Hungarian Air Mobile- counter unit

[Double Deuce]

We'll use this thread to discuss a counter unit to be aded to the NATO OOB to offset the Hungarian Air Mobile unit. For starters it will need to be equivilent in size and 'Purchase Points' to the Hungarian one.

At initial look it seems only the US and Canadians have this capacity. Both have an Air Mobile Company for about the same points (if using the Huey equipped unit for the US).

[Pergite]

I looked at the Hun OOB and I guess that the 2nd Avn Co is the unit we are talking about right? In that case, what does they ride around in or are they paras? Pannonicus has in his own list written 9xHip-8 (are they included in the offical OOB?) and those pack quite alot of punch compared to the Hueys. On the other hand, their sodiers wont stand a chance against anything armoured, we would at least have dragons.

How are air travel going to be restricted in the campaign?
Is it OK for the enemy to attach elements of that coy out on other units and give the battalions an airmobile platoon (to allow gamey tactics)?


I dont know what our overall strategy is. Helos are nice, but in what way should we use them? They are higly mobile so they could act QRF to fix holes in the frontline. But they really are a offensive tool, and in such case I would belive that we would get alot more quality troops if we choose a para coy.
I am not sure how air defence rules and such implies on them, but it shouldnt be anything different from helo movement.

[Double Deuce]

Gamey tactics is one of my concerns. Actually the WP guys asked for a ground unit instead of the helo unit, of course the request was for a full MRB. :laugh:

[Temujin]

We'll use this thread to discuss a counter unit to be aded to the NATO OOB to offset the Hungarian Air Mobile unit. For starters it will need to be equivilent in size and 'Purchase Points' to the Hungarian one.

At initial look it seems only the US and Canadians have this capacity. Both have an Air Mobile Company for about the same points (if using the Huey equipped unit for the US).
Does that mean you want us to pick an airmobile force as a counter, or can it be anything of the same size and purchase points?

This may be a way to beef up the Canadians a bit in regards to their anti armour capabilities. The surely have an infantry structure that could deal with an offensive manouvre by the hungarian unit effectively and independently, while Germany and the US have better armour capabilities. Whatever it is, it seems fair the Canadians should get it.

[Double Deuce]

Does that mean you want us to pick an airmobile force as a counter, or can it be anything of the same size and purchase points?

This may be a way to beef up the Canadians a bit in regards to their anti armour capabilities. The surely have an infantry structure that could deal with an offensive manouvre by the hungarian unit effectively and independently, while Germany and the US have better armour capabilities. Whatever it is, it seems fair the Canadians should get it.No just wanted to mention it as food for thought. I would rather remove the Hungarian air unit and give them another ground unit, maybe not a full MRB though.

Can you find a decent unit for the Canuks at about 1350 points? Thats what the Hungarian unit costs.

[Temujin]

No just wanted to mention it as food for thought. I would rather remove the Hungarian air unit and give them another ground unit, maybe not a full MRB though.

Can you find a decent unit for the Canuks at about 1350 points? Thats what the Hungarian unit costs.
Well the US has the perfect option, but they are already probably our heaviest hitting side, if the germans had something it would have to be a ad-hoc type formation, the Canadians also have a premade airmobile force, but they really need a little help with their anti-tank capabilities as they have no tanks with a 120mm.

So if ad-hoc is ok, to give the canadians a little extra in the anti tank element they could have

4xJeep TOW

and for airmobile

4xHueys (whatever their version is called)
4xheavy helo (the naval variant)
1x SF Jeep platoon

That way they could attach some of their infantry elements to make up a companysized airmob force, and use the Jeep TOW unit to give them a little more hitting power against the heavier armoured WP stuff.

If you could do that, then we probably wouldnt need to cross attach any/many units from other countries oob to make up for the anti-armour shortfall the canadians seem to have.

Cost is roughly 1400 though, you did say 'at about 1350 points'.

Just an idea, i am sure they will have thier own ideas on it.

[Spark Vark]

Well the US has the perfect option, but they are already probably our heaviest hitting side, if the germans had something it would have to be a ad-hoc type formation, the Canadians also have a premade airmobile force, but they really need a little help with their anti-tank capabilities as they have no tanks with a 120mm.

So if ad-hoc is ok, to give the canadians a little extra in the anti tank element they could have

4xJeep TOW

and for airmobile

4xHueys (whatever their version is called)
4xheavy helo (the naval variant)
1x SF Jeep platoon

That way they could attach some of their infantry elements to make up a companysized airmob force, and use the Jeep TOW unit to give them a little more hitting power against the heavier armoured WP stuff.

If you could do that, then we probably wouldnt need to cross attach any/many units from other countries oob to make up for the anti-armour shortfall the canadians seem to have.

Cost is roughly 1400 though, you did say 'at about 1350 points'.

Just an idea, i am sure they will have thier own ideas on it.


