U.K. supply fleet could be built in China

[Herman Hum]

Royal Navy's new supply fleet could be built cheap in China
By Clayton Hirst
15 May 2005
Excerpt from The Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=638483)

Britain could have its first fleet of naval ships built in China under plans being drawn up by shipbuilder VT Group.

The company is preparing to bid to supply the Royal Navy with up to 15 support vessels, in a contract thought to be worth £2bn.

But in a bit to reduce costs, VT is exploring the possibility of making the ships' hulls in China. The move would be controversial as the Ministry of Defence (MoD) insists that all warships be assembled in Britain.

However, VT believes that because the ships in the so-called Mars programme will be used to support front-line warships, the "made in Britain" rule will not apply.

Paul Lester, the chief executive of VT, said: "There could be an opportunity to get some of the hulls of those ships built in China or Eastern Europe and then brought over to the UK. The Mars programme brings that potential because they are support ships; they are not typical."

Assembling the hulls abroad would save a lot of money, he said. "There is no doubt that the cost of producing steel and doing some of the fabrication work offshore would be 25 to 30 per cent less than doing it in the UK. But a lot of work needs to be done to establish quality and reliability," he said.

The MoD kicked off the procurement process for the ships last month by asking companies to express an interest in bidding. It is understood that the MoD wants to sign contracts with a shipbuilder by the end of the year. VT is expected to face competition from BAE Systems and Swan Hunter.

The ships built under the Mars programme will replace out-of-date Royal Fleet Auxiliary craft that supply the Navy with oil, ammunition and food.

[Boats]

Outstanding sense...they're going to go overseas to China, to build the part of the ship, that keeps the rest of it from getting wet. Gosh, I wish we'd thought of that first...Doesn't those blithering idiots at MoD understand, that skilled shipyard workers are a dwindling resource?

Boats

[J. Dhatori]

Mother of God... :cry: :blab:

[Mick]

Well I think it is a great idea.....as long as you remember this....things built in China do not last very long....eg. DVD players made here last about....6 to 12 mths.....if you get one from Japan....I think my one at home is about 5 yrs old.....Car are the same and so are the buildings....So if the UK does this....they are going to be buying replacements and parts for a long long time! Its the Hankerchief vs the box of tissues deal!!

[Herman Hum]

Couldn't this be somewhat easily solved by stringent quality control tests? The PRC wouldn't be able to transfer a vessel to the UK if it failed British testing standards. They simply wouldn't be paid.

[Boats]

How many QA people would MoD be willing to put in place to verify things like welds? How would MoD be able to verify the chemical analysis of all the steel being used? Building ships ain't easy, and it's REAL easy to cheat like hell if you know what you're doing, and even easier if the front office is in on it.

Boats

[Mick]

Couldn't this be somewhat easily solved by stringent quality control tests? The PRC wouldn't be able to transfer a vessel to the UK if it failed British testing standards. They simply wouldn't be paid.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand these lot...they will try to hood wink you at every corner...I would rather see them made in Taiwan...you would get a much better product. Dodgy dealings and short cut are a fact of lift and if you put all your faith in them to build an entire ship good luck...parts maybe you would have better luck but not the whole ship. I live here and I see it happen everyday...they have rules and procedures for everything...but they rarely enforce them. They are great friendly people but not trust worthy enough IMO

[Herman Hum]

Sounds like they have a reputation for shadiness and not much of one for quality. I wonder how the UK expects to save money if they are going to constantly wonder where the corners were cut. Even if the quality tests were quadrupled and they all come back positive, there would still be nagging doubt. Gotta wonder why anyone would want to do business with folks who have such a reputation in business.

[Mick]

Sounds like they have a reputation for shadiness and not much of one for quality. I wonder how the UK expects to save money if they are going to constantly wonder where the corners were cut. Even if the quality tests were quadrupled and they all come back positive, there would still be nagging doubt. Gotta wonder why anyone would want to do business with folks who have such a reputation in business.

Cheap labour and no evironmental restraints...no labour disputes or law suits. And with about 12-14RMB to the pound....you can build a dozen for the price of one!

[Boats]

Sounds like they have a reputation for shadiness and not much of one for quality. I wonder how the UK expects to save money if they are going to constantly wonder where the corners were cut. Even if the quality tests were quadrupled and they all come back positive, there would still be nagging doubt. Gotta wonder why anyone would want to do business with folks who have such a reputation in business.


Herman, I have no idea whether or not the quality of the work in general is good or bad. What I'm saying, is that it's rather silly to trust someone who might not be a friend 15 years down the road, to build a national asset...just ain't a smart thing to do.

Boats

[VCDH]

A quick comment about Chinese shipbuilding quality from Combat Fleets:

Regarding the Type 25T FFGs for Thailand....

"Remarks: Ordered 21-9-89. The first unit was handed over 15-12-94 for final fitting out with Western-supplied electronics and weapons in Thailand, completing in 10-95; only the Chinese-made armament and electronic equipment listed above was aboard at time of delivery. Very lightly built, with firing of the 127-mm gun causing structural damage forward."

Regarding the Jianghu-III class for Thailand....

"Hull systems: Said to be flimsily constructed and to have very poor damage-control features. Have a fin stabilization system. May be able to reach only 28 kts."

These are just two instances. I've had dealings with this in the merchant service and can tell you many more. This probably won't happen. Not only would this take jobs away from the UK it would also be against all common sense.

Later
D

[CV32]

I agree. Shoddy workmanship in Chinese shipbuilding is generally well known and accepted. Hence Harpoon 4.1's damage point modifier. (Incidentally, whether the same modifier should be applied to Russian shipbuilding is being debated/discussed on the Harpoon 4.1/PBEM mailing lists). Is it reasonable to expect, however, that this will improve as China becomes more and more industrialised ? What is the general quality of the more recent Chinese naval designs ?