NATO vs Warsaw Pact Combat Campaign

[Double Deuce]

For those who are interested in participating I have set up this "starter poll". If you would like to take part in the upcoming WinSPMBT NATO vs Warsaw Pact Combat Campaign please submit your interst here.

This is a public poll so I can gauge interest and you can see who is interested in what side. Voting here in no way commits you to playing, I am just wanting to see how many slots we can fill to get an idea of how big/small to make this thing.

This will not kickoff right away as it is under development and I'll need to get my hands on the Enhanced WinSPMBT CD and get a little familair with it beforehand. :smoke:

Please post any questions or comments related to the Campaign here.

[Pepper]

I'd like to play -- any side, any force, but not a leadership position (this time!) as I want to get a feel for it first.
many thanks - this looks like its going to be alot of fun.

[Pannonicus]

As I said, I would be primarily interested in WP forces - I would like to command any Hugarian forces if present (in Souther Germany it is not impossible, just after taking Austria forces should North-West instead of South-West as originally planned). Otherwise a Soviet Tank Regiment would be my choice.

So what about a Hungarian Tank Regiment? :)

[Double Deuce]

So what about a Hungarian Tank Regiment? :)Well.... I don't know about a full Tank Regiment BUT I am contemplating adding some Hungarian units. Would they still be "loyal" Pact supporters if the war dragged on? I could use them instead of East German or Czech Forces OR to supplement them.

[mr_clark]

On the Hungarian thing: I personally think the GDR would be more loyal as the Hungarians, but if the game should still take place after the war had raged for a year or something I doubt there will be many GDR units left...

I would be in for a spot in the WP.
If there is a GDR regiment I would like to play it, but at least I am not sure whether I have the experiance to do something more than a Regimental Command job.

[Double Deuce]

I would be in for a spot in the WP.
If there is a GDR regiment I would like to play it......And they may still be included with a Regiment at most but I haven't started work on their OOB yet. They wouldn't be at full strength though (I'm trying to keep this manageable :D ).

[mr_clark]

Allright :)

Pity I am away from home until early september, because otherwise I could get the OOB of a GDR MR or Tank regiment from the original officers training book...

[John Osborne]

I would like to be on the NATO side but in control of the West German units. Will there be West German Units in this campaign?

JohnO

[aef027]

I am also interested in participating. Any side is fine by me, but would prefer playing on the NATO side.

-Al (manhunter)

[Double Deuce]

I would like to be on the NATO side but in control of the West German units. Will there be West German Units in this campaign?Most likely, yes. I am planning for US, Canadian, West German and French but may drop the French based on how much larger the extra Regiment would make this (and more administrative work for me).

[Double Deuce]

I decided to remove the French forces from the NATO OOB. This will make room for me to have 1x US Brigade, 1x West German Brigade and 1x Canadian Brigade (or about 1x Division).

The WP side will also have 1x Division made up of 2x Soviet MRR's and 1x Soviet Tank Regiment. It will also include 1x East German MRR (mixed inf and armor) and 1x Hungarian Regiment (mixed inf and armor).

[Artur]

I am interested. I like SPMBT the most of the SP series. And the NATO - WP confict is my favorite as well.

I would apply for the command of the US brigade or the Soviet Tank Regiment (Pannonicus will get his Hungarian unit anyway)

I suggest to use hexes instead of zones or the Red Snow format.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

Well.... I don't know about a full Tank Regiment BUT I am contemplating adding some Hungarian units. Would they still be "loyal" Pact supporters if the war dragged on? I could use them instead of East German or Czech Forces OR to supplement them.

I would say that while in real life it would have been a question after a few months, in this game we should suppose this unit is full of hard-line Communist-party members. :)

Otherwise we will start an endless diplomatic/intel game again, like in Island Civil War. I am a little bit tired of that, although it was a lot of fun. Now I want interesting tactical schemes, not grand strategy with bloodless battles! (Although in real life I prefer the latter.)

[Double Deuce]

I would say that while in real life it would have been a question after a few months, in this game we should suppose this unit is full of hard-line Communist-party members. :) I have not settled on the final "plot" of the campaign yet. I have been toying with some alternative twists. One is that the Hungarians have quit the WP Club and with the help of Austria (who is Neutral) are abandoning their front line positions to seek "asylum in Austria".

Basically a mixed Hungarian Regimental sized unit is guarding the Pact front. THEN, after negotiating refuge in Austria (and safe passage through to home) they pack up and head toward the Austrian border near Passau. Both sides rush in to grab the area while the Hungarians fight through the Soviet/East German Forces trying to plug the gap (and extract a little revenge). Meanwhile, NATO gives the Hungarians support while trying to grab the open areas as well. In this scenario, Hungary would be on the NATO side.

[Double Deuce]

Otherwise we will start an endless diplomatic/intel game again, like in Island Civil War. I am a little bit tired of that, although it was a lot of fun. Now I want interesting tactical schemes, not grand strategy with bloodless battles! (Although in real life I prefer the latter.)Should be none of that this time as there will only be 2 sides.

