2nd MRD (-) OOB (NATO v WP) - Soviet Union

[Double Deuce]

Here is the current DRAFT OOB for;

2nd Motorized Rifle Division (-) - Soviet Union

...HQ/2nd Motorized Rifle Division
......x2 MT-LB 1V23

......2 Rec Bn/2nd MR Div
.........x9 Scout Team
.........x12 BRDM-2
.........x3 SA-7 SAM
......2 AT Bn/2nd MR Div
.........x1 BRDM-2
.........x1 SA-7 SAM
.........x9 BRDM-2 Spandrel
.........x1 SA-7 SAM
.........x9 BRDM-2 Spandrel
......2 Eng Bn/2nd MR Div
.........x9 Engineer Sec
.........x9 BTR-70
.........x9 DZM
.........x3 T-62 KMT-5
.........x2 Barge Carrier
......3 Art Bn/2nd DAG/2nd MR Div
.........x18 2S3M Akatsiya
.........x18 Ammo Carrier
.........x3 Art Observer
.........x3 PRP-2
......4 Art Bn/2nd DAG/2nd MR Div
.........x18 2S3M Akatsiya
.........x18 Ammo Carrier
.........x3 Art Observer
.........x3 PRP-2

...6th MRR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division (BTR)
......x2 MT-LB 1V23
......6 Rec Co/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x9 Scout Team
.........x12 BRDM-2
.........x3 SA-7 SAM
......6 Art Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x18 2S1 Gvozdika
.........x18 Ammo Carrier
.........x3 Art Observer
.........x3 PRP-2
......6 ADA Bty/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x4 ZSU-23-4 Shilka
.........x2 SA9 Gaskin
......6 ATM Bty/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x1 BRDM-2
.........x1 SA-7 SAM
.........x9 BRDM-2 Spandrel
......6 Eng Co/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x3 Engineer Sec
.........x3 BTR-70
.........x3 DZM
.........x1 T-62 KMT-5
......1 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BTR-70
.........x1 82mm Mortar Sec
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x1 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......2 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BTR-70
.........x1 82mm Mortar Sec
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x1 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......3 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BTR-70
.........x1 82mm Mortar Sec
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x1 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......4 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x40 T-64A

...7th MRR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division (BMP)
......x2 MT-LB 1V23
......7 Rec Co/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x9 Scout Team
.........x12 BRM-1
.........x3 SA-7 SAM
......7 Art Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x18 2S1 Gvozdika
.........x18 Ammo Carrier
.........x3 Art Observer
.........x3 PRP-2
......7 ADA Bty/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x4 ZSU-23-4 Shilka
.........x2 SA9 Gaskin
......7 ATM Bty/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x1 BRDM-2
.........x1 SA-7 SAM
.........x9 BRDM-2 Spandrel
......7 Eng Co/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x3 Engineer Sec
.........x3 BTR-70
.........x3 DZM
.........x1 T-62 KMT-5
......1 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BMP-2
.........x1 2-120mm Mortars
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x2 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......2 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BMP-2
.........x1 2-120mm Mortars
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x2 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......3 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 Mech Section
.........x39 BMP-2
.........x1 2-120mm Mortars
.........x6 SA-7 SAM
.........x2 SPG-9 Recoilless
.........x2 Sagger team
.........x9 RPG-7V Team
.........x2 UAZ-66
.........x6 7.62mm PKMS MMG
.........x6 30mm AGS-17 GL
.........x3 UAZ Jeep
......4 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x40 T-64B

...9th TR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division
......x2 MT-LB 1V23
......9 Rec Co/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
.........x9 Scout Team
.........x12 BRM-1
.........x3 SA-7 SAM
.........x3 PT-76B
......9 Art Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x18 2S1 Gvozdika
.........x18 Ammo Carrier
.........x3 Art Observer
.........x3 PRP-2
......9 ADA Bty/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x4 ZSU-23-4 Shilka
.........x2 SA9 Gaskin
......9 ATM Bty/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x1 BRDM-2
.........x1 SA-7 SAM
.........x9 BRDM-2 Spandrel
......9 Eng Co//9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x3 Engineer Sec
.........x3 BTR-70
.........x3 DZM
.........x1 T-62 KMT-5
......1 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 T-64B
......2 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 T-72M
......3 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
.........x31 T80B

[Pannonicus]

Like in East Germany, having 4 types of tanks in a TR is also very unlikely here. It would create a logistical nightmare. T-80 and maybe some T-64 (as replacement stuff from strategic reserve, or "M" (Mobilization) unit) would be good enough. Lets keep T-72s for the satellite armies.

