Round and Round we go...

[Don Maddox]

I'm curious how many people attempt large-scale encirclements on a regular basis in TOAW. If so, what are the main difficulties you encounter and how effective do you think this tactic is?

Has anyone successfully broken out from a large encirclement operation? If so, did you break out or did you send forces to break in to the pocket?

[Don Maddox]

JAMiAM - Hate to sound Clintonesque, but define "large-scale"...

I've had many occasions to be on both ends of encirclement situations. In the Red Storm in the East tournament, the Korsun scenario that we played begins with Hube's men in an encircled and out of supply position. I tried to move the pocket toward the relief force while punching my way in. Very few of the pocketed troops made it out, though some did. In general, it was a rout for the pocketed troops, as it was historically.

Many games of Barbarossa '41 that I've played have had what would be "large-scale" encirclements in games with a smaller scale. It is not uncommon for entire armies of the Soviets to become pocketed in the early game, as they are under shock penalties and often are in reorg. If possible, it is a good idea to disband the units to the extent that you can balancing the need to keep enough defenders in the surrounded urban areas to burn off attacks rounds and MP's from the advancing Axis forces. However, they are sitting ducks over the long term and whatever forces can be put back into the inventory pool should be salvaged wherever possible. If they are attacked while out of supply, then all of the equipment losses are permanent, with no portion of them being returned to inventory.

In Tobruk '41, I've played several games where forces become pocketed.

In a set of mirrored games with Sapper, I pinned a fair portion of the 7th Armored against some dunes to the SE of Gabr Saleh, while playing as the Axis. Unfortunately, for me, he was able to reestablish supply to them. Playing as the CW, I allowed the 7th Armored to become pocketed at Bir el Essem. Since the hex is a supply source, I figured it was safer to hedgehog in a teardrop formation anchored on the peak hex to the NE and defend the eight hexes, rather than try to effect a fighting withdrawal hounded by 15th Pz, and other assorted Axis units. A rout would have probably ensued. Of course, that decision was made before I discovered that the version that we are playing (v3.6) has a problem with the 2nd SA division reinforcements entering in a frozen state. The games are on hold, until the opposing ladder captains decide what to do.

In the tournament game against Keke (Sheik Yerbouti) using v 3.3 of Tobruk '41, there were many situations where he utilized his player two advantage to great effect in encircling and cutting off the supply to my formations. It took a lot of work to keep his recon units out of my rear areas, and my forces had to rely on a combination of advancing to the rear, and being relieved by reserves to keep from being pocketed and/or starved.

In general though, I try to not let my forces be trapped, unless the circumstances are extreme and warrant it, or the forces are "expendable" like rear guard units and roadblockers.

When Daniel gets his big Operation Braunschwieg scenario completed, it will be interesting to see how or if a major encirclement develops on either side.

[Berkut]

In Europe Aflame large scale encirclements are not uncommon, for both sides, although I spend a lot of time being careful to avoid them.

The Soviets get cutt off a lot early because of the shock bonus, and the Axis player ahs to be careful whith his armored units not to get too agressive, because the Soviet player can cut off those spearheads pretty easily.

The French player can also cut off German penetrations sometimes, depending on how localized the attack is. Spoiling flank attack can be important for the simple reason of draining supply and troops from potential counter-attackers.

Berkut

[Martin Schenkel]

I've found that the best encirclements are on the small scale, in terms of hexes surrounded. 1, 2, or 3 hexes are the best, as there is little or no room for the defenders to retreat, thus they evaporate quicker. I'm currently playing Overlord 44 as the Allies, and have pocketed roughly 3 German divisions (one being a Panzer Division) plus non-divisionals within a fairly large, though continuous perimeter (roughly 5 hexes deep and 7 hexes wide), southwest of Bayeux. To contain and reduce the pocket, I have 3 US Divisions (2 Infantry, 1 Armoured) and 3 British Divisions (1 Infantry, 2 Armoured). With these resources, I'm having trouble reducing the pocket in good time to release these formations, and yet still keep them in good shape for further operations.

