View Full Version : Who owns the rights to talonsoft's CS games??
Hey everyone, I was just wondering who owns the rights to all of the resources in the CS games (.bmps, .wavs, etc) now that they are defunct and godgames doesnt even support them. If anyone knows who I can contact or where I can find info on that would be most helpful. I want to use a few .bmps and wavs from their games in one of my own, that may I may attempt to sell.
Thanks,
Da\/iLLaN
Gnrl Confusion
23 Aug 05, 15:43
I think it's these guys:
http://www.take2games.com/
Jason Petho
24 Aug 05, 07:28
I would be most interested to know how your inquiry to them turns out!
Take care and good luck
Jason Petho
I scrolled through 14 pages of games at Take2.
Not one example of the CS games.
They might "own" the rights, but it is apparent they couldn't care less about the games.
And while it is wrong to call them "abandonware" (as there is no such thing), I also don't support companies that insist their interests are at stake, when they don't actually have any interest.
You can for instance still find a link to TOAW CoW on sale at Take2
http://store.yahoo.com/take2store/centuryofwarfare-pc.html
Although they have done a sterling job of hiding it.
Campaign Series is also well hidden, here.
http://store.yahoo.com/take2store/worldatwar-pc.html
Thus, they do "own" it. But their measure of interest is suspect. Unless you are willing to use a search function there on their site, you won't find it.
My advice, if you want the game, buy it from NWS.
If you want to use something from the game, my advice, don't be shocked if you have a hard time ferreting out anyone to answer you.
If you want to use something from the game, my advice, don't be shocked if you have a hard time ferreting out anyone to answer you.
Thats the problem. There are so many great resources in the CS games that would make independant development so much easier. I know that there hasnt been any support for them in a few years, but I also dont think that Take2 or godgames would freely give access to them royalty free either.
And thats if anyone responds.
Thanks,
Da\/iLLaN
Gnrl Confusion
24 Aug 05, 10:05
I contacted them a year or two ago, starting from their support page. I just wanted to see what they'd be willing to sell the rights for. The support guy got back to me fairly quickly and gave me two email contacts. One bounced back, the other never responded.
I thought this was curious, as they know nothing about me or my means and the fact that my email came from a multi-media company should have at the very least triggered some kind of response, even though preliminary.
I can't help felling like there's something more to it. Maybe they don't own the rights after all, or at least not outright. If they share the rights, trying to sell it might be more costly than what they could hope to receive in return. Who knows?
John Given
24 Aug 05, 10:36
Abatis and I were tossing this topic around a few months back; I suggested that one would almost certainly have to procure the services of an attorney (or attorneys) who specialize in corporate rights sales and acquisitions.
Of course, their fee won't be cheap, probably in excess of $10,000 by the time everything is finalized. And, purchasing the rights to the CS itself could easily be in excess of $100,000.
My guess is, what Take2 is saying by all this silence is "Serious inquiries only. We appreciate your interest, but please don't waste our time."
Oh, almost forgot. Take2 would probably ONLY take an offer made via such an attorney a serious offer - but just getting some preliminary info and tips from this type of lawyer is likely going to cost at least a few hundred dollars. Which begs the question - are you *really* serious about buying the rights to the CS?
The truth is, only another corporation would likely have the financial capacity to make a serious offer, which explains Take2's aloofness on the issue from ACG forum members. The company would then have to forward this offer to their attorney and/or CFO, sit down and determine the value of the rights to the CS, possibly make a counter-proposal, and well, you can see where I'm going with this. These folks are all about big money, and they can't possibly respond to even a small number of e-mails they get on the subject. The details often have to be hammered out in the courts, and can take months or even years to finalize.
Besides, right now Take2 has its head wrapped around their big money-makers, like GTA San Andreas.
That's my 2cents.
I thought about this after I posted my previous comments.
Ok, you can buy World at War from that Take2 link. That doesn't establish ownership though, does it?
You can also buy the same game from NWS
http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246778232/woatwarta.html
Should a casual shopper assume that NWS owns the game?
I would not be able to fault a person making that error eh.
Has anyone ever had anyone at Take2 come right out and claim the game as there game?
I ask, because I don't recall at this time.
Boonierat
24 Aug 05, 12:12
I thought about this after I posted my previous comments.
Ok, you can buy World at War from that Take2 link. That doesn't establish ownership though, does it?
You can also buy the same game from NWS
http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246778232/woatwarta.html
Should a casual shopper assume that NWS owns the game?
I would not be able to fault a person making that error eh.
Has anyone ever had anyone at Take2 come right out and claim the game as there game?
I ask, because I don't recall at this time.
Talonsoft sold out to Take2 long time ago. For fun I just tried the old talonsoft web adress, and it's still active: http://www.talonsoft.com/ but it redirects to a company named Gathering, owned by Take2.
Gnrl Confusion
24 Aug 05, 19:03
Well then, who volunteers to make the call? Not me, though, I'm a General.
Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc.
622 Broadway, New York, NY 10012
(646) 536-2842
Well then, who volunteers to make the call? Not me, though, I'm a General.
Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc.
622 Broadway, New York, NY 10012
(646) 536-2842
Can't help ya, I don't do long distance international calls on a lark :)
I could possibly fire em off a letter snail mail and see what their asking price was for their Talonsoft games rights were.
Would be interesting to see if anything at all happened.
I wonder how to even go about asking for it, without sounding like a 13 year old amateur fan of the game.
I think I would rather ask if its abandonware(long shot)than ask for the rights to it. Once the concept of money gets involved, It gets so much harder and more expensive with legal representation like Mr. Given said earlier.
Da\/iLLaN
asiaticus
03 Oct 05, 14:01
It seems to me that Divided Ground might qualify as abandonware. Its not being sold by Take 2 in any fashion. A lot of fixes and improvements have been made and continue to be made by gamers to make it work and expand it into Vietnam and other theatres of modern conflicts. That would be the most likely one to have comercial potential too.
Well, if anyone has looked lately, even World at War gold edition is no longer available at the Take2 store?
How soon is it considered abandoned? We may be able to save some money?
Ed
sickofnames
05 Oct 05, 16:26
I asked Take2 about Talonsoft and there was no responce. Talonsoft exists only in Name only they have 5 people one for tech support and 4 for office work dealing with the re-release of Age of Sail and Battelground Gettysburg. Concidering the trend in the market they will more then lilely Re-release the other titles for sale and retian the rights. Squeaking every last penny out of them.
Don Maddox
06 Oct 05, 01:31
Hey everyone, I was just wondering who owns the rights to all of the resources in the CS games (.bmps, .wavs, etc) now that they are defunct and godgames doesnt even support them. This may answer your questions.
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=421493#post421493
sickofnames
06 Oct 05, 02:35
Matrix has alot on its plate already. They seem quite greedy as I have notice others mention in other threads. Cant blame a company for trying to grow and make money its the point of business of course. It just looks like a bid for monopoly to me and I dont see that as good for the consumer or the hobby in the long run.
Boonierat
06 Oct 05, 03:41
Would you prefer these games to be ignored by Take2 and sleep forever in their back catalogue? Sure Matrix appears more and more like a wargaming monopoly but at least their are trying to keep the hobby alive, I'd be happy if they improve the CS games and give them a lifting like they did to SPWAW and even if they don't, making the whole series available for only 40$ seems more than OK for me.
sickofnames
06 Oct 05, 04:10
id prefer they were open sourced or purchased by somebody like the Blitz.org Who would have it be a sole project instead one of many. That has the gamer and not the profit in mind.
Well, the Press Release said they were looking for devotees of the game to "help them out" with their development?
Maybe The Blitz would be beneficial to them with all the work on the expansion disks that have been done to date?
Just a thought? ;-)
Ed
sickofnames
06 Oct 05, 05:46
They asked for help cause there ambition has stretched them thin. As voiced by others it makes ya wonder if they can finish all there games. Must be why they are looking for devotees. Free devlopment help? Open Source could have helped that.
The World At War set I have works fine. Scenario editor is there. I have all the add on's I need.
I just cant get excited about Matrix acquiring everything they can get there hands on. Monopoly keeps coming to mind. Never a good thing.
Wonder who will be next on there buy up list? It would not be so bad if they stuck with PC but the whole VASSAL thing happened. They are trying to stick there hands in all the cookie jars.
Siberian HEAT
06 Oct 05, 10:21
These games would never have been Open Sourced (well maybe in another decade). Take 2 spent CONSIDERABLE money to get them and weren't going to just let them go "for the good of the community" The fact that Matrix had to outright purchase them should tell you that they weren't let go cheap. To expect Matrix to now turn around and Open Source them is unrealistic. There are pros and cons to having all these games under Matrix's banner, but I can tell you for certain that one of their goals is to get development help from the original designers, [I]get them some money for their efforts, and also hopefully find ways to pay scenario designers a little money for what they have been doing for years for free.
Any other game company could have done the exact same thing had they wanted to do so. I don't see how you can possible fault Matrix Games for pursuing something that we ourselves (TOAW and CS Communities) have wanted forever.
Of course I may be eating my hat in a year, but I do have very high expectations at this minute. :laugh:
Don Maddox
06 Oct 05, 11:53
Gentlemen, allow me to add to what Brian has already said and attempt to clear up a few things.
First, there was no chance--none--that either TOAW or the Campaign Series were going to be opened sourced by Take 2 as some have suggested. How do I know? It's a long story and I'm not going to go into all the details, but I will provide you with a few so you'll know where we are coming from.
Some time ago I personally spoke with Take 2 about the prospects of securing the rights to TOAW and/or the Campaign Series. I was able to make some good progress on the TOAW side, but was forced to put the project on hold due to a couple of factors. I can tell you for a fact that Take 2 most certainly does not consider ANY of these games to be abandoneware, nor was there any serious consideration given to the idea of open sourcing them. Take 2 considers them valuable properties, so I don't need to explain to you that they did not want to sell them outright.
As far as the campaign series is concerned, I am not at liberty to discuss what I know of the upgrades and changes that are being planned. However, I am in direct contact with the president of Matrix and he is enthusiastic about where this series is headed. I have provided Matrix with some ideas and suggestions for the CS, and they have come up with other good ideas on their own. If the community would like to toss the subject around and come up with a "wish list" of 10-15 important enhancements, I will see to it that the list gets a fair consideration by the people who will make such decisions (I can't make any guarantees).
