NATO vs WP SPMBT Combat Campaign - Coming Soon! [Archive]

Double Deuce

11 May 05, 00:52

OK everyone. I will begin posting some initial data for the next planned Combat Campaign. At this point it looks like it will be;

NATO = (United States, Canada (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=336201&postcount=2), and West Germany (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380992&postcount=33))
vs
Warsaw Pact (Soviet Union, East Germany (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380993&postcount=34) and Hungary)

DATE: May 1984
LOCATION: Southern Germany

Of course everything is open to change. The main issue is awaiting the release of WinSPMBT which could change the OOB layouts.

Double Deuce

11 May 05, 01:02

NATO (Canada) - DRAFT - Starting Order of Battle (OOB).

4th Mech Brigade - Canada

...HQ/4th Mech Brigade

...1 RCHA Rgt/4th Mech Brigade
......1 Bn/1 RCHA Rgt/4th Mech Bde
......2 Bn/1 RCHA Rgt/4th Mech Bde
......3 Bn/1 RCHA Rgt/4th Mech Bde
......4 Bn/1 RCHA Rgt/4th Mech Bde

...4 CE Rgt/4th Mech Brigade
......1 Bn/4 CE Rgt/4th Mech Bde

...RC Dragoons/4th Mech Brigade
......1 Sqdn/RC Dragoons/4th Mech Bde
......2 Sqdn/RC Dragoons/4th Mech Bde
......3 Sqdn/RC Dragoons/4th Mech Bde

...1er Bn Roy 22e/4th Mech Brigade
......1 Co/1er Bn Roy 22e/4th Mech Bde
......2 Co/1er Bn Roy 22e/4th Mech Bde
......3 Co/1er Bn Roy 22e/4th Mech Bde
......4 Co/1er Bn Roy 22e/4th Mech Bde

...2nd Bn Pr Pat/4th Mech Brigade
......1 Co/2nd Bn Pr Pat/4th Mech Bde
......2 Co/2nd Bn Pr Pat/4th Mech Bde
......3 Co/2nd Bn Pr Pat/4th Mech Bde
......4 Co/2nd Bn Pr Pat/4th Mech Bde

Pannonicus

16 May 05, 17:12

Can I get a Soviet tank regiment?

Double Deuce

16 May 05, 17:52

Can I get a Soviet tank regiment?Not sure there will be one available yet. I am still creating the base OOB's. Since an MRD does however contain a Tank Regiment in the Soviet TO&E Manuals I have available, if the MRD is at full strength that is a possibility.

Pannonicus

17 May 05, 05:14

If not, a MRR will do it. :cry:

Double Deuce

17 May 05, 09:43

If not, a MRR will do it. :cry:For the Pact side I am looking at having;

x1 Overall Commander (for the 48th Motorized Rifle Division - he will also directly control ALL Division Support units - Recon, ADA, Artillery, etc),
x4 Regimental Commanders (1 for each Motorized Rifle Regiment and 1 for the Tank Regiment of the Soviet 48th MRD. Regimental Commanders will directly control ALL Regiment Support units - Recon, ADA, Artillery, etc).
x1 Regimental Commander (for the un-named East German Motorzed Rfile Regiment).
x? Supporting Commanders (to control units of the Regiments engaged in battles that a Regimental Commander may not have time or desire to fight out. For example parts of a Regiment are engaged in 2 different battles and the Regimental Commander does not wish to play both of them. He might fight the primary battle but delegate the other battle to a support commander acting as Battalion Commander).
Of course this is all to be worked out as we get uner way but you should have an idea of what I am envisioning.

NATO units will be commanded in the pretty much the same format.

Pannonicus

24 May 05, 08:17

Then the tank regiment please! :D :D :D

Double Deuce

24 May 05, 08:26

Please note that based on changes to the OOB's in WinSPMBT these DRAFT OOB's for the Campaign could be adjusted. The actual units listed will not change, just the #'s of units used to create them. They will be further adjusted based on points so that BOTH NATO and the WP are evenly matched. The Campaign will be essentially a huge Meeting Engagement.

