Fire in the East-Nordic4.1-German Wanted

[Sparkenstein]

I am looking for a 'skilled and talented' adversary to play the German forces in FitE. I will be recorded on the ladder so the opponent must be registered. E-mail me at cn@telus.net if you are interested.

[Sparkenstein]

Nobody interested in this massive game? If the German plays really well the game may end before the first winter.

[Menschenfresser]

Sparkenstein, keep the pressure on. I would play had I not so many games going already...including a solitaire game of FitE at turn 25.

However, you might want to hold on a bit more. Last I heard, a new version of this is due out soon, which should make the Soviet side more competitive.

[RavenStrike]

If you have no one by June 13th, I will take the challenge. I have some games that should be ending around then and would like to play a new scenario (to me).

[Sparkenstein]

That sounds great. I am on turn 16 in Fire in the East 4.1 as the Germans. The Russian is in serious trouble.I don't know if he will last much longer :)I am at the gates of Leningrad in the north,the gates of Moscow in the center and just coming to Kharkov.With all my forces still in tact in the middle of August the Red Army may be done for.
I will keep an eye out for the new version. Thanks
Starting another game as the Soviets on June 15 would be great by me.Just keep me posted.

[RavenStrike]

Great. Let's touch base near mid-month and see if we play current or new version. I haven't played the scenario, so either would work for me.

[Snefens]

New version is currently being tested, but it won't be out in the next two weeks (or month most likely)

Just FYI.

[Sparkenstein]

Sounds great RavenStrike get a hold of me when you are ready.I think we should try the new version of FitE and see what improvements Stefens has come up with.Talk to you soon.

[Raver]

Ah great - I was just about to pester you again :)

I for one am looking forward to the next iteration.

[Sparkenstein]

Hey Stefens will you let us know when the new version is available or should we be watching the Fire in the East website? I have been to your site recently and have seen nothing about it. If you have some time, could you give us a brief description on what to expect with the new version. I am looking forward to my next game of FitE and I am ready now to begin as the Red Army.

[Snefens]

Sure, I'll put it in this post or create a new one, when the new version is available. As for the changes this is just a paste of a answer made earlier by me. I have still not compiled the read-me file with the full list of changes.


-Changes to initial german railrepair capacity. Increasing damage-percentage and/or fewer rail repair units.
-Axis Minor's forces redone.
-VVS redone completely. Now the different plane types are in their own units. (Now no Il-2's together with La-5FN, just because they have same movement)
-Changes to the TOE of Soviet tank units.
-lots of other minor stuff and bug fixes.


Inclusion of "sea-zones" is also a new thing. Basically it means you won't be able to make amphibious landings several hundred or even thousand kilometers behind the front.

[Kraut]

weeee, a new FitE, good news :)

Well, if you already have a runnig version with the new changes I'd volunteer to playtest it, would prefer to play the soviets as I've already played several games of DNO/FitE as the Axis ;)

So, if anybody wants to play the germans and is up for some fun in the east, and Snefens is willing to provide the scenario, I'd say: bring it on :)

[Sparkenstein]

That sounds good Kraut ,I will play you as the Germans but we will have to wait till the new version is ready.I am going to play as the Russians also with another member so I will see both sides.You can get my e-mail from this thread and let me know when you are ready to go.This scenario should keep me pretty busy for awhile.

[Kraut]

great, now I only hope the dansk get their asses moving and give us the new version soon :p

[Kraut]

Oh, by the way, I wrote a little AAR of my game of FitE, turn 1-8 which I played against Polynike, you might want to read up on it :)

http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8095

[RavenStrike]

Yes Sparkenstein, I'm ready now whenever the new version is ready.

[Sparkenstein]

Sounds great RavenStrike, I am waiting for the new version to arrive,I have been ready for awhile now.Once it is available go ahead with your first turn ,its a huge game and may take you some time to work your way through it.
I am also going to take on Kraut as the Axis , this should be very enjoyable 'double trouble' for the next while.I will be talking to you soon.

[Kraut]

It might interest you that I've recived the test version from the designers, so the new version is almost complete :)

I've made some comments which, should they be implemented, might delay the release for a day or two (so nothing major :halo: ), but otherwise it seems as if the new version will be shipped soon :)

[Kraut]

Come on you guys, its now almost a week since you send me the test version, whats taking you so long? Finish it already :D


:halo:

[Sparkenstein]

Yeah,still waiting. Where are we to get the newest version when its ready,the FitE website or in the scenario archive on this site?
Hey Kraut you saw the test version, is the wait worth it?

[Bloodstar]

Yeah,still waiting. Where are we to get the newest version when its ready,the FitE website or in the scenario archive on this site?
Hey Kraut you saw the test version, is the wait worth it?

Hehe, I also have the test version, the mighty Bloodstar :devil:

Kraut I will send you email soon to ask you about your experience of new FitE, it looking great!!!

There is many small changes and maybe it will be worth to play it again and see (possibly) panzers rolling in Stalin's courtyard! Jawohl! :laugh:

Maybe I can post later changes that I've noticed till now, or Kraut (?), I hope that Snefen & guys would not mind it, if we should not talk they can say.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

This post is just to promote my self :cheeky:


Mario

[Kraut]

Well, there are several changes in 4.3.1, I probably havent catched them all but this is what I saw so far:

The most prominent change are the new sea zones, basicaly lines of shallow water seperate the map now, so to be able to get past these shallow water lines you have to first capture the harbor hex, thereby deep invasions basically became impossible.

The germans recived lots of additional fortified hexes, they'll need them once my T-34/85 start rumbeling into eastern prussia :D

Many soviet border divisions that started fortified in 4.1 are now set to defence only, that should make it easier for the germans to overcome these forward divisions, on the other hand some of the mobile soviet border divisions were set to tac reserve instead of local (that might have been a bug in the test version), so that they wont rush forward to their doom and some might actually manage to escape, helping the soviets to easier form a defence.

The soviet airforce was totally revoked, now again we have huge mixed units, were 9 PE-2 (range 61 hexes) are mixed with 230 other types, most with a range of 33 hexes which will lead to (let me quote the FitE manual here):

2. When a air formation flies a combat mission it uses the longest range of the aircrafts assigned. This means that if 106 I-16 with a range of 17, is in the same formation as 0 (Zero) yak-1 with a range of 23, the I-16 will fly 23 hexes. What happens then, is that because the I-16 exceeds it range its strength is reduced to 1%. This means that for practical reasons, a drunk, armless, blind person in an old zeppelin, with a frozen water pistol, can shot them all down. And he will.