[dita]

Count me in on this one!

Looks like there is to be no UK forces, but I`m not fussed which side anyway :)

With just the two sides, there should be alot of scope for (and easier I imagine) the "propaganda" and "intel" gathering operations. I can see the "public information service" now...... :)

[Double Deuce]

Looks like there is to be no UK forces, but I`m not fussed which side anyway :)Final OOB's have not been set yet! :whist: So you never know.

[Pannonicus]

UK units would be in NORTHAG, not likely to be found in Bavaria. But we can never know, this is for sure. Rather likely would be some Italian fellows wandering around. Originally Hungarian army was supposed to advance towards the Po river to the Northern Italian plains. (like my great-grandfather did in The Great War)

[Double Deuce]

UK units would be in NORTHAG, not likely to be found in Bavaria. But we can never know, this is for sure. Thats where they would start but after 6 months and maybe atactical nuke or 2 you plug holes in the front with whoever you can find. :laugh:

[Pannonicus]

I made some proposals about simulating the aftermath of these tactical nukes in the other topic. If you are interested, I can make it more concrete, i.e. % of reduction of troops effectiveness etc. I have read some studies about it, they also gave figures, based on tests with soldiers in MOPP4.

[Double Deuce]

Lets hold off on that for now. I'd like to add it but it would another admin task for me to take care of. :confused:

[Artur]

I'd rather not involve any nuclear weapons. If one side had used a tactical nuke the other side would have answered with an ICBM on a hostile city. What would have happened after than is unknown however we could all uninstall WinSPMBT and forget about this game and start playing Afterlife.

Let us introduce a simple supply rule instead.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

What do you think of? Strategically it makes sense, if you cut the supply of a modern mechanized formation, soon you will not have to fight them, simply collect the PWs...

[Double Deuce]

I'd rather not involve any nuclear weapons.I think the intent was that there would be already HOT areas and not that nukes would be an option for actual use.

[Pannonicus]

This is what I meant. Actually, I can imagine a situation when some tactical nukes are used, then suddenly both sides realize where it would end, so the make a "pact" that whatever the end, they slug it out by conventional means. Especially if none of the sides feel he will certainly loose, it would have been possible.

Keep in mind, both sides were mostly racional politicians, not fanatics/madmen.

[Artur]

To DD:

I know but even contaminated areas should not be included if I understand right.If there was any use of nuke even before you can never know what would have came next.

To Pannonicus.

Aunit being out of supply for a short time like the time interval of our campaign would mean less ammo. How much less and the rst of the details have ot be thought carefully. maybe a percentage like
(100-33*number of BIG battles fought in situation out of supply)That means after 3 battles you are totally out of ammo. Of course small skirmishes do not count in order not to drain ammo consumption with small unit attacks.

The only problem I see is the editing of lost of units. Of course if the CD editor has a copy-paste function that would help immensly.

Artur.

[Pannonicus]

Small skiemishes would be the real drain on supply in real life, I think. Believe me, automatic weapons eat ammo very fast...

[Artur]

Ok you are right. And it makes the rule more simple.

Artur.

[Viennamagic]

after seeing the post, maybe there would be some interest in an austrian OOB? the current SPMBT oob is pretty inaccurate, also, there is seems to be a general lack of knowledge of austrian war plans in many scenarios (such as TOAW) that do not capture the fact that in 1989 austria could field nearly 300,000 troops in some of the most heavily fortified terrain in europe.

btw reg. the hungarian OOB, i am not sure that their armored divison was fully equiped with t-72. in 1989 only the independant armored brigade (based in budapest) had the t-72, the armored divison had the t-55am - which made great targets for our kurassier jgpz.

as for the hungarians "rolling over austria" - sure thing boys. for 600 years hungarians entertained us with their notions of martial prowess :)

[Pannonicus]

Khmm, armored bridage, based in Budapest? Where did you get it from? Do you have a number? (Just to identify which unit you think of.)

T-72s were always at Tata, some 70km from Budapest. True, the mainstay type was the T-55A, later upgraded to AM, but T-72s were with 11th Tank Div as far as I know.

I have no illusion that Austria would have been a hard nut to crack. Nevertheless, dont forget that we had a Soviet Army Group in this theatre as well. Hungarian troops would have been only auxiliaries to that.

[Artur]

A very good friend of mine served at Tata in 88. They had T72s there by that time.

Artur.

[Viennamagic]

Khmm, armored bridage, based in Budapest? Where did you get it from? Do you have a number? (Just to identify which unit you think of.)


not sure to be honest. i remember that during 1987-88 you only had a very small number of T-72 (or so we thought). about 80, if i remember correctly - certainly not more than a regiment worth. i also remember something about an independant tank brigade that served as in instructor unit. in mob case it was to be manned be instructers, therefore 'crack'. and persumably therefore had the t-72s. but hey, u tell me.