Pannonicus

24 May 05, 16:32

Double Deuce

24 May 05, 17:31

WP and NATO were never evenly matched in terms of numbers. Western technical superiorty was balanced by Soviet numbers. To play a realistic campaign, maybe we should take a look at mobilized forces and their numbers. I mean, a WP attack would use MASS.

If numbers are even, more accurate weapons from the defending western armies will stop our attack.Sorry for the confusion. I meant evenly matched based on what actual NATO (US) forces were supposed to face (i.e at least 3-1 odds in the Pact favor). Once I post all Draft OOB's you'll see better. For example the US side will have 1 Brigade (essentially = to a Pact Regiment at best in numbers). Canadian, French and West German forces will be essentially very weak Regiments while the Pact will have an East German Regiment and a reinforced Soviet Motorzed Rifle Division.

Pannonicus

05 Jun 05, 08:08

Yep, I got it! It is fine like this.

I have an idea for another little twist. If in the game a German vs. German battle occures, what about lowering morale on both sides, let's say to 80-80%?

7thcav

05 Jun 05, 18:00

Count me in If ya still have an opening

Double Deuce

06 Jun 05, 08:53

Count me in If ya still have an openingWe haven't started signups or anything yet. We are waiting for the release of WinSPMBT since that will be the game we use for the Tactical Battle portion. We'll need time for those interested to get it downloaded and installed AND give me time to learn the scenario design capabilities and processes.

Double Deuce

28 Jun 05, 09:31

I am digging into the OOB's (current version) to see what I have to work with. I will use these to decide on an exact time frame and nations involved, etc. One thing that will slow this down is that I have to dump the units from MOBHack into COCAT so the actual COCAT units can be set up.

If anyone would like to see specific nations involved other than the ones I am planning (USA, Canada, France, West Germany, Soviet Union and East Germany) please post that here. Be advised this will take place in Southern Germany so nations involved should be close to what would have actually been participating in that area. I will entertain any nation though if it can be argued they may have found their way into that area in a prolonged Third World War. :laugh:

ALSO - It is still up in the air if I will use Zones, Hexes or and open Map (using COCAT Movement) for this Combat Campaign. I really need to see the limitations of the new WinSPMBT Map Editor to make a final decision though.

tinjaw

28 Jun 05, 10:15

Double Deuce

28 Jun 05, 16:05

The Cold War / World War III is my favorite genre to wargame. Let me know if you need any help putting stuff together. I would like a NATO command when things get rolling. (Probably mostly rolling over for the WP and rolling backwards for NATO :laugh: )I have the basic plan put together. Rigth now it is a matter of finalizing the rules, fleshing out the 2 sides, creating the campaign map and then opening enlistments.

One thing that is holding everything up is the shipping up the Enhanced CD Version. I need the enhanced Editor to see how to proceed with the finer details and see what work will be involved.

Double Deuce

28 Jun 05, 16:07

I would be interested in playing the Canadians (or part of) if you are looking for more players.I am hoping to adjust the OOB's so that the players can lead troops from their own nations. This will call for an even more hypothetical situation to explain the setup but I think it will be more enjoyable that way.

Double Deuce

21 Jul 05, 08:46

For those who want to participate I will be setting up a Poll to track interest. You will be able to post your preference for NATO or Warsaw Pact, and Command Level. I just need to sit down and work out a poll format so I can understand and keep track of everyones selections. :D

shadowcougar

21 Jul 05, 13:09

I would want to play. You have a loy going on. :cheeky:

Pannonicus

21 Jul 05, 17:08

If things are as it was discussed before, I would like to have that Soviet Tank Regiment, if possible! (Or if there would be Hungarians, than any of them!)

Double Deuce

21 Jul 05, 18:12

I have the base rules about completed and will post them soon.

