New Huge Scenario

[saper]

Hi,

After long months of works I made simulation of army operations in 1939.

This is first draft of scenario - I'm waiting for your expectation and help with correction of mistakes if you will find any.

I will be thankful for opinion of persons with historical knowledge and skill of finding others than postgoebels sources.
(Geographic knowledge is base to any debate)

p.s:
* Some blind spot could be organization of German border regiments and Slovakian army, some others problem I had with organization of Red Army - I had different sources with not the same data.
* Very clever deployment of polish units I will deploy after 7.06.05 when I will receive scans with battalion and regiments detailed deployment.
* I had some Problem with SGO Polesie - half units of this Corps was build from previously breaking units - to eliminate situation when on map we have two unit with the same name I gave high number of this unit. F.e. 4 psk now is 204 psk, some unit without name, or grouped unit (f.e. tank bn od Polish motor brigades) presently have number - but this is incidental case
* Present ODB is prepared for future scenario in scale 1hex/5km and includes some units who should be grouped for bigger as for example independent recon tank companies.
* Problem of Polish armored forces - TKF are not marked on map (but maybe to mark this type of tank I should mark it as Japanese type 97), TKS-D are marked as Panzerjager I. Rest of polish armor is very clever. (except of 3 independent companies of R-17, I grouped this unit in one battalion, because they are traveling and was destroyed together)
* Artillery units includes gun crews as LRS (this is giving AT and AA possibility)
* My scenario not copy crap with upgreat of polish AT possibilities (question of better penetration possibilities of Polish AT rifles and guns)
* Units construction are builded on my analysis. For easier work on level of battalion every squads are marked as rifle squad(squads of HMG company should be marked as LRS but I had not enough passion to do this)
* Scenario includes supply from west via Romania.

Rest later.

p.s.s: I'm not will be answering for stupid posts.

[Ben Turner]

postgoebels sources.

This is an interesting new word.

some others problem I had with organization of Red Army - I had different sources with not the same data.

The reason for this is that the Soviets were repeatedly reorganising their armed forces at this point. The source for my Soviet OOB was Pavel Voylov. I think you'll find it's accurate.

* Problem of Polish armored forces - TKF are not marked on map (but maybe to mark this type of tank I should mark it as Japanese type 97),

This was just a TKS with a new engine. I suggest you use the TKS equipment for it.

TKS-D are marked as Panzerjager I.

This is fine for the 47mm armed TKS-D but two of these six tanks only had 37mm guns.

p.s.s: I'm not will be answering for stupid posts.

I take it by that you mean "posts made by Ben". I've tried to be helpful.

[saper]

Well, well - my little brother from UK, back from holiday.

First Ben - I saw your scenario, after our "debate" - I saw that you correct about half of mistakes what I found in your scenario - good move, but still very far of perfect ...



The reason for this is that the Soviets were repeatedly reorganizing their armed forces at this point. The source for my Soviet OOB was Pavel Voylov. I think you'll find it's accurate..

I see that you trying provoke me :). Ben I can give you address for this sources but tell my what for? "One language guy" will not understand Russian language.
But I'm open for your argumentation - if you will find mistakes, give me three different links with confirm - I will change it.


This was just a TKS with a new engine. I suggest you use the TKS equipment for it.

This is fine for the 47mm armed TKS-D but two of these six tanks only had 37mm guns.
.

Yes here you caught a detail but like in other problems your knowledge is not complete. In few sources some authors are written about TKF in meaning TKS with 20mm gun - name TKF (TKS-F) for this type of "tank" is result of shortcut of full name TKS with Fk 38 gun. This is reason why I wrongly used this name. Of course you have right that was "tank" TK with stronger engine named correctly TKF, but try to think logic ... Should I mark a bit stronger engine or bigger gun on list of equipment ?


In cause of TKS-D. In Poland before war was "tanks" TKD and TKS-D, TKS-D armed with 37mm gun, and TKD with 47mm gun. Some sources talking about TKD and some about TKS-D in 10 BP-M, but I will agree with you, even with gun 47mm marking it as Panzerjager I is exaggeration. This will be changed.


I take it by that you mean "posts made by Ben". I've tried to be helpful.

Ben I thing your low self-criticisms is very destructive for you - try thing positive.

Good wishes

[Ben Turner]

First Ben - I saw your scenario, after our "debate" - I saw that you correct about half of mistakes what I found in your scenario - good move, but still very far of perfect ...

The most important correction was of major errors in the deployment which you had singularly failed to spot.

I see that you trying provoke me :). Ben I can give you address for this sources but tell my what for? "One language guy" will not understand Russian language.

Eh? Pavel e-mailed me the data. I'm afraid I don't have the original files any more. So either e-mail him yourself or refer to my scenario. If it were me I'd e-mail Pavel, generally a bad idea to use a scenario as a source.

But I'm open for your argumentation - if you will find mistakes, give me three different links with confirm - I will change it.

I'm really not interested in debating the merits of your scenario in depth. I think the fact that it runs for three months says more about it than I ever could.

[saper]

Ben,

I’m not surprised your poor argumentation.
You gave me surprised lesson of knowledge about this historical period. After debates with you and your American friends, I’m changed my view about education of western people.
Scenarios are not creating by historic outsiders, I can understand why your American friend made scenario under level of critique. But you gave me bigger disappointment, after first our “debates” I was thinking that you are guy from USA – but you are Briton !!! You are a historic student!!! You had support from guy from Poland and from Ukraine (probably without them help your scenario should be big piece of mistakes) ... and after 1 hour I found in your scenario list of expectation for 3 piece of paper A4 size ...
I don’t care that in your scenario part of polish cavalierly is similar with Napoleons cuirassier, I don’t care about unhistorical construction of units, I don’t care about other craps, but why you don’t bought good map of Poland – I understood when in schools teachers was taking about geographical and climatically aspects of central Europe, you was absent.

Another problem is base only on German, “postGoebels” sources – but is difficult to require from guy who is using only one language to read other sources …

Effect … everybody can see in your scenario.

I understand why you don’t want to comment my scenario, and I not require this. You know that you are not equal partner to talk about 1939 with me.

Bye

p.s: You know that I am treating your experiment with trying to teach me history of my own country in pejorative categories.

[T-28A]

Gentlemen,

I'm certainly not going to admonish or something, but imho it would be much more productive if you both could find some time and put your criticisms on each other into a sort of short scenario reviews under Scenario Design or After Action sections of this forum. Not only this way would be much more productive, but also you'll give a chance to other peoples - such as myself - to discuss some unclear points other than wondering what exactly both of you mean.

Yours,
Pavel

[Ben Turner]

Ben,

I’m not surprised your poor argumentation.

Here we go. A long tirade. The reason why I refrained from commenting on your scenario extensively. Looks like I failed to stop you.

I don’t care that in your scenario part of polish cavalierly is similar with Napoleons cuirassier,

Presumably since it was you who pointed out to me in the first place that Polish cavalry were equipped with sabres and lances as well as rifles.