We've known about a lot of this for a long time, so it has been challenging not to be able to speak about any of it while reading through your various discussions! But now you know. I absolutely feel that the Campaign Series is in good hands and is headed in the right direction.
sickofnames
06 Oct 05, 12:48
Before Take 2, people tried to buy these rights. I don't see matrix as a good thing, ever. When this stiff goes corprate it goes in the toilet. Like Avalon Hill.
People are happy about it, thats good. I am not. I still have my two old copies. I will stick with them. I surely would not buy anything new. Dont need to. Problem is I am sure that nobody else will want to play with the old version. So they will get shelved permently after the new release. I have done mostly non pC for years anyway, thankfully Board and Minis have returned in in a good showing in past years.
These games have been on my hard drive for over 7 years. They are classics.
I am thrilled about this move to Matrix. I am familiar with Matrix's handling of Steel Panthers and have bought their other games too. They are a great company and I've always had good customer service. I think this will be a great thing for the games and will ensure they are around for a long time. I will buy the new ones as they come out. The old games will slowly become unusable due to changing Operating Systems and the like, this ensures that we will have the CS for a long time.
Matrix Games wouldn't be a monopoly if it was as easy to produce games as we all wish it was.
I was there when Matrix Games was just some guys rescuing Steel Panthers. Back then they had a dream, and it looks like the dream is coming true for David Heath and his company.
There are not many operations out there slogging away at making our wargames eh. And I am glad to have the few operations we have.
I saw a thread somewhere a while back, that implied Battlefront was "bigger" than Matrix Games.
The truth is both companies are small when measured up against the EA looking operations out there.
I doubt either Matrix Games or Battlefront has a "large" "workforce" under hire and on the salary.
I also don't think the sum total number of represented games is a fair measure of either's "magnitude" of operation.
Additionally, whether or not the operation operates more through retail, or through online online methods is not really a realistic means to guage scale of operations.
One thing is certain though, and the ASL crowd will likely back me up on this, if we didn't have these operations grabbing up are classic wargames, and seeing to it they remained on the shelf (so to speak), they would in time, just be titles guys talked about, but which were not being played by anyone new.
I own TOAW elite edition Volume 1 and volume 2 which I gladly replaced with Century of Warfare edition, at a further cost to me of 80 bucks. The earlier versions didn't like my XP OS. Sure I could have obstinantly stuck back with Win 95 just so I could play some old games. But the Win 95 OS cuts me out of playing much of anything new in software in the process too often. I was glad my old fav was still playable. It was regretable having to buy it in a redundant fashion. But how many wargames have you really bought, that were good enough to ensure you could still play them?
I would loooooove to be able to load up Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat and have it run without glitches. I can't even recall what my V For Victory games looked like, it's been so long. I wish someone could save those titles too.
I can't support the notion, that Matrix Games is biting off more than they can chew.
I would like it though, if the people actually responsible for a couple of their games, actually spent a bit more time on them. But that is not relevant to whether electing to obtain the rights to Talonsoft titles is over stretching.
Jason Petho
06 Oct 05, 16:36
This is very exciting news!!
Will be interesting to see what happens with Project Blitzkrieg #2 though.
Take care and good luck
Jason Petho
Jason,
You should give Heath a ring. I bet he could use you. Tell him I sent you.
Matrix has alot on its plate already. They seem quite greedy as I have notice others mention in other threads. Cant blame a company for trying to grow and make money its the point of business of course. It just looks like a bid for monopoly to me and I dont see that as good for the consumer or the hobby in the long run.
I find this, and similar, posts utterly incomprehensible. "Greedy" in what way? It's not as if assorted wargaming companies have been fighting bitterly to get their hands on the titles for the last seven years. They won't make anybody rich. So... they won't be free. There's no reason they should be, but a whole new generation of wargamers will get the chance to play some of these titles and old hands may get to see some improvements. Divided Ground as it should have been, anybody? A new and improved TOAW?
A 'monopoly' on what, wargames? Hardly, what about Battlefront, Shrapnel and HPS? Hardly quaking in their boots at the re-release of games this old. And the only other things Matrix have been collecting are some assorted indie sci-fi stuff and a couple of hardcore sports sims. Of those companies I mentioned the only one likely to be affected in the slightest is HPS, but only those new to the hobby are likely to buy the Battleground games ahead of the far superior HPS Gettysburg, Waterloo etc. A monopoly on old titles? Who wants a monopoly on those?
This is great news for wargamers and fans of the Talonsoft games, IMHO. It will be unfortunate if any improvements won't work with the old releases (which seems likely), but in a couple of cases I would still consider a (re) purchase. Even if you aren't prepared to do that, you are no worse off.
EDIT: I forgot Harpoon, of course, but exactly the same applies to that as the Talonsoft stuff.
sickofnames
06 Oct 05, 20:05
Gobbling up everything in sight is greedy. As I see it they are attemtping to be the wal mart of wargames.
I dont see it as being saved. Nothing every prevented CS from being played and enjoyed.
People dont agree, okay. Well I dont either. I dont think its a good for the hobby and will eventually lead to bad things. When Hasbro bought all the rights to old 80's VCS games and Commedore games some poeple thought they were being saved too. In the end they were ruined by these greedy companies that stonewalled people from using being able to come up with no innovations to keep them alive. Instead Hasbro attacked the enthusiast of the games that were keeping them going and realeased copies of the orginals in shoddy equipment that makes Hasbro huge profits but destroyed the fun of the hobby. Now its all gone.
Matrix and wargamer seem to be linked and they may not have lots of guys but they have plenty of money to gobble all this stuff up.
What HPS thinks I dont know what relevance that is. They obvioulsy arent willing to sell.
If the PC guys are happy, good for you. Our opinons of the matter differ though.
CS was about the only PC game left I'd play. I never concidered it dead. I always had opponets. But I concider it dead now.
I just hope Matrix doesnt go any further into the non PC area then VASSAL.
Who wants a monoppoly on old titles? Seems that Matrix does.
Hello
I do not find it being "greedy" to purchase the rights of games that have been available to any other company that wanted to make an offer. What we have done is listen to what most gamers has stated over and overl. Tthey want some of there favoriate games updated and enchanced. Gamers who are happy with what they have need never purchase a copy from Matrix Games. We do agree nothing needed saving but we consider it more of moving the games forward as do the developers of these fine products.
David Heath
Matrix Games
To illustrate what David said, how many mods have there been to correct Bombing the Reich? Many because it's a neat game. Can every owner keep track? I doubt it. Can new players get it? Only if they get lucky on eBay.
So what Matrix is doing is opening up a door to some classic games to newcomers while offering present owners an option to get upgraded versions if they want them.
Me? I'll for sure get the Grigsby games. I'll wait and see what the changes are to the Tiller and Koger games.
Gnrl Confusion
07 Oct 05, 12:38
Hello
I do not find it being "greedy" to purchase the rights of games that have been available to any other company that wanted to make an offer. What we have done is listen to what most gamers has stated over and overl. Tthey want some of there favoriate games updated and enchanced. Gamers who are happy with what they have need never purchase a copy from Matrix Games. We do agree nothing needed saving but we consider it more of moving the games forward as do the developers of these fine products.
David Heath
Matrix Games
I couldn't agree more and am just glad somebody took these games over. Can't wait to see what Matrix does with them.
This thread is turning into the Carrol O'Conner Memorial. :)
I second Confusion' s sentiment. And I don't understand why anyone this early in the "game" would be thinking negatively about this move. Let events unfold before rushing to negativity -hell, we may all be complaining about it months from now(saying that only to be objective, from what I have read, I'm not expecting that to be the case) but for now, I just can't see this as anything other than GREAT!
IT'S ALIVE!!!
:laugh:
Before my cold medication takes me back to Morpheus let me add:
Matrix, PLEASE fix the AT guns! They are way too easy to spot and kill. Not talking about the big ol' 88's, talking the squat little guys. Spotting, in general is way too easy IMHO.
Also -could we detach squads from platoons? There are bunches of reasons why this would be good.
Please add snipers (I would suggest having an allotment of sniper missions(representing teams) like star shells or smoke, and you plot them in a certain hex say within command range of any friendly HQ -no chit counter would exist for the sniper, though an icon of some sort would be needed to mark the spot. -If enemy soft units moves into the hex, the sniper team causes auto -disruption and has a chance of killing leaders, and a small chance of a 1sp reduction to other soft targets. Within rifle range and in LOS, it should have a chance of taking out leaders still and inflicting disruption. They can be eliminated by an assault against the hex(automatic elimination) or, if no forces can be brought to bear against it for assault, the side deploying the sniper can move the mission to any hex that a regular infantry unit can get to and start again. Or leave it in place if they choose.
Also -what about a "locked in melee" possible result for assaults? It has always seemed odd to me that every assault can be resolved in 6 minutes(whining about this in play testing did no good -Charlie K. told me there was n't much impetus to mess with the code which is what it would take to allow opposing units to be in the same hex...but if you guys are doing it *anyway*....?)
I think also that ANY hard unit(not talking carrier HT's of course) should be able to assault Pill Boxes; not every assault is supposed to represent an over run. I've read plenty of accounts of driving tanks right up to pillboxes and basically blasting them point blank from inches away -something not represented by the current system with a 250 sq. meter hex..
And lastly, I would like the location of the Linburgh Baby and a case of Guinness. (the Pub Draught, though Extra Stout is ok)
OK, when it gets surreal, its time to sleep. :laugh:
Gobbling up everything in sight is greedy. As I see it they are attemtping to be the wal mart of wargames.
I dont see it as being saved. Nothing every prevented CS from being played and enjoyed.
People dont agree, okay. Well I dont either. I dont think its a good for the hobby and will eventually lead to bad things. When Hasbro bought all the rights to old 80's VCS games and Commedore games some poeple thought they were being saved too. In the end they were ruined by these greedy companies that stonewalled people from using being able to come up with no innovations to keep them alive. Instead Hasbro attacked the enthusiast of the games that were keeping them going and realeased copies of the orginals in shoddy equipment that makes Hasbro huge profits but destroyed the fun of the hobby. Now its all gone.
Matrix and wargamer seem to be linked and they may not have lots of guys but they have plenty of money to gobble all this stuff up.
What HPS thinks I dont know what relevance that is. They obvioulsy arent willing to sell.
If the PC guys are happy, good for you. Our opinons of the matter differ though.
CS was about the only PC game left I'd play. I never concidered it dead. I always had opponets. But I concider it dead now.
I just hope Matrix doesnt go any further into the non PC area then VASSAL.
Who wants a monoppoly on old titles? Seems that Matrix does.