One thing we will need to decide on is the movement tracking mechanism. I would prefer tio use COCAT BUT it is a bit finicky for players to get installed and running. Another thing is it would make my battle creation process a lot more difficult although more "realistic".

shadowcougar

21 Jul 05, 20:20

and where can you get it?

Double Deuce

21 Jul 05, 23:06

and where can you get it?It's a Campaign Management Tool. You can check it out on my forums HERE (http://www.combat-campaigns.com/smf/index.php#17). There are several versions but I prefer 2.13 as its the easiestto customize BUT has less fancy stuff built in.

Pannonicus

22 Jul 05, 03:47

Double Deuce

22 Jul 05, 10:00

I really like COCAT, I experimented a bit with it, and I think it is very good - although it is somehow complicated, I admit.

Maybe this campaign will last 3 years instead of 1,5 of the Island Civil War...Ask Artur about long running Campaigns. :whist: Red Snow is going on 3 years and the Crimean one before that went for almost 2 before it got out of control and I had to abandon it to concentrate on the others (and run things here).

COCAT is nice but like I mentioned can be finicky, especially the older versions.

Double Deuce

24 Jul 05, 11:31

Another update!

The Soviet MRD involved may become the 2nd MRD. and the East Germans may not be involved. It could be Czech and Hungarian supporting the Soviet 2nd MRD. Fixed wing air assets will most likely be from the Czech Air Force and any helo's will be Soviet.

mr_clark

24 Jul 05, 12:50

And you say thaty just as I wanted to apply for the GDR side :(

Ohh, and I klicked your COCAT link, it might be my bad but until now I don't know what the programm actually does.

Double Deuce

24 Jul 05, 16:52

And you say thaty just as I wanted to apply for the GDR side :(They may still be in the game. Actually, the OOB's are the easier part.

It's the operational map design and whether to use zone Movement (like the Island Civil War) or realistic movement (without hexes or zone in COCAT) like done with Red Snow and Crimean Campaign.

This is also the biggest holdup on a rules set. The type of movement system (and map format) has a large impact so until I decide what system, I cannot really finish up the rules. IF, when I get my Enhanced WinSPMBT CD I can do the things I am "hoping" I can make a quick decision AND use COCAT like I want to.

Double Deuce

26 Jul 05, 17:58

Removed French forces from Campaign to reduce the overall size of the armies. Trying to keep it manageable.

desh44

29 Jul 05, 01:21

Am interested in finding out more about this campaign. Have been playing SP for quite a while but have never been involved in a campaign. It sounds interesting and any information would be appreciated on how it works and how to get involved

Tom D

Double Deuce

29 Jul 05, 10:56

desh44 - Read through the Island Civil War Campaign (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=71) threads. They should you give you a pretty good understanding of this type game although it will not follow te zone movement format. As soon as I get my Enhanced CD I can make a better decision on the Operation Movement format I want to use.

desh44

29 Jul 05, 17:53

Checked out the island campaign threads...I think I got the feel of how the game. If there is a space in NATO vs WP. I would be interested. I think the best way to find out is to jump in with both feet

Thanks
Tom

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 09:01

NATO (West German) - DRAFT - Starting Order of Battle (OOB).

35th PanzerGrenadier Brigade/12th Panzer Division - West German

...HQ/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div

...355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......1 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......2 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......3 Bty/355th PzG FA/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div

...351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......1 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......2 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......3 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......4 Co/351st PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div

...352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......1 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......2 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......3 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......4 Co/352nd PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div

...354th Pz Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......1 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......2 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div
......3 Co/354th PzG Bn/35th PzG Bde/12th Pz Div

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 09:07

WP (East German) - DRAFT - Starting Order of Battle (OOB).