[JMS]

Like in East Germany, having 4 types of tanks in a TR is also very unlikely here. It would create a logistical nightmare. T-80 and maybe some T-64 (as replacement stuff from strategic reserve, or "M" (Mobilization) unit) would be good enough. Lets keep T-72s for the satellite armies.

No T-72s with the Soviets in Germany, only in Czechoslovakia. They used T-64A/Bs and then T-80s, but I this were rather scarce pre-1987.

[mr_clark]

No T-72s with the Soviets in Germany, only in Czechoslovakia. They used T-64A/Bs and then T-80s, but I this were rather scarce pre-1987.
Right, because most units in EastGermany were Guards units anyways, and the Guards used only T-64s and then 'upgraded' directly to the T-80.

[Artur]

I would leave the T72s to the Hungarians only :devil:

After 30 years we still have them...:rolleyes:

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

I would keep them with the NVA as well, mixed with T-55s. T-62s probably would have been destroyed by that time, as they were never so numerous in NVA inventory, as far as I know. T-72s would be delivered by Soviets, while T-55AMs (or whatever they had) would be brought forward from strategic reserve/mobilization units.

[mr_clark]

I would keep them with the NVA as well, mixed with T-55s. T-62s probably would have been destroyed by that time, as they were never so numerous in NVA inventory, as far as I know. T-72s would be delivered by Soviets, while T-55AMs (or whatever they had) would be brought forward from strategic reserve/mobilization units.
Damn Pannonicus. IN the first moment I thought it was me who had written that...
I completely agree with that. There where only very few T-62 in the NVA. Actually your chance to see a T-72 was higher and there weren't many of those around...

[Pannonicus]

Damn Pannonicus. IN the first moment I thought it was me who had written that...
I completely agree with that. There where only very few T-62 in the NVA. Actually your chance to see a T-72 was higher and there weren't many of those around...

Looks like we share similar history and interest... Although I do not have a Colonel in the family, only a First Sergeant.

[mr_clark]

Looks like we share similar history and interest... Although I do not have a Colonel in the family, only a First Sergeant.
Yes it seems to me more and more that way.
Well, nothing bad about it :)

[Pannonicus]

Yes it seems to me more and more that way.
Well, nothing bad about it :)

Not at all! :)

[mr_clark]

We should e-mail to talk about our lives...

[Artur]

After taking another look at the units it came to my mind that as the rifle regiments have one tank battalion, the tank regiment should have a rifle battlaion as well (with BTRs). This is the case in real life as well...

Artur.

[John Osborne]

After taking another look at the units it came to my mind that as the rifle regiments have one tank battalion, the tank regiment should have a rifle battlaion as well (with BTRs). This is the case in real life as well...

Artur.
Your going to have to name the sources that your making these statments from :)

I agree that a Motorized Rifle Division has 2 MRR (BTR), 1 MRR (BMP) and 1 TR. However a Tank Regiment to a MRD has only 3 TB and so on but no MRB. A TR to a Tand Division HAS 3 TB and 1 MRB. Oh, and I'm getting this from ST100-7 OPFOR Battle Book.

Plus is the number correct for the 2MRD? Is there a 2MRD? Not sure if thats correct?

JohnO

[Artur]

I have this document.

Artur.

[John Osborne]

I have this document.

Artur.
Nice document, but on page 1-4 OPFOR Battle Book ST 100-7, OPFOR TO&E Structures, it states that a Mechanized Infanrty Brigade (MIBR)in a MECHANIZED INFATRY DIVISION (MID)consits of only THREE mechanized Infantry battalion and ONE tank battalion. In a TANK DIVISION (TD), the mechanized infantry brigade has only two mechanized infantry battalions and a tank battalion.

