2nd BDE OOB (NATO v WP) - United States

[Double Deuce]

Here is the current DRAFT OOB for;

2nd Brigade/8th Infantry Division - United States

...HQ/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x4 M557A2 C2V

...8th ADA Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x20 M151 Jeep 4x4
......x20 Stinger Team

...88th Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x2 M557A2 C2V
......A Co/88 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x2 Pioneers
.........x4 Assault Eng
.........x2 MMG Section
.........x4 M113A1-Dragon
.........x4 M113A2
......B Co/88 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x2 Pioneers
.........x4 Assault Eng
.........x2 MMG Section
.........x4 M113A1-Dragon
.........x4 M113A2
......C Co/88 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x2 Bulldozer
.........x2 M728 CEV
.........x2 M60 Mine Plough
.........x2 Barge Carrier

...4th Bn/29th FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x2 M557A2 C2V
......A Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x1 M981A1 FIST-V
.........x6 M109A2
.........x6 M992 FAASV
......B Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x1 M981A1 FIST-V
.........x6 M109A2
.........x6 M992 FAASV
......C Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x1 M981A1 FIST-V
.........x6 M110A2
.........x6 M992 FAASV

...2nd Bn/68th Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x2 M557A2 C2V
......x2 M1 Abrams (#20)
......x6 M106A1
......x6 M3A1 Bradley
......x6 Cavalry Scouts(+)
......x2 SAW Team
......A Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x14 M1 Abrams (#20)
......B Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x14 M1 Abrams (#20)
......C Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x17 M60A3 (TTS)
......D Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x17 M60A3 (TTS)

...1st Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x2 M557A2 C2V
......x1 M113A2
......x6 M106A1
......x6 Cavalry Scouts(+)
......x6 M3A1
......x2 SAW Team
......x2 M151 Jeep 4x4
......x2 Stinger Team
......A Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x13 M2A1
.........x9 Dragon Team
......B Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x13 M2A1
.........x9 Dragon Team
......C Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x13 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x14 M113A2
.........x6 Dragon Team
......D Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x13 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x14 M113A2
.........x6 Dragon Team
......E Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x3 M113A2
.........x12 M901

...1st Bn/39th Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......x2 M557A2 C2V
......x1 M113A2
......x6 M106A1
......x6 Cavalry Scouts(+)
......x6 M3A1
......x2 SAW Team
......x2 M151 Jeep 4x4
......x2 Stinger Team
......A Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x13 M2A1
.........x9 Dragon Team
......B Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x10 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x1 M113A2
.........x13 M2A1
.........x9 Dragon Team
......C Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x13 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x14 M113A2
.........x6 Dragon Team
......D Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x13 Mech Rifle Sqd
.........x14 M113A2
.........x6 Dragon Team
......E Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
.........x3 M113A2
.........x12 M901

[mr_clark]

Good to see that infantry ATGM is mainly Dragon and not TOW. In most games of this era those ruin the WP players game.

[Double Deuce]

The ground units are mainly Dragon but the vehicles are armed with TOW's (m150's and M901's).

[Pannonicus]

I think with vehicles it is fairly realistic, in 1984 it has been more than 10 years of TOW use already. (If I remember correctly, they started to use it in Vietnam, in early 1970s.)

[JMS]

If it's 8 ID then it should be M60A3s. They were the last to get M1A1s in 1989 or 1990.

[Pannonicus]

If it's 8 ID then it should be M60A3s. They were the last to get M1A1s in 1989 or 1990.

I support this idea very much! :devil: :devious: :whist:

[mr_clark]

I support Pannonicus' support ;)

[Double Deuce]

If it's 8 ID then it should be M60A3s. They were the last to get M1A1s in 1989 or 1990.Agree. I was with 2/68 AR/8th ID until June 1987 and we still had M60A3's. Actually, I think the 2 Mech BN's (1/13 and 3/39) with our Brigade (2nd) still had M113's and no Bradleys.

[Artur]

Well this really looks like a global disarmament here...

If you change all Bradleys to M113s some 100X7 TOW missiles will be gone. Quite a difference. I also think the US contingent is a bit too strong, I already PM-ed about it to DD.

A good solution may be be
1. Change the Abrams companies to M60A3 TTS
2. Change one battalion of Bradleys to M113s and leave the other with Bradleys.

Another good solution may be
1. Leave the Abrams but give more tanks to WP
2. Change one battalion of Bradleys to M113s and leave the other with Bradleys.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

I second that, too many Bradleys will ruin the experience!