9th Tank Division (-) - East Germany

...HQ/9th Tank Division
......9 Rec Bn/9th Tk Div
......9 Eng Bn/9th Tk Div
......3 Art Bn/9th DAG/9th Tk Div

...9th MRR/9th Tank Division
......1 Bn/9th MRR/9th Tk Div
......2 Bn/9th MRR/9th Tk Div
......3 Bn/9th MRR/9th Tk Div
......4 Bn/9th MRR/9th Tk Div

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 09:16

OK everyone here are links to the latest DRAFT OOB's. At this point I still need to add the Hungarian forces as well as Air Assets (fixed and Rotary);

NATO = (United States (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=381011&postcount=37), Canada (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=336201&postcount=2), and West Germany (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380992&postcount=33))
vs
Warsaw Pact (Soviet Union (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380997&postcount=36), East Germany (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380997&postcount=36) and Hungary)

DATE: May 1984
LOCATION: Southern Germany

Of course everything is still open to change. The main holdup at this point is awaiting the reciept of my Enhanced WinSPMBT CD.

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 09:19

WP (Soviet Union) - DRAFT - Starting Order of Battle (OOB).

2nd Motorized Rifle Division (-) - Soviet Union

...HQ/2nd Motorized Rifle Division
......2 Rec Bn/2nd MR Div
......2 AT Bn/2nd MR Div
......2 Eng Bn/2nd MR Div
......3 Art Bn/2nd DAG/2nd MR Div
......4 Art Bn/2nd DAG/2nd MR Div

...6th MRR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division (BTR)
......1 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
......2 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
......3 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div
......4 Bn/6th MRR/2nd MR Div

...7th MRR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division (BMP)
......1 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
......2 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
......3 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div
......4 Bn/7th MRR/2nd MR Div

...9th TR/2nd Motorized Rifle Division
......1 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
......2 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div
......3 Bn/9th TR/2nd MR Div

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 09:53

NATO (United States) - DRAFT - Starting Order of Battle (OOB).

2nd Brigade/8th Infantry Division - United States

...HQ/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

...88th Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......A Co/4 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......B Co/4 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......C Co/4 Eng Bn/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

...4th Bn/29th FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......A Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......B Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......C Bty/4 Bn/29 FA/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

...2nd Bn/68th Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......A Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......B Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......C Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......D Co/2 Bn/68 Arm Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

...1st Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......A Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......B Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......C Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......D Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......E Co/1 Bn/13 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

...1st Bn/39th Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......A Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......B Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......C Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......D Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div
......E Co/1 Bn/39 Inf Rgt/2nd Bde/8th Inf Div

Pergite

02 Aug 05, 09:58

http://www.dippold.org/bundeswehr/barett/bilder/panzergrenadier.jpg

DD, I hearby request permission to assume command of the 351st PzG Bn.

A whole Bn (1984) would probably be a force consiting of:
40x Marder´s, 6x M125´s, 6x 120mm Mortar, 4x M577, 12x M113, 18x Milan´s and a whole lot of mean Panzer Grenadiers

Double Deuce

02 Aug 05, 10:06

DD, I hearby request permission to assume command of the 351st PzG Bn.

A whole Bn (1984) would probably be a force consiting of:
40x Marder´s, 6x M125´s, 6x 120mm Mortar, 4x M577, 12x M113, 18x Milan´s and a whole lot of mean Panzer GrenadiersNot all units will be at full strength due to the war having been going on for at least 6 months. The units listed in the OOB's will be there BUT they may be at reduced/varied strength.

Also, players may not really have assigned units. They may be assigned a Team and the teams works out who fights if a force is involved. If you have an assigned unit it may be "months" before you ever get to be invoved in any SPMBT battles.

There will most likely be 6 teams (1 for each Nation involved) with a couple players on each of the larger teams. In addition 1 player will be in Command of the WP and NATO Team. Not so much in command but an "overseerer" to coordinate planning, movement orders, etc.

desh44

04 Aug 05, 00:41

I would be interested in playing on the soviet team
Tom D

Pannonicus

05 Aug 05, 08:03

Here is my draft of a Hungarian "Mixed" Regiment. It could be actually a mix of remaining mobile elements in that sector. Numbers of units will follow later, I am still doing some research. (from 1985 we partially abandoned the regiment system, and moved to brigade structure, so it is a little bit of confusing time).