Now, because you have a MID (2MID)and not a TD. A tank brigade (TBR) in a Mechanized Infantry Division has only THREE tank battalions as its only maneuver elements.

Now if we were talking about a Separate Infantry Brigade thats a differant story :)

Also this is just a discussion, DD would have the final say so :)

Strange for some reason it won't let me do an attachment to this message :mad:

[Pannonicus]

I have this document.

Artur.
Where is this from? Quite interesting!

[Double Deuce]

Also this is just a discussion, DD would have the final say so :)I am using FM 100 2-3 "The Soviet Army Troops, Organization and Equipment" (June 1991) for my references.

According to this manual;
"The TR (of the MRD) lacks organic motorized rifle assets. It does have reconnaissance, air defense, signal, engineer and chemical protactive assets as well as limited CSS capability similar to that found in the MRR."

It also mentions that;
"Starting in 1989, the Soviets are convering the TR, MRD to a BMP equipped MRR."

I am also aware that US Army Manuals may not the definitive source for 100% accurate data on WP organization. Soviet Manuals would probably be more accurate, but alas, I don't have any. :D

[John Osborne]

I am using FM 100 2-3 "The Soviet Army Troops, Organization and Equipment" (June 1991) for my references.

According to this manual;
"The TR (of the MRD) lacks organic motorized rifle assets. It does have reconnaissance, air defense, signal, engineer and chemical protactive assets as well as limited CSS capability similar to that found in the MRR."

It also mentions that;
"Starting in 1989, the Soviets are convering the TR, MRD to a BMP equipped MRR."

I am also aware that US Army Manuals may not the definitive source for 100% accurate data on WP organization. Soviet Manuals would probably be more accurate, but alas, I don't have any. :D

Not aware of that change but however after further review. I stand correct :cheeky:

Just looked at my current copy of the Opposing Forces Organization Guide dated Sept 2004 it shows the changes you mention.

Check the attachment.

John

[Double Deuce]

Not aware of that change but however after further review. I stand correct :cheeky: Having gotten out in 1994 my reference materials are a little dated. Most of my materials are related to the former Soviet era. So I'm pretty accurate on thats stuff....most of the time.:D

[Double Deuce]

Plus is the number correct for the 2MRD? Is there a 2MRD? Not sure if thats correct?Not sure. I just picked one. :whist:

[John Osborne]

Having gotten out in 1994 my reference materials are a little dated. Most of my materials are related to the former Soviet era. So I'm pretty accurate on thats stuff....most of the time.:D

If your nice to me and help me with my rules for a campaign that I'm working on I could make arrangements for you to get an updated copy :p

[Double Deuce]

If your nice to me and help me with my rules for a campaign that I'm working on I could make arrangements for you to get an updated copy :pEmail me with what you need. :D

[John Osborne]

Email me with what you need. :D

Do you still want a copy of the current documents of OPFOR?

[Double Deuce]

Do you still want a copy of the current documents of OPFOR?Of course. Might come in handy for designing scen's after the collapse of the Soviet Union. :laugh:

[Pannonicus]

:blab: Our great ally, the Soviet Union will never collapse! ;) Where did you get this "sacrilegious" (although for a communist, this word means nothing idea about the fall of the big brother of the oppressed people of the world? :rolleyes:

[Spark Vark]

:blab: Our great ally, the Soviet Union will never collapse! ;) Where did you get this "sacrilegious" (although for a communist, this word means nothing idea about the fall of the big brother of the oppressed people of the world? :rolleyes:

Maybe the idea won't seem so crazy once final results of the campaign are in! Quick, switch sides now while you still have a chance! :cheeky: Defect now and get, uh, a free vacation! :whist:

[Pannonicus]

Maybe the idea won't seem so crazy once final results of the campaign are in! Quick, switch sides now while you still have a chance! :cheeky: Defect now and get, uh, a free vacation! :whist:

I love treason, but I despise traitors! ;)
(Talleyrand, I think)

So I wont be one...