Speaking as one of the Canadian players, I don't know that we really need more TOW platforms. While it's true that our tanks are limited to 105mm, that weapon is capable of performing pretty well against everything except the T-80. Also, if you look at the TO&E you'll notice that each infantry battalion has 12(!) M150 TOW vehicles to provide it with some good anti-armor punch. Thus, I don't think that 4 extra TOW jeeps would really add all that much extra capability. If you want to add some extra anti-armor capability to us, the best place to do it would be with man-portable ATGMs (Dragon or whatever the Canadians use), though I don't know whether it would be historically correct to attach such units to our battalions or not.

An airmobile force would be a better option, though I don't have the time right now to see how much that would cost in terms of points. Alternatively, the best way I can think of to balance the Hungarian helos out would be to add a bunch of mobile SAM/AA guns to the NATO forces :devil: , though that might be a little too unbalanced.

That's my view on the issue, but I can't claim to speak for the other two Canadian players, so I hope they'll chime in as well.

[Pergite]

Yes, an air mobile force would also offer alot to the operational level. It can be used to sieze vital positions, river crossings etc in front of our advance, when it eventually comes :) or raid enemey rear area formations.


More air defence units wouldnt be that bad either. They are IRL usually deployed to protect bn force units. Since our battles probably will be smaller than that, I guess some of our tropps will have to preform without any aircover, or a just a couple of stingers at the most.

I wouldnt mind having some more Rolands or Gepards so that we wouldnt need to worry about those puny Fitters and Floggers ruining our days.

[Shortreengage]

I agree that ADA for NATO is completely inadequate. I'make an analysis and get back with everyone. One problem is that HAWK BNs are owned by Corps even though they provide protection for the Divisions.

[Pergite]

I agree that ADA for NATO is completely inadequate. I'make an analysis and get back with everyone. One problem is that HAWK BNs are owned by Corps even though they provide protection for the Divisions.

No, I dont want any cumbersume HAWK units. Give me something tracked or even wheeled that can keep up and roll with the punches. Unless the HAWK´s can act on the operational game level and interdict any air support coming our way.

[Temujin]

Yeah we need something that can be moved, everything else is motorized/mechanized, wouldn't want to have to worry about moving outside our aircover if we couldn't redeploy SAM units.

[dita]

A few things.

For air defence, something mobile is a must. Hawk is good, but something that can keep pace with the battle is of much more importance. This depends upon the overall style of campaign we intend to play. If primaraly defensive, then attacking in a quick sharp punch after the intial pact onslaught, then static air defences would be more useful at first, but advance still must be covered by mobile air.

Don`t underestimate the power of small arms fire against helos, they quickly make them rout off map. However, I think the rules for engaging air will be changed in the next patch, something worth noting.

Spark, the small quick battle I have played (some notes in the training forum) showed that the lep seems to quite vunerable. Lost some to shots by T55 hits. This is frontal armor hits. Luck maybe. Against the T72 it struggled. Now I`ve seen that the M150 won`t be the improved TOW version (which is the one I Used) it think the siuation is looking a bit more scarey than I first thought :cry:

Man portable ATGMs is an idea, but lack the ammo. I expect lots of armour to come our way. How about man ATGMS loaded into jeeps? Though, I would perhaps move towards the TOW jeeps. I light of what i`ve briefly seen, the need for some more anti armour is certainly requirement.

To counter the air, I would agree that some sort of "special forces" and helo tranport to enable the attachment of more troops. i`ll look further into the OOB for the canadians.

[Spark Vark]

Spark, the small quick battle I have played (some notes in the training forum) showed that the lep seems to quite vunerable. Lost some to shots by T55 hits. This is frontal armor hits. Luck maybe. Against the T72 it struggled. Now I`ve seen that the M150 won`t be the improved TOW version (which is the one I Used) it think the siuation is looking a bit more scarey than I first thought :cry:

Man portable ATGMs is an idea, but lack the ammo. I expect lots of armour to come our way. How about man ATGMS loaded into jeeps? Though, I would perhaps move towards the TOW jeeps. I light of what i`ve briefly seen, the need for some more anti armour is certainly requirement.


I agree Dita. Our force is going to be considerably weaker than I first thought without those upgraded M150s. Re the TOW jeeps, while they do carry more ammo than man portable ATGMs, they are more visible to the enemy when moving around, firing, etc. I find the man portable versions easier to hide and spring ambushes with, and are harder to spot even after firing. If we do choose to go this route, however, I think putting them in vehicles would be a must. Maybe we can wrangle some ammo trucks to give them a reload? :)

As for what everyone else has said, I agree that any air defenses we add must be mobile.

[Shortreengage]

Does anyone think that the WP is only going to move Hungarian Paratroopers? Those snivilling..GENTLEMEN would have us believe so.

9 Mi-8s can lift 288 men in one lift. Don't forget that the Mi-24 series of gunship is not a specialist helicopter like the PAH1.It is more of a generalist. Each one carries 8 men.

They could easilly lift a second echelon MRB(as is doctrine) in one chalk.

Add that to the fact that The Mi-8 carries an impressive armament of rockets. Taking advantage of the game mechanics they could cause serious problems.

I have the following suggestions as a solution:


A good reaction force would be a US Air Cavalry troop.