If you had bothered to check the TOAW database, you might note that sabre and lance squads have a higher AP strength than mounted rifles. Therefore I thought that I ought to put some in to represent the extra offensive capability this equipment gave Polish cavalry.

but why you don’t bought good map of Poland

I have a number of atlases and have refered to other maps on the internet and provided by Goran over at TDG. Where necessary I have made modifications- but nowhere have I seen information indicating Poland to be the kind of primeival wilderness it is portrayed as in your scenario. Take a look at the area around Tuchel Heath. Dense forests and hill country? Now read "Panzer Leader". Guderian didn't have much trouble slicing through this excellent tank country, since the heath itself is really quite small.

Another problem is base only on German, “postGoebels” sources

Sigh. I think I'll quote from earlier in your post:

"You had support from guy from Poland and from Ukraine"

Effect … everybody can see in your scenario.

Yes. Mine is the only scenario on this subject which actually feels like the historical campaign.

[Ben Turner]

Gentlemen,

I'm certainly not going to admonish or something, but imho it would be much more productive if you both could find some time and put your criticisms on each other into a sort of short scenario reviews under Scenario Design or After Action sections of this forum. Not only this way would be much more productive, but also you'll give a chance to other peoples - such as myself - to discuss some unclear points other than wondering what exactly both of you mean.

Yours,
Pavel

Thanks Pavel. Since it's Saper's thread, and he seems to have been doing most of the talking, I think I'll leave it to him to move it.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I'm impressed by the level of detail and I only had time for a quick glance at the scenario. I'm looking forward to playing it. I couldn't help noticing though some grammatical errors in the text briefing. Would you like me to correct them?

I'm affraid I won't be of much help with more detailed OOBs, as a matter of fact I was wondering if you could provide me with a detailed OOB of German, Slovakian, Polish and Soviet forces for this time period. Any additional material would be welcome as well. I'm currently trying to create a database with the relevant OOBs throughout history, for research purposes only.

You could really help me out here. It doesn't matter what format the information is presented in (.doc, .pdf, ...).

Should you (or anybody else out there) be interested in an OOB of the British Empire and Commonwealth on 3 September 1939 (down to company level), drop me a line. I can be reached at Northpole@Skynet.be.

What exactly do you mean by "post-Goebbels" sources? ANd what information do you require? Please send me an e-mail to this effect as I'm pretty sure I can find something in my private library on whatever it is you like to know about WWII (except Polish OOBs :) ). For a detailed day-to-day account of how the Germans planned their attack on Poland and lied about it, even to their ally Italy, read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer (or ask me for the appropriate passages).

Nice job. I'll play the scenario asap.

[Ben Turner]

I'm affraid I won't be of much help with more detailed OOBs, as a matter of fact I was wondering if you could provide me with a detailed OOB of German, Slovakian, Polish and Soviet forces for this time period.

For the Germans and the Poles (and various others you didn't list), the site you want is here;
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/000_admin/000oob.htm

That's the major source I used for my own scenario, available here; http://www.tdg.nu/articles/AARs/Poland_1939.htm

Should you (or anybody else out there) be interested in an OOB of the British Empire and Commonwealth on 3 September 1939 (down to company level), drop me a line. I can be reached at Northpole@Skynet.be.

Kinda interesting. What I'd be more keen to know is how many of the various TA formations were actually equipped at that date and with what.

What exactly do you mean by "post-Goebbels" sources?

Essentially any German source or any source which refers to German sources. Or at least that's my interpretation.

[saper]

Scenario have to high Attrition Divider - I thinking about correct version, i still thinking too, about details of scenario ...

I will answer for your post and e-mails in one post here ...

I will answer even for Barba "exception" ...

Patience !

[Ben Turner]

Scenario have to high Attrition Divider

You mean low. It's set at two in your scenario. I'll grant that this does appear to produce historical results on the map- but your losses are off the scale in terms of what happened historically.

[Bloodstar]

You mean low. It's set at two in your scenario. I'll grant that this does appear to produce historical results on the map- but your losses are off the scale in terms of what happened historically.

Don't get me wrong or Saper, but Germans had around 10000 dead I think in Polish campaign (and 500 in Yugoslavia yes I know) - so any TOAW scenario on Poland will be unrealistic because of not worked out completely blitzkrieg Stuka tactics and others in TOAW :)

I think that in Poland many units were shattered by Luftwaffe on the rail or on the move, interdiction cannot simulate completely this, also other things as well (armour breakthrough to some degree etc...).

Etc, even in large scenarios is very hard to simulate cauldron battles like Kiev (FITE, DNO...).


Mario

[Ben Turner]

Don't get me wrong or Saper, but Germans had around 10000 dead I think in Polish campaign (and 500 in Yugoslavia yes I know) - so any TOAW scenario on Poland will be unrealistic

Are you saying that it's impossible to get the historical losses for the Germans (16,343 KIA, 27,600 other casualties, 217 tanks)? I think my scenario demonstrates otherwise.

Etc, even in large scenarios is very hard to simulate cauldron battles like Kiev

It's very difficult to simulate any battle. But it is not impossible.

[Bloodstar]

[QUOTE=Ben Turner]Are you saying that it's impossible to get the historical losses for the Germans (16,343 KIA, 27,600 other casualties, 217 tanks)? I think my scenario demonstrates otherwise.


It's 16343? Is this 100% because I've read in two or three books where it say, around 10000, in one 11000 and something like that. 217 tanks? Well, those Pz1 were really hard to knock down :laugh:
Are breakdowns also there?

BTW, I am not into criticizing your or Saper scenario because I didn't play it. And also have no intentions, better would be if there would be scenario which would suggest polish defense BEHIND rivers like British and French have suggested them but they didn't listened :confused:
Is there also TO for Polish ministers to start packing their asses to planes to get them out of Poland? :p
And about losses, whatever they were low and Germans have considered them as low (compare it with 300000 dead, mia, wounded, pow German losses in attack on France and Benelux).


Mario

[laszlo.nemedi]

Gentlemen,

I'm certainly not going to admonish or something, but imho it would be much more productive if you both could find some time and put your criticisms on each other into a sort of short scenario reviews under Scenario Design or After Action sections of this forum. Not only this way would be much more productive, but also you'll give a chance to other peoples - such as myself - to discuss some unclear points other than wondering what exactly both of you mean.

Yours,
Pavel

Hi Pavel, good to see you!

I really agree with you. I don't really see the real background of the debate here. Saper, please be more specific!
As I know Ben if you have good arguments he will accept it!

[Ben Turner]

It's 16343? Is this 100% because I've read in two or three books where it say, around 10000, in one 11000 and something like that.

I think 16,343 is the final figure, including the Luftwaffe and casualties which were originally classified as "missing" but reclassified as KIA after the campaign was finished.

217 tanks? Well, those Pz1 were really hard to knock down :laugh:

Polish AT capability was less than satisfactory.

Are breakdowns also there?

I believe the figure of 217 is only for total losses; ie vehicles which could not be repaired and would count as "lost" in TOAW rather than just being moved to the replacement pool.

better would be if there would be scenario which would suggest polish defense BEHIND rivers like British and French have suggested them but they didn't listened :confused:

I have experimented with the idea of a scenario with an initial cease fire effect allowing the two players to choose their deployments. I am not 100% happy with the release version of my scenario as it is though and I want to change some things before I produce any variants.