Why thy've changed that back is beyond me, and to say it quite simply, I think thats a step backwards.
It might be that these air wings are supposed to represent the early clumpsy red airforce, are ment to evaporate and never come back ;) I really hope that moste late war air wings are still seperated by range :)

I've noted other TO&E changes aswell, now the soviets have T-34 (early) and T-34 (late) models available. There might have been more changes, but I think the designers know these better :)

Of, several AA batterys finally recived some horse teams, now allowing them to move faster than 1-hex/turn :D

[Bloodstar]

Great Kraut, I will send you later email to ask you something...

Now, what I have noticed beside Kraut's observations - some of this told me Stefan O. Kristensen - Axis have some less unit's (Soviet also around 10 due to change in some VVS points) in initial OOB, German bridging/ferry troops are removed and Rumanians don't start game with divisions from Reserve army - that will come later, mostly in the fall.

OK, at last Rumanian and some other minor German allies have get MORTARS in their TO&E and some other things and quite beefed up! Also I think that there is increase of mortars in German regiments as well and maybe something else. Russian divisions are also beefed up somewhat.

German Corps HQ have no longer those 4-hexes range 170mm guns which were VERY :laugh: useful before. Forget about them now, they said that they come into 1942. historically so they were removed. Ah, we must live with that...

Not only that there is 20000 soviet rifle squad in pool (that is 4000 increase), ah so many Russian peasants sent to death...
Pz38T is in production now and there would be some 400 available to replace losses.
One good thing for Axis, IL-2 comes at 270 planes but have repl. rate at 103... Before was 2520 and repl. rate of 72 so see by yourself what you like better :D

Etc... I didn't study it in detail so there is many more changes I am sure... But, amazing detail as always.


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

...
The soviet airforce was totally revoked, now again we have huge mixed units, were 9 PE-2 (range 61 hexes) are mixed with 230 other types, most with a range of 33 hexes which will lead to (let me quote the FitE manual here):

2. When a air formation flies a combat mission it uses the longest range of the aircrafts assigned. This means that if 106 I-16 with a range of 17, is in the same formation as 0 (Zero) yak-1 with a range of 23, the I-16 will fly 23 hexes. What happens then, is that because the I-16 exceeds it range its strength is reduced to 1%. This means that for practical reasons, a drunk, armless, blind person in an old zeppelin, with a frozen water pistol, can shot them all down. And he will.

Why thy've changed that back is beyond me, and to say it quite simply, I think thats a step backwards.
It might be that these air wings are supposed to represent the early clumpsy red airforce, are ment to evaporate and never come back ;) I really hope that moste late war air wings are still seperated by range :)
...

This is a scenario I'd really like to play, ideally if it was provided with variants as Mensch suggested once, with options to start at various historical start dates... Like March 1943 onwards...

It doesn't sound so good with the air units though...

Well, so the only thing to do then for the Soviets is to not set the bombers on combat support and move them beyond the Urals... and only use them on shortest-range direct ground attacks... And then wait for possible later-war range-separated air units...

[Snefens]

The mixing up of the early air units are done intentional, and was not because we forgot what the effect of difference in range is.
Yes, it will make fodder of the early units, that will respawn again as long as there are any spare primary equipment, mostly I-15, I-16, SB-2, or Su-2.
Their long range aviation units start on the map and is meant to last the game, so they are not in mixed units.
Rest is based mostly on the historic composition, so some of them are a strange mix, often mixing fighters and bombers (with the short ranged fighters I-15 and I-16 suffering most from this)

There are a few slots of more modern types in these early units, but later on, all arriving units are seperated by type. This approach should make the VVS very weak in 1941 and partly '42, but then really become strong when the new fighter types arrive in numbers.

And Kraut, this is the test version. We could quickly make the changes required to make the release version, but just today I found another bug, and we will hold it a big longer to see if we can find more.
Bug was that one of the later arriving VVS-formations was placed on static. One of those bugs, that would be annoying to discover after 80 turns of play, when you find you can't move the units in the formation.

[Dicke Bertha]

Snefens, would it be possible to have subscenarios that start at various historical dates? Not that I want to put you to work but, well, actually I do! ;)

[Menschenfresser]

I stated before on the FitE homepage that supply is too high for the germans. There is one other factor I didn't consider which somewhat reverses this bonus for the Axis player. I hadn't realized how slow German infantry units re-equip after long battles. For instance, the 5 or 6 IDs which still remain around Leningrad and have been involved in the fighting there since it began some 10-12 turns ago are quite weak. Some have as low as 25% of their rifle squads. Most are down around 40-50%. I think one has 17 of 100 HRSs. And that isn't from taking heavy losses...just a few every attack.

My game has seen the Axis move more slowly east than a PBEM game would. I've kept divisions together. I've strictly enforced the rule that no red units can attack or move into enemy territory. And I've given the Germans a few turns rest before assualting the next Soviet line they come to.

I think my criticism isn't that the latter game wouldn't play out nicely, but that Barbarossa in particular (June to Winter) is too easy. I see little hope in the Russians holding the Germans to the historical line. I think I'm going to scuttle my solitaire game once the new version comes out and begin again with disengagement penalties turned off.

Now if only I had the money to buy a faster computer so the bookkeeping wouldn't take so long.

If anyone wants an .sal of either side over the first 27 turns, let me know. Be forewarned that it isn't the cleanest play ever. I some times neglected to dig in in places where I knew no attack would come, but in general I tried to keep it up to standards.

[Kraut]

I think my criticism isn't that the latter game wouldn't play out nicely, but that Barbarossa in particular (June to Winter) is too easy. I see little hope in the Russians holding the Germans to the historical line.

My problem is that I haven't played a game as the soviets yet, so I can only comment from the german perspective, but for me it seemss the soviet problems in 1941 come from a) lack of units and b) shock penalties. It's not necessarily the german 115 shock that concerns me, it's the soviet 80 shock for 6 turns. at shock 80 every formation has a 20% probability of beeing forced into reorganization, which will give the soviets all kinds of problems. When they try to defend somewhere (say stalin line), and the germans breach their line, they want to retreat but half their units are in reorg, than thats pretty bad. It doesnt really help that most soviet formations are huge, thereby lots of units are affected from reorg. So it might help to easen this penalty a bit, 80 for two turns, than shock 90 for two turns, than 95 for 2 turns, than 100.