This post is so full of illogic it truely astounds me.
First off, the Walmart comment is totally dumb. Walmart uses sweat shop offshore sources so it can massively undercut locally made goods, and expects to retail their goods through no unions allowed stores, where everything is only cheaper thanks to these nasty practices which while legal, are still unfriendly.
How does that even remotely sound like Matrix Games?
Next, the Hasbro comment. Hasbro, known to some as Hasborg, eats up and then buries. They don't care if it sells for the most part unless it sells in millions of units. They only buy items currently selling like hot cakes. No one at Hasbro really knows thing one about half of their purchases, they only see "fad item doing well, better absorb it". They actually thought it was horrible, when the second year after buying Pokemon, it only sold 2 Billion in sales.
So at what point, is there any connection to Matrix Games there?
Oh by the way, David owns Wargamer, I thought most wargamers already knew that.
Your argument is so illogical, I could picture you complaining of rescue boats rescuing too many drowning victims, were only greedily hoarding glory for themselves.
C'mon man, Matrix Games is one of the few operations out there run by wargamers with wargamer interests as being more important than making yet another stupid mainstream console game.
But in truth, I couldn't fault David for making console games if he had the capacity.
No one ever opened up a business merely to make themselves busy all day. It's about making an income.
If you want balance, how about YOU getting some investors, and YOU giving Matrix Games some competition :)
Jason Petho
07 Oct 05, 14:33
Jason,
You should give Heath a ring. I bet he could use you. Tell him I sent you.
Jim! Hello!
Do you have an email where I can contact David directly?
Thanks in advance!
Take care and good luck
Jason Petho
Straying rather off topic, I just wish Matrix would further enforce their evil monopolistic dominance of the wargaming world by "gobbling up" Age of Rifles for a wash, brush-up and re-release! :whist:
sickofnames
07 Oct 05, 19:52
It make perfect sence to me. I dont care if you dont understand.. I dont care if you think its dumb. You will not debate me out of my opinon. Wheather you like the opinion or not.
I dont like it I wont ever like it. I dont care for what matrix is doing and thats it.
Age of Rifles as I understand it is a Norm Koger game. Why not ask him to touch it up? I think I saw it on a Abandonware. And then you could get it and work with it.
I will never be convinced that this kind of consolidation is moving anything forward. Nor did CS recquire anything further "enhancement" IMO. There are only two things that needed fixing and I really dont think buying and re selling the game was nescessary to do so. The quick about loading and unloading and then random battles deployment mess.
One other thing. theblitz.org did attempt to buy the rights and I think there were other offers in that past.
My, what a fine, articulate mind. If you don't want a open discussion, don't waste bandwidth posting.
sickofnames
07 Oct 05, 21:04
If your gpoing to cry about oposing opinons then dont repsond.
Sorry you cant all have your way. But sometimes people just dont agree with you. Deal with it.
I can if you can.
I think we're all waiting for why you think Matrix is greedy. The dwinding number of unbought copies of CS inicates CS is not reaching everybody who would like to play it. The fact that you said you had it and that was enough indicates a certain selfishness.
I'm not sure I understand your comparision of Matrix to Hasbro.
BTW, proofing and editing your posts for typos, spelling ang grammar errors would help your posts.
Gnrl Confusion
07 Oct 05, 22:39
I think we should talk about Carroll O'Conner some more.
sickofnames
08 Oct 05, 02:58
Quite a better topic then why people think I should'nt have my opinion.
By the way I just bought the Rights to every hamburger fast food chain in existance. No matter if its a Bigmac or a Whopper or what, your paying me. Next IM after every soft drink companys. No matter if its Shasta or Coke. your paying me.
but IM not greedy. I just wanted to save shasta and move it forward. Anybody know who has RC cola? that one is almost dead I want to save them too. As long as I get the cash from the rescue effort. Just cause RC hasnt sold to me yet doesnt mean monopoly is a invalid term. Oh yes...it will be mine. :laugh: Anybody seen bill gates around? I need to tell him all that monopoly business was all untrue cause ya know.... there was Red Hat.
my favorite line about gates was "go out and the get the cash to compete with gates. or make your own operating system....yeah cause its just that simple". :laugh:
Where does it say open forms mean I have to agree with the crowd?
Archie Bunker would not approve.
Quite a better topic then why people think I should'nt have my opinion..
You have every right to express your opinion, but when it seems to be so completely at odds with everybody else's you have to accept it will be vigorously disputed.
As you said yourself;
But sometimes people just dont agree with you. Deal with it.
Part of the reason people disagree is that your arguments simply make no sense. For example;
By the way I just bought the Rights to every hamburger fast food chain in existance. No matter if its a Bigmac or a Whopper or what, your paying me. Next IM after every soft drink companys. No matter if its Shasta or Coke. your paying me.
..which I assume is supposed to be some sort of relevant analogy? The trouble is, it isn't even remotely relevant.
I want to buy a burger? I can go to McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, Wimpy or whoever. I want to buy a wargame? I can buy Combat Mission from Battlefront. I can buy Squad Battles from HPS. I can buy Armored Task Force or WinSPMBT from Shrapnel. I can buy Battles in Normandy from Matrix. If Matrix wanted a monopoly, they would be buying out the other companies (which I very much doubt they are in, or will ever be in, a financial position to do), not paying a relatively small sum for a well respected but dated collection of games that nobody else has shown any real interest in re-marketing?
These are decent games, but will re-releases take over the wargaming world from the likes of Combat Mission or SPWaW? Hardly. Matrix will sell more than a few of these games but nowhere near as many copies (individually) as they will Combat Leader when they finally get that out the door.
A very versitale actor. We all know his comedic roles, Archie. etc, but he had some fine dramtic roles earlier in his career. I remember one TV program about the Fetterman incident where he almost stole the show as a supporting actor.
I still prefer Steiger over him as Sheriff Gillespie.
It make perfect sence to me. I dont care if you dont understand.. I dont care if you think its dumb. You will not debate me out of my opinon. Wheather you like the opinion or not.
I dont like it I wont ever like it. I dont care for what matrix is doing and thats it.
Age of Rifles as I understand it is a Norm Koger game. Why not ask him to touch it up? I think I saw it on a Abandonware. And then you could get it and work with it.
I will never be convinced that this kind of consolidation is moving anything forward. Nor did CS recquire anything further "enhancement" IMO. There are only two things that needed fixing and I really dont think buying and re selling the game was nescessary to do so. The quick about loading and unloading and then random battles deployment mess.
One other thing. theblitz.org did attempt to buy the rights and I think there were other offers in that past.
Considering we have a large amount of people here, that didn't hear english when they were young, because it is not their country's primary language, I can understand why some of their posts, might sound a bit "difficult" on an english speaking person's ear.
So let me ask you, is english your native tongue?
If no, I can cut you some slack, as it is not easy to formulate thoughts that make sense in another's language in some cases.
If yes, might I ask, please do us at least the favour or typing your post in something like a Word prosessor program, and then maybe use some of its features before posting :)
Sure it isn't the end of the world to be the only guy supporting a view point, seems like that happens to me a lot :)
But when your analogies aren't. And your examples, not. It tends to throw a lot of the value of your position right in the round file. And let's face it, people will tend to laugh at something that sounds funny, long before they feel like refuting it.
The only thing your position tells me at least, is you resent Matrix Games for acquiring the rights to games. And that you feel there is some sinister justification behind David Heath's motives (he must actually find comments like that good for breaking up the stressful moments of the day :) ). "Oh darn, I have been mistaken for Bill Gates"
"You think you saw it on abandonware".
First we largely seem to support the notion there is no such thing as abandonware. Your proper term might likely be "freetostealware".
Second, would you consider it better if your games of choice, the ones you like were left to languish on abandonware friendly sites, or in the possession of a company that wishes to give them a future (I suggest you ponder your reply to that one though, your reputation might get marred, if not tarred).
I am NOT David Heath's girlfriend that's for sure, but I do wish him well in the gaming business. And if he was able to afford securing the Talonsoft rights, that signals to me, that he is closer to achieving his 5 year goal than NOT achieving it. I call that a plus. Both for David Heath, as well as me, joe wargamer that is glad I have places I can buy new wargames from.
Not all of us want our only source to be Home of the Abandonware.
Some guys say all they want is a "fix" for some aspect of the game. THAT is very selfish and greedy and me thinking actually. Ever think of all the blokes, that weren't there a few years back, to get the original version of the game? What about them.
Or are YOU the only one that counts to YOU?
This is fantastic news for the wargaming community and for all the games that have been acquired and their fans.
Matrix needs to recruit a dedictaed team for each series, and recruit them for all the major forums (SZO,Blitz, etc etc).
Past modders and secanrios designers should be included.
I will be buying the CS series again. I look forward to the future.
Where does it say open forms mean I have to agree with the crowd?
:confused: Wow! So much anger tied up over what a company does or a person says? :nuts:
You may want to relax? And, stay away from analogies? :halo:
For a food analogy I would use, "Some people like meatballs on their spaghetti. But, no one likes Swedish Meatballs on their spaghetti?" :whist:
That would make more sense? Then you could buy up all the restaurants in the chain and remove Swedish Meatballs off the menu? :shock:
If you had an old car that you would not keep fixed up ... and someone bought it ... and put their money into it ... and fixed it up ... and people would say "nice car" as it passed by ... Would you blame the person who fixed up the car? :cheeky:
Seems that you are attacking the wrong people? IMHO of course. You may have your reasons, but I surely do not see them. Nor has anyone else, so far? :hmmm:
Ed
sickofnames
08 Oct 05, 13:17
It makes perfect. Sence. If you dont understand it then ya dont. IOM not going round and round about it.
regrdless of not owning this or that. Monoppoly is still a relvant term. But im not responding to any more on that. So argue away.
How do you know nobody has showin interest in those dated games? They bougnt this. And Don maddox said he couldnt talk about it and was itching to tell.
You have NO IDEA what they might be looking at buying.
The abandware comment. "FreesteelOwar" LMAO whatever dude. You dont hink Norm Koger hasnt ben informed that Age of Rigles is on abandware sites for years now?
I love this when people whom have done NOTHING to contribute to game get all crabby about abandware and the owners fo thame games or whomever left from the defeunked company has said nothing.
The Under Dogs website has been around for years. People have moened and complained about it but never onnce has anybody ever sued that site.
There are ways to keep stuff off that are very simple. If the stuff is on there it is abandoned. like SSI. Its gone. Nobnody there to be upset by using the stuff. Its everywhere. and has been for a long time. So what are ya gonna do? who are ya goona go tell that you think will shut all the down?