Such a variant would be a very different and interesting scenario. At the moment I am torn between the need to represent the paralysis of the Polish forces and the desire to make the Polish side playable in PBEM. With a free deployment things would be much more balanced.

And about losses, whatever they were low and Germans have considered them as low (compare it with 300000 dead, mia, wounded, pow German losses in attack on France and Benelux).

I have about 160,000 as total German casualties in the campaign against France and the Low Countries. This is roughly in proportion with the losses they took in the Polish campaign when one considers the relative size of the forces the Germans were fighting in each case.

[Ben Turner]

I really agree with you. I don't really see the real background of the debate here. Saper, please be more specific!
As I know Ben if you have good arguments he will accept it!

The background to the debate was at TDG.

[Bloodstar]

I think 16,343 is the final figure, including the Luftwaffe and casualties which were originally classified as "missing" but reclassified as KIA after the campaign was finished.

OK, it is still not much - regarding the price Germans were willing to pay for lost territories in WW1.



Polish AT capability was less than satisfactory.

Well, I don't know what have destroyed those tanks then if Polish AT capability was "less than satisfactory". Pure logic would suggest that it was satisfactory for Pz1 etc. Pz1 was in any way obsolete for 1939. and 1940. as well.


I believe the figure of 217 is only for total losses; ie vehicles which could not be repaired and would count as "lost" in TOAW rather than just being moved to the replacement pool.


OK, and 550 planes (which is very much if it is true).


I have experimented with the idea of a scenario with an initial cease fire effect allowing the two players to choose their deployments. I am not 100% happy with the release version of my scenario as it is though and I want to change some things before I produce any variants.

Such a variant would be a very different and interesting scenario. At the moment I am torn between the need to represent the paralysis of the Polish forces and the desire to make the Polish side playable in PBEM. With a free deployment things would be much more balanced.

It would be also interesting to include French attack in the west, but full attack. That would be full German struggle and maybe certain defeat.



I have about 160,000 as total German casualties in the campaign against France and the Low Countries. This is roughly in proportion with the losses they took in the Polish campaign when one considers the relative size of the forces the Germans were fighting in each case.

Yes, my mistake 300000 is maybe all losses including Balkans, Crete.

[Ben Turner]

OK, it is still not much -

Yeah.

Well, I don't know what have destroyed those tanks then if Polish AT capability was "less than satisfactory". Pure logic would suggest that it was satisfactory for Pz1 etc. Pz1 was in any way obsolete for 1939. and 1940. as well.

The Pz-I was alright for what the Germans had in mind for it. Overall the losses of different types of German tank in Poland were about in proportion to the numbers in service at that time (89 of the 217 were Pz-Is).

OK, and 550 planes (which is very much if it is true).

I've seen a variety of different figures for the Luftwaffe's losses. 550 is certainly in the right area. You have to consider that the Poles had the benefit of a target rich environment in the campaign. The Luftwaffe would go on to take very much higher losses in similar subsequent campaigns.

It would be also interesting to include French attack in the west, but full attack. That would be full German struggle and maybe certain defeat.

Well a) that would be an entirely different scenario and b) any French attack could not have been mounted until half way through September, by which time Poland had already been shattered. In my scenario, I have included a number of TOs for the German player to start redeploying his forces to the West, which have to be taken early for a German victory to be possible.

Yes, my mistake 300000 is maybe all losses including Balkans, Crete.

The figure might be total Wehrmacht casualties from 1st September 1939 to 22nd June 1941.

[Bloodstar]

The figure might be total Wehrmacht casualties from 1st September 1939 to 22nd June 1941.

I guess, or to fall of Crete, but anyway they didn't lost that many men in North Africa till 22nd June 41.

[Ben Turner]

I guess, or to fall of Crete, but anyway they didn't lost that many men in North Africa till 22nd June 41.

Feldgrau doesn't have figures for WIA for North Africa, but the figure for KIA is 12,808 and for MIA is 90,052. I would assume that the vast bulk of the latter were men captured in Tunisia. Going by the ratio of killed to wounded elsewhere, I would figure the total German casualties for the North African campaign through to the end of 1942 would be around 50,000.

[saper]

Ok
I was correct Attrition Divider, and few small mistakes who I saw during the playtests.

In last few days I recived few interesting materials for scenario. Presently I need only detailed Slovakian Army ODB and unit structure ...

In attachment you will find a corrected version.

Deeper correction will appear during next 3 months

[Ben Turner]

In last few days I recived few interesting materials for scenario. Presently I need only detailed Slovakian Army ODB and unit structure ...

The Slovakian army is a pain in this regard. There's a little on what they had in 1941 available but virtually nothing besides that. Though they're not in my scenario currently (partly because of the dearth of information on both their organisation and the role in the campaign), I do have a little data on them. If you're interested I could post it here.

[saper]

In playtests I found some mistakes in scenario - biger was to high Attrition Divider. Is still some more little mistakes, but I will be correcting it in next editions.

And now answer for few e-mails and posts here.

1. Tank battalions in Russian Cav.Div will be changed for regiments (tx Pavel)

2. German forces will be weaker in effect of list incomplete regiments ... another few changes will be changed (4th art.bn, AA units). Danzig group will be rebuilded.

3. Names of unit will be in national specific (problem could give me Slovakian Army) ... :)

4. Base of map was Barba's scenario map. I made a lot of correction in forests, hills, marshes, airfields, and small others details. For knowlege my poor educated nobels friend from England - in Poland 77% of all forests are conifers, and 87% of all conifers trees are pine. Tell me why I should mark this as a light wood ??? 3 move points this is for you too much for 1 hex advance in wooden terrain ? - panzer units should flying like jets throught forests? Even with 3MP/hex German panzer unit can advance 40 km - dream of every commander.
If you will read somthing more in Guderian book, you will see that his big success was not to big ... XIX Pz Corp crash part of polish 9ID and Pomorska Cav.Bdg and for your knwlege made this in mostly wooden terrain, next made see-side across Eastern Prusia and back to the battle at Wizna when stuck for 3 days. After break defence of alone polish battalion, advance in Brześć direction - success was full becouse polish defence on this area does not exist in this time - 150 km to Brześć gave glory for him. And now tell me about jet-tanks ...

5. Redeploing unit for the west - yes I will do this, but I have to think deeper about this problem ...

6. I know that scenario is unperfect - every of creators try to do this, and effect are very far of idea ... Is hart to give realism of 1939 when you have only TOAW possibilities - I still trying to do this well ... First problem of scenario is map - map for this ODB should be in scale 1 hex = 5 km, and I will create map in this scale during next 12 months ... After this I will make scenario "What if..." without Russian Attack - that will be field for new Guderians ... :)

7. For Barba - Yes i was rebuilded map from yours scenario, and I was tryed to use ODB ... And belive me I was trying - still is some units from old ODB (thats why you can find HAT rifle in ver 1.0) ... but ... more than 15 units only in Polish ODB was doubled, and 2 was marked three times !!! You was not marked almost all 55ID, and Fortres Group, about independent battalion I even not will be writing ... For comparing is enought open your scenario and my.