In the same game, I cut off 2 division equivalents in and around Caen, within a rough line of 4 hexes, with almost all the hexes stacked to the limit. All German units were destroyed and all hexes captured within 4-5 turns. It required only the 3 British/Canadian Infantry Divisions (with armoured support) on the perimeter to reduce the pocket.

In the end, I don't think large-scale encirclements in TOAW are effective, unless you have the time to let the cut-off troops starve. If you're pressed for time, go for the tactical encirclements instead. On the other hand, a large-scale encirclement can imobilize many of the enemy's forces, which may be critical enough for a victory, especially if those forces are the core of the enemy's mobile/armoured force.

[Dan Neely]

in a 1.5 EA game I encircled between 1/3 and 1/2 of the red army in a ~5x5 hex pocket with moscow as the westernmost tip. My initial push with armor/motorized units stalled after pushing the inner forts back into moscow itself. by the time I'd resupplied and brought the leg infantry forward (my initial breach was 4 or 5 hexes wide and I needed them to clear the flanks before advancing) my opponent had dumped an enormous number of troops into the city and adjacent hexes, but had left his flanks very thin. I wanted to move at least 4-5 hexes past moscow to prevent a sudden russian push from reversing the supply shifts and I knew that the massive ammounts of arty in the inner line garrisons would inflict major losses so I wanted to minimize the number of attacks against them as much as possible. I'd collapsed the rear of the pocket to the west until the entire pocket was overstacked, and began hammering it into oblivion. If Andrew had managed to get the inner line garrisons with thier massive arty contingents into his stalingrad defence line, I doubt I'd've been able to bludgeon my way through to win the game. The several arty corps he'd dug in behind the front line were costing me 3-5 corps of infantry/hex captured. Most of the corps I'd used in the drive were reduced from 2/3-1/2 to 1/3-1/10 strength.

[Don Maddox]

Originally posted by Martin Schenkel
I've found that the best encirclements are on the small scale, in terms of hexes surrounded.

In the end, I don't think large-scale encirclements in TOAW are effective, unless you have the time to let the cut-off troops starve.

Why wouldn't it be effective? I understand that a larger force would probably be able to endure longer and be harder to destroy, however, the loss of this force would be a serious blow to the enemy. Or are you referring to the number of hexes surrounded vs the amount of enemy units surrounded?

[Martin Schenkel]

Originally posted by Maddog


Why wouldn't it be effective? I understand that a larger force would probably be able to endure longer and be harder to destroy, however, the loss of this force would be a serious blow to the enemy. Or are you referring to the number of hexes surrounded vs the amount of enemy units surrounded?

Yes, I am refering to the area of territoy that the pocket covers. No doubt, such an encirclement can become the focal point of a battle/campaign. The 6th Army at Stalingrad held out for more than two months. The Red Army had initially underestimated the size (in terms of soldiers) of the pocket, and had to leave larger forces behind to contain/reduce the pocket, weakening their drive into the German rear. Similarly, the massive encirclements during the summer of 1941, although immobilizing countless Russian divisions, tied down the German infantry slogging behind the Panzers. A handful of Panzer divisions were running amok behind Russian lines, while the bulk of German forces pounded away at the pockets. And even still thousands upon thousands of Russians were still able to escape the encirclement simply because the pocket was so large (in terms of territory), and there weren't enough German units to close the ring completely. The escaping Russians just slipped through the gaps. Then again, most escaped with little more than their rifles, and very little heavy equipment.

You have to balance the amount of forces you have, along with how much time you have. If you have all the time in the world, you can sit around letting the pocket starve, chewing into it little by little. Maybe I'm just no good at reducing pockets :D , but I found a large (in area) pocket delays my advance quite a bit. I personally prefer to destroy enemy forces more methodically. Cut-off the specific units I want in 1 or 2 hexes at a time. When I know pretty much exactly what I'm going to cut off, I can then allocate my forces more efficiently.