penetration calculation problem

[Kovi]

Hi fellow Generals!

I'm still learning the game and I have encountered a problem when studying the combat logs. The attack penetration chances are totally irrealistic (doesn't work as they are expected). Here are some examples:

Chance of penetration on PzKpfw V Panther [4] by P-47 Thunderbolt (late) [2] is 100%.
(comment: this should be 25%)

Chance of penetration on PzKpfw V Panther [13] by Light Rifle Squad [1] is 24%.
(comment: this should be 0%)

Anyone has an idea why is this?
I'm using ACOW with 1.06 patch.

Kovi

PS:
As this is my first post here, let me introduce myself a bit. I have been playing computer strategy games for quite a long time. I had been involved with PBEM in the "panzer general era" for many years. Later I departed to play on-line strategy games. But one month ago I have decided to restart my wargaming interest with toaw (acow).

[Mantis]

While I can't speak for the values in the DB, Kovi, I just wanted to drop you a quick line and welcome you to the community!

Enjoy!

[Siberian HEAT]

Let me be the first to welcome you! You'll find a good crowd here, and I am sure an answer to your question will be forthcoming. Generally speaking, you can't take everything in the equipment database or combat results at face value as there are usually mitigating factors that you don't immediately see.

[Siberian HEAT]

Dammit Shane!

Then let me be the first to introduce the banana dance!


:violin: :clap: :banana: :clap: :violin:

[Mantis]

Are you kidding? It took everything I had not to comment on the 'penetration calculation problems' subject in my own particular 'bent'...

ROFLMAO

[Mantis]

New users get one chance, so now I have to write down that Kovi's used his... The NEXT time you provide me with such a straight line, Kovi, you're asking for what you get!

:freak:

[Kovi]

Thanks for welcome :)

Originally posted by Siberian HEAT
Generally speaking, you can't take everything in the equipment database or combat results at face value as there are usually mitigating factors that you don't immediately see.

Here is the calculation taken from the on-line help:


ANTI-ARMOR CHANCE TO DEFEAT ARMOR, PER HIT

pq=100xANTI-ARMOR/DEFENSIVE ARMOR CHANCE TO KILL

100+ 100%
99...25 ((pq^2)/100)%
24- 0%

This means there is no chance to kill armor unless the firing weapon has at least 25% of the nominal penetration necessary to defeat the target's armor. Because of the square involved, the chance to kill declines rapidly with decreasing pq (penetration quotient). Defensive armor values are divided by three during penetration checks when attacked by aircraft.


The above log lines included everything (defensive armor value and anti-armor value) which is needed for the calculation, but the "calculated" percent chance are incorrect.

I have also checked the forum and found a thread from MikeJ

http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2451&highlight=penetration

with a log-line almost idendical to one of the above, but his line has the correct percent chance:


Chance of penetration on PzKpfw V Panther [4] by P-47 Thunderbolt (late) [2] is 25%.

[Menschenfresser]

Oh, how I wish everything in my life had the ability to print out detailed combat results...I then might have a better grasp of my own...well...problems.

Welcome! If you're looking for a PBEM game, just post. Soon you'll have more suitors than you can handle.

And if you ever have to ask yourself, 'Are they still talking about wargaming?' The answer is always...and I mean always...Yes.

[Kovi]

Originally posted by Mantis
New users get one chance, so now I have to write down that Kovi's used his... The NEXT time you provide me with such a straight line, Kovi, you're asking for what you get!

:freak:


Originally posted by Menschenfresser
And if you ever have to ask yourself, 'Are they still talking about wargaming?' The answer is always...and I mean always...Yes.

Sure. :cheeky:

[JAMiAM]

Originally posted by Kovi
Hi fellow Generals!

I'm still learning the game and I have encountered a problem when studying the combat logs. The attack penetration chances are totally irrealistic (doesn't work as they are expected). Here are some examples:

Chance of penetration on PzKpfw V Panther [4] by P-47 Thunderbolt (late) [2] is 100%.
(comment: this should be 25%)

Chance of penetration on PzKpfw V Panther [13] by Light Rifle Squad [1] is 24%.
(comment: this should be 0%)

Anyone has an idea why is this?
I'm using ACOW with 1.06 patch.



Something is definitely wrong. Where did you get the patch? What scenario are you playing? Have you used any altered executables (i.e. modified with the Bio-ed?) Do you still have the TOAWlog file?

[Kovi]

Originally posted by JAMiAM


Something is definitely wrong. Where did you get the patch? What scenario are you playing? Have you used any altered executables (i.e. modified with the Bio-ed?) Do you still have the TOAWlog file?

I have used the full 1.06 patch (found here at warfarehq site).
I didn't mentioned, but those irrealistic armor penet. calculation are not rare/random, those are standard (actually I haven't seen any ineffective hit except from light infantries or trucks) with my installation.
Anyway in the meantime I made a reinstall and it seems that version 1.03 didn't have that problem....
Neither version 1.04.

[JAMiAM]

Originally posted by Kovi


I have used the full 1.06 patch (found here at warfarehq site).
I didn't mentioned, but those irrealistic armor penet. calculation are not rare/random, those are standard (actually I haven't seen any ineffective hit except from light infantries or trucks) with my installation.
Anyway in the meantime I made a reinstall and it seems that version 1.03 didn't have that problem....
Neither version 1.04.