8. Marking independent battalions as team on icons. I was caught this idea from Ben scenario - efect is that not will be rebuilded any units lower than battalion (expept few independent tank comppany)

9. For Bloodstar - I saw your post and what can I say.
Possibilities of defence on big ribers banks was temptated, but try to see main cities location, and industry location - maby that will be enought for answer to you. About skills of military consultants from west i don't want even to talk.
Germans bits coalition of 5 countries with stronger air forces, and tank supremacy in 4 or 6 days longer campany than in Poland.
For your knowlege I give you link with loses of allied in 1940. 1,9 mln warprisners - this quantity could be shock.

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/westoffensive/

NOT FOR ANYONE except Bloodstar

Jeśli ja rozumiem Hrvacki język ty powinieneś zrozumieć polski.
Jesteś pierwszym Horvatem, którego znam. Poczytałem trochę wasze forum dyskusyjne i ... co mogę powiedzieć ... chyba nie będę głosował nad wejściem twojego państwa do UE. Mam nadzieję, że to jakieś skrajnie nacjonalistyczne forum, bo po przeczytaniu tego jestem bardzo zniesmaczony.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=72855&messageid=1055613162&lp=1118777868

http://www.network54.com/Forum/72855

�adne masz zdjęcie przy nicku.

10. For Morgoth Bauglir - I will contact you by e-mail.

11.For pavel - OK I will be ignoring Ben's quarrel

12. For Laszlo - hmmm that could be thrue, but I think everybody have to fulfil one condition - he accept argument if that will be his argument ...

13. Tx for e-mails from everywhere. I thinking abaut all exeptation what you marked. For every e-mail I will answer in free time.

bye

Saper

p.s I will back after 2 weeks.

[Ben Turner]

For knowlege my poor educated nobels friend from England - in Poland 77% of all forests are conifers, and 87% of all conifers trees are pine. Tell me why I should mark this as a light wood ???

Because Poland is mostly open plains and good tank country.

Even with 3MP/hex German panzer unit can advance 40 km - dream of every commander.

This is assuming no hex conversion costs and no zones of control.

If you will read somthing more in Guderian book, you will see that his big success was not to big ... XIX Pz Corp crash part of polish 9ID and Pomorska Cav.Bdg and for your knwlege made this in mostly wooden terrain,

Not really. The Poles took refuge in the wooded area of Tuchel Heath whilst XIX Korps passed through the open ground to the south.

back to the battle at Wizna when stuck for 3 days.

Actually XIX Panzer Korps had not arrived during this time. The force which was stuck for three days was the Lotzen Brigade.

5. Redeploing unit for the west - yes I will do this, but I have to think deeper about this problem ...

As I understand it, the Germans did actually begin to move units westwards during the campaign. Certainly it was a concern. The vast bulk of Germany's fighting power was focussed on Poland.

First problem of scenario is map - map for this ODB should be in scale 1 hex = 5 km,

Whilst there are obvious benefits to changing to 5km/hex, there are some less obvious pitfalls- primarily that it becomes all too easy to lose perspective with such a huge scenario.

8. Marking independent battalions as team on icons. I was caught this idea from Ben scenario - efect is that not will be rebuilded any units lower than battalion (expept few independent tank comppany)

The main point of this decision in my scenario was to prevent broken down battalions clogging up the map. Unit density is bad enough as it is.

Possibilities of defence on big ribers banks was temptated, but try to see main cities location, and industry location - maby that will be enought for answer to you.

The Poles were caught between a rock and a hard place here. On the one hand, it should have been obvious to them that if the Germans attacked Poznan and likely Katowice would be quickly lost making the industry in those areas irrelevant (hence the attempts of the Polish government in the 1930s to establish some heavy industry in central Poland). On the other hand, if the Poles formed a short line hinging on Lodz and then running up to the positions on the East Prussian border, the Germans could have marched into West Prussia and the Polish corridor unopposed- exactly the areas which they were demanding. It would be humiliating for Poland to go to war over these areas and then not even fight to defend them.

The challenge for the designer is to reflect this choice.

About skills of military consultants from west i don't want even to talk.

Mm. The defeat of 1940 obscures the fact that the French high command did at least know what it was doing when it came to picking static defensive positions.

NOT FOR ANYONE except Bloodstar

Could you explain this? It's not really polite to exclude people from the conversation like this (a bit of a shame as the bulk of your post seemed pretty constructive)- though it is at least clear from your text ("Hrvacki" and "UE") that you're talking about Croatia here.

[Bloodstar]

9. For Bloodstar - I saw your post and what can I say.
Possibilities of defence on big ribers banks was temptated, but try to see main cities location, and industry location - maby that will be enought for answer to you. About skills of military consultants from west i don't want even to talk.
Germans bits coalition of 5 countries with stronger air forces, and tank supremacy in 4 or 6 days longer campany than in Poland.
For your knowlege I give you link with loses of allied in 1940. 1,9 mln warprisners - this quantity could be shock.

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/westoffensive/

NOT FOR ANYONE except Bloodstar

Jeśli ja rozumiem Hrvacki język ty powinieneś zrozumieć polski.
Jesteś pierwszym Horvatem, którego znam. Poczytałem trochę wasze forum dyskusyjne i ... co mogę powiedzieć ... chyba nie będę głosował nad wejściem twojego państwa do UE. Mam nadzieję, że to jakieś skrajnie nacjonalistyczne forum, bo po przeczytaniu tego jestem bardzo zniesmaczony.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=72855&messageid=1055613162&lp=1118777868

http://www.network54.com/Forum/72855

�adne masz zdjęcie przy nicku.

No, I dont understand Polish so please translate to English.

If you think that all Croatian or Serbian are nationalist then you are very wrong. Alot of them are but not all. Mind you, I am expert on these question and those nationalists are just having a time delay in their brains so if in 50 years there are still that many nationalists then it will be a matter of screwed people for eternity case.

About nationalists - they are fools every one of them and I will prefer that we don't speak in these terms on Warfare HQ forum and to keep this forum clean of nationalist ********. I am not nationalist and am very proud not to be the one.
I didn't wanted to offend you or something, I just have my opinion about simulating Polish campaign in TOAW - but I don't want to discuss it anymore.


Mario

[saper]

I think you understud a bit from my post ... and translation is not required ...

If I can understud Hrvacki, you can understud Polski :)

Dear Mario, I never told that you are nationalist, and never thought that every horvatian is nationalist ... but, maby wrongly I clasified you to, well known from profascist sympathy, Ben's team ... Your proposition was not espetialy accurate, history of your country is ... you know more than I about it and Marcel Iures's picture in fascist uniform under your nick give me conformation that you are plaing in Ben's club ...

If I hurt you take my apology.
:OHNO:

[Bloodstar]

I think you understud a bit from my post ... and translation is not required ...