[Shortreengage]

No Independant Tank Battalion? Just curious. MRD's in the GSFG had them in 80's. Also 2MRD was 2GMRD(Taman Guards) in Moscow. Palace guard unit. they're the one that shot up the parliment in the 90's.

8Guards Army in 80's: 79GTD Jena, 27GMRD Halle, 39GMRD Ohrdruf, 57GMRD Naumburg.

I also have some detailed TOE for Regiments if needed/wanted.

Shortreengage

[Artur]

I would be interested to read about them.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

No Independant Tank Battalion? Just curious. MRD's in the GSFG had them in 80's. Also 2MRD was 2GMRD(Taman Guards) in Moscow. Palace guard unit. they're the one that shot up the parliment in the 90's.

8Guards Army in 80's: 79GTD Jena, 27GMRD Halle, 39GMRD Ohrdruf, 57GMRD Naumburg.I was originally going to use the 39th of the 8th GTA as the main Pact unit BUT needed to revert to a single digit MRD unit designation for COCAT unit name character restrictions. Long story. Anyway, after 6 months of heavy fighting units are plugged in wherever needed and few if any are near full strength.

[shadowcougar]

I would of thought we would be fighting woth Shermans abd T-34's

[Pannonicus]

I would of thought we would be fighting woth Shermans abd T-34's

LOL, I would always take on a Sherman in a T-34/85. :devil:

[Shortreengage]

LOL, I would always take on a Sherman in a T-34/85. :devil:
I'm sure you would. How about Egypt vs Israel in 56?

[mr_clark]

Well, maybe the difference was that the Israeli Shermans had been upgraded some, with the crews having had training, while the Egyptians put green crews into 'original WW2 style' T-34...

[Pannonicus]

I'm sure you would. How about Egypt vs Israel in 56?

I am talking about YOUR Shermans, the "Ronsons" as they are more commonly known... Israelis are an entirely different matter.

[Spark Vark]

I am talking about YOUR Shermans, the "Ronsons" as they are more commonly known... Israelis are an entirely different matter.

Wasn't that a British nickname for the Sherman? I also seem to remember more than one historian saying that the supposed reputation that led to said nickname was undeserved and exaggerated.

[Vesku]

And equally many say they burned way too often. None of us were there (I believe) so there is no point arguing on a secondhand info.

[Pergite]

Wasn't that a British nickname for the Sherman? I also seem to remember more than one historian saying that the supposed reputation that led to said nickname was undeserved and exaggerated.

Well, the reputation must have spread quickly because it had the same reputation in the Red Army.

"Which way to the front?"
"Follow the bruning shermans!"

[Artur]

Wasn't that a British nickname for the Sherman? I also seem to remember more than one historian saying that the supposed reputation that led to said nickname was undeserved and exaggerated.

Another good nickname was Tommy cooker :laugh: .

Artur.

[Spark Vark]

And equally many say they burned way too often. None of us were there (I believe) so there is no point arguing on a secondhand info.

Very true. I just wanted to point out that there is some disagreement as to how volatile the Sherman actually was.

Actually, I'd be interested in know if the Israelis (since they were mentioned earlier) made any survivability modifcations to their Shermans, along with their fire control and armament upgrades.

[Stonefire]

Maybe the israeli put an diesel engine in the sherman?
The WWII version had a petrol engine.

[Pannonicus]

Maybe the israeli put an diesel engine in the sherman?
The WWII version had a petrol engine.

Except the M4A2 which had diesel. But because of logistics, the US did not use it in Europe.

[dita]

Maybe the israeli put an diesel engine in the sherman?
The WWII version had a petrol engine.

Not only did the M51 Sherman (israeli variant) had a cummins diesel engine is also had a 105mm gun. Some references also refer to night vision equipment.

Some photos and info-

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/sherman/M-51.html

[Double Deuce]

Changes Posted!

[Double Deuce]

Draft COCAT unit File created on my PC.

[Double Deuce]

Bumped to keep it on the 1st page for easier review/reference.