I have no illusion that Austria would have been a hard nut to crack. Nevertheless, dont forget that we had a Soviet Army Group in this theatre as well. Hungarian troops would have been only auxiliaries to that.

ah yes, good old friends. however the main *soviet* route of advance was VIENNA-LINZ (connect with Czechs) PASSAU or SALZBURG - MUNICH. as this was an OMG function ( 4 hard-core divs) in composition if not name we expected you lot to "clear the way" (if there was any war warning and WP mob). given that the czechs were dedicated CGF we expected 1 div towards linz and 1 towards vienna to be their sole contribution. hungary was expected (again, under a mob scenario) to be the main threat simply because of numbers (not equipment) 1 armored + 1 MR div towards vienna, and 3 of those old divs towards GRAZ.

of course all of this was secondary to large speznatz ops in the tirol to prevent italian transit.

question to you: we estimated that for the armored div (cat 2) you would need a week to get ready - and that was the best unit - is that right?)

did hungarian airborne have any potential alpine mission assigned to them? to be honest, i never heard of them previously :). all alpin activity was expected to come from Front speztanz/

[Pannonicus]

not sure to be honest. i remember that during 1987-88 you only had a very small number of T-72 (or so we thought). about 80, if i remember correctly - certainly not more than a regiment worth. i also remember something about an independant tank brigade that served as in instructor unit. in mob case it was to be manned be instructers, therefore 'crack'. and persumably therefore had the t-72s. but hey, u tell me.


ah yes, good old friends. however the main *soviet* route of advance was VIENNA-LINZ (connect with Czechs) PASSAU or SALZBURG - MUNICH. as this was an OMG function ( 4 hard-core divs) in composition if not name we expected you lot to "clear the way" (if there was any war warning and WP mob). given that the czechs were dedicated CGF we expected 1 div towards linz and 1 towards vienna to be their sole contribution. hungary was expected (again, under a mob scenario) to be the main threat simply because of numbers (not equipment) 1 armored + 1 MR div towards vienna, and 3 of those old divs towards GRAZ.

of course all of this was secondary to large speznatz ops in the tirol to prevent italian transit.

question to you: we estimated that for the armored div (cat 2) you would need a week to get ready - and that was the best unit - is that right?)

did hungarian airborne have any potential alpine mission assigned to them? to be honest, i never heard of them previously :). all alpin activity was expected to come from Front speztanz/

We had about 100 T-72 (Czech-made) at that time, yes, about a regiment. There was no dedicated training units as far as I know-training was carried out at the unit you served. Basicall, there were always three categories of soldiers - 1st, 2nd, 3rd "timers" - it means, that when every 8 months your unit got recruits, and started its training cycle again. So by the time you completed your 2 years of service, you went through it 3 times. But again, there was no special basic training or whatever. (And the 3 categories were like kasts...)

I dunno about mobilization times. I guess, for lower echelon units it was like what you mention, if things functioned properly. (most of the time they did not, however, starting the engines of Mobilization units for example was always a problem because of low readiness rates) For 1st line units, it would have been 72 hours approx. I think. (starting from no readiness level)

After the 50s we never had massive numbers of airborne forces. What we did have were two battalions of "deep recon" units, usually operating in groups of 6-14. Recon and sabotage. In late 80s, we had the 88. indep. air assault bat., they were heliborne. So probably no mass operations, but spetnaz-type actions. These recon units were available from early 70s I think, but their golden age was the 80s.

[Spark Vark]

If you're still taking players, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring. I enjoy SPMBT and I'd love the chance to mix it up in this kind of game. I'd be willing to play either side. Should be a fun game and a good learning experience.

[Viennamagic]

P,

you mentioned cat 1 units, did hungary have any at all besides the airmobile troops? also, do you have any estimates on reaction/mob times (guess would be enough). persuming the 4th tank is the best unit and the only "instantly available", what about the MRDs?

also, again ca. 1984, what was the amount of BMPs in inventory, and with in what units where they fielded? guesstimates would do.

do you or anyone else know of the Hungarian Austria - orientated OPs in the mid 1980s? My own time was a decade later, but I am aware of the odd bit of trivia, so to speak.

i am working on campaign based on this period and with those forces, and would appreciate your help!

[mr_clark]

Just if you are interested, in the GDR we expected a "regular" unit to be ready for combat in 48hours.
Of course nobody ever tried it out...

[Viennamagic]

Just if you are interested, in the GDR we expected a "regular" unit to be ready for combat in 48hours.
Of course nobody ever tried it out...

luckily enough. our mob time was 72 hours overall but that included the entire reserve defense establishment. the hungarians supposedly had a markedly inferior readyness (and moral) then the czechs, looking at Johnson's WP OOB of 1989 he seems to think the entire hungarian army was a 'cat 2', requiring weeks of mobilisation to deploy. that dosen't quite fit wit what i remember but i would be interested to know what hungarian units would be available in 1984 with 1 week TOTAL lead/mob time