OOB Threads

[Double Deuce]

Just wanted to explain why I have such a large "mix" of different equipment (mainly vehicles) in the different OOB's.

While it will be less historical I did this to add to the flavour to the campaign and give players a chance to use a variety of equipment. It wil also simulate the war that has been going on for 6 months and replacements are considered whatever can be scounged to be thrown into the gaps. This is especially true of the tanks.

SUPPLY -Supply will not really be modelled in this campaign so logistical issues are virtually none existant.

RULES - Once I get a map movement system finished I wil post the rule sections for further discussion, tweaking and to answer questions. I still need to finish the aircraft/aviation rules as well as some others. I have base ideas written up BUT they need to be finalized and made sure they are workable.

[mr_clark]

It wil also simulate the war that has been going on for 6 months and replacements are considered whatever can be scounged to be thrown into the gaps.
I see your point, but if we really claim this point then the GDR must be stripped of the T-72.

[Pannonicus]

Not necessarily - they can get new equipment from Soviets, and then they get the latest stuff.

In WW2 this is how the Royal Hungarian Defence Forces got Tiger and Panther tanks. German units on the front transferred some to Hungarian units. Otherwise we had none of these.

[mr_clark]

Hmm, allright, an interesting point. Question is in how far the Soviets would have had the ressources to do it.

[Pannonicus]

If they have a problem of shortage of trained manpower, they would probably do it. Also their industrial capacity could be cranked up quite high, it was already an economy during Cold War almost on war footing. (Estimation is that about 40% of GDP went to military in peacetime!)

So especially if they prepared for the war, I think they would have a nice output of materiel.

[Double Deuce]

For those of you who are planning to command certain units please look over those OOB's and make sure there is a good mix of coverage such as including Artillery, Air Defense Artillery, Recon and Engineer assets at the Regiment/Brigade levels.

[mr_clark]

For the NVA regiment I say it all looks rather good, though I still object against the "three tanks problem" (if we agree on the wartime production of T-72s that are included I would think besty would be to take out the T-62 then as they would no more be in produktion and surely well used).

My only other question is that of anti air assets, as the divison surely has more air assets than the SA7 of the MMR regiment here to be played. I think that (dending on the strenght of air units) at least a section (better a battery) of SA3(S-125), SA4(FRK2K11) or (preferably) SA6(FRK2K12)should be attached to the division.

[Pannonicus]

NEVA (SA-3) was rather a fixed "home defence" type unit, wasn't it? I think they would be appropriate at airfields only, in the rear.

KRUG and KUB systems should play a role, that's for sure. Maybe also SA-8s?

PLUS: SPAA, Sylka and ZSU-57-2 units!

[Artur]

.

SUPPLY -Supply will not really be modelled in this campaign so logistical issues are virtually none existant.



I very much suggest to include a simple supply rule in the game! Things are just so different without it, encirclement is not even half as effective without supply rules! A simple rule as in supply or out of supply would be enough. I would rather ommit the tactical nuke aspect and keep a simple supply rule.

Artur.

[mr_clark]

NEVA (SA-3) was rather a fixed "home defence" type unit, wasn't it? I think they would be appropriate at airfields only, in the rear.

KRUG and KUB systems should play a role, that's for sure. Maybe also SA-8s?

PLUS: SPAA, Sylka and ZSU-57-2 units!
Ahh right the good old 57mm FLAK... nice things.

I didn't include the SA-8 and similar systems as I speculated on more 'divisional' assets.
SA-8 would be good though, one of the best selfpropelled SAMs in the game IMHO.

[Pannonicus]

In Hungary, fixed SAMs were protected by S-60 and ZU-2, as well as Strela-2/Igla. Interestingly enough, Igla teams in the 80s had LAND ROVERS! At least on paper, but they never saw them.

Probably high-ranking comrades used them instead, for hunting...(Our long-time Defence Minister,Gen. Lajos Czinege used to hunt from military helicopters as well... no comment...)

So actually these units had no means to disperse quicly into firing positions. At least not in peacetime.