[dita]

Unless I`m missing something (which I`m sure I am;) ) whenever I use bradleys, they seem to go BANG in spectacular fashion :(

[mr_clark]

Well, iy depends on how you use them.If you play against a Soviet AI player or something like that, they will be easily snuffed out the moment one of the virtually hundreds of ATGM the AI buys.
If you have them in a defensive role though the Bradleys are a real killer. A platoon of them in a treeline, with sufficient LOS can easily take out an advancing mechanized infantry company based on BMPs. The TOW just reach out and kill, and after a range of 1000-1500 meters the Bushmaster just rips through any APC or IFV.

As usual it always depends on how you use your forces. Personally, as a person who often plays against US as the SU, I really learned to curse the Bradleys and TOWs in general when I am advancing.

[Artur]

After thinking a while I say The us should have one company of Abrams and 3 companies of M60A3 TTS.
Also the solution to have one Bradley battalion and one M113 battalion seems good to me after rethinking this.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

Then we will treat the Bradley battalion as if it was a tank battalion. At least in defense. I think artillery will be solution to the problem they pose, if we hit that treeline and make them move, they loose their advantage.

But BMP-2 with Konkurs is also formidable, when in dug-in defense. I have no worries about the future. :smoke: :cool:

[dita]

Hmmm, looks like I need to practice the art of using the Bradleys. They seem never to get the TOW shot off when I use them. Just sit there, waiting, and getting "brewed up" :(

[Pannonicus]

Hmmm, looks like I need to practice the art of using the Bradleys. They seem never to get the TOW shot off when I use them. Just sit there, waiting, and getting "brewed up" :(

How is it possible? TOW has a very small minumim range, so it is not like Malyutka, that you need wide open spaces to use it. If you do not move in a round, they should work...

[Artur]

Use smoke, very large smoke. Then you can fire without being threatened. Very unfair, very effective... :devious:

Artur.

[shadowcougar]

Well this really looks like a global disarmament here...

If you change all Bradleys to M113s some 100X7 TOW missiles will be gone. Quite a difference. I also think the US contingent is a bit too strong, I already PM-ed about it to DD.

A good solution may be be
1. Change the Abrams companies to M60A3 TTS
2. Change one battalion of Bradleys to M113s and leave the other with Bradleys.

Another good solution may be
1. Leave the Abrams but give more tanks to WP
2. Change one battalion of Bradleys to M113s and leave the other with Bradleys.

Artur.


Make the Arm battilioms with M-60a3 and add a troop of the 3/8th Cav and give them the M-1's and then you can make some of the Brads in the Inf battilion M-113's cause the Cav will have M-3's. should weaken the US a little while still giving them a chance against the T-80's.

BTW I want the US and think this could be used to balance it out a bit.

[Pannonicus]

Use smoke, very large smoke. Then you can fire without being threatened. Very unfair, very effective... :devious:

Artur.

If you already have thermo sight... A good slavo from BM-21/22 would still make your life difficult though behind the smoke curtain. :D

[Artur]

If you already have thermo sight... A good slavo from BM-21/22 would still make your life difficult though behind the smoke curtain. :D

I made tests. Bradleys in oct. 84' have thermal sight. Behind smoke they are dangerous.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

:cry: :cry: :cry:

:OHNO:

[Artur]

:cry: :cry: :cry:

:OHNO:
Don't worry our superior doctrine will prevail :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Artur.

[dita]

Don't worry our superior doctrine will prevail :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Artur.


Or my inability to use them (bradleys) properly will help you! :laugh:

[Pannonicus]

Don't worry our superior doctrine will prevail :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Artur.

It is a dialectic necessity of scientific socialism! :nuts:

[shadowcougar]

need to used with a overwatch.

[mr_clark]

It is a dialectic necessity of scientific socialism! :nuts:
LOL, you would make a good Kommissar...

[dita]

If the M1 are replace by some M60s, what model? I see a distinct difference between the m60a3 and the m60a3(TTS) ;)

[mr_clark]

I opt for the worst possible :P

[dita]

I opt for the worst possible :P

:laugh: No doubt you do :laugh:

[mr_clark]

Well, I am alos pushing for the T-55 as the main GDR tank...

[Double Deuce]

If the M1 are replace by some M60s, what model? I see a distinct difference between the m60a3 and the m60a3(TTS) ;)They would be the M60A3(TTS) version. While they do have thermals, their speed and armor is not the best and so they are very vulnerable while in the offense. Since this campaign will be a Meeting Engagement of sorts care will need to be taken by both sides when advancing.