I hope I get some better insight into this after my first game as the soviets :)

[Bloodstar]

My problem is that I haven't played a game as the soviets yet, so I can only comment from the german perspective, but for me it seemss the soviet problems in 1941 come from a) lack of units and b) shock penalties. It's not necessarily the german 115 shock that concerns me, it's the soviet 80 shock for 6 turns. at shock 80 every formation has a 20% probability of beeing forced into reorganization, which will give the soviets all kinds of problems. When they try to defend somewhere (say stalin line), and the germans breach their line, they want to retreat but half their units are in reorg, than thats pretty bad. It doesnt really help that most soviet formations are huge, thereby lots of units are affected from reorg. So it might help to easen this penalty a bit, 80 for two turns, than shock 90 for two turns, than 95 for 2 turns, than 100.

I hope I get some better insight into this after my first game as the soviets :)


Ah, no, I am not for helping out to the Soviets. :devil:

The Soviets CAN stop the Germans and then turn the table. I am reading Alan Clark and etc... books and I am really puzzled by so many tank formations in Soviet camp. I don't want to start fight with designers, I have already spoken on this subject with them but OK Germans lack tanks in mid- early campaign, ie. maybe starting Winter 1941. but I would really like to know why Alan Clark and others speak about Soviet lack of tanks in spring of 1942. and how they lost precious 250 tanks at Kerch and another 800 (?) during badly led Timoshenko offensive toward Kharkov on the eve of Operation Blau...

In the scenario, if Soviet player hangs on, he will be swarming with armored brigades by spring 1942. Just look at the reinforcements schedule! (to designers, this is only for normal civilized discussion because I need to know others opinion).

Now, history lovers please tell me, Alan Clark is talking about 20 NEW armored brigades that Soviets accumulated by May 1942. and a number of independent tank brigades (? how many). And this is not clear, those 20 brigades are adding to those that were already present I guess. How many were there also in the May of 1942, how many Soviets lost till Moscow offensive, in Mosow offensive and till May 1942.

Is there any site which will show how many Soviets armored brigades show up by date etc... In turn of 73 Soviets get 34 or 36 armored formations! So as Germans you can kiss goodbye Operation Blau in this game, and separating by year this game is in fact ok idea.

BTW, I am not arguing that this game is one of the best TOAW scenarios, as Raver said Holy Grail, but I am just confused by some things...
I am not right now discussing production values for Soviets and I know that it is design thing that it is related with capturing of some Soviets cities.

I just want some discussion, about Soviet and German if you like tank production and creation of new formations... Need much more info. Designers don't get me wrong, I am not suspicious about your research I just have found confusing facts here.



Mario


EDIT: Another thing, I would like to see this small FINISH armored unit that is there in almost all Barbarossa scenarios, for chrome. i know ttaht one finish arm. unit is coming later but this unit was here from beginning and it's not there.

[Kraut]

As I said, I only experienced it from the german view, but lets have a look at the numbers (I'm letting the game run through a few bookkeeping turns, to maybe catch some bugs), and at the beginning of turn 13 the axis have 1222 units and the soviets have 926 units, that is with no soviet unit destroyed so far! In my game vs Polynike I had destroyed roughly 200 soviet divisions by turn 8, not counting evaporated air units and smaller than div. sized units. He might have gotten some back through reconstitution, but the fact remains that the soviets have only very few units on the battlefield (they cant even split their units up) while the Axis have more and can split their units up when needed.
That allowed me as the german to easily (well... kinda ;) )surround isolated soviet units and than destroy them, simply because the soviets lacked the units to build a coherent front and propperly guard his flanks. He often had recon units or flak batteries as frontline units in his line, those did more harm than good because they allowed me to push in his rear by overruning them, without ZOC penalties.

I know that the soviets will swim in units later on, the problem is surviving for that long ;)

In my game vs Polynike, at the end of turn 8, vast stretches of frontline are without any soviet unit, simply because he has non to put up there!

I think that FitE might actually be more playable in that aspect than DNO, in DNO it was relatively easy for the soviets to stop the germans if those werent played to the optimum, simply because the soviets had so many units and such a high replacement rate, he could just throw them all at the germans and slow him to a crawl (that wont work against a really good axis player, so be warned ;) ) In FitE thats a lot harder to do, the soviets are actually forced to retreat to prevent their units from being encirceled, so the game might actually play better than DNO in most cases. On the other hand, I think in FitE a swift german victory might actually be more likely than in DNO, finetuning the balance will be the real challenge :)

[Bloodstar]

I think that FitE might actually be more playable in that aspect than DNO, in DNO it was relatively easy for the soviets to stop the germans if those werent played to the optimum, simply because the soviets had so many units and such a high replacement rate, he could just throw them all at the germans and slow him to a crawl (that wont work against a really good axis player, so be warned ;) ) In FitE thats a lot harder to do, the soviets are actually forced to retreat to prevent their units from being encirceled, so the game might actually play better than DNO in most cases. On the other hand, I think in FitE a swift german victory might actually be more likely than in DNO, finetuning the balance will be the real challenge :)


Yes, Kraut, I understand you because I also played as Germans and know what you talking about :laugh:

But, let's see historic premises here and game in early part SHINES in that respect, really.

Soviets had NO CHANCE to stop the German before they reach Moscow and their advancing momentum due to lot's of reasons. That's a pure fact! Why they made later armored brigades of 60 tanks and not kept the formation of big, clumsy, not easy to move arm. divisions, corps, and mech div etc??? Not just because they later ACTUALLY lacked the tanks but smaller formations of 60 tanks were EASIER to command & control for Soviet generals that were inferior to German generals.

I like in fact that simulation of panic on Soviet side that this game just brilliantly simulating in early part of the game. That's ucertanity that leads to challenge, but let's not forget that there is uncertanity and challenge on German side as well, because not all play as experts this game, and lot's of people have lot's of playing styles, and they can get bad luck sometimes in attack etc...

This is simulation, and I am aware that Germans have lot's more formations but there could be also simulation what if Moscow fall, would Soviets keep on the fight or desintegrate (if also Leningrad falls) ? That's a tough question and in fact in game terms it's then lot easier to beat Soviets but in historic terms it's not completely reserched would Soviets be beaten after that or would they have the chance to recover. Let's not forget that there could be UK help to Murmansk in that case, also UK and later USA planes would be flying in Russia from Russian airfields (quite possibly) and Russia is big and Moscow would be huge blow to them but maybe not deadly, just maybe because we actually can't know this for 100%.