KUB and KRUG systems were protected by ZU-23 and Strela/Igla teams.

[Pannonicus]

SA-8 would be good though, one of the best selfpropelled SAMs in the game IMHO.

In Hungary we did not have them, your NVA troops or the Soviets should have some!

[mr_clark]

NVA has them in the OOB and I can recall having seen some in a video of one of thwe first of may parades.

[Pannonicus]

I dont know how old you are, but I suspect that first parade was one of the last ones, wasnt it? :)

[mr_clark]

quite late, and only the video. The only one I can remember I was on was the last in 1989 and I was 4 then...

[Pannonicus]

The first big event like that I remember is the funeral of Leonid Ilyich... I was 3 then. :)

[mr_clark]

I sense a indecisive difference in ages here :)

[Pannonicus]

Me too! :smoke:

[Double Deuce]

Periodically I will "Edit" the 1st post in the individual OOB threads with changes. Since it will not show as a new post being in the thread I will add a "Bump" type notice when I make any changes. I will also make the changes shown in RED.

[Pannonicus]

Can you put on a Hungarian thread as well, with something based on my original list? I would gladly edit it, but currently I dont have the time to build from scratch. It is much easier to make the corrections.
Thanks!

[Double Deuce]

Can you put on a Hungarian thread as well, with something based on my original list? Done! More or less. ;)

[Pannonicus]

Done! More or less. ;)

Thank you, they are pretty good at first sight! Except that airmobile - it could be in general reserve.

[Double Deuce]

FYI - Air Asset threads have been adjusted (more clearly defined) AND available Ammo Load Configurations have been listed under each weapon system.

[Pannonicus]

Now it looks much better! Thank you! :love:

[Pannonicus]

Now - do we have independent units, like air defence, or separate artillery/airborne in general HQ reserve?

My Hungarian airborne will be there for sure, but I would also ask for the following:

1. For airfield
NEVA (4x launchers) battery to defend airfield
S-60 (x8 guns) battery to defend NEVA
Igla platoon (6x launchers) to defend those above

These would be fixed, you cannot remove them from airfield hex.

2. For troops
x3 KUB (SA-6) Bty
x1 KRUG (SA-4) Bty
x4 ZU-23-2 Bty to defend KUBs and KRUGs
Trucks
Ammo trucks (called TZM) supplying missiles

They can move between locations, following troops.

3. Independet artillery unit (Rgt (-))
x6 batteries of BM-21 with spotters and ammo trucks

Something similar could be given to the NATO side, so they can create local superiority.

[Double Deuce]

Now - do we have independent units, like air defence, or separate artillery/airborne in general HQ reserve?No. The only "Independent" units will be SAM units located at any on-map airfields and guarding Supply Points (if included).

[Pannonicus]

No. The only "Independent" units will be SAM units located at any on-map airfields and guarding Supply Points (if included).

What about KUB and KRUG?

I would really advise to give SAM units close protection, they always had it, as their MINIMUM range is several kilometres usually...

[Double Deuce]

What about KUB and KRUG?Might not be necessary as the airfields will probably be "off-map" and out of the ground combat area.

[Pannonicus]

Airfields would be defended by fixed SAM units, such as NEVA, DVINA, VOLHOV. So if no airfields, we do not need these, I understand.

Forward troops however would be protected by KUB and KRUG complexes. They move together with troops, and their cover should extend over the front-line. True, physically they are several kilometres behind (with ranges of 20-40km), but their effect is to protect front-line troops. Their combined use with STRELA, SHILKA etc. complexes is an integral part of WP doctrine. They give the upper layer.
So I see justification for them at least (put them to a remote corner of the map, out of reach for ground troops).

[Double Deuce]

Airfields would be defended by fixed SAM units, such as NEVA, DVINA, VOLHOV. So if no airfields, we do not need these, I understand.