When its your software out there then I can see you complaning. Otherwise show me a Signed statement that Norm Koger knows and is upset his stuff is out there. I never seen one.
Siberian HEAT
08 Oct 05, 13:25
We as players and consumers have a few options here. We can curl up in a little ball and whine and complain, we can ignore the whole thing, or we can get involved and be proactive in helping shape the direction of the games we love so much. Matrix is actively soliciting our help in this...and is not throwing the code in a dark closet somewhere.
Case in point. In the TOAW community we are working directly with Matrix to set up a beta test team to work with Norm Koger, so that WE can help provide direction and get the wishes of the community into this new product. We've already got the team organizing, we've contacted all the major ladder communities to make sure we are well represented across the community, and we are moving forward. I'm sure the same thing will happen in the CS community (anyone from SZO want to volunteer for this?!).
If anyone believes this situation is actually WORSE than the total lockdown we've seen the past few years, it flies in the face of all logic and reason.
It makes perfect. Sence. If you dont understand it then ya dont. IOM not going round and round about it.
regrdless of not owning this or that. Monoppoly is still a relvant term. But im not responding to any more on that. So argue away.
How do you know nobody has showin interest in those dated games? They bougnt this. And Don maddox said he couldnt talk about it and was itching to tell.
You have NO IDEA what they might be looking at buying.
The abandware comment. "FreesteelOwar" LMAO whatever dude. You dont hink Norm Koger hasnt ben informed that Age of Rigles is on abandware sites for years now?
I love this when people whom have done NOTHING to contribute to game get all crabby about abandware and the owners fo thame games or whomever left from the defeunked company has said nothing.
The Under Dogs website has been around for years. People have moened and complained about it but never onnce has anybody ever sued that site.
There are ways to keep stuff off that are very simple. If the stuff is on there it is abandoned. like SSI. Its gone. Nobnody there to be upset by using the stuff. Its everywhere. and has been for a long time. So what are ya gonna do? who are ya goona go tell that you think will shut all the down?
When its your software out there then I can see you complaning. Otherwise show me a Signed statement that Norm Koger knows and is upset his stuff is out there. I never seen one.
Not going round and round? Ok "dude"
I spelled it "FREETOSTEALWARE" not "FreesteelOwar". Are you incompetent, merely uninterested in actually taking the effort to actually spell things out, or is it possible you merely can't see well (of course it could be all of the above too).
You DO realise, you have almost completely cornered the position of forum court jester eh.
Does it not bother you, that people are probably laughing at your posts?
How old are you kid?
sickofnames
08 Oct 05, 13:37
ITs perfectly logical. You can talk about it not making sence to you all you want. ITs not going to change any opinons or any of the argument. Ifd they dont make sence to you whatever then. But they make sence to me and others around me I have discussed it with in person. Why dont people feel that I HAVE to be happy I wont be. If you are thats great. Dont worry be happy. :laugh:
They dont have the manpower so they want "contributors" AKA free labor. There was no code to save. CS and TAOW were never not available.
Moving forward at charging you again for a old game you already owned. Its just a money thing. You think these guys at Matrix are all just spending cash on this stuff out the kindness of there hearts? :laugh: They are a business wanting to squeeze money out of something that never needed any saving and fixing that anybody could have done with some program skill and time.
I have no interst in ladders but if thats benefit to other people, cool. I still will never be convinced this kind of thing is a positive.
sickofnames
08 Oct 05, 13:41
Alright enough Aries. Pertty lame going after typos. Grow up. I have my opinon dont like it to bad. geting all angry shows you as quite immature. Ill just ignore thats the best thing. Why let people degrade the thing into some childish free for all. You cant make me like it. so just go on with life.
Siberian HEAT
08 Oct 05, 13:52
I have no interst in ladders but if thats benefit to other people, cool. I still will never be convinced this kind of thing is a positive.
Thats perfectly fine. You have your opinion and I'm sure you are going to vote with your wallet so to speak. There is no need to constantly repeat this over and over.
Sure Matrix is a company and they WANT to make money (remember we do live in a capitalist society where this is encouraged) and I am well aware that by participating we are helping them out. However, I can tell you without reservation that this was NEVER going to happen otherwise in the next decade. I would have gladly given my time to any company willing to update my favorite game. Given that I wasn't willing to wait until 2020 for TOAW to become abandonware or whatever you want to call it...so it could be open sourced (assuming Norm would just throw away his code), I am more than happy to be doing this now. Anyway, I've been a volunteer here for YEARS so I look at this more as helping my fellow players than solely helping Matrix make money.
This is a NET positive for anyone who is an enthusiast of these games (including scenario designers who are in a position to finally get paid for their efforts!). Sure if you are just going to throw the thing on your PC for a bit and then move on, it may not make sense to buy it again. Fair enough. But for the people who are die hard fans, have wanted positive change and enhancements forever, their time has come.
sickofnames
08 Oct 05, 14:01
Well I keep getting attacked for it. Or I get the it doesnt make sence. I played the game as much as any of you I am sure. I am quite abig fan. Being die hard or whatever really has nothig to do with it. Its the only PC wargame I can find that doesnt have major flaws. But instead of leaving the little gem it was. Its going to get wrong out for every last penny and ruined with "enhancments" designed to make the game "fresh" AKA marketable for re-release. Money money money. One more good game gone. I would be content with Matrix making there money of there own INNOVATIONs then gobbling up all my favorite classics to squeeze cash out of them under the guise of a face lift.
A typo is when you accidentally hit a key to the right of the key you were aiming at,or possibly one letter missed in a word while typing it out.
How do you explain your posts :)
You might not have realised this before sickofbeingpickedon :), but wargamers for the most part, are generally very exacting very articulate individuals.
I have a buddy, he types very fast, and couldn't care less about "typos". But, the main difference with his typo heavy posts, and yours, is his are well written thoughts, with proper spelling and grammar, but some typos.
I have to tell you, your posts are often harder to understand, that some of the posts of our non native english speaking members. Because in your case, I can't default it to you just not knowing a turn of phrase or a manner of speech.
You might as well either get used to using proper spelling, a bit more effort on the grammar and sentence structure, or become used to people picking on your badly mangled thoughts.
The word I am thinking of right now, is "incoherent".
We are not always "disagreeing" with you, sometimes you are merely unintelligible.
Or in other words, you would have to make sense, before I could tell what you were saying, in order to even see your point, let alone disagree with it.
I would be content with Matrix making there money of there own INNOVATIONs then gobbling up all my favorite classics to squeeze cash out of them under the guise of a face lift.
What I find quite funny is arguments from someone who says they are not going to argue anymore. :D
The next funniest thing is that your opinion is moot. Don't you realize that? :crosseye:
Matrix has bought the rights to the game. They are on record for making changes to improve the game. Those changes are problably going to come from the input of those who love the game and want to see it grow. :smoke:
Anyone who wants to whine and argue a "done deal" has no argument of merit? :whist:
As a corporation Matrix is allowed to make money, right?
They will need it to pay those who are going to make the improvements, right?
They will need money to print and ship the game out, right?
What is it to you how they go about doing it? I'm not sure that anyone asked for you to be their advocate? So, your stating your negative opinion over and over is like listening to a four year old complain about wetting their pants? :hush:
It's really yours to own up to?
Like the old saying goes; "Lead, follow, or get out of the way! Cause if you don't the road to success will be paved with all the losers who couldn't."
Or, like a recent US General said, "Don't get stuck on Stupid." :dead:
Ed
Mr. Sickofnames....
I'm a little curious. What country are you residing in right now? Your grammer a sentence structure is very familiar. I don't remember seeing your posts around here before, yet something is familiar. Maybe it's just me. What is your native tongue?
Cheers,
Ray
You people are childish. These forums are a waste. Grow up. Have your little tauntrums all you want. IN fact here. I AM SO HAPPY MATRIX IS BUYING EVERYTHING HOOOO RAAYY. Are you little snots happy then? No quit you pathetic whining. What abeevis and butthead crowd. No you have your way spolied little brats.
No I'm not you are :)
There feel better. Stop posting idiotic, badly typed, not at all proofread, grammatically mangled mumblings, and maybe we will give one iota of interest in what you are barely managing to say.
We ain't all grade 8 english teachers, but at least most of us at least put out the effort to appear like our IQ exceeds our shoe size.
These forums are only a waste, when posters like you insist on posting rubbish.
This topic should move on to ask questions like:
1.
This topic should move on to ask questions like:
1. How much time should Matrix put into these games before re-release?
2. Other than AI, what should be fixed?
3. Would people accept electronic delivery or retail?
trauth116
09 Oct 05, 11:08
I for one am not a big Matrix fan- I think some of there stuff is overpriced (which may be sour grapes - as I would love War in the Pacific - but I am never paying $70.00 for a computer game)
It seems to be somewhat of a trend with these guys - that I understand is meant entirely to protect their business -but it also can impact potential market. E.G limiting games' exposure for the reason of getting the money now - imo does nothing but hurt the hobby -or at the very least inhibits its ability to grow. I understand the arguments though - as they are not really very different than the same things I read about hobby distributors putting forth - which pretty much resulted in board wargames being labelled as shelf space sitters/hogs- whereas much more money could be made from collectable card games.
(IMO a more enlightened approach might have been to find a little more shelf space that sh**canning a part of the hobby industry. Personally I think good hobby stuff is what one makes of it.
Me- I got most of the games they originally acquired - and read something a little illogical on the announcement thread -however that was not the right place to post my observation that: "anyone that buys the updated version packages... will get all of the updates for free" (I paraphrased it, I'm sure - but the point is thesame) -- if you buy it -- then it isn't free- is it?
I was hoping they could maybe at the very least have some server space for the patches to the original titles that they (Matrix) acquired- but that might be a little too much to hope for ... I really don't want to fork out more money to buy the same games that I already have (yeh I *get* the arguement -that they would not be the same games -- but trust me - they can't be *that* much different; and I am not into buying the same titles repeatedly --
--in fact I'll go so far as to note that this practice was the Talonsoft "business" model - and it didn't get them too far.