[dita]

Just played a quick battle and seen how vunerable they are :shock:

Whilst they held their own against the T-72 and T-62s they didn`t get many 1st time penetrative hits. The Soviet armour appears to be quit thick. This is from a couple of hexes away.

[Double Deuce]

Just played a quick battle and seen how vunerable they are :shock:

Whilst they held their own against the T-72 and T-62s they didn`t get many 1st time penetrative hits. The Soviet armour appears to be quit thick. This is from a couple of hexes away.Maybe not thick but the T-72 has a fairly small turret whilst the front slope is VERY steep. You need a solid shot to punch through. The M60 is big, bulky and offers a nice target to the enemy unless you can get into a hull down position. This is something not really modelled in SPMBT. Even with the reverse feature you still have to pop up to shoot which exposes the tank.

[dita]

"hull down", now there is a feature we should be pushing for over at the cammo group forums :)

[Pannonicus]

Isnt that simulated? I remember reading somewhere, that if you stand still on a hex with "rough" terrain, after one turn you will be hull-down.

Something I really miss is the ability of infantry to dug in when staying at a place. In SP3 it worked, and it is nice in an attack-counterattack scenario, where you have to hold your ground afterwards.

[Double Deuce]

Changes made to Base OOB.

[Pannonicus]

Less TOW! Made me happy!

[mr_clark]

Me too :)

I must admit I kinda like this OOB how it is atm. There enough Bradleys and Abrams to be a hard nut to crack but not enough to make it a rock...

[Double Deuce]

No real changes, just wanted to bump this OOB up with the others. :)

[Double Deuce]

DRAFT COCAT unit File completed on my PC.

[The Warrior]

Unless I`m missing something (which I`m sure I am;) ) whenever I use bradleys, they seem to go BANG in spectacular fashion :(

Oh. You have that problem too. I though it was just me. :)

[The Warrior]

Don't worry our superior doctrine will prevail :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes:

Artur.

I'll take that challege. :devil:

[Double Deuce]

Added a Stinger BN to the US Brigade HQ unit.

[Pannonicus]

That's tough. Maybe upgrade our Strelas to Iglas then? Just to keep the balance.

[Shortreengage]

That's tough. Maybe upgrade our Strelas to Iglas then? Just to keep the balance.
No it's not. That is how they are assigned down to the units. It's actually a Battery. One Plt of five to each Maneuver BN and 5 for HQ and Brigade rear/Arty. Did you want to add up MANPADS? Besides We need somethind counter that "Flock of Hinds".

[mr_clark]

Hmm, well, I would say every NATO triple A can put a quite heavy dent into the Hinds. :P (if they are seen that is :P)

And I would say after all our complete Anti Air system is not as effective as yours, though ours is larger.

[Shortreengage]

Why have the Stingers not been removed from the BN MTOEs? The 20 MANPADS Teams are all the Brigade gets.Am I to assume that these points are available too?

[Double Deuce]

Why have the Stingers not been removed from the BN MTOEs? The 20 MANPADS Teams are all the Brigade gets. Am I to assume that these points are available too?For the time they will stay. The WP has a huge amount of Strela's and so I think the NATO forces should have a little bump in the MANPAD area.

I'm finishing up the last couple of tactical maps and will then superimpose the hex grid. At that time we'll go back, finalize the OOB's, rules and start deploying on the operational map. I'm trying to avoid starting/continuing any detailed discussions until the Campaign Design contest is over at least until the submission date is reached.

Also waiting for the WinSPMBT 2.5 patch (if thats what they are still calling it).

[Tanker]

Another Patch? What's this one supposed to address?

[Double Deuce]

From the Shrapnel WinSPMBT Forums (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=388195&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1).


Supplemental patch ver2.5
10/17/05 12:34 PM

Gentlemen

There will be a supplement issued for the patch that addresses the following issues

1] ammo dump secondary expolsions causing CTD's--fixed

2] Defenders not getting "99" reaction code - fixed

3] Map editor scrolling - fixed

4} Roads sometimes missing on mini maps- fixed

Plus a couple of other code changes that will be detailed later

As well there will be a number of new sceanrios added plus 42 OOB's ( to date ) have had corrections or changes in some way. A number of new photos have been added and there have been a few additional Icons added.

There is no release date for the supplement as yet but it should be ready before November.

Once that is completed Andy and I will begin work in WinSPWW2

Don