Feel free to change!

Hungarian "Regiment" Actually it is like a small battle group, build around a MIB and TB

Mixed "Battalion" (or the Rag Tag Unit)

Air Defense
2x ZSU-23-4
1xZSU-57-2 (depleted battery)
2xStrela-1 (SA-9) (half battery)

Artillery
8x2S1 Gvozdyka (battery)
2x2S3 Akatsya (very depleted battery)
5x2B9 Vasyljok (depleted battery)
2xArmored ammo carrier
3xAmmo trucks

Air Mobile Group (-)
1x Mi-9 Ivolga (flying Mi-8 command post – no armament, but advanced communications)
3x Mi-24D Hind
1x Airmobile Company (Mi-8T helicopters)

AT platoon
4x100mm AT guns
4x Trucks
3xBRDM-2 w/ Malyutka

Recon section
2x D-422 FUG
2x Scout sections

Motorized platoons (2x)
3x D-944 PSZH
3x Motor Rifle Squad

Mechanized Infantry Battalion
(full streght)

Tank Battalion
2x T-72M Companies
1x T-55AM Company (replacement for lost T-72s)
1x VT-72 (T-72 with crane and dozer)
2x VT-55

Double Deuce

09 Aug 05, 12:30

I have added individual OOB threads for each involved nation in the NATO vs WP Combat Campaign. These are only drafts and are there for comments, suggestions and tweaking, etc. I have not added the Hungarians or any others that may be included. Consider these the working copies. :D

This should give interest players a better idea of the forces involved. I plan to have at least 2 commanders for each nation. These same players will make up a command group to handle the operational functions of the game (i.e. making sure orders are posted, ongoing OOB's are accuarate, etc).

John Osborne

09 Aug 05, 12:43

Pannonicus

09 Aug 05, 16:29

If you need me for operational command, I am ready to that too. The ideal would be to be a deputy of someone else. As I did the same job as UN Commander in Island Civil War, I can do it again.

Pannonicus

09 Aug 05, 16:37

What is the deadline for finalizing OOBs? I still want to do some reading/talking to people on the Hungarian set up. Maybe next week.

Double Deuce

09 Aug 05, 17:10

What is the deadline for finalizing OOBs? I still want to do some reading/talking to people on the Hungarian set up. Maybe next week.There is time. I am still working on the maps and operational movement system.

If we use COCAT and freeform movement I will need to build at least 20 160x120 hex SPMBT Maps. :nuts:

Good news though is that I now have the MAP Editor and my SPMBT CD in my hands. :)

Vesku

13 Aug 05, 02:31

Hi!

Combat Campaign has moved since I participated in Red Snow, can you point me to the right direction? I'm interested in your new campaign and would like to join in the WP, any nation will do and any force, I'm easy :)

Vesku

Artur

13 Aug 05, 02:35

Vesku,

Welcome!

The combat campaidgs site is still at www.combat-campaigns.com.
You can go to forum area there.

There is no website for this campaign YET. I suggest you to take the soviet BMP regiment ASAP.

Artur.

Vesku

13 Aug 05, 02:41

Artur helped me with the site in a minute. Still interested in joining though :)

Vesku

13 Aug 05, 02:45

Why soviet mech reg? Anything great about them? For me participating is enough and I'm willing to help where no-one else is willing to take command. Makes it a bit more challenging and rarely you can choose your unit during war, you are assigned to a unit and that's it :). Would you like to assign me to a unit then?

Vesku

Artur

13 Aug 05, 02:49

I am not assigning units just giving hints :laugh:.

Take a look at the different threads about the Soviet, East German OOBs. The Hungarian is chosen by Pannonicus, the East German by MR Clark.

The soviet unit is very big there are 3 regiments. I chose the tank regiment and there is a BMP regiment and a BTR regiment.

There will be other players to join the fight but I guess the Regiment commanders will have responsabilities for those units but they will not fight every portion of them. We have no over-all commander yet as well.

Artur.