I am quite sincere here in TOAW terms that we must pay respect to HISTORICAL facts and be true to them AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

That means yes, allow Soviets to recover but not to recover at Smolensk they must be beaten by good German player up to Moscow and only if germans player is playing really BADLY they can stop him before.

And past this moment, we must simulate also difficiculties on ALL side, German and Soviet. Allow Gerrmans to have Model beat their winter offensive around Moscow and do not give Soviets what they diodn't have and allow Germans some chance in 1942. based on HISTORY. If Soviet player have in 1942. what Zhukov didn't actually have then it's not good. They were BOTH struggling FOR LIFE here, in 1942. also. Books shows this excellent. Look at collapse of Soviet morale in summer of 1942! Look at how Hoth beaten 800 T-34 and KV's around Voronezh etc. and try to simulate this. Of course both forces must have means for fight but keep it as much historical as possible. Other opinions welcome.


Mario


EDIT: another thing, Soviet tank production, Alan Clark actually suspects that Soviet tank production was below 600-700 tanks per month as some spies were reporting.
And it must be researched what tanks went to new formations and what to old fomations to cover the losses and what went to reconstitution formations and in the game i think that all Soviet armored brigades reconstitute which is also strange.
Leningrad factory that produced KV's produced them ONLY for local theater because factory was actually surrounded as city itself. Ural tank factories at Sverldlovsk and Chelybyansk were only beginning to get in their stride in the spring of 1942. and Clark suggests that Russian tank strength was actually INFERIOR to German tank strength.

[Sparkenstein]

Still waiting... Can Snefens or anyone give us an idea when it will be ready, a few MORE days or weeks?

[Bloodstar]

Still waiting... Can Snefens or anyone give us an idea when it will be ready, a few MORE days or weeks?

Hehe, another in love with a Janie Jones FiTE :laugh:


Mario

[Raver]

Still waiting... Can Snefens or anyone give us an idea when it will be ready, a few MORE days or weeks?

Yes, I'm getting a little desperate myself. But then I've been waiting a year for this game!

[Snefens]

Still waiting... Can Snefens or anyone give us an idea when it will be ready, a few MORE days or weeks?

Well, the three of us have planned on meeting tomorrow (saturday) to make the final corrections. Then it should be out a few days after that when we have double-checked it a last time.
So to answer your question, it is DAYS not weeks.

[Raver]

Well, the three of us have planned on meeting tomorrow (saturday) to make the final corrections. Then it should be out a few days after that when we have double-checked it a last time.
So to answer your question, it is DAYS not weeks.

Cool! Thanks Snefens. I shall book out next weekend accordingly :love:

[Bloodstar]

Well, the three of us have planned on meeting tomorrow (saturday) to make the final corrections. Then it should be out a few days after that when we have double-checked it a last time.
So to answer your question, it is DAYS not weeks.


Great news indeed! Back to USSR :laugh:


Mario

[Menschenfresser]

Going back to the earlier discussion, I think Kraut is right. The game will get interesting once the Soviets reach parity with the Germans in on-map units. Only now on T28, with appearance of a handful of Guards Divisions and tank brigades are the Soviets able to go toe-to-toe with the Germans around Moscow.

I can imagine the Soviet player pulling back everything possible to an initial line just in front of Moscow, running down to Rostov vicinity and actually holding it against the German player. As the Soviets I've built two full lines and each time, after a turn or two, they broke down owing to zero reserves. This isn't true of the Moscow area. Over the last three turns, I've found a player can pour so much into this area with ease, that the German forces are ground down and more or less stopped. But it takes about half the number of units guarding the entire rest of Russia.

I think the 80% shock should go altogether. A positive shock on the German side is enough. And I think, as I've mentioned before, the above circumstances could be somewhat mitigated by turning off the disengagement penalty. However, the main problem throughout 41 is the number of units.

This might not go over well, but I'd like to see some of the chrome stripped out and space given to the central core of the scenario. The fortress units; those battalion sized NKVD units; etc. Instead add in more independent AT, recon, etc. Even more divisions if some were left out of the original OOB. Just an idea.

[Bloodstar]

Going back to the earlier discussion, I think Kraut is right. The game will get interesting once the Soviets reach parity with the Germans in on-map units. Only now on T28, with appearance of a handful of Guards Divisions and tank brigades are the Soviets able to go toe-to-toe with the Germans around Moscow.

I can imagine the Soviet player pulling back everything possible to an initial line just in front of Moscow, running down to Rostov vicinity and actually holding it against the German player. As the Soviets I've built two full lines and each time, after a turn or two, they broke down owing to zero reserves. This isn't true of the Moscow area. Over the last three turns, I've found a player can pour so much into this area with ease, that the German forces are ground down and more or less stopped. But it takes about half the number of units guarding the entire rest of Russia.

I think the 80% shock should go altogether. A positive shock on the German side is enough. And I think, as I've mentioned before, the above circumstances could be somewhat mitigated by turning off the disengagement penalty. However, the main problem throughout 41 is the number of units.

This might not go over well, but I'd like to see some of the chrome stripped out and space given to the central core of the scenario. The fortress units; those battalion sized NKVD units; etc. Instead add in more independent AT, recon, etc. Even more divisions if some were left out of the original OOB. Just an idea.

Mensch, with all due respect but this will destroy the "soul" Fire in The East scenario.
If the designers are crazy enough to listen to you, go ahead. I have made some suggestions that make sense to them and based to history which I read exstensevely. Like Italians should get bloody mortars! And Slovacs too! For godsake, even Greek army had less mortars than Italians :laugh: that I read in one book and Mussolini sent his best division in Russia but certanly not without mortars. I also made some suggestion on Soviet OOB in 1942. which is rather strange but most players doesn't even come close to 1942. but...

Game will not get interesting if they reach parity it will become DULL!

Anyway, are you suggesting like some Soviet generals suggested to please Stalin (see Erickson book "Road to Stalingrad") that 1 Soviet division is worth 2 or 3 German div?
Well, Soviet played wargames based on this info lol :laugh:

And what showed the history, that one German regiment was worth one Soviet division and even more sometimes!

In June or July (see Seaton or Clark) some Soviet divisions were brought up and when first shell fell they just ran away! Then this major had to get them again on the line and they ran away again.