Forward troops however would be protected by KUB and KRUG complexes. They move together with troops, and their cover should extend over the front-line. True, physically they are several kilometres behind (with ranges of 20-40km), but their effect is to protect front-line troops. Their combined use with STRELA, SHILKA etc. complexes is an integral part of WP doctrine. They give the upper layer.
So I see justification for them at least (put them to a remote corner of the map, out of reach for ground troops).Only units that can be deployed on the ground in the SPMBT map area will be involved in the battles (with the exception of artillery). For a SAM/ADA unit to have impact on the ground war they need to be in one of the hexes included in the SPMBT Map.

Any ADA/SAM units included in the campaign will be added to the OOB's and be controlled at the Team Commander level.

[Pannonicus]

Only units that can be deployed on the ground in the SPMBT map area will be involved in the battles (with the exception of artillery). For a SAM/ADA unit to have impact on the ground war they need to be in one of the hexes included in the SPMBT Map.

Any ADA/SAM units included in the campaign will be added to the OOB's and be controlled at the Team Commander level.

OK, I accept this! Still, I think it would be realistic to give WP 2-3 KUB, 1 KRUG (or instead of any of these, SA-8) batteries.

Something similar (but as they have air force superiority, numerically less) could be given to NATO, Hawks for example.

[Double Deuce]

OK, I accept this! Still, I think it would be realistic to give WP 2-3 KUB, 1 KRUG (or instead of any of these, SA-8) batteries.

Something similar (but as they have air force superiority, numerically less) could be given to NATO, Hawks for example.Mobile SAM units will be added to the OOB's, I just haven't had time to look into determining them. Not ZSU's, Gepards and stuff but actual Missile Launch types.

[Double Deuce]

Another change!

Dedicated/Independent Air Defense assets will be tracked with the Air Assets. I have added "preliminary" Air Defense assets to the bottom of the appropriate Air Asset threads (which have been renamed "Air and Air Defense Assets").

NOTE: None of these units will have attending Ammo vehicles. This is because they will not really have a need to reload during actual SPMBT battles (not sure they could do it in that short time frame IRL anyway). This will also prevent the inclination to dispatch them to front line units to follow around the artillery and mortar units. :whist:

[Double Deuce]

I have finally completed the OOB Excel Spreadsheet to calculate the point totals for both teams. While I realize its not a perfact way to balance the campaign its a guide.

At this point the NATO side is short 17,500 points compared to the WP team so the NATO team will be getting some adjustments. In addition, the Hungarian Air Mobile unit may be replaced by a ground force OR the NATO team will get a "counter-unit". I may add the counter unit to bring the points up to a better balance, that way the WP team can keep the Air Mobile unit.

NOTE: This campaign is a "MEETING ENGAGEMENT" so I wil strive for equivalency in team totals! Both sides are attempting to fill a void/no mans land (more details in the campaign briefing to come).

[Artur]

DD,

I suggest you to wait until the patch comes out. The TI units are well under-priced at the moment. That will change.

Artur.

PS: If any side is unballanced now that is definitely not the NATO side :)

[Temujin]

PS: If any side is unballanced now that is definitely not the NATO side :)
HA, you people will try anything! :p

[Artur]

HA, you people will try anything! :p

My dear friend Temujin,

Have you examined the OOBs closely?
Have you experimented with the equipment a little bit from both sides?

Now an Abrams costs 296 pts while a T72M costs 208 pts. I think there is not much argument that an Abrams is worth at least 2 T72s if not 3 T72s.
Now how comes 296 pts vs 208 pts to that?

I have given a lot of suggestions to the CAMMO team while creating their patch. The gratest "achievement" was that they reworked the unit cost calculation. An Abrams is worh cca 2.75 T72s in the patch not 1.42 T72s. It is quite a difference isn't it?

It will be the same with the rest of the units.Units with TI will cost cca additional 80 pts and units with advanced fire control will cost additional 40 pts.

Is that enough to base my previous statement on? :devious:

Artur.

[Artur]

On the other hand to be fair the NATO should get their airmobile unit too or make our unit a ground unit.

Artur.

[Temujin]

My dear friend Temujin,

Have you examined the OOBs closely?
Have you experimented with the equipment a little bit from both sides?