****! That patch is screwed up! I'd suggest everyone currently playing with it, uninstall and only patch to 1.04. I just ran a quick test and sure enough, you've got crazy **** like Heavy MG's having a 100% chance of penetration against Panthers. Oh boy...heads are going to roll on this...:hurt:

[Mantis]

This needs to be taken to Norm, but unfortuantely, he's been non-responsive lately. Hopefully, we'll be able to get through to him, and apprise him of these facts.

Brian, would you care to copy and paste the relevent text from this and the Jam patch thread (ommitting the title :D) and send it to him with something eye-grabbing as a subject header?

Perhaps request a read receipt?

[Chuck?]

Damn, I hate being right! Guessed there would be issues.

[Touchdown]

Originally posted by Kovi
I'm still learning the game and I have encountered a problem when studying the combat logs.

:hmmm: Umm ok where can I find these detailed Combat logs?? I just looked everywhere in the game menus. Please enlighten me!

[MikeJ]

Run the game with the -toawlog command switch. IT will create the log text file in the root TOAW directory named "toaw_log.txt".

Everytime you restart the game that log file wipes itself clean as to keep it relatively modest in size.

[Touchdown]

Wow that's alot of Info! heh heh... Thanks again MikeJ

[gen Caviglia]

Originally posted by MikeJ
Run the game with the -toawlog command switch. IT will create the log text file in the root TOAW directory named "toaw_log.txt".

Everytime you restart the game that log file wipes itself clean as to keep it relatively modest in size.

Do you know any other command switch option?

[Kraut2]

Originally posted by gen Caviglia


Do you know any other command switch option?

Unsupported Features for Power Users


TOAW has a number of hidden features that were originally developed for debugging purposes, or as quick and dirty utilities for use by in-house scenario designers. These features are not officially supported (which is why they are hidden from casual users and were undocumented until now), but some have interesting applications. Use them at your own risk.



Command Line Switches


TOAW has a number of hidden features that can only be turned on by use of the command line. Most are only useful for scenario designers. Two: polog and toawlog, can be useful to players who might wish to “look under the hood” after a gaming session. The po_log.txt and toaw_log.txt files can be examined using any text editor that can load large files. It is not uncommon for the log files to exceed 10 MB in size.



To insert a command line parameter into a shortcut used to launch TOAW you will need to right click on the shortcut (details vary slightly depending upon which version of Windows you are using and how you have your shortcuts set up) and select “properties”. In the “target” field, enter a space after “exe”, followed by the command line switch you wish to use. Separate multiple switches by a space. If the target field appears within quotes, place your command line switch inside the quotes.



nodelay – Useful for debugging scenarios in computer vs. computer play mode, this option turns off many of the small timer controlled delays and animations in the game. The effect is most noticeable on faster machines.
noupdate - Useful for debugging scenarios in computer vs. computer play mode, this option turns off many of the screen updates in the game. The effect is most noticeable on slower machines. This option should not be used when playing the game, as some of the updates are necessary for normal play purposes. A combination of nodelay and noupdate can speed computer vs. computer scenario test dramatically.
nosound – Turn off all sound.
norandom – Turns off system time based initialization of the random number generator used in TOAW.
polog – Turns on the programmed opponent logging feature. This will generate a po_log.txt file in your game directory. The log file is a detailed record of programmed opponent decision making during a game.
toawlog – Turns on the general game logging feature. This will generate a toaw_log.txt file in your game directory. The log file is a detailed record of many game management functions, including loading and unloading of resources and combat resolution.
nointro – Turns the introductory cinematic off.
uberdude – Increases the amount of feedback from the event engine and other game functions for debug purposes. Many event engine actions that leave no trace in normal mode will fully document themselves in the news report if you use the uberdude switch. This can be used during normal play, but is really intended for scenario designer use. It has a tendency to clutter the news report and certain graphics areas with information that isn’t needed during normal play.


Force Editor Functions


F4 saves the current order of battle as a special format text file.
F5 loads a special format text file as an order of battle.


You can edit these special oob text files with any text editor. Anything in the order of battle can be changed. Units can be renamed, copied, deleted, etc. This feature can be used to quickly put together a large order of battle outside of TOAW. There is a cost though: The f5 loader has absolutely no error checking. If you make any mistakes, or violate any formatting rules, things will head south in a hurry when you load the modified OOB. This feature was only used for one scenario that I know of – Middle East 2000.



General Scenario Editor Functions


F12 gives you the option of saving a scenario, order of battle, or map from the Opart300 editor as a standard (non-300) file. This can be very useful if you accidentally “convert” a normal scenario to a 300 format file. As with the F4 and F5 functions, there is no error checking. So be sure you haven’t violated any limits on size of order of battle, map, number of events, etc. Used carefully, this feature can also be used to clip portions out of a true 300 format scenario. You will have to manually edit the order of battle, trim the map, etc. if necessary to come under the standard limits.

[JMS]

Originally posted by gen Caviglia


Do you know any other command switch option?

Look for the "The TOAW unsupported features document." if the link doesn't work

http://www.tdg.nu/resources/otherresources/Unsuported%20features.htm

[gen Caviglia]

Thank you!