So actually - I hope I'm wrong - but based on my observations -- Matrix has gotten into a trend of overpricing -their stuff, and keeping it so they are pretty much the only distributor of their stuff ( although I did buy a title in a retail shop a few years back - itdoes not seem the norm) --- that can work - but I don't know about anyone else - however I had been burned by the 'you can only get this through us' gimmick a couple of times- only to find the thing on the shelves at say the local EB games - about a year or so later - sometimes a couple of years later - and about $20 -$30 less than the "buy it now or forever lose the opportunity to have this exclusive game" price) --which -well lets just say I like avoiding that practice (although mildly urinated off at feeling ripped off a bit - might be more accurate).
I take my consumer votes to companies that don't engage in this sorta business practice; maybe my game collection suffers - maybe it doesn't - I have enough games anyway - to be in a position to vote with my wallet ( or debit card -to be more accurate :) )
For what its worth.
You people are childish. These forums are a waste. Grow up. Have your little tauntrums all you want. IN fact here. I AM SO HAPPY MATRIX IS BUYING EVERYTHING HOOOO RAAYY. Are you little snots happy then? No quit you pathetic whining. What abeevis and butthead crowd. No you have your way spolied little brats.
I don't believe personal attacks are in order here....even if it's a group wide insult. When someone outlines your grammer and spelling mistakes....maybe take it as constructive critizism(did I spell that right?). We all understand that some people are from non-english speaking countries, so the posts will have a few mistakes. So I am sorry if that offended you. But proofreading your post before hitting the "submit reply" button will correct most of your mistakes.
I am still interested in hearing your answer to my ealier questions. Of course....if it means you are going to continue to have a rant and insult other members, then don't bother. Please refrain froming posting anything on this forum if you can't control your rants.
Cheers,
Ray
@trauth.
WitP is over the top at $70 but I just checked the Matrix store. They have a nice spread of $20 -$50 spread for digital downloads ($10 more for physical). I think this compares favorably with most retail stores. At their sites, Battlefront, HPS and Shrapnel are comparable if not a bit higher.
@Krink It's "criticism".
@trauth.
@Krink It's "criticism".
Thanks....I didn't think it looked right. I'm one of those letter challenged people that can only spell by seeing the word, not spelling it in my head.
Cheers,
And I'm one of those academic types that cringe at such things. You were close, though.
This topic should move on to ask questions like:
1. How much time should Matrix put into these games before re-release?
I assume they will put in the time that best balances improvements made with increased and overall profit from sales. Their call, really.
2. Other than AI, what should be fixed?
I doubt AI will be fixed... many are expecting way to much I think. Something like that really goes too deep, unless the original developers have been sitting on ideas on how to improve their original code all this time. My guess is that they will try to incorporate all the assorted fan mods and scenarios (with the creators' agreement) together with some OOB, balance issues and other historical fixes, and stability issues (obviously problems with XP are unacceptable).
3. Would people accept electronic delivery or retail?
I can't see retail happening. There are occasional exceptions, but it just isn't in their business model. Note that you don't have to download and can order Matrix stuff on CD - but don't expect a printed manual.
I disagree entirely with trauth116, who seems to base the entirety of his comments on the price of one, totally exceptional, game.
There is nothing unreasonable in Matrix pricing. It compares very similarly to HPS, Battlefront and Shrapnel. WitP is expensive, but try and find anyone who has it who doesn't think it was worth the money - you can't criticise the whole product line on the basis of one game even if you could. Its well worth two or more "ordinary" games, both in price and your time.
Other games are priced differently according to what they offer, and the potential market. The Tin Soldiers games at $30 are superb value IMHO, as is Flashpoint Germany at $35 or Highway to the Reich (the best wargame ever written, IMHO) at £40.
For the record, I have no great desire to pay for the same game twice, either. There are three titles at most (one of which I never owned) I expect to buy in re-release form (bundles etc, accepted). But there is no obligation to buy them. Many are expecting way to much from this deal, as I said. I think the best way to look at it is as a way for people who never bought these games first time to get hold of them - I'm really not expecting any substantial improvements. Maybe one or two (TAOW especially springs to mind) may become new 'standards' for PBEM, we'll have to see.
Are Matrix Games over priced?
That's a nearly impossible question Jim.
I don't own WitP simply because it is what it is, a very high priced game, and I am not positive I need it that bad. I know I "want" it, but I want many things (that I also don't have yet, because the price is at war with my ability to justify the expense).
I WOULD own it, if it was a lot less expensive. But at 100 bucks Canadian (that's basically what it comes out as for a Canadian) that's a lot. That's like 3 Tiller PzC titles. And regardless of what one might think of a Tiller title when compared against WitP, 3 of a kind beats a single :)
Now if WitP came out as 60 bucks, I likely would own it. I bought BiN and BiI both equally good games. But they only cost 60 bucks each.
I am not sure BiN is so much more game than PzC Normandy 44 that it deserves to be worth so much more than the PzC title costs. But 60 bucks was not unacceptable to me (remember, I always talk in Canadian dollar amounts eh).
I impulse bought HTTR off the shelf. Chances are I would have settled for digital download. I got both BiN and BiI as digital download. I am not saying I am in love with digital download, but it sure is impulse shopping friendly.
When I have 60 bucks in my pocket, and I think it's time for a treat, I am looking to get something and right now. And I am likely NOT going to wait a week while I figure out how to get to the next city so I can visit the only store in a 40 mile radius from home that "might" have anything I want on a shelf.
That is basically my version of the same sort of lament you occasionally get from the "I don't have broadband" crowd.
Yes not everyone has broad band. But broadband in Central and Southern Ontario is as common as dirt hehe.
In my case though, I have no car, I thus don't get to far to much. And my home town while sizable, is nevertheless a retail desert for software sales.
There is no EB Games, or Futureshop, or BestBuy, or Walmart or any other well established retail location. We have some places that sell software of course, but it is just something stuck in a portion of the whole (and you know how that goes).
Matrix Games doing digital download, is going to make a good deal more cash off of me and faster with digital download, than with retail shelf. Because there isn't any retail shelf option in some places (just as some occasionally just don't have the broadband option).
As I see it, Matrix Games only has operations HPS and Battlefront as well as secondary operations like NWS to compete with. They aren't competing with console sales in a retail chain as far as I am concerned.
That's the RTS and FPS makers problem.
trauth116
09 Oct 05, 14:42
@trauth.
WitP is over the top at $70 but I just checked the Matrix store. They have a nice spread of $20 -$50 spread for digital downloads ($10 more for physical). I think this compares favorably with most retail stores. At their sites, Battlefront, HPS and Shrapnel are comparable if not a bit higher.
@Krink It's "criticism".
Jim - maybe I was looking at this from the point of view of a prospective hobby shop owner- in that - why not offer PC games?
Hertston: actually my comments were based upon the price point of 4 other games that are in the $50-$70 down-load range- which if you wanted a CD -you'd be paying an additional $10.
----------------
I don't think other companies are really that comparable in price point -especially if you buy it from a reseller -other than the company itself. It is fairly easy to point to HPS' website and claim their products cost $50 - but they are also readily available - including on Amazon.com, for at least $15 less -which includes shipping.
To be fair though - I could actually see myself getting that game someday -since it has no competition - topic-wise. Although I suspect it is basically the same concept as Pacific War - with some enhancements for the more advanced machines out today - vis a vis 1990 (Grigsby had done that before with the Steel Panthers - as that game was basically the exact same concept as stuff he did for SSI in the 1980's).
->> Finally to get more on topic- yeh I think I could see getting the Battleground package... and I too wish - that someone would acquire Age of Rifles...
Since the guys @ Matrix seem to be on a roll ... maybe they might .... :halo:
trauth116
09 Oct 05, 14:49
The download part does bring up an interesting sidebar in terms of marketting.
I wonder if they might ever considering licensing downloads @ retail shops? (This is sort of a thought in progress... stream of consciousness if you will)
Say someone -has a hobby shop down in Australia - with a broadband connection -- (maybe they could have registered resellers- or some sort of program) that would allow a resller to download and burn the disk - @ a customer's request ( e.g. say they don't have broadband) -or maybe they are into instant gratification.
Yeh I get that it opens up a can of worms - but I am only looking at it from my point of view - obviously they would have to have some way to protect their rights - just looking for licensing to download, and then burn and resell... if that is even viable.
Oh well never mind that is a little ways off in the future for me... :smoke:
The download part does bring up an interesting sidebar in terms of marketting.
I wonder if they might ever considering licensing downloads @ retail shops? (This is sort of a thought in progress... stream of consciousness if you will)
Say someone -has a hobby shop down in Australia - with a broadband connection -- (maybe they could have registered resellers- or some sort of program) that would allow a resller to download and burn the disk - @ a customer's request ( e.g. say they don't have broadband) -or maybe they are into instant gratification.
Yeh I get that it opens up a can of worms - but I am only looking at it from my point of view - obviously they would have to have some way to protect their rights - just looking for licensing to download, and then burn and resell... if that is even viable.
Oh well never mind that is a little ways off in the future for me... :smoke:
Not such a dumb idea, where law and all that are concerned, it always seems to revolve around precedent. Well I happen to know it is common to get computers with the OS pre installed, and no, you do NOT get a cd or manual or squat in the process. Which leaves you in a bind if you ever actually need that media later.
But there is clearly a process at work that allows vendors to do this.
So, I can't see why it couldn't be done (beyond the obvious piracy paranoia that will inevitably always creep into the discussion).
I for instance, could just as easily contact Matrix Games, and arrange to be a commercial conduit for their games right here in town, media burned to cd and there ya go. I would just need to make it all happen. And then set up the actual business to do it all properly.
In a lot of cases, the only thing stopping people from doing anything, is sufficient will and or interest in doing it.
Don't know what David Heath was doing 10 years ago, but I bet he didn't think he would be doing what he is doing now :) (not entirely that is).
The download part does bring up an interesting sidebar in terms of marketting.
I wonder if they might ever considering licensing downloads @ retail shops? (This is sort of a thought in progress... stream of consciousness if you will)
Say someone -has a hobby shop down in Australia - with a broadband connection -- (maybe they could have registered resellers- or some sort of program) that would allow a resller to download and burn the disk - @ a customer's request ( e.g. say they don't have broadband) -or maybe they are into instant gratification.
Yeh I get that it opens up a can of worms - but I am only looking at it from my point of view - obviously they would have to have some way to protect their rights - just looking for licensing to download, and then burn and resell... if that is even viable.
Oh well never mind that is a little ways off in the future for me... :smoke:
HI
I am working on this very option as we speak. Need I say this is a tricky option but we are working on it now. No promises but lets see what the near future holds.
David
Not such a dumb idea, where law and all that are concerned, it always seems to revolve around precedent. Well I happen to know it is common to get computers with the OS pre installed, and no, you do NOT get a cd or manual or squat in the process. Which leaves you in a bind if you ever actually need that media later.
