View Full Version : West German Command Organization
Double Deuce
29 Aug 05, 13:11
West German Commanders/players, please discuss the West German Force Organization here. Basically who will command/control what units.
35th PanzerGrenadier Brigade/12th Panzer Division
...HQ/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x4 M577A2 C2V (US OOB)
...35th Rec Co/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x12 SpPz Luchs A1
......x3 Fuchs
...35th Eng Co/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x10 Pioneers
......x1 Stinger Team
......x13 Fuchs
......x3 Milan
......x4 Pionierpanzer 1
...35th ADA Co/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x4 Gepard A1
......x4 Roland
...355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x2 Scouts
......x2 Fuchs
......1 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x1 KanJagdPz VB
.........x6 M109G
.........x6 M548 Munitions
......2 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x1 KanJagdPz VB
.........x6 M109G
.........x6 M548 Munitions
......3 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x1 KanJagdPz VB
.........x6 M110A2
.........x6 M548 Munitions
...351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x10 Jaeger
......x1 Stinger Team
......x3 Milan
......x3 MG3 MMG
......x3 Carl Gustav
......x13 Fuchs
......x1 KanJagdPz VB
......x4 120mm Mortars
......x4 MAN N 4520
......x10 Jaguar 1
......1 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......2 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......3 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......4 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 M113GA1
...352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x10 Jaeger
......x1 Stinger Team
......x3 Milan
......x3 MG3 MMG
......x3 Carl Gustav
......x13 Fuchs
......x1 KanJagdPz VB
......x4 120mm Mortars
......x4 MAN N 4520
......x10 Jaguar 1
......1 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......2 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......3 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
......4 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 M113GA1
...354th Pz Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......x7 Leopard 2A1
......x1 Fuchs
......x1 Scouts
......x8 SpPz Luchs A1
......x5 Jaguar 1
......x6 PzMrs 113 A1G
......1 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 Leopard 1A2A1
......2 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 Leopard 1A2A1
......3 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 Leopard 2A1
So how should we split this lot between us then?
My suggestion is that we take one Bn each and then have all the support elements in a pool spread over the AOR so we can employ them if needed. Some units will probably need to become residents in the combat Bn´s, the SAM units for example.
The HQ unit will need to be on the move and kept in the background somehow.
One other idea is that we split up the Pz Bn and instead three very strong Pzg Bn´s, with a Leopard coy each.
We will also need to have a chat between nations on how we will deploy on the map and liase so we can offer each other support.
John Osborne
30 Aug 05, 21:17
As DD stated. I'm working with a company (Panther Games, Highway to the Reich) on their next game after COTA. Which is called "Battle for the Bulge" I'm researching 1SS Panzer Division OOB and the battles they were involved with. I have to read allot of books.
I will be in and out to see how its going. Sorry guys, this is a job I can't lose.
John Osborne
So how should we split this lot between us then?First of all I'd like to start by saying, welcome to my pedantcism! ;)
Also, if you see alot of quantity in my posts don't think i am trying to run the show or have it all my own way, just that they are ideas, i aint no domineering mongrel, although the nick suggests otherwise.
Conceptual point of structure: I think the first consideration should be, 'how do we want to structure the groups?
Then, what is the situational environment we are facing or tasks we need to perform and what cross attachment considerations need to be made, each turn?
Then, Who is going to command/do what?
It seems John is not going to be available 100% for now, so we will have to work out the turn assignments as they come, but we should at least try to keep a core structure based on the 2 PzG battalions as you suggested. If John has some time and wants to command a battle with my core units then i have no problems with that, if he gets more time in the future we may be able to work something else out.
That said, to start i think we should leave the PzgB's roughly as they are, cross attach artillery and armour. However, i am thinking we could form up a better/stonger fast combined arms recon unit, more like our forefathers in WW2. Say 2 companies, or think of it as a large company with support.
Thats just the way i am percieving it, the added advantage apart from the strategic one is that there will be 3 groups, one a small one and that may suit John's availability, if not, it wouldn't be hard for one of us to handle two pbem games at once if one is a small unit. If we construct it around speed then we should have no problem getting out of a tight spot, if we run into something small we'll have the power to engage it(kill it or bloody it's nose and spoil their feeble plans), if we don't run into anything, then we have L'Ouverture! :devil:
My suggestion is that we take one Bn each and then have all the support elements in a pool spread over the AOR so we can employ them if needed. Some units will probably need to become residents in the combat Bn´s, the SAM units for example.