In 1984 the US Army was in a state of transition from the ROAD(Reorganisation Of the Army Division) organisation to the DIV86 organization.

These organisations were known as H-series(ROAD) and J-series(DIV86).

I will outline the TOEs.

Unit H-series..... J-series

OH58 9 ..... 6

AH1F 9 ..... 4

UH1D 6 ..... 0

INF PLT 1 ...... 0


Cost 2637*..... 1100

* This cost could be reduced to 1527 if 6 AH1Fs were transfered from the The Attack Helicopter company. This would reduce the ATK HEL CO/PLT to it's historical 4 OH58s and 7 AH1s. All they did with the ATK Helo units was change the names of unit s from company to platoon etc.

I suggest something a bit different.

Adopt the J-series AIRCAV Troop and replace the ATK HELO Company with AH1/TOW.

That would give us: AIRCAV/ ATK HELO / total

OH58 6/ 4 / 10

AH1F 4 / 0/ 4

AH1/TOW 0/ 7/ 7

Cost 1100/ 2788/ 3888

Current cost of present US Helos: 3995
Cost of proposed force: 3888

Difference: -107(surplus)

Under DIV86 the Aviation BDE contained an ASSAULT HELO Company of 15 UH1/UH60.

Alternately we could provide the lift of Infantry with some of these. We would'nt see Heavy lift CH47s until Corps level. I prefer the option listed above with the possible addition of a plt of UH1Ds.

Comments?

They wanted an Independant MRB? Ha! Let them take one of their second echelon BNs and use it for thier Foreward Detachment.

[Shortreengage]

Yeah we need something that can be moved, everything else is motorized/mechanized, wouldn't want to have to worry about moving outside our aircover if we couldn't redeploy SAM units.


Yes you have exellent ADA so why don't you take some more?

OTH The US Chapperal is little more than an expensive bottle rocket. And the Canucks don't even have that. Just a few sling shots. Hence my suggestion. The WP has some nasty ADA and plenty of it. Still looking in to it.

[Temujin]

Yes you have exellent ADA so why don't you take some more?

OTH The US Chapperal is little more than an expensive bottle rocket. And the Canucks don't even have that. Just a few sling shots. Hence my suggestion. The WP has some nasty ADA and plenty of it. Still looking in to it.

They cost a lot though, i would agree if this is a seperate issue to the hungarian counter, and certainly needs more consideration.

[Spark Vark]

I guess the biggest question we need to ask in regards to the "counter unit" is this: are we more concerned with duplicating their unique capability (getting our own airmobile force), defeating their unique capability, or getting some units of equivalent cost that will provide a unique benefit to us?

Obviously, some of the units/combinations we have considered can handle more than one of the above requirements, but I think we need to decide which of those are MOST important to us, and that will give us more direction in determining the best items to request.

Honestly, I'd almost be in favor of trading those points to improve one of the units we already have (e.g. getting the more capable version of the Canadian M150). That's just my idea though. Anyway, just something to think about.

[Temujin]

I guess the biggest question we need to ask in regards to the "counter unit" is this: are we more concerned with duplicating their unique capability (getting our own airmobile force), defeating their unique capability, or getting some units of equivalent cost that will provide a unique benefit to us?

Obviously, some of the units/combinations we have considered can handle more than one of the above requirements, but I think we need to decide which of those are MOST important to us, and that will give us more direction in determining the best items to request.

Honestly, I'd almost be in favor of trading those points to improve one of the units we already have (e.g. getting the more capable version of the Canadian M150). That's just my idea though. Anyway, just something to think about.

Yes thats true, one thing to consider is the lift capability an helos will give us in general, and the fact they have airlift capabilities that may be used in tasks other than the airmob unit it is with. Also, once we have it in our list, will we be able to get replacement helo's, if we don't have em in the list, we may never get them.

So i think they are important, but not the only consideration to have.

[Spark Vark]

Yes thats true, one thing to consider is the lift capability an helos will give us in general, and the fact they have airlift capabilities that may be used in tasks other than the airmob unit it is with. Also, once we have it in our list, will we be able to get replacement helo's, if we don't have em in the list, we may never get them.

So i think they are important, but not the only consideration to have.

Very true. To be perfectly honest, I haven't used airmobile forces in SP all that much, so I'm probably not in the best position to judge how useful they will be.

In any case, judging from what DD said today, it looks like we're in for some major force adjustments, since our side seems to be short by a LOT of points compared to our opponents. Even with cost adjustments in version 1.2, I'm sure that all of our forces will be getting beefed up a bit. That may provide us with a different perspective on how we want to handle the airmobile question.

[shadowcougar]

are best used at plugging holes in our lines or taking important positions in the attack. They are somewhat hard to used as to the way hekos act when damaged.

[Spark Vark]

are best used at plugging holes in our lines or taking important positions in the attack. They are somewhat hard to used as to the way hekos act when damaged.

I was thinking that as well. Seems like it could be especially problematic for us having an airmobile unit given how strong WP air defenses can be.

[Shortreengage]

But if used to counter his airmobile they will be weak.