Now an Abrams costs 296 pts while a T72M costs 208 pts. I think there is not much argument that an Abrams is worth at least 2 T72s if not 3 T72s.
Now how comes 296 pts vs 208 pts to that?

I have given a lot of suggestions to the CAMMO team while creating their patch. The gratest "achievement" was that they reworked the unit cost calculation. An Abrams is worh cca 2.75 T72s in the patch not 1.42 T72s. It is quite a difference isn't it?

It will be the same with the rest of the units.Units with TI will cost cca additional 80 pts and units with advanced fire control will cost additional 40 pts.

Is that enough to base my previous statement on? :devious:

Artur.
I know what you are saying, but theres many other offsets in the game, and come on, the ammount of Abrams we have does not reflect the difference in points that are there now. You may be right to suggest a couple of thousand extra points is needed as an offset, but 14,000!! I'm on to your tactics and will be advising DD accordingly! Ask Pannonicus, he knows its a waste of time trying to get one past me! :laugh:

[Artur]

I know what you are saying, but theres many other offsets in the game, and come on, the ammount of Abrams we have does not reflect the difference in points that are there now. ...

There are a lot of othe TI units in your OOB.
Bradleys and SP ATGMs. Please do not forget that.

when the patch comes out hopefully all this will be more clear.

By the way I do not wish to get past anyone but if you debate please bring some _concrete_ reasons not just general statements.

So what are the other offsets? Besides debates like this will help DD in the campaign design ;),

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

On the other hand to be fair the NATO should get their airmobile unit too or make our unit a ground unit.

Artur. And now they seek to change the entire game system in their favor! :laugh:

Hopefully you increase the points costs of reactive armors and anti-missle systems. Especially the unproven ones. ARENA and advanced reactive armors.
Also top attack ATGMs.

[Artur]

And now they seek to change the entire game system in their favor! :laugh:

Hopefully you increase the points costs of reactive armors and anti-missle systems. Especially the unproven ones. ARENA and advanced reactive armors.
Also top attack ATGMs.

To increase reactive armor may be a good point as well az anti missile systems. Feel free to post at schrapnelgames forums :).

On the other hand.
-As far az I know in 84 soviets do not have anti missile systems :devious:
-reactive armor is tough it should be an additional cost BUT not as much as TI capability.
I am playing in The Red Army tournament at the Blitz on NATO side. With 18 Ti capable tanks I managed to destroy 70 Russian tanks 40T80s and 30T72s with the tactic of fireing through smoke.I lost 5 tanks in the process. (It was 12 Chieftains and 6 Challengers vs 40T80s and 30T72s + the support units. I had TOWs with TI as well they also took heavy toll on the russians. TI simply rules the battlefield.)

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

To increase reactive armor may be a good point as well az anti missile systems. Feel free to post at schrapnelgames forums :).

On the other hand.
-As far az I know in 84 soviets do not have anti missile systems :devious:
-reactive armor is tough it should be an additional cost BUT not as much as TI capability.
I am playing in The Red Army tournament at the Blitz on NATO side. With 18 Ti capable tanks I managed to destroy 70 Russian tanks 40T80s and 30T72s with the tactic of fireing through smoke.I lost 5 tanks in the process. (It was 12 Chieftains and 6 Challengers vs 40T80s and 30T72s + the support units. I had TOWs with TI as well they also took heavy toll on the russians. TI simply rules the battlefield.)

Artur.
I was'nt complaining about this campaign and ARENA/CACTUS. Just in general as they are unproven and IMHO too effective. ARENA/CACTUS not ERA in general.

I played in that tournement as NATO well. I just had a better opponent. I only got a draw. And there were more tanks than that :surprise: They never throw me any rookies:argh:

TI is extremely effective. I know :smoke: They need to come up with a way to use dual spectrum smoke.

