is simply about annihilation, then lets not even start it. If there is a strategic objective, that worth the battle. But since there is no supply simulation, no OMG to break into rear areas and force surrender, there is no chance for a smart strategic victory.
So what is the aim of the campaign?
OMG????? What's an OMG? :nervous:

[Shortreengage]

If I recall right, DD has a story for the campaign. I guess we will get objectives when that story is told.

Artur.
Hey Artur, you still in on the team tourney at the blitz?
SR

[Shortreengage]

[QUOTE=Pergite]Last time I checked there where also a fair number of HOT´s in the Bundewehr OOB, so its no need to worry.

And considerable numbers of SPANDRELs in the 2 AT BNs that should be AT Guns.

[Shortreengage]

Psst... Mr Shortreengage...
I found some 26XM150s in the Canadian OOB. That is quite a LOT of TOWs :D
And all M150s have TI as well :rolleyes: .

Cheer up :devious: .

Artur.
The equivelant of one of your AT BNs. No? Except for the TI.
I'm very Cheerful :laugh:

[Artur]

Hey Artur, you still in on the team tourney at the blitz?
SR

No, had to drop out :(.

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

No, had to drop out :(.

Artur.
Sorry to hear that.

[mr_clark]

OMG????? What's an OMG? :nervous:
Oh my gawd!

Operational Mobile Group.

An Complete unit planned to use breaches created by frontal assaults to move into the enemy'S rear.

Depending on the size of the actual force an OMG can be as large as a Company (for a regiment) or a Division or Corps for an Army, or Front.

[Shortreengage]

Oh my gawd!

Operational Mobile Group.

An Complete unit planned to use breaches created by frontal assaults to move into the enemy'S rear.

Depending on the size of the actual force an OMG can be as large as a Company (for a regiment) or a Division or Corps for an Army, or Front.
WoW! :shock: I had no Idea :confused: Do tell me more :) While you're at it you can explain the differance between A FD and a AG and the role of the U/I Corps in the Byelorussian Military District :halo:

[mr_clark]

WoW! :shock: I had no Idea :confused: Do tell me more :) While you're at it you can explain the differance between A FD and a AG and the role of the U/I Corps in the Byelorussian Military District :halo:
No I can't. :bandit:

I'll try ask someone who knows more about it and then maybe come back to you :smoke:

[Double Deuce]

I think the aim is a fair question. If it is simply about annihilation, then lets not even start it. If there is a strategic objective, that worth the battle. There will be specific objectives for each side to obtain.

But since there is no supply simulation, no OMG to break into rear areas and force surrender, there is no chance for a smart strategic victory.
So what is the aim of the campaign?There will be supply to some extent. This will most likely be done with the preferences screen OR by using the CLONE feature in the editor when I set up battles)

There will NOT be a supply system for replacements though because of the way I do casualty tracking (i.e. damaged units get back to full personnel at the start of each operational turn).

[Double Deuce]

Btw, what are we actually waiting for? I have been out of touch with the forum for a while.I am waiting for the upgraded COCAT version. All is ready except they are tracking/working on a bug that causies the program to crash when editing REDForce units. It showed up after recoding to allow for the 91 unit icons. All the icons are done and the txt files are ready as well. I will be uploading them soon BUT they are useless without the fixed COCAT *.exe file allowing for the additional icons.

ALSO, the actual primary COCAT Map is ready and available for DL. If you can DL and print it out we could sort of get started with deployment planning.

[Double Deuce]

Where did the surplus go? I did'nt order new typewriters for the REAR. What's this? 8000 pairs of Oakleys 2300 points !?!? When I did the initial point calculations I left out the ADA and air stuff. NATO has a considerable "point" advantage in the ADA and Fixed Wing areas.

But seriously, I'm not after the Thermal sights. It's the TOWs that I want and should have. On AH1Q or F models with passive sights. Clearly a glitch in the OOBs. Since the Hind-D's have missiles, its only fair that the Cobra's get them as well and so I will be adding it as a package option to the NON-TI Cobra units.

So just to clarify, NATO will NOT get more helo's or have TI ones available, just an additional weapons package to select from.

[Artur]

When I did the initial point calculations I left out the ADA and air stuff. NATO has a considerable "point" advantage in the ADA and Fixed Wing areas.

Since the Hind-D's have missiles, its only fair that the Cobra's get them as well and so I will be adding it as a package option to the NON-TI Cobra units.

So just to clarify, NATO will NOT get more helo's or have TI ones available, just an additional weapons package to select from.

I'd rather left out the missiles from Mi24 packages than giving TOW to the Cobras. Or let us have a better ATGM then Fleytas but without TI.

Artur.