The HQ unit will need to be on the move and kept in the background somehow. Yeah, how bout a HQ/pool/reserve unit? Originally, i was thinking about the pool idea too, but maybe, either in deployment or first turn we are going to attach them somewhere, and once there it just seems like to much paper work to treat them as a pool the next turn. As the game is if we want to take some arty and armour from one bn and attach it to the other then its no big deal as long as we arn't spread out too far.
I think we could get best of both worlds if we cross attach most to the battallions but leave a reserve elemnt with the HQ. That way, the biggest deployment that turn, or one we expect to see most action, will get the HQ unit attached to it with added support, and then we can work out the cross attachement from the other BN if applicable.
One other idea is that we split up the Pz Bn and instead three very strong Pzg Bn´s, with a Leopard coy each.Yep thats an option, it is different to the 2 pzg bn's and a heavy recon idea, so i'll let you digest the ideas above and if you then want to examine this idea further then no problemo.
We will also need to have a chat between nations on how we will deploy on the map and liase so we can offer each other support.Yeah, maybe a seperate thread on it when the time comes. Did you read my post about cross attaching from other nations? The Canadians seem to have mentioned it, the Ami's havn't, you know what they're like with having their men under foreign commands. ;) :cheeky:
Last thing, what do you think about overall command? I was just thinking if we can gel our ideas and get some good teamwork happening in it we should just share command if thats ok with DD, spread the workload for us. In my experience last campaign there were teamplayers who i could have easily worked that way with, then there was a player who came in late and wanted to dominate everything, spoilt the whole thing. If we get along like the first example then its no problem, if our ideas are at odds then we'll have to decide on an overall commander.
As DD stated. I'm working with a company (Panther Games, Highway to the Reich) on their next game after COTA. Which is called "Battle for the Bulge" I'm researching 1SS Panzer Division OOB and the battles they were involved with. I have to read allot of books.
I will be in and out to see how its going. Sorry guys, this is a job I can't lose.
John Osborne
No problem John, how long do you think your commitment over there will last?
Just be sure to pop in and say hi, add some comments anywhere you think they are needed, even tho you arn't able to commit to much of the game your input when you can make it will always be appreciated. Also, jump in anytime for a battle if and when you have time, Wouldn't want you to feel you don't deserve a battle just because you arn't able to commit to as planning as others.
...although the nick suggests otherwise.
Oh, I thougt that it meant that you hade some kind of obsession with fur hats. ;)
Say 2 companies, or think of it as a large company with support.
Are you saying that we want to fight company sized battles? Do we know if there is a set mapscale for each fight, or does it depend on what kind of units that will do the batlle?
Yep thats an option, it is different to the 2 pzg bn's and a heavy recon idea, so i'll let you digest the ideas above and if you then want to examine this idea further then no problemo.
I didnt really undertand what you wanted to do with the tanks. ...leave the PzgB's roughly as they are, cross attach artillery and armour... But you only want two Bn´s in operation if I understand correctly. That as well as a coy+ and the rest in reserve? In my world it would in that case be quite alot of units in reserve, what have I missed?
Yeah, maybe a seperate thread on it when the time comes. Did you read my post about cross attaching from other nations? The Canadians seem to have mentioned it, the Ami's havn't, you know what they're like with having their men under foreign commands. ;) :cheeky:
I think we desperatly need a supreme NATO commander to sort this kind of things out. Someone that can giver our different elements tasks and areas to operate in. I think such information also is vital to what we want to do with our units.
Double Deuce
31 Aug 05, 08:39
Are you saying that we want to fight company sized battles? Do we know if there is a set mapscale for each fight, or does it depend on what kind of units that will do the batlle?Some hexes may be included in a single battle (several 2km sections pasted together) depending on units in particular hexes, orders, etc.
Because the "security" in WinSPMBT interferes so much with multiplayer PBeM's I may have to break them out into many smaler battles inseatd of larger ones involving more than 1 commander per side. I am hoping CAMO's changes in the patch will address this security obstacle.
Pergite, sorry about the vagueness of my last post. I will get replying to your queries very soon, and take some time to get my ideas better constructed, just lettin ya know i'm workin on it, but need to do some realworld stuff right now.
Talk to ya soon.
Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
.........x13 PanzerGrenadiers
.........x9 Marder 1A2+
.........x4 Marder 1A2
I have a fear that we have recived the poor no-good version of PanzerGrenadiers. In my mind we where equipped with at least one Milan launcer per platoon, but seeing other OOB have given me some doubts.
I guess I request more detail into exactly what I wil be commanding.
I have a fear that we have recived the poor no-good version of PanzerGrenadiers. In my mind we where equipped with at least one Milan launcer per platoon, but seeing other OOB have given me some doubts.
I guess I request more detail into exactly what I wil be commanding.
