Air and Air Defense Assets - NATO

[Double Deuce]

FIXED WING

Elements of 50th Tactical Fighter Wing (TFW)- US

...1 Sqdn/50th TFW
......x4 F-4E Phantom II
Package 1
20mm 161A1 Gat (1) 6 shots
2000lb Paveway (1)
2000lb Paveway (1)
Package 2

20mm 161A1 Gat (1) 6 shots
Mk-83 Snakeye (2)
750lb Bomb (4)
Package 3

20mm 161A1 Gat (1) 6 shots
Mk-84 Snakeye (1)
Mk-84 Snakeye (1) Elements of 355th Tactical Fighter Wing (TFW)- US

...1 Sqdn/345th TFW
......x8 A-10
Package 1

30mm GAU-8 (1) 18 shots
AGM650D Maverick (4)
AP Cluster Bomb (4)
500lb Bomb (4)
Package 2

30mm GAU-8 (1) 18 shots
Napalm 500 (4)
AP Cluster Bomb (4)
500lb Bomb (4)
Package 3

30mm GAU-8 (1) 18 shots
4x 2.75in FFAR (5)
Mk-82 Snakeye (6)
Mk-82 Snakeye (6)
Package 4

30mm GAU-8 (1) 18 shots
Mk-82 Snakeye (8)
Mk-82 Snakeye (8) ROTARY WING

Elements of 223rd AH Aviation Battalion - US

...A Co/223rd Avn Bn
......x4 OH-58D
......x13 AH-1S Cobra
Package 1
20mm M197 Gat (16 HE, 15 AP)
2x Hydra FFAR (15 HE, 4 AP)
2x Hydra FFAR (15 HE, 4 AP)
Package 2

20mm M197 Gat (16 HE, 15 AP)
2x Hydra FFAR (15 HE)
2x Hydra FFAR (15 HE)
TOW (4 AP) Elements of 2nd Regiment/II Corp AH - West German

...1 Sqdn/2nd Rgt/II Corp AH
......x9 PAH-I BO-105
Package 1
HOT (6x Heat) AIR DEFENSE
(-)// - US
...A Bty//
......x4 M48 Chaparral
......x4 M163 Vulcan
...B Bty//
......x4 M48 Chaparral
......x4 M163 Vulcan
...C Bty//
......x4 HAWK SAM (Dutch OOB)
......x4 DAF Heavy Truck (Dutch OOB)

(-)// - West German
...A Bty//
......x4 Roland
......x2 Gepard A1

[Artur]

Gentlemen,

All I can say is : this is not fair!

13 Cobras have 13X8TOW missiles = 104 missiles
and the 9 PAHs have 9X6 missiles = 54 missiles
in total 158 missiles.

Not to menituion the US scout helos with vision of 60.

WP has 14 Mi24 D with 14X4 missiles (not as good as TOWs) = 54 missiles IN TOTAL

You do not have to be a tactician genious to see the following: All you have to do is go with your scout helos and the apaches to hunt in the night. One battle 104 missiles, almost unlimited vision and with a very pessimistic estimation 50 kills. 2 battles and a tank regiment ceases to exist without even having a chance to take a shot. And I did not take into account the PAHs!

The west has technical advantage, there is no doubt.

But where is the WP numerical superiority?????????????

I do not see that neither in gound forces and of course not in air assets as well. Is this a NATO shooting excercise?

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

But where is the WP numerical superiority?????????????

I do not see that neither in gound forces and of course not in air assets as well. Is this a NATO shooting excercise?Thats why ALL OOB's and forces are being shown here in the open. This way everyone can comment. There is no concrete way to make the forces even. Once I get them input into Excel I can know if they are at least "close" in purchase point value. Even after they are balanced in that sense there will still be adjustments.

As I get more information' I'll start adding these point values to the actual OOB thread Post #1's.

The Air threads are there to initiate discussions. We all know Air units can throw an SP game way out of balance BUT I would like to have them modelled if even only in a minor way.

[Artur]

OK I know. I agree Air has to be here in this campaign.
But the forces need to be changed drastically to just give a slight chance for the bad boys as well IMO.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

I agree with Arthur on this. This way it is very much unbalanced, favoring NATO.

Also, what about air defense? WP must have a nice, integrated, layered system of SAMs to begin with...

[Double Deuce]

13 Cobras have 13X8TOW missiles = 104 missilesThe S version does not carry TOW Missiles. I'd be more concerned about the A-10's. :laugh:

[Pannonicus]

Just deploy our SAM cover, and we dont worry any more! :devil:

[Double Deuce]

Air Defense structure changes made.

Also, I need some unit names for them.