[Artur]

I played in that tournement as NATO well. I just had a better opponent. I only got a draw. And there were more tanks than that :surprise: They never throw me any rookies:argh:


Don't worry I got my butt kicked by Beast as well :)

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

Don't worry I got my butt kicked by Beast as well :)

Artur.Hopefully you'll have that opportunity again in Czepak's Tourney :laugh: And maybe I'll get a piece of that butt too :devil: I believe we're up first?

Shortreengage
TEAM AWOL aka M7M3

[Artur]

Hopefully you'll have that opportunity again in Czepak's Tourney :laugh: And maybe I'll get a piece of that butt too :devil: I believe we're up first?

Shortreengage
TEAM AWOL aka M7M3

Yes we are. And being as lucky as I usually am I chose the hardest scenario. Even Czerpak admitted that he is curious if somebody could win that scenario from the american side.

So getting a part of my butt is no big deal there. But of course if we play the mirror :devious: that's something else...

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

What I'll probably do know is wait for the patch before editing the OOB. Everything is in a spreadsheet so it will only be a mater of editing the base unit point values and recalculating totals.

I have been working on the actual WinSPMBT maps as well and at this point I "think" all roads, rivers, etc match from section to section. now I need to add in the larger urban areas and tweak the base terrain to look a little less "random generator looking".

I may request some map help soon if I cannot free up more RL time. So any aspiring map designers out there might want to stand by just in case. :D

[Artur]

DD,

Let me know if you need help. I have a lot of RL issues nowdays, it depends on situation of the given moment if I will be able to help or not. I will definitely try to make some time for it.

Artur.

[Shortreengage]

Yes we are. And being as lucky as I usually am I chose the hardest scenario. Even Czerpak admitted that he is curious if somebody could win that scenario from the american side.

So getting a part of my butt is no big deal there. But of course if we play the mirror :devious: that's something else...

Artur.

Ah, leadership from the front. Respect :hail: :hail: :hail:

Was He planning a mirror?

[Artur]

Ah, leadership from the front. Respect :hail: :hail: :hail:

Was He planning a mirror?

No he does not plan to play mirror games because another player from the team will play the other side against another opponent. The points will add up as it is a team tournament.

Of course if the opponent is fair he will play the mirror. I also offered mirror games to my opponents in Red Army tournaments since the scenarios were not ballanced. One of them accepted the offer and beat me hard after I did the same to him in the previous game (which earned me the points record :smoke: ).

C'est la guerre...

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

I may request some map help soon if I cannot free up more RL time. So any aspiring map designers out there might want to stand by just in case. :D

I am ready to help you out a little bit too.

[Double Deuce]

I have drafted a NEW OOB Excel Spreadsheet to calculate the point totals for both teams. As I said before, its not a perfect way to balance the campaign BUT it is good a guide.

At this point the NATO side is short 7,000 points compared to the WP team so the NATO team will be still probably be getting some adjustments. This does not include the Hungarian Air Mobile. So keeping it would add even more to the WP point lead.

NOTE: This campaign is a "MEETING ENGAGEMENT" so I will continue to strive for equivalency in team totals! Both sides are attempting to fill a void/no mans land (more details in the campaign briefing to come).

I have also added in some Command vehicles for each Nation.

[Double Deuce]

I have made some minor adjustm,ents to a couple OOB's. Mainly this consisted of renaming unit types to the new names AND adding some Command Vehicles to the WP Forces.

NONE of the these changes are in RED so you may have to look close for them. They are very minor adjustments.

[Pepper]

I may request some map help soon if I cannot free up more RL time. So any aspiring map designers out there might want to stand by just in case. :D

I am more than happy to help out; I don't know where you find the time to keep all the balls in the air as it is.

[Pannonicus]

At this point the NATO side is short 7,000 points compared to the WP team so the NATO team will be still probably be getting some adjustments. This does not include the Hungarian Air Mobile. So keeping it would add even more to the WP point lead.



Lets wait for the patch, then recalculate all the points... That will change some things, I guess.

[Double Deuce]

FYI - There may not have been any changes in eevry OOB other than my changing the unit/equipment to BLACK text from any that might have still been RED.

ALL Post #1's are the current, up to date OOB's (prior to the patch release).