If I can understud Hrvacki, you can understud Polski :)

Dear Mario, I never told that you are nationalist, and never thought that every horvatian is nationalist ... but, maby wrongly I clasified you to, well known from profascist sympathy, Ben's team ... Your proposition was not espetialy accurate, history of your country is ... you know more than I about it and Marcel Iures's picture in fascist uniform under your nick give me conformation that you are plaing in Ben's club ...

If I hurt you take my apology.
:OHNO:


Dear Saper,



I am talking to you completely frendly and honest. First, I don't understand Polish, if you understand Serbo-Croatish OK, but I am telling you I don't understan Polish except maybe few obvious words.



Now, let me tell you something. I am not pro-fascist, or pro-nazi.

My whole family and I mean whole was in partisans in WW2. Dad from my dad died fighting the

Nazis, ustashis, chetniks etc... in 1943. His mother died when he delivered my father, she was also then for Tito etc... One cousin was also partisan killed near Zagreb, in area of Zagorje fighting Ustashis, or ustase.

One cousin from Zadar (he passed away few years ago) showed me pistol that he took from dead Chetnik Voyvoda (leader) In the battle of Neretva. He was Dalmatian partisan (Croat, and Serb propaganda likes to portray all Croats like ustases which is not true, but some stupid Croatians also lie to do this for their own reasons and the are no better than chetnicks in that regard, see chetnicks = ustase, same ****), and chetniks got a nice beating there (some say that there was 15000 chetniks fighting for Germans mostly peasants from Montenegro).

So you don't know much about history of my country or Balkans in general to make stupid asumption. We all know what is Independent State of Croatia and what ustase were.

They were like chetniks, traitors, quislings, servants of the German occupying forces there. But all must be looked in historical sense and there was NOT ONLY chetnicks and ustase there!!! So your apology is appropriate!



Another thing, my picture, I don't even know who this guy was. I took it because I like to play with Germans in TOAW but that doesn't mean that I am nazi or something you said. That is my friend just plain STUPID. There is a difference about playing with some forces in games and political and other preferences, if you think that it is the same then you must learn something. And also history is researching and not just taking this or that side.



I don't belong to Ben or any other club. This is also stupid.



Another thing I RESPECT, that as one of band Azra (from ex-Yugo) say Poland never gave a quisling! I respect that, and I respect Polish fight and history, fight against communism, nazism, opression, Gdansk etc... You should listen to song, „Poljska u mome srcu“ from Branimir Stulic, Azra, so you should know that there were people who spupported your fight.

This song was written in 1980. when all those things happened in Gdansk.



Another thing, I didn't liked sound of your first post, your arguing with Ben is of no interest to me.



About your scenario, I was maybe a little bit rude and I apology because of this, but I still thinks that Poland in 1939. cannot be simulated in TOAW well. That's my opinion but I don't want to talk about this anymore. I am not interested in your scenario, I think that I can choose what scenarios interests me (FITE, The Great War and many others).



Now, if you want to continue conversation, please translate those Polish words so we can start from there.



And what is that I must take a guilty or shame because of some bad things from history of Croatia or some other ex-Yugo state? I have a pity on them and also that's all in some case part of nationalistic revival, I am not part of that. You know, there was a civil war here and in such situations many fools can choose easiest was and they become nationalist from communists in most cases. And I despise both of them and I am glad that I don't have to argue with them here (thank God!), I had enough of this on Croatian Usenet and if I was a Serb i would be dead by now how democratic some Croatian can be. I think that they spared me because I am Croat but I have said to them everything but I know that if I was a Serb that I would be better to keep my mouth shut.



About Germans in WW2, so what, I respect them and their fight, is this makes me a nazi maybe? Hello, Saper, you must start to respect other people's opinion and democratic principles, Poland is out of communismus... BTW, as you know Ex-Yugoslavia was in many respect better under Tito than any other Eastern Europe that was raped by Soviets since the end of the World War 2. Yes, Tito was also not perfect but he made some good things as well, and he was in many respect OK leader. So please don't mention gang of bastard from ustase or chetnic camps in connection with me – they are not my camp, my Polish friend. You know WW2 is long time finished but if I would have to choose between partisans, ustase, or chetnicks, I would prefer partisans and yes it is true many Croatians now think that it's fashionable to like ustase, it's just opposite chetnicks and they also don't like partisans because they hate Yugoslavia. But, my friend I didn't tell you that most of Croatian and Serbs are brainwashed in any case.



And how Poland had a chance against Germany in 1939. That's just ridiculous. TOAW doesn't even simulates talents of Guderian for example. Or blitzkrieg breaking of C&C behind enemy lines with smashing of HQ's, communications – esp. not on this scale, some Barbarossa scenarios can simulate a little bit of that. You and Ben can make any SF scenario you would like, so that don't make me into Ben's camp, because I have same opinion about his scenario, complete waste of time, for design and for playing, like yours. And we disn't even started talking about small scale German tactics, which was of course superior of Poland and later UK and France tactics. Is this simulated in your scenario, you know numbers like proficency is not good enough to simulate this, or readiness, defend, attacks etc...

Those kind of scenarios must give tremendeous advanatge to Germans to try to simulate those battles and give respect to the history and I am not interested to play something like this.

And that's just a tip of a iceberg, because in any case Poland should beat Germany in 1939 hehehehe, yes in TOAW is everything possible, David can beat Goliath, and Zulus can annex UK. Ahahahahaha.





Message to Ben, please spare me you too as well, as I am not interested into miles long discussion on Polish scenarios.





Mario

[nemo]

Dear Mario, I never told that you are nationalist, and never thought that every horvatian is nationalist ... but, maby wrongly I clasified you to, well known from profascist sympathy, Ben's team ... Your proposition was not espetialy accurate, history of your country is ... you know more than I about it and Marcel Iures's picture in fascist uniform under your nick give me conformation that you are plaing in Ben's club ...

Saper,

I'm not sure this forum is the right place to vent your personal dislikes about other club members. For the record, I'm not interested a bit in what's between you and Ben so there's no need to lose time explaining it to me.

Just keep the forums clean from personal attacks - PMs and email are great tools for personal communication.

OK, back to lurking...

[Dicke Bertha]

... and Zulus can annex UK...

I am offering my services for playtesting this one! :)

Yeah, nemo is right, boys let this discussion fall asleep or continue privately. Remember our likes are so few, the only sensible way to fight between us is in a fair game of TOAW!

PS Mario, once the last FiTE is out, if you lack opponents call on me!

[Bloodstar]

I am offering my services for playtesting this one! :)

Yeah, nemo is right, boys let this discussion fall asleep or continue privately. Remember our likes are so few, the only sensible way to fight between us is in a fair game of TOAW!

PS Mario, once the last FiTE is out, if you lack opponents call on me!

Wise words as always Dicke Bertha! :)
I agree we should only fight in TOAW.

OK Dicke Bertha, you want to send your son-of-stepess against my saurkraut and wurst eaters in new FiTE? :D

I ordered 3 books from Glantz, then Red Army handbook, German Army Handbook, one book about Hans Rudel one about guy who flew with FW190 in Russia, one about army group south, one about army group north, etc... etc... I like to read books on the subject while I play TOAW :devil:

It will be a tough fight, DB is good player but is not important who wins, it is important to take part :whist:


Mario


EDIT: Yes, I ordered also this book "The Caucasus and the Oil, The German-Soviet War in the Caucasus 1942/43", I think that Daniel mentioned this book.