But there is clearly a process at work that allows vendors to do this.
So, I can't see why it couldn't be done (beyond the obvious piracy paranoia that will inevitably always creep into the discussion).
I for instance, could just as easily contact Matrix Games, and arrange to be a commercial conduit for their games right here in town, media burned to cd and there ya go. I would just need to make it all happen. And then set up the actual business to do it all properly.
In a lot of cases, the only thing stopping people from doing anything, is sufficient will and or interest in doing it.
Don't know what David Heath was doing 10 years ago, but I bet he didn't think he would be doing what he is doing now :) (not entirely that is).
Hi Les
10 Years ago just about this time I was linking up with Bill Wilder and starting the The Gamers Net. It was always a long term goal to do a game company and Matrix Games is the result of my effort.
David
Hi Les
10 Years ago just about this time I was linking up with Bill Wilder and starting the The Gamers Net. It was always a long term goal to do a game company and Matrix Games is the result of my effort.
David
I guess the next question could be, how's the 5 year plan looking :) (I had heard you started Matrix Games with a "5 year plan" in mind).
Man quite a week though. First your company generating a lot of buzz, and now the Battlefront guys have gone and left no joy in mudville making CMx2 modern on first release :)
Hi Les
All of us at Matrix is pretty pump with the Talonsoft deal and looking forward to working on those games. As for the CMx2 news really hadn't changed my feelings on the game. I was and still am looking forward to CMx2.
As for the 5 year plan....hahahahhaha I changed that plan so many times and I think that is one of the most important abilities of a modern company like Matrix. Someone once said a plan works great until first contact with the enemy and couldn't agree more.
David
trauth116
10 Oct 05, 22:13
HI
I am working on this very option as we speak. Need I say this is a tricky option but we are working on it now. No promises but lets see what the near future holds.
David
Hi David: understood the no promises part -as I totally understand that it is about protecting your rights as a company, and that isn't easy.
Otoh, any news like this is good news, and I appreciate the feedback.
Steve
Bloodstar
13 Oct 05, 04:16
It make perfect sence to me. I dont care if you dont understand.. I dont care if you think its dumb. You will not debate me out of my opinon. Wheather you like the opinion or not.
I dont like it I wont ever like it. I dont care for what matrix is doing and thats it.
Age of Rifles as I understand it is a Norm Koger game. Why not ask him to touch it up? I think I saw it on a Abandonware. And then you could get it and work with it.
I will never be convinced that this kind of consolidation is moving anything forward. Nor did CS recquire anything further "enhancement" IMO. There are only two things that needed fixing and I really dont think buying and re selling the game was nescessary to do so. The quick about loading and unloading and then random battles deployment mess.
One other thing. theblitz.org did attempt to buy the rights and I think there were other offers in that past.
Bravo! I agree with you...
Mario
Man quite a week though. First your company generating a lot of buzz, and now the Battlefront guys have gone and left no joy in mudville making CMx2 modern on first release :)
I wish I could share your enthusiasm, Les. I must admit my heart sank when I saw the scenario for the game. Modern, sure.. and I understand their comments about WW2 fatigue and the utility of using a modern setting as a testing ground for stuff they would need in all periods, but Syria? What sort of matches are you going to get out of that? A Tom Clancy style China or Nationalist Russia would have been great, as would a late Cold-War Europe scenario, or Arab-Israeli `67 &`73 but the US of A beating up on the Arabs again (and a small subset of them at that) doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Apache's against T55s? It may be new to CM, but its reached its sell-buy date everywhere else.
Roll on game 2 - Stalingrad anybody? ;)
I assume they will put in the time that best balances improvements made with increased and overall profit from sales. Their call, really.
I doubt AI will be fixed... many are expecting way to much I think. Something like that really goes too deep, unless the original developers have been sitting on ideas on how to improve their original code all this time. My guess is that they will try to incorporate all the assorted fan mods and scenarios (with the creators' agreement) together with some OOB, balance issues and other historical fixes, and stability issues (obviously problems with XP are unacceptable).
I can't see retail happening. There are occasional exceptions, but it just isn't in their business model. Note that you don't have to download and can order Matrix stuff on CD - but don't expect a printed manual.
I disagree entirely with trauth116, who seems to base the entirety of his comments on the price of one, totally exceptional, game.
There is nothing unreasonable in Matrix pricing. It compares very similarly to HPS, Battlefront and Shrapnel. WitP is expensive, but try and find anyone who has it who doesn't think it was worth the money - you can't criticise the whole product line on the basis of one game even if you could. Its well worth two or more "ordinary" games, both in price and your time.
Other games are priced differently according to what they offer, and the potential market. The Tin Soldiers games at $30 are superb value IMHO, as is Flashpoint Germany at $35 or Highway to the Reich (the best wargame ever written, IMHO) at £40.
For the record, I have no great desire to pay for the same game twice, either. There are three titles at most (one of which I never owned) I expect to buy in re-release form (bundles etc, accepted). But there is no obligation to buy them. Many are expecting way to much from this deal, as I said. I think the best way to look at it is as a way for people who never bought these games first time to get hold of them - I'm really not expecting any substantial improvements. Maybe one or two (TAOW especially springs to mind) may become new 'standards' for PBEM, we'll have to see.
I agree with this whole post except on one issue.
There are quite a few people that were/are upset with WitP and have abandoned it while some, who still play it feel the game is over-priced for what it delivers. I am not one of those people and would have paid more for the game.
I think what it comes down to is that certain games, like WitP is a niche inside a niche and for 2by3 to be able to atleast break even, they needed to price the title higher. I'm comfortable with that solution because if the choice is WitP at $70 or no WitP because it is cost prohibitive to produce, then I'll gladly fork out the $70.
My only real beef with matrix is that they haven't lived up to producing the title that brought many closecombat fans over. After the demise of atomic games/close combat series, matrix had proposed to take over the mantle and design a similar game. This game then divided into 2 parts, the steel panthers clone and closecombat clone. This was back in 2000 I believe. It's not 2005 and still nothing on either game.
Now there are plenty of other great games that they offer and I really enjoy having the digital download option, but their not finishing these games has been a let down on my end.
I wish I could share your enthusiasm, Les. I must admit my heart sank when I saw the scenario for the game. Modern, sure.. and I understand their comments about WW2 fatigue and the utility of using a modern setting as a testing ground for stuff they would need in all periods, but Syria? What sort of matches are you going to get out of that? A Tom Clancy style China or Nationalist Russia would have been great, as would a late Cold-War Europe scenario, or Arab-Israeli `67 &`73 but the US of A beating up on the Arabs again (and a small subset of them at that) doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Apache's against T55s? It may be new to CM, but its reached its sell-buy date everywhere else.
Roll on game 2 - Stalingrad anybody? ;)
Yes, to my knowledge, the CMx2 decision might make a bit "more" sense, if it was pitting the US war machine against something other than Syria. I have scant few reasons to offer why they didn't pick say China. Other than it might piss off China to be portrayed as "the other side". But other than that sort of logic, I'm unable to fathom Syria as a choice.
To quote Reiryc (without copying his whole post).
"My only real beef with matrix is that they haven't lived up to producing the title that brought many closecombat fans over. After the demise of atomic games/close combat series, matrix had proposed to take over the mantle and design a similar game. This game then divided into 2 parts, the steel panthers clone and closecombat clone. This was back in 2000 I believe. It's not 2005 and still nothing on either game."
I think over all, that is what bugs most people the most where Combat Leader is concerned. It was the great wargame hope, and it never showed up. And years went by, and great games came, and came, and some more came. And the great wargame hope is still not here. And regardless of what any on it's development team want to say, I really don't think we will be seeing it any time soon.
But you can add that to my list of things I would not mind horribly being wrong about :)
... now the Battlefront guys have gone and left no joy in mudville making CMx2 modern on first release :)
A little OT for this forum, but THIS one I can get excited about :cheeky:
Combat Mission Campaigns (http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmc/index.html)
A little OT for this forum, but THIS one I can get excited about :cheeky:
Combat Mission Campaigns (http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmc/index.html)
Only real connection I guess, is the CMx2 news has set off a lot of babble, just as the Talonsoft news has set off a lot of babble here there and everywhere lately.
To quote Reiryc (without copying his whole post).
"My only real beef with matrix is that they haven't lived up to producing the title that brought many closecombat fans over. After the demise of atomic games/close combat series, matrix had proposed to take over the mantle and design a similar game. This game then divided into 2 parts, the steel panthers clone and closecombat clone. This was back in 2000 I believe. It's not 2005 and still nothing on either game."
I think over all, that is what bugs most people the most where Combat Leader is concerned. It was the great wargame hope, and it never showed up. And years went by, and great games came, and came, and some more came. And the great wargame hope is still not here. And regardless of what any on it's development team want to say, I really don't think we will be seeing it any time soon.
But you can add that to my list of things I would not mind horribly being wrong about :)
I wanted to also post this here as well.
Guys
To be honest its not publishing other games that slows anything down its just running the company that kills Matrix staff. We are very hard at work and should have some very nice updates soon for Close Assault. Combat Leader is another issue. The game is just moving from a design point the way the team wanted. In fact in some way I may decide to start over. I am not going to release a game I am not happy with and is near and dear to my heart. I understand everyone wants this game to be release but I am not going to release something that is just not what we wanted. I am sorry that its taking longer then even I expected but I going to do it right or not at all. Let me add this last bit in as well. These Talonsoft projects DO NOT in any way slow down or take away resources for any other projects. In fact the community really is helping in leaps at bounds over what I had expected.
David Heath
Matrix Games
That's interesting news David (about the CL game).
I would rather the game was ripped apart and started over, if it wandered off the path you wanted it on.
Better the game is what you had in mind, than just a game you ended up with.
Hmm it will be 2006 soon, I suppose I will want games in 2006. And the year after will be 2007, and assuming I ain't dead, I figure I will want wargames that year as well. Come to think of it, I hope I don't stop wanting wargames, that would really suck.
It wouldn't be like I have never started something in the shop, only to find I thought it sucked, and decided to start over (actually been there a lot hehe).
Well, short of the world coming to an end David, I suppose most of us *****y wargamers will still be waiting for you to deliver it hehe.
That's interesting news David (about the CL game).
I would rather the game was ripped apart and started over, if it wandered off the path you wanted it on.
Better the game is what you had in mind, than just a game you ended up with.