The Marder 1A2+ has ATGM, i think, i hope! I think we will be able to purchase replacements and some extra's, if you think you need em you may be able to get em.
The Marder 1A2+ has ATGM, i think, i hope! I think we will be able to purchase replacements and some extra's, if you think you need em you may be able to get em.
Yes the (+) means ATGM version, five T80 killing Milans. The problem is that these units are the only ones that can pick of armour on distances over 3 hexes, and that is cutting things a little close.
Dont get me wrong, it will certanly be intereseting, but I wouldn mind haveing the Pzgr Platoon* (236p) insead of the standard non ATGM equipped for (292p).
We would actually save points and get ATGM´s at the same time!
On second thoughts i have slightly changed my idea of how to structure this thing. Main reason is i think it is best to have 1st and 2nd line task force + 1 heavy scout group, 1 of us commands the 1st line TF the other the 2nd line + the HSG. If John returns for a game or two then there will still be 3 groups, if he returns fulltime then we can discuss what we want to do then.
Keep the PzG battalions roughly as they are, but attach most the armour and support to each one, leaving some for the HRG. the 1st Bn will be weighted the most heavily with the attachments, as an example 1st Bn gets 60%, 2nd gets 30% and the HRG gets 10%.
Slightly canabalise our existing units, just skim of from those units that will be needed, to form the HRG. We don't want to weaken our all over capabilities, but taking a bit from here and there will be ok. If we can purchase new units we can restock what we used.
The idea is, the 1st Bn will do most of the work, the 2nd will be a front line unit deployed in the front, the same as the 1st Bn, but we will try to use the 1st as the work horse. When we lose units from the 1st then the 2nd, if able to, can act like a reserve element to the 1st, or can take over role of the 1st and have its support units re-attached.
That way we may not need a reserve element and we can concentrate elements into a heavier TF rather than split 3 or two ways. The 2nd will mainly be considered front line defense, while the 1st can be deployed in defence or offense. Depending what they are up against, if the secon inf encounters a weaker force it may be ok to use it offensively, but if it encounters a larger force it will still have defensive sting. if the situation called for it we could add the HRG to the 2nd, if needed and it will be nearly as strong as the 1st.
This system would give us more options i think, and if the enemy splits their units 3 ways, the statistics will be on our side when we engage using the 1st Bn. I don't think the 2nd will be too disadvantaged if having to defend agaisnt a one third strengh enemy, at least i know my own abilities enough to not feel threatened by it. You don't sound like the type to be threatened by it either.
The HRG will be an aggressive reece unit, which can be used to hamper the enemies plans if the situation arises and be able to effectively hold its own while doing it. If not, it just withdraws. Thats better than just having forward eyes i think, and if we are going to defend i reckon we should try and disrupt the enemies plans where and whenever we can.
I'm also thinking it could become useful supporting the Canadian airmob unit if they get one. The americans seem to be discussing deploying an engineer force seperately, i think these 3 arms, air/eng/HRG could work well together while the Bn's hold of the assault, depending on what is happening of course.
So what do you think of this, its just a roughy to give you an idea, it would need some fine tuning it later. Sorry i can't talk military jargon too well, you'd probably understand that better.
Yes the (+) means ATGM version, five T80 killing Milans. The problem is that these units are the only ones that can pick of armour on distances over 3 hexes, and that is cutting things a little close.
Dont get me wrong, it will certanly be intereseting, but I wouldn mind haveing the Pzgr Platoon* (236p) insead of the standard non ATGM equipped for (292p).
We would actually save points and get ATGM´s at the same time!
Yeah, the ATGM's work well when hidden, easier to do with a 3 man team. Well we just have to do with what we have, hopefully we can purchase some later.
From what i read from the open forum the enemy seems to like the idea of smoke and getting close, might prove handy to have those short range AT's after all :devil:
So what do you think of this, its just a roughy to give you an idea, it would need some fine tuning it later. Sorry i can't talk military jargon too well, you'd probably understand that better.
It was basically the same idea I had. We cant afford to initially have anything designated as reserve, we need all barrels shooting from the start. The reserve units will automatically be the ones that isnt involved in heavy fighting at the moment.
Exacly what are your thoughts for unis in this heavy recon element?
Looks like we might be gettin some more stuff.
Had a quick look at some possibilities
1, Recon coy
or
2, Paratrooper coy, no planes.
or
Engineer coy.
The paratroopers have Milan's in the squads, so you might like that, although no transports.
The others have Milan teams and an inf sam each i think.
Maybe we can get a mortar platoon to go with em too.
Anyway, thats all i can think of as an addition, a cheap one, maybe we will be able to get more than that even.
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