[Shortreengage]

Sitting quietly in my drivers hole eating my oatmeal cookie bar :hush:

Shortreengage


"Spray them like bugs then send in the tanks!"

[Pannonicus]

"Spray them like bugs then send in the tanks!"

Are you advocating chemical warfare? :surprise:

[Shortreengage]

Are you advocating chemical warfare? :surprise:
"One man's WMD is another man's force multiplier"

[Artur]

"One man's WMD is another man's force multiplier"

Do you hear the champion of the "democratic" west? :p

Artur.

[Spark Vark]

Do you hear the champion of the "democratic" west? :p

Artur.


Don't worry, we haven't lost our democratic ways. We all took a vote on whether or not to use them. :smoke:

[Shortreengage]

In 1984 our chemical defence equipment was much improved. But we must be careful. This part of Bayern is hops country........

[Shortreengage]

And our policy is No FIRST use. Go ahead and lob that stuff. We can handle -50 in spotting and hitting. Can you? :D

Shortreengage

[mr_clark]

And our policy is No FIRST use. Go ahead and lob that stuff. We can handle -50 in spotting and hitting. Can you? :D

Shortreengage
No but we simply drop three times the amount you drop :P

[Pannonicus]

This "debate" is beginning to sound like Kruschev in the UN. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Artur]

This "debate" is beginning to sound like Kruschev in the UN. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

We are just getting in the appropriate mood before the "real" fight begins. :cheeky:

Artur.

[Waape]

Well, you Hungarians and East Germans just should march over to us, and help liberate your countries. This whole war would then be over quickly. Think about it! :rolleyes:

[Shortreengage]

This "debate" is beginning to sound like Kruschev in the UN. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Keep your shoes on :laugh:

[mr_clark]

Well, you Hungarians and East Germans just should march over to us, and help liberate your countries. This whole war would then be over quickly. Think about it! :rolleyes:
Liberate?
phew... You mean make us all slaves of monopolcapitalism1

[Pannonicus]

Keep your shoes on :laugh:

"These boots are made for walkin'!" :laugh:

[Shortreengage]

Yeah, walkin to our POW collection point!

[Temujin]

Yeah, walkin to our POW collection point!
I thought you said, in the secure area, we wern't takin POW's.

[Pannonicus]

I thought you said, in the secure area, we wern't takin POW's.

Well, then you are already violating the law of war. It is forbidden to give "no quarter is given" orders. It's long established customary law, as well as contained in Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.

But be assured, you will get a fair trial (and a proper execution afterfards) in our hands!

[Pannonicus]

Yeah, walkin to our POW collection point!

"Walk all over you" - I mean, over what would be left of your forces...

[Pergite]

This "debate" is beginning to sound like Kruschev in the UN. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Lets just hope that you like him, all leave this forum so we can get some work done ;)

[Pannonicus]

Lets just hope that you like him, all leave this forum so we can get some work done ;)

I thought this IS work... :D

[Double Deuce]

Here in the 1st post is the Air and Air Defense OOB for NATO.

[Shortreengage]

Air Defence Issues:

1) US Forces have inadequate ADA support.

2) H series(ROAD) Divisional ADA Battalion consisted of 2 Batteries Chaparal(24 launchers total) and 2 Batteries Vulcan(24 M163 total) This yields a "Brigade Slice" of 8 M48A1 and 8 M163.

3) H series Maneuver Battalions had a ADA (MANPADS) Plt of 5 Redeye/Stinger systems.

4) J series(Army of Excellence) Divisional ADA BNs had 3 Batteries of 9 M163 and 20 Stingers in 1991. 1 Battery would be a Brigade Slice. There were a 15 additional Stinger teames in the HHB.

5) It seams that you are using the J series MTOE but with units still in transition so the latter MTOE seems more relavent.

6) Anecdotal observation: What happened to the M48A1s?. Standing on my turret at TAA Thompson in Jan 1991 I coud see the DMAIN. And some M48A1s surrounding it. The PL even came to visit as he went to school with my LT.

7) You have assigned Army level Ada to the WP but no Corps HAWK batteries to our Division. I will also look at their MANPADS.

8)Have you seen MANPADS miss in 2.0 yet? I have'nt.

[Double Deuce]

Air Defence Issues:.While many of the gound OOB's are about full strength the "assets" are set up by me to be hodge-podge at best. In the ADA and Helo area the WP is outgunned (by points in WinSPMBT). The WP does have a lot of these units included as organic so comparing all listed Air and ADA equipment from all threads does skew the overall picture back in their favor especially when taking into consideration all the MANPADS (i.e they have a crapload of Strela's). Since the only gauge I really have to measure balance is the purchase points in the game itself. The WP is about 8,000 ahead so any adjustments or additions to the NATO OOB need to be submitted in their respective threads (US, German or Canadian) and tweaked as we go ubtil the ponts begin to equalize. NATO is very short on Stingers and the larger rocket ADA (HAWK) compared to the WP so these assets are open to addition.