Well, if designers want to ruin the scenario go ahead, in this version Soviet are beefed up in many aspects so it is some increment. We must see how this version play, not all TOAW players are experts, I don't like too much scenarios in which you must make it just perfect to be able to win (I did it last time in Fite, that was art but...).

And thank you for making the SPOILERS !!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
(why on earth you people are speaking on this board about strategy let the other player play their own way!).

One more thing Soviet forces in this version get much more arty, 20000 repl. instead of 16000, better forts in Kiev etc..., some more tanks in that division in Stalingrad for example so numerous other adiition are implemented that are hard to see! and many, many other things)


Mario

[Kraut]

About the on-map units: I think its certainly a problem for the soviets, but together with their reconstituted units they should do OK in at least slowing the germans down and be able to make a stand somewhere (moscow comes to mind). They cant cover the entire front, but as a matter of fact, so can't the germans. As soon as the new version appeares I'll test out the soviets ASAP and give you a report of how well they are able to defend (I love defending, Mensch, remember our game of Götterdämmerung ? :D )

About the chrome: I say, lets keep it, the 1MP fortresses might be useless in the later half of the game when the soviets attack, but in the first half they can always be railed to some important road hub behind the lines to work as a speed bump should the germans break through. And the MP NKVD units make ideal rearguards when you want to disengage a frontline :D

So while I agree that the soviets will have some real trouble surviving 1941... thats exactly what happenbed in history :) The germans were in artillery range of moscow, they had cut off Leningrade, they penetrated beyond Rostov! I think most problems for the soviets come from actually trying to defend in strength too early, when they are not ready for it, resulting in big encircelments and lots of tears :)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I have made some suggestions that make sense to them and based to history which I read exstensevely.

Then again, and unfortunately, the history of the Eastern Front has included a lot of BS.

Just to point out that you cannot blindly trust everything you read about the subject.

[Bloodstar]

Then again, and unfortunately, the history of the Eastern Front has included a lot of BS.

Just to point out that you cannot blindly trust everything you read about the subject.


Ah, my Finish friend, CEO of Nokia... :cool: (sorry little joke!)
No, I don't trust blindly everything, if you have gotten that impression on me then you are very wrong. History is research but research on many sources and also is refining talent to see what is there actually. Like Sherlock Holmes that is history.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

About the on-map units: I think its certainly a problem for the soviets, but together with their reconstituted units they should do OK in at least slowing the germans down and be able to make a stand somewhere (moscow comes to mind). They cant cover the entire front, but as a matter of fact, so can't the germans. As soon as the new version appeares I'll test out the soviets ASAP and give you a report of how well they are able to defend (I love defending, Mensch, remember our game of Götterdämmerung ? :D )

About the chrome: I say, lets keep it, the 1MP fortresses might be useless in the later half of the game when the soviets attack, but in the first half they can always be railed to some important road hub behind the lines to work as a speed bump should the germans break through. And the MP NKVD units make ideal rearguards when you want to disengage a frontline :D

So while I agree that the soviets will have some real trouble surviving 1941... thats exactly what happenbed in history :) The germans were in artillery range of moscow, they had cut off Leningrade, they penetrated beyond Rostov! I think most problems for the soviets come from actually trying to defend in strength too early, when they are not ready for it, resulting in big encircelments and lots of tears :)


Hear, hear, word of wisdom :)

BTW, you all must take into consideration that German units minus Turkish, minus garrisions and some Finish as well is that real number (as Finish take into full consideration only when Leningard is taken). Yes, Soviets also have 45, 47 army which can be activated in turn 21, take Persia and then be sent against Germans which not happened in history and they stayed to safeguard Turkish borders...

Game has not many honor rules but it is fun - I don't have so much against some illogical things as long some sort of balance is there.

Russians could get a lot more units but again stugs are taken out from germans or some at, aa units etc... (look at dno).
Another thing we know TOAW, it's ridiculous that German regiments or some divisions of allies are chasing Russian ants if we put more ant, that's so much more micromanagment, even now there is a lot of units. If you make Russian a lot stronger, scenario is ruined and you can call it Barbarossa - Doom of Germans...and you can sprap all events and oob from 1942-45.


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No, I don't trust blindly everything, if you have gotten that impression on me then you are very wrong. History is research but research on many sources and also is refining talent to see what is there actually. Like Sherlock Holmes that is history.

Good. And yes, historical research is pretty much like detective work. Because of the nature of the war on the Eastern Front, many propaganda views have become canonized truths.

[Bloodstar]

Good. And yes, historical research is pretty much like detective work. Because of the nature of the war on the Eastern Front, many propaganda views have become canonized truths.

Amen to that.


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

To write a comprehensive history about the Balkans in the '90s will be a real challenge. ;)

[Kraut]

Bah, history, as long as we dont forget the basic facts, such as that germany won WW2, all is good for me ;)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Bah, history, as long as we dont forget the basic facts, such as that germany won WW2, all is good for me ;)

Are you implying they didn't win? :surprise:

:cheeky:

[Kraut]

No no, of course not! Here is a short history lesson for all who missed it:

In 1938 all was peacefull until the president of the USA, George C Bush, choked to death on a bretzel send to him by his evil Twin brother, George D Bush, who than took over power and declared war on the world in 1939.
Germany was the first to defend themself by attacking the US colony Pretty-Ordinary-Land-And-Notworthy-Defending (or POLAND in short), this angered the americans a lot and to calm them down again germany atatcked France next (there was a three week party in the USA after the fall of France!)
Than the USA discovered that there is oil in the soviet union and some CIA agents disguised themself as 3 million germans and attacked the soviet union! Naturally the germans were pretty pissed by this, because now they had to fight a war they never wanted too, but as we all know, all was good in the end as the german armies, supported by aliens and the swedish bikini brigades, smashed the soviets and than forced George D Bush to resign and let John F Kenedy become president (later assasinated by George M Bush)

Well, thats at least what they teach us here in school :whist:

[saper]

... I found this scenario - and ... I had it before :) but I never played with this (was to big for me - first contact, I though that my computer "hang up" :) ) ...

... I see a lot of work in preparation of this scenario, and I can understend a lot of shortcuts which are made in this, but ...

... I dont understend why soviet's divisions have unhistorical construction - even if historiacly they was not fully equipmented, should be marked in organisational construction, and diminish part of equipment ...