Hmm it will be 2006 soon, I suppose I will want games in 2006. And the year after will be 2007, and assuming I ain't dead, I figure I will want wargames that year as well. Come to think of it, I hope I don't stop wanting wargames, that would really suck.
It wouldn't be like I have never started something in the shop, only to find I thought it sucked, and decided to start over (actually been there a lot hehe).
Well, short of the world coming to an end David, I suppose most of us *****y wargamers will still be waiting for you to deliver it hehe.
I understand wanting the game.... heck I want the game but its got to be done right. Ask our developers we do not force complete dates. We want it right but I want it right. Matrix is not here to demand products at a set date. We are the publisher and our job is to aid the developers in reaching the project goals not making them reach ours.
Many developers have been months and months late and we won awards for those designs. What is the number one reason developers give when their games suck. Well the publisher push it out the door and didn't give us enough time to complete it. That will NOT happen here.
We had a major hand in the design and development of Uncommon Valor, War in the Pacific, so we are not doing nothing either. I agree we made you wait some game and a while at that but we also giving many other games to try as we develop these projects.
Here is a quick and dirty update on some of our projects.
Combined Arms: World War II is moving right along and work is currently on the AI. We wanted this out this year but I needed management help running Matrix and Erik step up and help so this project is behind.
Conquest of the Aegean is a Panther Games design and we are waiting until Dave from Panther says its good to go.
Empires In Arms, we have outside development studio working on this and from what I am told its really just being beta tested and having bug fixed that are found. This one should be soon.
World in Flames we never gave a due date and warned it was years away. Currently work on it is Very active. The progress is well documented on the Matrix Games forums if you want more details.
Close Assault is pretty close. I expect within the next two months we will have something very cool things to show you. This is not counting a few other projects as well.
So don't hate us just yet. :laugh:
David Heath
Matrix Games
To be honest, I didn't even expect comment on Close Assault :)
You sure must have quite the day David prowling all these forums eh. I have it easy, just sitting around watching paint fade on the wall.
But I see you out there (on more than just a few forums) David, and if nothing else, people should be aware, you do put out a lot effort making sure people get input.
I understand wanting the game.... heck I want the game but its got to be done right. Ask our developers we do not force complete dates. We want it right but I want it right. Matrix is not here to demand products at a set date. We are the publisher and our job is to aid the developers in reaching the project goals not making them reach ours.
Many developers have been months and months late and we won awards for those designs. What is the number one reason developers give when their games suck. Well the publisher push it out the door and didn't give us enough time to complete it. That will NOT happen here.
We had a major hand in the design and development of Uncommon Valor, War in the Pacific, so we are not doing nothing either. I agree we made you wait some game and a while at that but we also giving many other games to try as we develop these projects.
Here is a quick and dirty update on some of our projects.
Combined Arms: World War II is moving right along and work is currently on the AI. We wanted this out this year but I needed management help running Matrix and Erik step up and help so this project is behind.
Conquest of the Aegean is a Panther Games design and we are waiting until Dave from Panther says its good to go.
Empires In Arms, we have outside development studio working on this and from what I am told its really just being beta tested and having bug fixed that are found. This one should be soon.
World in Flames we never gave a due date and warned it was years away. Currently work on it is Very active. The progress is well documented on the Matrix Games forums if you want more details.
Close Assault is pretty close. I expect within the next two months we will have something very cool things to show you. This is not counting a few other projects as well.
So don't hate us just yet. :laugh:
David Heath
Matrix Games
Appreciate the updates...
No hate from me, just a bit of disappointment in that we haven't seen a good close combat replacement yet. GiCombat and EYSA were good attempts, but I don't think the programmer was up to snuff to make the game what it should have been. The idea is basically close combat in 3D, but it failed when it came time for the men to act in ways that seemed probable in both the psychology and actions department. Such as having men set up postion outside the front of a house facing the enemy while most of the squad was hiding inside. Having your heavy weapon in a platoon sit doing nothing in a building while 2 of your riflemen use the door/window to fire out...
I tested both products and gave my input but I just don't think the programmer was able to get things done right because even when he tried, he just couldn't make it happen on some things.
Anyways, I'm all for close assault being a good product out the door. I just wish that it took a greater priority as it seemed to have back in 2000.
All in all though, I really enjoy the products you guys put out and have bought quite a few with money ready to be spent on quite a few upcoming titles.
This whole thread has angered me a lot, mostly not because of its content specifically, but because of how many times I keep coming across stuff like this… I don’t post all that often anymore and I therefore have a lot I’d like to say to no one person in general….
Complaint #1: Matrix games cost too much!
I paid $65 for AH’s the Longest Day at a time where most other wargames from AH were priced about $25 - $30. Did I go around saying don’t buy AH games because they charge too much? NO. It was one special “Monster Game”. Maybe the justification was more apparent back then because it was physically more stuff.. But the situation with Matrix is no different. WiTP is ONE game priced that high. And whether or not you can believe that significantly more work went into it or not vs a game half the price there is unmistakable truth in the fact that the game is for a niche of a niche and therefore could never sell in quite the quantities another wargame could (which is already a small enough quantity as it is).
Whether or not each of us thinks wargaming is dying or not… I think we can all agree on the fact that it is not growing in any significant way. A game has to have some remote hope of profitability to generally be made. All you do every time you b!tch about the price of WiTP is put one more nail in the coffin of any future potential games of that complexity and magnitude.
Is that what you really want?
Complaint #2: I’m not paying for the same game again!
No one says you have to and certainly no one is forcing you to. Whether or not you see value in purchasing the game again is up to you. I would try to argue that every dollar you spend on wargaming helps and advances our hobby further, but I know I wouldn’t get very far with that line of reasoning…
Realize that not everyone owns every single Talonsoft title already. I know I don’t. Perhaps because Operational games were never really my favorite and they seemed to have a lot of them. Maybe I had just selected other titles or wargames at the time. But in either case TOAW was one of the few operational level games that I liked. And as I only really had an opportunity to purchase and play TOAW2 as I remember it, I am among those that would love to purchase the complete product and know that it is supported, will work on my system, and will not require me to hunt around for info on how to get it patched and up to snuff.
Not everyone who buys these re-releases will have owned the original game or any Talonsoft game for that matter…
Complaint #3: Matrix is gobbling up all the wargames!
No Major Publisher will even LOOK at a wargame these days. Almost every computer wargame publishing company that ever had a title In stores is now defunct. I personally can’t even count much past half a dozen companies that even publish wargame titles regularly. I’m not going to quite say that Matrix has somehow come to the rescue but, to me, if you’re a fan of computer wargames and you refuse to buy Matrix titles based on whatever reasoning, then your really no fan of wargaming at all.
Why? Because what would you have happen? Matrix goes out of business? That would show them for pricing WiTP so high right? How would that help any of us? Not only would we loose one of an already far too few wargame publishing companies but we would send yet another message to would be start-up or other publishing companies that wargaming simply can’t be a profitable venture. Yeah that’s exactly what we want…
Furthermore, Matrix has supported far more smaller and first-time developers than ANY publisher anywhere near their size has. This is where the future of wargaming lies, there are only so many existing titles out there. If you kill Matrix many of those current and future developers will die off as well…
Complaint #4: Combat Leader is taking FOREVER and will never be completed!
Combat Leader could have been just a remake of SPWAW. Heck some people still claim exactly that. But it set out to be much more than that. It was ambitious yes, probably far too ambitious. But it is easy (and fast) to churn out the same game over and over again. Every OTHER game genre out there has been doing this for years. Why take the time, money, and risk of creating an innovative title when you can simply take a known formula that works, mix things up a bit, and have another game out in months? Why else do you think we see so many versions of Age of Empires/ Command&Conquer/ Doom/etc? Even large development companies get their innovative game ideas turned down regularly because of risk. An Age of Empires clone has a certain guaranteed sell rate based on its much much lower developmental costs.
A fresh new game design takes a LOT more time. There is a certain guaranteed amount of trial and error to it. It’s certainly going to take far longer than a mere clone of something else.
Its main programmer, as I understand it, also has a full time job. Not that uncommon in todays world for wargame developers. If you want to help this not be the case, buy more wargames!
It now looks like it may well be scrapped and started again? Welcome back to the trial and error part. Some things just don’t work out when you set out to do something new and different (and Grand in this case as so many of us have such high hopes for such a title).
I think its commendable, and selfless of Matrix Games to be committed to producing the best possible game regardless of the time required (and hence, in many ways, the cost and effort as well).
Complaint #5: Matrix has too much on its plate already!
Why is it that so many think every single title bearing any association with Matrix Games is being worked on by the same 2 or 3 programmers? Game Publishing companies PUBLISH GAMES, they don’t necessarily make them directly. Sometimes it’s even a completely finished game a publishing company will sign on and publish, having virtually no input on game design, graphics, etc.
Now certainly Matrix IS busy, and may well be starting to be in need of purchasing a bigger plate, but the thought that each new title signed on is somehow robbing from the progress or integrity of the others is ludicrous…
Complaint #6: Matrix has profit, and not the gamer in mind!
I’m not even going to address this one. Because if you’ve read my responses to all the complaints above and would still state this… Well draw your own conclusions…
To the one related statement though, that refers to a preference to have had one or more talonsoft titles released freely as open-source I would say pretty much the same thing I say to those who insist their freebie ports to Cyberboard/Vassal are better than what Wargame Publishers are putting out these days (because they don’t cost anything and were made by wargamers for wargamers (With the gamer in mind!))…
And I would say..NOW WHO IS BEING GREEDY? Yes you are. You want it for free. Who cares about the future of our hobby as long as I don’t have to shell out cash for anything? It is no different. The world is built on money. You want to save it, others want you to spend it.
And votes with your dollar therefore are some of the most powerful votes. But as I’ve said earlier why on earth would you want to vote against wargaming?
Complaint #7: Matrix Games is trying to exploit free laborers!
God forbid you help a company like Matrix because they can make some money off your efforts? Isn’t that exactly what playtesting has been since the beginning of time? I know when I playtested for Avalon Hill I didn’t get paid and I’d like to think they made a lot more money because of my efforts. In that way I helped the hobby I loved and had a great time doing it. I also helped a game I loved be that much better so it could be enjoyed by that many more people with the same hobby as myself.
Why necessarily pay people for something that other equally, if not more qualified people will do for free? Simply because they have strong opinions on the game and perhaps value the early involvement and sense of accomplishment that comes out of being part of a project like that.
Complaint #8 You’re a Matrix Fan-Boy!
