virtual tank battles

[General Herr]

hello again
anyway a while (like... a year?) i played blitzkrieg (every campaign at least 5 times) and noticed that the tank battles, or at least the damage to the tanks, happened very fast. now i play codename: panzers and noticed that the tank battles go REALLY slwoly... and so i was wondering which representation do you guys think is more accurate?

[Patrocles]

hello again
anyway a while (like... a year?) i played blitzkrieg (every campaign at least 5 times) and noticed that the tank battles, or at least the damage to the tanks, happened very fast. now i play codename: panzers and noticed that the tank battles go REALLY slwoly... and so i was wondering which representation do you guys think is more accurate?

So you are comparing blitzkrieg tank battle damage accumulation to panzer tank battle damage accumulation?

[Jim H. Moreno]

I've not played Blitzkrieg, so I cannot speak to gameplay aspects there.

But, I have extensively played Codename: Panzers Phase One, and I have to say, in my opinion, the battles there (tank or otherwise) are impressive only in the respect of eye-candy. In regards to range, hit location, damage effects, and armor, all were modelled to look pretty, but were far from anything 'accurate'. This may the curse of RTS, and why many people do not play them. I'm no programmer; is it that difficult to accurately portray TBS-like aspects in such a game?

[Patrocles]

"In regards to range, hit location, damage effects, and armor, all were modelled to look pretty, but were far from anything 'accurate'. This may the curse of RTS, and why many people do not play them. I'm no programmer; is it that difficult to accurately portray TBS-like aspects in such a game?"

take a look at this thread:
Drop Team RTS game thread (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27150)

[creeping death]

What drives me nuts about these games is that a group of infantry can take out a tank, without Bazookas,molotov cocktails panzerfousts.
The only game that I have played that is accurate is Combat Mission all three versions.

CD

[General Herr]

ok... point well taken. so the combat mission series is the most realistic? what do you guys think of this game? pros and cons? worth buying?


adn then about the original topic, about codename: panzers and blitzkrieg. what i am getting at is that like in blitzkrieg tanks either take a lot of damage/ destroyed or no damage when hit by a shell, whereas in panzers the battles take a while because the shells slowly (over many, many shots :eek: ) wear down health and armor. which one is more historically accurate? i mean between these two which is more realistic? and can you guys offer any pros or cons to these games?

thank you soooo much for any help...

[General Herr]

I've not played Blitzkrieg, so I cannot speak to gameplay aspects there.

But, I have extensively played Codename: Panzers Phase One, and I have to say, in my opinion, the battles there (tank or otherwise) are impressive only in the respect of eye-candy. In regards to range, hit location, damage effects, and armor, all were modelled to look pretty, but were far from anything 'accurate'. This may the curse of RTS, and why many people do not play them. I'm no programmer; is it that difficult to accurately portray TBS-like aspects in such a game?

thanks for ur imput. yea i've noticed the same thing... wait you're reviewing the game :surprise: ? wow what do you think of it? sorry to bring this up, but this is like my pet peeve of that game: the little repair/ rearming animations. i mean they're going for a realistic game (i think... i'm probably wrong) and then they have little bullets, plates, and gears flying from a repair truck...what's up with that? would it have been better if they had done something like blitzkrieg (where two guys got out of the repair/ rearm trucks and went to work on the tank)? sorry, i'm acting a little cocky... i apologize...
oh! i forgot to thank those of you that already helped! thank you very much for helping! thanks to all of you!

[General Herr]

so what do you guys think? which is more accurate between the two? and what do you guys think of the games in general? and then there are the questions in the above two entries (i swear they're in there... somwhere...)

[Overseer]

What drives me nuts about these games is that a group of infantry can take out a tank, without Bazookas,molotov cocktails panzerfousts.
The only game that I have played that is accurate is Combat Mission all three versions.

CD

Well, I can't speak for every game specifically, but in a lot of cases, you have to understand that the infantry units are more of an abstraction than anything else. For example, look at something like Command and Conquer, it's hard to imagine that one guy you build is really just one guy with a machine gun. But if you think of him as light infantry or something, well maybe he'll find away to take down the tank eventually, whereas, when you have rocket infantry in C&C you can think of it as a unit designed for anti-tank.

[creeping death]

Well, I can't speak for every game specifically, but in a lot of cases, you have to understand that the infantry units are more of an abstraction than anything else. For example, look at something like Command and Conquer, it's hard to imagine that one guy you build is really just one guy with a machine gun. But if you think of him as light infantry or something, well maybe he'll find away to take down the tank eventually, whereas, when you have rocket infantry in C&C you can think of it as a unit designed for anti-tank.


I agree with your assesment, but the problem is I have seen many games like C+C were a group of machine gun laden soldiers (NO RPGs etc!) wear down a tank with 5.56 or 7.62 MG rounds and last time I checked no MG has been able to pierce the armor of a tank.

That is why i love Combat Mission so much, you can see the Russians tossing molotov cocktails or a german unit firing a panzerfoust etc!! I need that detail in my games.

CD

[Jim H. Moreno]

So, the question comes to mind, how should tank battles be handled in RTS in accordance with historical accuracy and reality?

[creeping death]

So, the question comes to mind, how should tank battles be handled in RTS in accordance with historical accuracy and reality?


I know CMAK and the like are not Real time, but they are close and the level of detail that those games represent are beyond any other game. Every detail is there, weaknesses, strengths etc! I have been praying for someone to create a real time game similar in detail to the CM line, with a little Com+ conquer tossed in. I like building my forces through collecting money or whatever. If CnC made a WW2 realistic strategy game it would be great.

CD

[MAJ]

so what do you guys think? which is more accurate between the two? and what do you guys think of the games in general? and then there are the questions in the above two entries (i swear they're in there... somwhere...)
I don't know about these games but in real life most penetrations or serious spalling, because of how the ammo was stored, would at least kill and wound the crew. Now strange things can happen in combat. We had a Brad run over an IED and the entire turret was blown out and landed on the street, the gunner and TC walked away :surprise: the driver was blown out of his partially opened hatch and didn't survive. Also, when you hear about "vehicle survivability" they are talking about how quickly battle damage can be repaired, not about the crew!

[Overseer]

I agree with your assesment, but the problem is I have seen many games like C+C were a group of machine gun laden soldiers (NO RPGs etc!) wear down a tank with 5.56 or 7.62 MG rounds and last time I checked no MG has been able to pierce the armor of a tank.

That is why i love Combat Mission so much, you can see the Russians tossing molotov cocktails or a german unit firing a panzerfoust etc!! I need that detail in my games.

CD

But my point is, at least for really strategy light games like C&C, ignore what you see the infantry player with, that's just say the primary weapon in the group. Pretend it represents a squad, and somewhere in that squad is a guy with an rpg.

[Leftie]

I don't play Real Time Strategy Games for anything other than a little mindless fun. You can't go in expecting historical accurasy even if it is themed WWII. If you are looking for something more realistic you need to play the Combat Mission Series. I own all 3 of the games and still play them often. While they lack the eye candy of some big budget titles, they make up for it in the gameplay. If you don't mind strategic maps and counters you might give Highway to the Reich a try.

Also if you are new to heavier type wargames, you might try out Flashpoint Germany. It is pretty easy to learn the mechanics of the game but still meaty enough to give you that wargame fix. Of course this is a turn based game with grids and counters but with a little imagination it is quite fun.