... another problem is proficiency of units - 60%-70% after that what Russian Army shown in 1941 is big misunderstunding, another problem is prof. of air units - 40% is ... when we compare it with fact that in one of air district (about 1500 aeroplanes) was comanded by guy in major rank (after Stalin's expurgation) ... Red Army was best equiped Army on World in 1941 - satiation of AT weapons, and field artilery was highest in world - 60% giving big handicap for russians (I'm not will be talking about russians problems with communication) ...

... German's ally are traeting very simplify (maby exept finland army) - rumunian army, hungrian army, rumunian air forces, italian air forces - all of this armies are very far of historical truth ... and turkish army :) - they realy had german fighters ??? (in 1941 ???)

... map for me is very far of ideal for me too - but I can withstand it ...


... Don't understend me wrong - I think this is very good sceanrio to play it in big teams - probably the best what I saw - but I'm to radical for unhistorical construction and equipment (I can understend when you can't find sources - but in fast move I can find something about f.e. rumunian army) ...

Saper

[Kraut]

... I dont understend why soviet's divisions have unhistorical construction - even if historiacly they was not fully equipmented, should be marked in organisational construction, and diminish part of equipment ...


The main problem for the scenario designers was the 2000 unit limit of TOAW, if you think about Drang nach Osten, that scenario tries to simulate nothing more than the first 6 month of Barbarossa, yet even here the 2000 unit slots were already used up. So, to stretch the scenario to 1945 compromises had to be made, such as that most divisions have to represent an 'average soviet division', as the same unit will be present at the very beginning of the scenario up to the fall of Berlin. So you cant make them too weak or the soviets would be handicapped in 43-45. Than there is also a generalizing of equipment (no german PzIV F2, they directly get the similar PzIV H) because of the other limit: only xx different equipment slots per unit.

[Bloodstar]

To write a comprehensive history about the Balkans in the '90s will be a real challenge. ;)

No, it can be put in two words, lousy fu**er mind even smallest hair lol - or fools playground for possible future wars.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

... Don't understend me wrong - I think this is very good sceanrio to play it in big teams - probably the best what I saw - but I'm to radical for unhistorical construction and equipment (I can understend when you can't find sources - but in fast move I can find something about f.e. rumunian army) ..

Why in big teams, there are us Clausewitz' that can play alone one side :devious:.

Yes, there is many compromises that were made in FiTE but many had to be made, but game is really fun to play with such a endless varitety in strategy, you can use deception, dislocation, and all sorts of war tricks as well. You got a feeling that you are in command of whole Eastern Front and that is no small task by all means. Germans never had one supreme commander that Manstein proposes to Hitler, they always had many influences and Hitler was biggest and now you are Supreme Commander of whole front!

(there are other scenarios like this but this is one of the greatest - beside DNO which is also great etc... and what is alternative, waiting for Gary Grisby to make his East Front game which can be worse than this lol :devil: in the end)
(I didn't liked War in the Pacific, because this part of history is of less interest to me, maybe if it was some other I would play it).

This is scenario that is worth the price of the full priced game. Any game, even Battlefield 2 :laugh:


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No no, of course not! Here is a short history lesson for all who missed it:

In 1938 all was peacefull until the president of the USA, George C Bush, choked to death on a bretzel send to him by his evil Twin brother, George D Bush, who than took over power and declared war on the world in 1939.
Germany was the first to defend themself by attacking the US colony Pretty-Ordinary-Land-And-Notworthy-Defending (or POLAND in short), this angered the americans a lot and to calm them down again germany atatcked France next (there was a three week party in the USA after the fall of France!)
Than the USA discovered that there is oil in the soviet union and some CIA agents disguised themself as 3 million germans and attacked the soviet union! Naturally the germans were pretty pissed by this, because now they had to fight a war they never wanted too, but as we all know, all was good in the end as the german armies, supported by aliens and the swedish bikini brigades, smashed the soviets and than forced George D Bush to resign and let John F Kenedy become president (later assasinated by George M Bush)

Well, thats at least what they teach us here in school :whist:


Some mind blowing stuff there! :surprise:

[Bloodstar]

Some mind blowing stuff there! :surprise:


Sheik are you also active maybe on Close Combat forums? :devious:

If yes, how is Red Phoenix progressing? :)


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Sheik are you also active maybe on Close Combat forums? :devious:

If yes, how is Red Phoenix progressing? :)


Mario

What has my namesake been doing again?

(in other words he/she/it is not the real Sheik) ;)

[Bloodstar]

What has my namesake been doing again?

(in other words he/she/it is not the real Sheik) ;)


Hehe, I see. It have been some time that I was at I think SZO forums on Close Combat (because I like the series, esp. third, not so accurate but fun games...) and there was also Keith Zab(whatever) and there were many fun posts and there was guy with same nick and same picture like yours (this Arab guy hehe - my friends laugh when they see some avatars here) - so I don't remember what he said but I just remember that he was there so I was thinking that it was you. Eh... ;)


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Hehe, I see. It have been some time that I was at I think SZO forums on Close Combat (because I like the series, esp. third, not so accurate but fun games...) and there was also Keith Zab(whatever) and there were many fun posts and there was guy with same nick and same picture like yours (this Arab guy hehe - my friends laugh when they see some avatars here) - so I don't remember what he said but I just remember that he was there so I was thinking that it was you. Eh... ;)

No problem. Many people think about me constantly. :lier:

[Kraut]

No problem. Many people think about me constantly. :lier:

Yepp, and than we wake up, screaming and terribly frightened for unknown reasons. :hog:

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Yepp, and than we wake up, screaming and terribly frightened for unknown reasons. :hog:

I know the reasons. :devil: :alien:

[saper]

The main problem for the scenario designers was the 2000 unit limit of TOAW, if you think about Drang nach Osten, that scenario tries to simulate nothing more than the first 6 month of Barbarossa, yet even here the 2000 unit slots were already used up. So, to stretch the scenario to 1945 compromises had to be made, such as that most divisions have to represent an 'average soviet division', as the same unit will be present at the very beginning of the scenario up to the fall of Berlin. So you cant make them too weak or the soviets would be handicapped in 43-45. Than there is also a generalizing of equipment (no german PzIV F2, they directly get the similar PzIV H) because of the other limit: only xx different equipment slots per unit.

OK - I'm understud - but the same reason is for show unhistorical equipment of german's ally ???

[Bloodstar]

OK - I'm understud - but the same reason is for show unhistorical equipment of german's ally ???