[Dicke Bertha]

Yes Mario, once the scenario is out, you can have me! ;)

I am really looking forward to this - I am interested in seeing how many Steppensöhne I can waste per week. :) Just let me know when the scenario is available - send me the first turn. Normally one turn a week is no problem. Sometimes I will manage two turns of a monster per week. I am something of an überdude! ;)

Nemo, you're on my list too. I really would like to be hostile to you. ;)

[nemo]

Nemo, you're on my list too. I really would like to be hostile to you. ;)
Be my guest :D

I'll keep an open slot for you with pleasure and a wary eye on the FitE thread...;)

[Bloodstar]

Yes Mario, once the scenario is out, you can have me! ;)

I am really looking forward to this - I am interested in seeing how many Steppensöhne I can waste per week. :) Just let me know when the scenario is available - send me the first turn. Normally one turn a week is no problem. Sometimes I will manage two turns of a monster per week. I am something of an überdude! ;)

Nemo, you're on my list too. I really would like to be hostile to you. ;)


OK, you're on! :cheeky:

In any case playing Soviets is easier than Germans so one turn a week is for me also top speed. That's why I don't play many games, I will play also The Great War 2.0 with Daniel as playtest and one more against some other.
But, TGW is a lot faster to play than FiTE.

All right we will just wait that guys release final version, they need to write doc file, in game doc, and maybe check events. My new PC 64-bit Intel is churning out turns in FitE a lot faster now. Old Athlon XP 1800+ was much slower - I never imagined that TOAW would require such a strong PC's so who is saying that TOAW is old game, some scenarios requires really fast PC's (you can also calculate turns with old PC's but it takes eternity)... :confused:


Mario

[Ben Turner]

And how Poland had a chance against Germany in 1939. That's just ridiculous.

This is true. However one doesn't need an even match to make a balanced scenario in TOAW. It's a matter of knowing where to put the goalposts.

And we disn't even started talking about small scale German tactics, which was of course superior of Poland and later UK and France tactics. Is this simulated in your scenario, you know numbers like proficency is not good enough to simulate this, or readiness, defend, attacks etc...

What I found really helped simulate the way the Germans used their armoured formations was giving recon capabilities to German tanks. Proficiency is I think enough for German infantry.

Message to Ben, please spare me you too as well, as I am not interested into miles long discussion on Polish scenarios.

I've kept this short, and these are general points about simulation- not attacks on Saper's scenario. I think he'd agree with me on the first point, at least.

[Bloodstar]

This is true. However one doesn't need an even match to make a balanced scenario in TOAW. It's a matter of knowing where to put the goalposts.

I guess that you insist that we analize your and Saper scenario. OK I will make a short analasy since I don't have the time for longer. It is not point so much of making or not making Polish scenario, I like to see scenarios of battles or campaigns that were not simulated in other games or TOAW.
Problem with Polish scenario ok Germans attacked with 56 divisions and Polish had I think 21 (of 37 inf.) and 6 cav. brigades (of 11). Maybe those inform. are not ok, nevermind just for illustration.
Now when I load your (you are professional soldier Ben?) or Sapers scenario there is something like 700 and something Agressors units vs. 600 and Something Polish... Hellooooouuuuuuu?

Now load up Fire in the East 4.1 and tell me why Stalin shot Pavlov? Is it because Germans have surrounded 20 and something his division and he even "helped" Germans to bag those divisions. But in Pavlov's defense whole Soviet forces disposition was "inside" Germans jaws from beginning.

Now, ok TOAW is not perfect but designers of FitE at least provided some vague hope and means that some situations can be simulated according to history and yes you will bag as Germans many Soviet divisions in June, July.,..

I don't see that in your scenario, can we make another Bzura battle (170000 Polish soldiers captured)?

Etc... etc... but as I said I don't have a time for big analisy and I didn't played scenario so this is only for looking into it.


What I found really helped simulate the way the Germans used their armoured formations was giving recon capabilities to German tanks. Proficiency is I think enough for German infantry.

We can all say, "well, another scenario on Poland, why not?". OK, I don't mind it but as I said making scenario too balanced is not ok. FiTE is also balanced, Germans kick Soviets asses in the early part of the game and later is reverse but they are not trying to impose trench warfare around Minsk, that's impossible. And that's why is this Holy Grail of TOAW design and that's why Danish Design Group deserves special award.
The only downside of FiTE is sheer size which really put a pressure on German player, size is immense and you actually feel that you are Paulus in German HQ and you expect that they pay you for moving so many units (Norm Koger are you listening, we want 50 $ an hour for such a big job haha, just joking of course).


I've kept this short, and these are general points about simulation- not attacks on Saper's scenario. I think he'd agree with me on the first point, at least.

OK, Ben, that's nice conversation and I hope that Saper can also see things like more open discussion and don't see personal attacks everywhere. That's democracy, isn't it, everyone can make opinion.

I am not for completely historical scenarios but it is in fact easier to balance scenarios that involved large size of armies and barbarossa cames here as good example - Germans did in fact had chance to get Moscow and to beat Soviets. Also, huge losses were on each size so even TOAW stupidities can be rationalized sometimes... etc...

Now Ben I hope that you have understood me. Please load Fire in the East 4.1 and have a look on front line for a few minutes down to Black Sea and tell me the difference between this scenario and your and Sapers scenario (sorry for puting both of you but you both made Polish scenarios and I don't know all about this campaign judging it from TOAW perspective more and historical assumption of German advances).


Mario

[Ben Turner]

Now when I load your (you are professional soldier Ben?) or Sapers scenario there is something like 700 and something Agressors units vs. 600 and Something Polish... Hellooooouuuuuuu?

This is a very simplistic analysis. The Poles had a very large number of small independent units. Just as an example, there were 86 ON (Home Guard) Battalions by my count. This is more than one in six of the 483 Polish units in my scenario.

Now, ok TOAW is not perfect but designers of FitE at least provided some vague hope and means that some situations can be simulated according to history and yes you will bag as Germans many Soviet divisions in June, July.,..

I have played a number of Barbarossa scenarios. A competent Soviet player can always win most of them thanks to hindsight. This battle is much more difficult to simulate than Poland. What Soviet player will repeat Stalin's rabid counterattacks and forward defences of the first weeks? He'll pull back to a nice defensible line, hold it with a fortified division to each hex backed with substantial reserves and watch as the German player smashes his head against it for twenty turns. Hindsight plays a role in Poland, but there are no easy answers.

I'll happily demonstrate this to you in one of the 10km/hex Barbarossa scenarios.

Now Ben I hope that you have understood me. Please load Fire in the East 4.1 and have a look on front line for a few minutes down to Black Sea and tell me the difference between this scenario and your and Sapers scenario

I have looked at Fire in the East before. I don't see what your point is. Perhaps you mean how the Soviets, unprepared for the German attack, are all set to "fortified" status along most of the length of the frontier?