If you call me this then it is likely because you have no reasonable dispute for any of the above. You should also know that several Matrix titles are included in my original disappointment in many wargames today. But I do feel that Matrix’s heart is in the right place, and has the wargamer in mind to the absolute greatest extent possible for a company that has to be and/or become profitable. I believe there are a few key differences with Matrix, which I’ve previously pointed out elsewhere in this post, but ALL publishers and developers of wargames I try to support. Even certain members of Battlefront’s staff, who at times seem to be oddly compelled to badmouth Matrix.
And In Summary!
As a few of you may know, I’ve been developing my own wargames for the past year now. I have a well paying full-time job and have absolutely no real reason I am forced to develop wargames. And even though I do plan on making money, there are probably far quicker and easier ways in which I could do so. While I am sure that may come across to some as a bit arrogant, it is stated as background and preface to the following:
If I didn’t know better I’d think all wargamers were nothing but a bunch of grumpy, and broke, former fans of the hobby. It is so disheartening to continually read how no one seems happy with anything currently happening in this hobby. Maybe everyone is still holding grudges from what happened to Avalon Hill, I don’t know. But it sure doesn’t seem like much of a positive attitude bunch. Perhaps forums by definition are the place where people come to b!tch, as everyone else is hopefully actually busy happily playing wargames.
Now me? I use to b!tch too. One need only read my original Game Design Philosophy to realize I am not that happy with a lot of games out there. But I’d like to think that I rose above that and decided to actually do something about it.. Hence I started my own Game Development Company.
Now certainly everyone is not going to have the knowledge, the know-how, the money, or even the time to do so but you can further the hobby in other ways.
If nothing else, be SUPPORTIVE of ALL wargame developers and ALL wargame publishers that are out there. If for no other reason than that it can only indirectly help the emergence of other wargame developers and publishers and the ultimate growth of the hobby. I know I’m not the only wargame developer that has on occasion wondered why he bothers for what at times appears as such an ungrateful bunch.........
sickofnames
15 Oct 05, 00:53
Again why peopl insist on making this so persoonal. They do cost to much.l It has nothing to do with being a fan of anything. People arent made of money. I dont care who will touch a title. I dont like monopolys.
As far as release dates. Dont promo things aor set a relase date unless yoru sure its ready. Otherwise people will complain. Why sholdnt they?
Slefless? You jsut talked about profictably. I dont find these practices it at commendable all.
They are overworked or they wouldnt be assking for "volunteers"
This shout up and like it attiude wont do anything but irritate people. Is that what you want?
Again why people take all this so seriously is really silly. Guys liek Aries just getting nasty over a differing opinon. Life is tough kiddies and not eveyrbody will do what you want or think what you think. Time to face that fact and get over it.
I dont see this issue or some of the others as postive. Some invation and varitey would be nice.
Who is being greedy. They are. Noobdy said anyting about wanting it for free. They want to save some cash. Cause the world of made of money. Throwing money at a compnay doesnt have anything to do with the future of any hobby.
I support those that are in it for the hobby not the profit. If making your own is being a pain sell it to matrix.
Ungrateful? Whatever that statmeent is ludicris. FAN BOY :laugh:
Dont cry because nobdy is bowing to you or them. Neither of you deserve it.
Again why peopl insist on making this so persoonal. They do cost to much.l It has nothing to do with being a fan of anything. People arent made of money.
My response was directed at no one person. A response like "People arent made of money" typically means you don't have much. Now I won't fault you for that but will suggest that part of your anger stems from your inability to afford the title. On the otherhand I would suggest that if your really such a fan and spend as much time playing it as you would allude to. That any further investment on your part, assuming something gained in return, would be WELL worth the money. I won't use the tired "Movie Theatre Ticket" analogy but for a game that you spend so much time playing how would it not be worth the money?
I dont care who will touch a title. I dont like monopolys.
If Matrix has a monopoly on Wargames its not in anyway their own doing. Its not like they ran the competition out of business or even bought them all out. The others have failed on their own or decided to sell. You need to investigate further what a monopoly actually is.
As far as release dates. Dont promo things aor set a relase date unless yoru sure its ready. Otherwise people will complain. Why sholdnt they?
This is true, but the alternative is far more damaging to wargame development. Early announcement and public involvement allows for a better end product. Even Matrix, with all their billions of dollars, can't afford a large enough staff to fully hide every game in house for the first 4/5ths of its development cycle. There aren't enough wargamers out there.
Slefless? You jsut talked about profictably. I dont find these practices it at commendable all.
Having trouble interpreting this but if your refering to my desire to make profitable games I'd add that the minimum requirement is simply that I come close to breaking even. This means the money spent on the business itself and things like graphics development, not necessarily all my time. And as I had tried to state, and there is simply no way to say without coming across as arrogant, there are other more profitable things I could be doing than making wargames. And furthermore I am not so rich that I can buy the expensive graphics work for all my games and not make it back somehow.
They are overworked or they wouldnt be assking for "volunteers"
I don't see this as all that much different than a playtester request. Often game companies will pick playtesters that are familiar with other similar games due to the fact that they may well have more to contribute that someone that could be hired on for the job. And no one ever said that in no cases such volunteers are compensated in anyway. Often, at the very least, they are given a free copy of the game and ample credit within it. Other compensation is often based upon the level of contribution. In extreme cases a playtester might even be invited to work as a paid designer/developer of future titles.
This shout up and like it attiude wont do anything but irritate people. Is that what you want?
It doesn't bother me one bit your opinion. Obviously it came from somewhere. But you might want to be open to the fact that you might not have enough background on exactly who and what Matrix Games is and where they came from.
Again why people take all this so seriously is really silly. Guys liek Aries just getting nasty over a differing opinon. Life is tough kiddies and not eveyrbody will do what you want or think what you think. Time to face that fact and get over it.
I believe its unlikely anything I say will change your opinion. My response is aimed at the often greater number of silent types who might be somewhere in the greyer area..
I dont see this issue or some of the others as postive. Some invation and varitey would be nice.
Who is being greedy. They are. Noobdy said anyting about wanting it for free. They want to save some cash. Cause the world of made of money. Throwing money at a compnay doesnt have anything to do with the future of any hobby.
Well, though I can certainly see how it could look that way, I'm hardly asking for you to send donations out to Game Publishers and Developers. Nor am I asking you to buy a game that you have no interest in. I'm merely suggesting that you use your money to vote for wargaming and not for one wargaming company vs another. They, and many others, need to be around for the hobby to grow.
I support those that are in it for the hobby not the profit.
You've got to be kidding me? Anyone with enough talent to make a wargame is smart enough and talented enough to make more money elsewhere. We all chose to do this for love of the hobby, or at least the far greater majority. Your statements sound more and more like your an unemployed welfare recipient or something. As if the real reason you don't support wargame developers and publishers is because you are completely financially incapable of it.
If making your own is being a pain sell it to matrix.
This just proves that you have no understanding of what the differences are between a developer and a publisher. Yet you want to dictate how everything should be.
Ungrateful? Whatever that statmeent is ludicris. FAN BOY :laugh:
I was most certain you would think so. You give others no respect so in return you'll not get any either.
Dont cry because nobdy is bowing to you or them. Neither of you deserve it.
Whether you are a foreigner or not, your postings are mostly incoherent, impulsive, and generally vague in meaning. I posted for the benefit of others and not to yourself. I mostly don't understand what your saying so it is hard to address you directly.
Though, in this post, I have made that attempt..
Hypocrisy seems to be the order of the day...
Again why peopl insist on making this so persoonal.
FAN BOY
Hmm...
Life is tough kiddies and not eveyrbody will do what you want or think what you think. Time to face that fact and get over it.
Slefless? You jsut talked about profictably. I dont find these practices it at commendable all.
I find it interesting that in one breath you tell others to 'get over it' yet in the next your are complaining about 'monopolys' (sic)... Is there a reason you haven't gotten over this supposed 'monopoly' yourself?
As far as release dates. Dont promo things aor set a relase date unless yoru sure its ready. Otherwise people will complain. Why sholdnt they?
Why indeed? What the relevance of that is I'm not sure, as if there's one games publisher I know that doesn't announce release dates ahead of time, its Matrix. I seem to recall Gary Grigsby's World at War was advertised in Armchair General a little prematurely, but I suspect that was more a result of publishing deadlines rather than anything else. The only other 'promotion' they do is announce titles and set up a web site for them - just like everybody else.
Slefless? You jsut talked about profictably. I dont find these practices it at commendable all.
Not sure what you mean by that. Matrix Games are a business. Businesses exist to make profit. That's a fundamental fact of economic life.
Games sales must cover costs (including staff salaries) as a basic minimum, and ideally generate a profit that can be paid to those who have invested money in the company. Matrix is also a business run by people who work very, very hard, and could probably make far more money much more easily doing something else. They have the right to be rewarded for their labour just like anyone else... you think they should pay themselves less just so you can afford to buy more games?
Prices are therefore set at the level, in their estimation, that will generate the most profit on a game taking into account number of sales and the money made on each one. Not everyone will agree with pricing, and not everyone will be able to afford each game, in which case you can't buy them. I would love a Ferrari, but they are overpriced and I can't afford one! Every business is the same, sometimes (as here) those involved love what they do, but if it doesn't make a profit it goes bust. Simple.
They are overworked or they wouldnt be assking for "volunteers"
They are involving people who have been involved with these games for years (especially TOAW), many of whom have almost developer-level expertise. When so much work has already been done on these titles it would be utterly senseless to completely ignore it.... and such involvement (as far as I can judge, not being a part of it) has the full support of the community. With one exception, anyway... ;)
Who is being greedy. They are. Noobdy said anyting about wanting it for free. They want to save some cash. Cause the world of made of money. Throwing money at a compnay doesnt have anything to do with the future of any hobby.
See above. You seem to forget that for you its a hobby. To them its a livelihood, and how they pay their mortgages and feed their families.
I support those that are in it for the hobby not the profit.
In which case good luck to you. There are some good freeware titles out there, a few of which were never actually commercial titles, released to make a profit for publisher and developer. That does not include games like, say, Steel Panthers: World at War which the evil money-grabbing Matrix suits are still giving away for free.
Ungrateful?
Yes, to be brutally honest, you are. Without companies like Matrix (and, believe it or not, Battlefront, Shrapnel and HPS all exist to make a profit, too), there would be no hobby. Some of us can remember the time when you would buy each and every wargame that was released by anybody - it didn't cost much as