This is not the last version of the scenario. The last one is 4.3.1 which is in playtest and will be soon released.

In this last version Rumanian get's a better presentation, they are quite fat now, but reserve division will arrive later.

In any case minors are not so important - they will eventually make it right - Italians and Slovacs got mortars on my suggestion and Duce is pleased, tremble Dicke Bertha! :devious: We will find you in your Kremlin maze, you can't hide.

Scenario is OK as historical as it get's if you have any suggestion why you don't post it here - about German allies equipment and authors will read it.

For example they have thinked of many things, Germany sold to Rumania 200 HS129 at the end of 1943. I think and they have there one Rumanian air wing with HS 129!
And when I asked where is Geshwader wih 68 H129 that fought on Kursk (see Paul Carrell hehe) they told me that everything is there but only planes that where end planes get's it there in the game and it make sense for me. Lack of events, I think that they used 499 events. :laugh:
Germans have see that HS129 where easy to shoot so they replaced it with Focke Wulf planes at the end of 1943. or so.
Yes you have Ju-87 through the war which have lousier stats than HS 129 but that's it.

Scenario is superb, and maybe till 5.0 version will be a lot better but it's close to perfection.


Mario

[Sheik Yerbouti]

At the end of the day, there will always be TO@E-muppets shouting "this ain't right!". :blab:

[Menschenfresser]

My comments about chrome weren't meant to say all chrome is suspect and should be taken out. I only meant to play devil's advocate, since as has been recently mentioned in this thread, concessions had to be made. My point was, "have the right concessions been made?" without really pointing to any in particular with a sharpened finger. :)

I agree, the designers seem eager to continue updating the scenario and with time, it will be very playable. The gist of their alterations to me seem geared toward playability, and that is a good thing.

Overall my impression of this scenario changes almost every time I continue with my solitaire game. Today, for instance, the German's T29 ended after one round, and I'm inclined to think that with the onset of winter and more reinforcements, the Soviets will stop them.

[Bloodstar]

At the end of the day, there will always be TO@E-muppets shouting "this ain't right!". :blab:


LOL, you should see forum of War in the Pacific and how they can get heated debate on Japanese AA guns that not working good or on USA infantry 155mm guns that have sinked half invasion forces - and then 100 replies about guns pro et contra :laugh:


Mario

[Bloodstar]

My comments about chrome weren't meant to say all chrome is suspect and should be taken out. I only meant to play devil's advocate, since as has been recently mentioned in this thread, concessions had to be made. My point was, "have the right concessions been made?" without really pointing to any in particular with a sharpened finger. :)

I agree, the designers seem eager to continue updating the scenario and with time, it will be very playable. The gist of their alterations to me seem geared toward playability, and that is a good thing.

Overall my impression of this scenario changes almost every time I continue with my solitaire game. Today, for instance, the German's T29 ended after one round, and I'm inclined to think that with the onset of winter and more reinforcements, the Soviets will stop them.


As things are going I think that you, Kraut and DB will be pleased with end results, Germans will anyway have a harder fight but I can't wait to start some Panzer engines :cheeky:


Mario

[Bloodstar]

Information for those who wait to play new version: I was looking into my crystal ball to see when scenario will be released and... :laugh:
well, you can go to vacation and when you return it it will be here - it will take a month, chief designer Soren is going to Brasil for 22 days (Danish people love to travel, I met some of them in Seattle).

Good news for Soviet communists swines, 80% shock is out, well and one bad news, all Soviet units are on internal support :p Well, at least this, German shock stays if they took Typhoon and after Typhoon they will get shock.
Hehe, you will have to be careful how you deploy your armies for any attack :devil:

Month is needed so that they check everything twice again.

BTW, to correct one of my earlier posts, Germans will get some less tanks (less PIIIh, more Pz38T) in the end (we will see end result for exaxt number), so there is many changes, Rumanians better but without 4 cav, 4 inf, 1 mount. div. (from reserve that was in 4.1) and so on.

QA of Electronic Arts told em that one more month is needed so patience... :whist:


Mario

[Kraut]

In that case, Sparkenstein, lets just start a game with the current version ? I don't want to wait anoter month to defend mother russia ;)

[Snefens]

Yep, sorry about getting peoples hopes up. I think I will never answer any "when" questions again.:( There always seem to pop new issues up, when you think everything is on a roll.

[Menschenfresser]

For my part, take your time. I've decided to keep going with the present version. Just can't go through Poland again...poor Poles.

[Sparkenstein]

Ok Kraut I will start as the Axis version 4.1 Nordic. I will need your e-mail. Good luck to you, I hope you can make it into 42'. The codeword has arrived 'DORTMUND...DORTMUND...DORTMUND'

[RavenStrike]

Sparkenstein, I prefer to wait for the new version for our match, if that is ok with you.

[saper]

Is any live team game in FitE ???

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Is any live team game in FitE ???

It depends on what you mean by that question.

[saper]

It depends on what you mean by that question.

In present time, anybody is "on" the game ??? (thats special translation for you) :)

If any team need Army Commander - I can join team.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I doubt anybody would want more special translations. :p

[Kraut]

I dont think there is any team play planed for this scenario, as there is for DNO, and for practical reasons I dont think this scenario is the best suited one for such a task. One reason: 405 turns, you are almost guraranteed to have some dropouts during that time, and also, a turn is not quite as complex as DNO (but close, I admit ;) ) so its probably best to be soloed the old fashioned way :D

[saper]

I dont think there is any team play planed for this scenario, as there is for DNO, and for practical reasons I dont think this scenario is the best suited one for such a task. One reason: 405 turns, you are almost guraranteed to have some dropouts during that time, and also, a turn is not quite as complex as DNO (but close, I admit ;) ) so its probably best to be soloed the old fashioned way :D

Pity - I had a dream - 2 teams - in everyone 1 Cheif of HQ (giving tasks and directions of attack/defend, giving support of Air units and attaching new divisions to for armies) and few army/front commanders to realization of orders.

But to complete whole team you need about 20 people ...

... but dream ... :)

[Kraut]

Pity - I had a dream - 2 teams - in everyone 1 Cheif of HQ (giving tasks and directions of attack/defend, giving support of Air units and attaching new divisions to for armies) and few army/front commanders to realization of orders.

But to complete whole team you need about 20 people ...