[Bloodstar]

I have played a number of Barbarossa scenarios. A competent Soviet player can always win most of them thanks to hindsight. This battle is much more difficult to simulate than Poland. What Soviet player will repeat Stalin's rabid counterattacks and forward defences of the first weeks? He'll pull back to a nice defensible line, hold it with a fortified division to each hex backed with substantial reserves and watch as the German player smashes his head against it for twenty turns. Hindsight plays a role in Poland, but there are no easy answers.

I'll happily demonstrate this to you in one of the 10km/hex Barbarossa scenarios.


Yes, yes, but I hope that there is some hope for germans in FiTE. I don't have a time to play right now.
BTW, Barbarossa scenarios are fun. I played one game very well as Germans - but against Dicke Bertha hmmm I will lose probably but we will see.



I have looked at Fire in the East before. I don't see what your point is. Perhaps you mean how the Soviets, unprepared for the German attack, are all set to "fortified" status along most of the length of the frontier?

There is no hope anyway for fortified Soviet units near border. I was talking about lot's of encirclements which can give you nice Barbarossa feeling.

About Polish scenario I have say what I had to say - unfortunately don't have the time to try those scenarios maybe I will some time and then will made another comment. For now you and Sapper can continue discussion.


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

Bloodstar, no need to fear the gentle generalship of the meak Dickele Berthchen... ;) He (well she really, or it as in diminutive) is more and more trying to only injure the enemy, not kill them. (Boys don't fire unless you're certain it's a near-kill!) :)

[Bloodstar]

Bloodstar, no need to fear the gentle generalship of the meak Dickele Berthchen... ;) He (well she really, or it as in diminutive) is more and more trying to only injure the enemy, not kill them. (Boys don't fire unless you're certain it's a near-kill!) :)


LOL you Seinfeld from Stockholm :laugh:


Mario

[saper]

... dear Mario ...

Your explanation was unnecessary, but I thank you.

In case of scenario - "because in any case Poland should beat Germany in 1939 hehehehe". Poland had no chances in 1939 in warconfrontation with 3 others country, and I think I showed it very bright in scenario. Big modernisation of scenario will be ready after few months, and many things will be changed.

But I think that Poland could fight separatly with Germany more long (maby even to see western powers offensive) - Russian show, that was possible to stop Germans for price of big loses. But minimum requirment is commpetent HQ. :). I think about case of tactic showed in last Yugoslawian war, and in last months of war by Germans - I mean about closing part of units in urban centers and "hold to last man" - but that idea will be properly showed in scale 1hex to 5 km.
But that was start of war - nobody could peredict what will be German ocupation for Poland - with present knowlege ... you know.


Translation I will send you for your priv.

[saper]

Saper,

I'm not sure this forum is the right place to vent your personal dislikes about other club members. For the record, I'm not interested a bit in what's between you and Ben so there's no need to lose time explaining it to me.

Just keep the forums clean from personal attacks - PMs and email are great tools for personal communication.

OK, back to lurking...

Thanks for comment - but few post above I told that I will be disregard his post and opinions.

[saper]

I am offering my services for playtesting this one! :)

Yeah, nemo is right, boys let this discussion fall asleep or continue privately. Remember our likes are so few, the only sensible way to fight between us is in a fair game of TOAW!

PS Mario, once the last FiTE is out, if you lack opponents call on me!

OK - I just plaing 4 playtests, and I thing not will be problem to play with you - choose a side and give me answer for e-mail. If you choose German side - give me 1'st turn.
I can promise - one turn per week.

[Dicke Bertha]

saper, I am sorry, you misunderstood me. I was referring to the non-existant 'Zulus invade Britain' scenario, as a joke. Sorry for expressing myself clumsily. With my present commitments, and lacking deeper knowledge of the Polish campaign, I'd really not be the playtester you'd want. I wish you good luck though, and regarding the discussion, remember good goods sell themselves!

[saper]

I guess that you insist that we analize your and Saper scenario. OK I will make a short analasy since I don't have the time for longer. It is not point so much of making or not making Polish scenario, I like to see scenarios of battles or campaigns that were not simulated in other games or TOAW.
Problem with Polish scenario ok Germans attacked with 56 divisions and Polish had I think 21 (of 37 inf.) and 6 cav. brigades (of 11). Maybe those inform. are not ok, nevermind just for illustration.
Now when I load your (you are professional soldier Ben?) or Sapers scenario there is something like 700 and something Agressors units vs. 600 and Something Polish... Hellooooouuuuuuu?



Dear mario - my idea was to show all units from independent battalion to up ...
I made this more carrfuly that I can, and nobody done this level of details more carrfuly than me (I hope) - presently I have some information about it that my list is not commplete (I not marked few independent light artillery battalions. I marked to Ad-hock and improvise units whose was crated to defend Bug river line, and units created on Polish rear ... after Russian entry on map will appearing all polish replacment centers as unit (and replacment is redused by 90%) - this is to show how many soldiers was on eastern voivodeships ... this is reason why you see 600 units ... and you have to remember - in 1939 Poland had 35,1 mln citizens ...


Now load up Fire in the East 4.1 and tell me why Stalin shot Pavlov? Is it because Germans have surrounded 20 and something his division and he even "helped" Germans to bag those divisions. But in Pavlov's defense whole Soviet forces disposition was "inside" Germans jaws from beginning.


... and ??? what is conclusion ???


I don't see that in your scenario, can we make another Bzura battle (170000 Polish soldiers captured)?


I think - this is not a problem - retreating of Poznań and Pomorze Army is required for Polish player, and clash is very probable.

[saper]

saper, I am sorry, you misunderstood me. I was referring to the non-existant 'Zulus invade Britain' scenario, as a joke. Sorry for expressing myself clumsily. With my present commitments, and lacking deeper knowledge of the Polish campaign, I'd really not be the playtester you'd want. I wish you good luck though, and regarding the discussion, remember good goods sell themselves!


OK :)
I'm not catching every language "traps" in english.

:)

[saper]

Guys - I am probably blind ...

Can somebody send me FItE 4.1 scenario for my e-mail ???

trawler@op.pl

[Bloodstar]

... dear Mario ...

Your explanation was unnecessary, but I thank you.

In case of scenario - "because in any case Poland should beat Germany in 1939 hehehehe". Poland had no chances in 1939 in warconfrontation with 3 others country, and I think I showed it very bright in scenario. Big modernisation of scenario will be ready after few months, and many things will be changed.

But I think that Poland could fight separatly with Germany more long (maby even to see western powers offensive) - Russian show, that was possible to stop Germans for price of big loses. But minimum requirment is commpetent HQ. :). I think about case of tactic showed in last Yugoslawian war, and in last months of war by Germans - I mean about closing part of units in urban centers and "hold to last man" - but that idea will be properly showed in scale 1hex to 5 km.
But that was start of war - nobody could peredict what will be German ocupation for Poland - with present knowlege ... you know.


Translation I will send you for your priv.