[mr_clark]

8)Have you seen MANPADS miss in 2.0 yet? I have'nt.
I have. Both SA-16 and Stingers... Though the loads of Stinger Teams the AI tends to buy just piss me off :P

[Shortreengage]

While many of the gound OOB's are about full strength the "assets" are set up by me to be hodge-podge at best. In the ADA and Helo area the WP is outgunned (by points in WinSPMBT). The WP does have a lot of these units included as organic so comparing all listed Air and ADA equipment from all threads does skew the overall picture back in their favor especially when taking into consideration all the MANPADS (i.e they have a crapload of Strela's). Since the only gauge I really have to measure balance is the purchase points in the game itself. The WP is about 8,000 ahead so any adjustments or additions to the NATO OOB need to be submitted in their respective threads (US, German or Canadian) and tweaked as we go ubtil the ponts begin to equalize. NATO is very short on Stingers and the larger rocket ADA (HAWK) compared to the WP so these assets are open to addition.

1) 8 M48A1 and 4 M163 should equate to 9 M163.

2) The Brigade slice of 20 Stinger teams should be implemented.

3) I still must research the IHAWKS

[Double Deuce]

1) 8 M48A1 and 4 M163 should equate to 9 M163.

2) The Brigade slice of 20 Stinger teams should be implemented.

3) I still must research the IHAWKS1) Not sure I follow, do you mean 9x additional M163's?

2) You mean adding them as an independent attachment to the Brigade?

3) The issue is that the IHAWK is not a vehicle mobile unit like the others so it will be hard to simulate them if they are ambushed and caught in a land battle.

Can they be loaded onto vehicle transports I wonder? EDIT: I checked and cannot find any vehicles that can transport the IHAWK units in WinSPMBT.

[Shortreengage]

1) Not sure I follow, do you mean 9x additional M163's?

2) You mean adding them as an independent attachment to the Brigade?

3) The issue is that the IHAWK is not a vehicle mobile unit like the others so it will be hard to simulate them if they are ambushed and caught in a land battle.

Can they be loaded onto vehicle transports I wonder? EDIT: I checked and cannot find any vehicles that can transport the IHAWK units in WinSPMBT.
1) No ,see my post on J vs H series MTOE.

2) No they get attached down to BNs . 20 Stinger teams total. The normal Brigade slice. Nothing organic in the companies.

3) I think it's pulled with 5 ton trucks.

[Double Deuce]

1) No ,see my post on J vs H series MTOE.

2) No they get attached down to BNs . 20 Stinger teams total. The normal Brigade slice. Nothing organic in the companies.

3) I think it's pulled with 5 ton trucks.Since most of the TO&E I am using is H I will use that for guidance.

1) I will add 4 M163 Vulcans to the total force.

2) For simplicity I will create an independent unit attached to the Brigade. The Brigade Commander can allocate the Stingers out as appropriate/decided. They would probably get reorganized no matter where I post them. :D

3) The 5 tons in WinSPMBT can't load them. :( Let me check some other things.

[Shortreengage]

Since most of the TO&E I am using is H I will use that for guidance.

1) I will add 4 M163 Vulcans to the total force.

2) For simplicity I will create an independent unit attached to the Brigade. The Brigade Commander can allocate the Stingers out as appropriate/decided. They would probably get reorganized no matter where I post them. :D

3) The 5 tons in WinSPMBT can't load them. :( Let me check some other things.
The Dutch ones fit.

[Double Deuce]

The Dutch ones fit.Thats odd. They will fit the Dutch HAWK's but not the US HAWK's. Guess there will be a Dutch attachment to the Brigade. :D

[Shortreengage]

Thats odd. They will fit the Dutch HAWK's but not the US HAWK's. Guess there will be a Dutch attachment to the Brigade. :D
No its the same system. They just dorked it up in the orbats. Just change it to captured. They are Area SAMs any ways. Long range.

[Double Deuce]

HAWKS will be added to the US OOB as pulled from the Dutch OOB (set as captured most likely). I'll post when I get to my laptop as thats where the spreadsheets are and I need to recheck points.

[Double Deuce]

HAWKS will be added to the US OOB as pulled from the Dutch OOB (set as captured most likely). OK, they have now been added. Check 1st post (at bottom).