... but dream ... :)

Wont work that way anyway, the only way to do it is as it's done in the DNO team game: The Army/Front commanders give the orders and the Supreme Commander has to do the work, moving units/planing attacks ets, because otherwise it wold require far to much sending the game file from person a to b to plan the attack, move units atc. Also, if commander A plans a heavy attack in turn 1, eating lots of combat rounds, while commander b was manneuvering his units into position first, planing on attacking at about 60-70% left, only to find out that player a has eaten up 80% alread... would result in some friendly exchange of animal names :D

[saper]

Wont work that way anyway, the only way to do it is as it's done in the DNO team game: The Army/Front commanders give the orders and the Supreme Commander has to do the work, moving units/planing attacks ets, because otherwise it wold require far to much sending the game file from person a to b to plan the attack, move units atc. Also, if commander A plans a heavy attack in turn 1, eating lots of combat rounds, while commander b was manneuvering his units into position first, planing on attacking at about 60-70% left, only to find out that player a has eaten up 80% alread... would result in some friendly exchange of animal names :D

LOL - now you see that scenario is tobig !!! :)

[Dicke Bertha]

HA, I also think the sheer number of turns would kill this project quickly!

Just a thought, for a combined fun of multiplaying; would it be possible to have this huge scenario playable for anyone interested, say as a community project just for fun (I am sure something like this has been discussed before):

As in the Wintergewitter tournament, let's say we have two threads. One open/accessible for registered German players, one for Soviet. Anyone can sign on at anytime, but only to one side.

Someone starts with the German turn one, saves the pbl file and mails it to the über-game-master (neutral) who posts it in the Soviet thread. Now any registered Soviet player (first come first serve) posts he is taking the file, and returns it to the game-master within a set time-frame. The game-master posts it in the German thread, and first come, first serve... Obviously the passswords should be set by the game master for both sides and posted in #1 post of both threads. The game master should of course need administrative rights on the forum...

As I said just a thought, but it could be pretty fun to see how the TOAW section collectively handles the Eastern front! With all the people involved, with all kind of skills and playstyles, it could be a good test on playability and balance, apart from fun...

Edit: the game-master would of course need to write an AAR with a little lag to keep interest up!

[Kraut]

I'm pretty sceptical about such a project, apart from the different skill levels of the TOAW players (and especially in the opening phase of FitE it's almost required to play each Axis turn to its optimum, to keep the soviets disorganized and to overcome defencive positions quickly, a single bad turn can have dramatic consequences) every player probably has different ideas about the strategy, one wants to focus everything on an attack on mocow, another wants to advance on a broad front etc. The strategy could probably be agreed upon... but that would than limit the players again, they wouldn't be able to do the turn as they think is best, but as the collective agreed to do it, and that would contradict the original idea of Dicke Bertha.

Hmm, but in case we get this one rolling, I'd join the communist forces and smash the tiny Pz I's with my mighty KV-I :D

[Dicke Bertha]

Kraut, if Barbarossa is the most critical part, why not start this as a multiplayer in January 1942? Someone who have made a pretty historical game so far could perhaps provide the starting turn... (I keep nagging about this monster having variable starting dates!) ;)

Anyway, how would you explain the loss of your KV's? :D

[Sparkenstein]

That is fine with me RavenStrike,we can wait for the new version to arrive.Just e-mail me if you get it first.
On the subject of a multi-player FitE,I think there is a definite possibility.The 'tournament?'would take quite a long time to play out though.My idea would consist of teams of 3 players per side[Army Groups A,B and C :Soviet] and [Army Groups North,Center and South :German].Each team could be picked by the players themselves or by the moderator{I prefer the players to pick so as to be happy with their team for the long playing time}.
I think each sides turn would have to be played in 3 sections and wait till the final[3rd] player has moved before you could resolve combat.Then there would probably be a much shorter 2nd round of combat as the game usually says "20% movement left",after each Army Group Commander was satisfied, a second combat result would occur and turn over.Could the combat results be sent to the side who just finished their turn by the Tournament Master? If so, the turns would take some time to complete but it could be done.
The teams could plot strategy and discuss plans while waiting for their turn to arrive.Also the Tournament Master could place a reasonable time limit for teams to submit their turns.I think lots of 'ladder points'should be awarded to those brave enough to try this HUGE TOURNAMENT.
Having the 3 seperate 'player moves' before combat execution may solve Krauts concerns about using up points,and if the final section is saved just before combat resolution {this could be e-mailed to each team member to see the results for the whole front. I think it could work

[saper]

My idea would consist of teams of 3 players per side[Army Groups A,B and C :Soviet] and [Army Groups North,Center and South :German].Each team could be picked by the players themselves or by the moderator{I prefer the players to pick so as to be happy with their team for the long playing time}.
I think each sides turn would have to be played in 3 sections and wait till the final[3rd] player has moved before you could resolve combat.Then there would probably be a much shorter 2nd round of combat as the game usually says "20% movement left",after each Army Group Commander was satisfied, a second combat result would occur and turn over.Could the combat results be sent to the side who just finished their turn by the Tournament Master? If so, the turns would take some time to complete but it could be done.


One expectation:
3 players + 1 Cheif of HQ (will be giving orders for subcommanders - directions of attack, attaching new units to subcommanders, and will be commander of Air Forces)

p.s: this scenario is to huge - it's will be maiking a lot of problems in cooperation and give to long time to answer - better idea is smaller scenario (f.e only one army group) ...

[Foggy]

Gentlemen - those sound like great ideas - I would personally be interested in another multiplayer game :laugh:
But - talk to Mensch about the multiplayer DNO game - I'm just the opponent - he can give I'm sure lots of advice :halo:

[saper]

You asked about German's ally.

Here you are about Romania:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?section=60

[Sparkenstein]

Still waiting for the new version. Anyone hear anything yet?

[Karri]

One expectation:
3 players + 1 Cheif of HQ (will be giving orders for subcommanders - directions of attack, attaching new units to subcommanders, and will be commander of Air Forces)

p.s: this scenario is to huge - it's will be maiking a lot of problems in cooperation and give to long time to answer - better idea is smaller scenario (f.e only one army group) ...

I have tried this scenario with 2 germans versus 1 russian, we only played for a few turns until I gave up. It was very time consuming. I should also note that "chief of HQ" having command of air force won't probaply work. Much easier would just to assign each player with his own air squadrons.

[RavenStrike]

Sparkenstein.... Looks like the new release is finally here. Are you still up for a game with me as the Axis?

[Sparkenstein]

Yes I am ready and able to start at any time.