OK. Thank you. I have nothing against this explanation.
You have great knowledge on the subject so I wish you well and progress of your scenario. Maybe I have over-reacted...


Mario

[Bloodstar]

Guys - I am probably blind ...

Can somebody send me FItE 4.1 scenario for my e-mail ???

trawler@op.pl

OK, I will send you now 4.1 to this email.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

... and ??? what is conclusion ???

Well, no conclusion. I have looked at your and Ben's scenario just vaguely so maybe I was wrong. Just TOAW hawk eye in action as well and military historian amateur hehe in me.

What i wanted to say, TOAW is not perfect but in combination with many unit's in good defensive terrain, it can make wonders which will differs very much from history. Yes, we play not to repeat history or part of it but...
That's why I have spoken about FITE and feeling of Barbarossa in this scenario. I didn't played DNO and I am sure that it's also great.
There is many tactical possibilities in FITE. I just compared it to your scenario - I realized that encirclements is not possible. Maybe I am wrong but scale of FITE allows encircelments and Barbarossa had many. But in Poland there was also encircelments and I cannot see how I am gonna make them. All those scenarios would benefit of much bigger scale and different moving factors so that historical sense is there. But, it would need different game too. Well, all generals even on WW2 played many wargames but not on PC, I guess like board games - with big maps etc... TOAW is not perfect.

Forget it... At least it is good that scenarios are made on all battles and campaigns... As I said I am not kind of guy to drag into miles long conversation on Poland, I am not expert on Poland so that's why I terminate this discussion.

That's my final post on this subject!


Mario

[Ben Turner]

There is many tactical possibilities in FITE. I just compared it to your scenario - I realized that encirclements is not possible.

I would think that one would get some encirclements in Saper's scenario. Probably less than in mine since he uses one day turns, which gives the Poles more time to react to German moves, among other reasons.

disclaimer: this is not an attack on Saper's scenario. All the other Poland scenarios also use one day turns.

All those scenarios would benefit of much bigger scale

Saper is, I believe, planning on making a 5km/hex scenario. I'd certainly be interested in playing it.

[saper]

I'm impressed by the level of detail and I only had time for a quick glance at the scenario. I'm looking forward to playing it. I couldn't help noticing though some grammatical errors in the text briefing. Would you like me to correct them?

I'm affraid I won't be of much help with more detailed OOBs, as a matter of fact I was wondering if you could provide me with a detailed OOB of German, Slovakian, Polish and Soviet forces for this time period. Any additional material would be welcome as well. I'm currently trying to create a database with the relevant OOBs throughout history, for research purposes only.

You could really help me out here. It doesn't matter what format the information is presented in (.doc, .pdf, ...).

Should you (or anybody else out there) be interested in an OOB of the British Empire and Commonwealth on 3 September 1939 (down to company level), drop me a line. I can be reached at Northpole@Skynet.be.

What exactly do you mean by "post-Goebbels" sources? ANd what information do you require? Please send me an e-mail to this effect as I'm pretty sure I can find something in my private library on whatever it is you like to know about WWII (except Polish OOBs :) ). For a detailed day-to-day account of how the Germans planned their attack on Poland and lied about it, even to their ally Italy, read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer (or ask me for the appropriate passages).

Nice job. I'll play the scenario asap.

Sorry, my e-mail is not working - my comments i will hang here.


Therry,

sorry that I was waiting so long for answer to you ...


with sources that could be a bit problem, links which show you Ben is the samw what i was using, polish ODB is good on this side, there is only few small mistakes ... rest information in opposite to Ben i was extract from books - this peiod is very good showed in polish books, this issued before 1989 showing how poor was Polish army, that after 89 showing more balansed opinions ...

... this is reason why you can find very detailed information in scenario - like you see every polish tank unit have historical equipment and quantity - quality unattainable for others creators ...


If you are interested I can give you list of thise books - but this is polish books in polish language ...

I know that in the west almost every sources about this period are based on german sources (post-goebels), and are very aberrited and lying - enough is reading german calendars of conquest - few of polish ID was destroyed 3 even 4 times - in Przemyśl they show 6 polish ID in defence (sic) ...



I had big problem with german ODB, and I based on orbat.com webside. I had a big problem with german gsg regiments, but now my friend send me some information bout that, I'm consulting side of Red Army with Pavel - T28, and in version 2.0 will be some correction more ...


Now i need only conformation of organisation german border regiments, and if you have anything about Slovakian army - I will be very hapy ...



If you have any detal question not hesitate ask ...

[Ben Turner]

like you see every polish tank unit have historical equipment and quantity - quality unattainable for others creators ...

What about German tank units? What source did you use for these?

I know that in the west almost every sources about this period are based on german sources (post-goebels), and are very aberrited and lying

All non-Poles are liars, right?

[saper]

But in Poland there was also encircelments and I cannot see how I am gonna make them.

Mario

Strange - I see a lot of possibilities.



All those scenarios would benefit of much bigger scale and different moving factors so that historical sense is there.

Mario

well, moving factor - I don't see necessity of this - German units are faster than polish terrainn was modificated by me - now is big more tankavailable than in base scenario , about historical sense - yes - maby I should give possibility to move of Army Poznań in 2'nd or even in 3th turn, maby reduce transport abbilities - I don't know - but I will be thinking about it - second part is possibility to stop (or lateing) german unit by control zones, and "losting" units (russian way)- first of all a want to show that blitz krieg could be slower when you use good tactic ...

[saper]

... I'm using New Equipment Editor from site of "my little brother" to create specific equipment - base for it is Modern.exe (JMS's) ... I just find, that AA equipment is x100 times better than original in COW !!!

This is effecte of accident or intentional work ???

[T-28A]

Hi,

This is effecte of accident or intentional work ???

The reason is the glitch in TOAW internal calculations, which make ANY AA equipment virtually ineffective, unless multiplied by ~100. ALthough we can't reasonably alter internal calcs, we could change the database, so that DB overhaul by JMS exactly provides such a change, making AA weapons to operate with touchable effectiveness.

Yours,
Pavel

[saper]

Hi,



The reason is the glitch in TOAW internal calculations, which make ANY AA equipment virtually ineffective, unless multiplied by ~100. ALthough we can't reasonably alter internal calcs, we could change the database, so that DB overhaul by JMS exactly provides such a change, making AA weapons to operate with touchable effectiveness.

Yours,
Pavel

But when we will use modern DB for year 1939 situation - will not it be abberation effect?
Maby I sholud making changes again with COW standards? Standards more comparable to 1939 (in the end, it is modern.exe - my is not so new :) )

[T-28A]

Nope. THe different periods' vulnerabilty/killability are already provided within original attack vs defence values of plane&AA equipment. Scaling them by 100 you're just adjusting the systematic linear error provided by wrong calc.

[T-28A]

or, to be more specific, it is how it meant to be. In the case you have already observed statistic representative enough, and disagree with new values, you could provide your own overhaul, of course :)

[saper]

Nope. THe different periods' vulnerabilty/killability are already provided within original attack vs defence values of plane&AA equipment. Scaling them by 100 you're just adjusting the systematic linear error provided by wrong calc.


OK - correction will be done.