View Full Version : Another New Panzer Campaign is MASTERED
Glenn Saunders
08 May 05, 01:38
This title will be released on the TILLERCON Weekend in Richmond Virginia - Friday June 17th. Hope to see anyone who can make it there.
Also - with any luck HPS will have something new up next Friday. All I can say for now is that it is NOT a Panzer Campaign, but it covers a World War II topic, and is the start of something new, with additional titles to follow.
...but there are still more PzCs coming too - we're actively working on another title that has been in the works since PzC #3. Lots of good games to come if you like John Tiller Wargames.
Glenn
Nice! How about a hint or a riddle or something to keep us occupied?
I have to say... I've never understood the need for the mystery once a title goes gold. It's not like software competitors are going to put out a title and it's not very likely that a software company will pull the title (especially given pzc's long history) before it hits the 'store'.
The cloak and dagger with software companies and their releases after a title has gone gold is kind of silly imo.
Glenn Saunders
08 May 05, 13:12
> The cloak and dagger with software companies and their releases after a title has gone gold is kind of silly imo.
Sorry - it isn't my policy or mode of doing things. This is an HPS Game and thus the publisher is the one who is responsible for this aspect of the marketing. The market is very small and there is only one chance for any buzz - having that buzz too early is not good either.
That said one - info on the France '40 title leaked out too soon and on one forum a thread developed where a guy was suggesting France '40 was not a good topic of a Panzer Campaign - all this site unseen. And of course there was the infamous "Bocage Da Jour" Debates back when Normandy was announced - there we had a huge debate on why Normandy (which is more of the most popular titles) was also a poor topic for the game engine.
Anyway - Scott Hamilton owns the company and his company is charged with this - look for the HPS website to confirm the title just as soon as he and the folks he has involved with taking orders and shipping games are readyto handle those requests.
Glenn
Joao Lima
08 May 05, 13:29
All I can say for now is that it is NOT a Panzer Campaign, but it covers a World War II topic, and is the start of something new, with additional titles to follow.
Do not tell me it is a FPS...
Joao Lima
08 May 05, 13:34
And of course there was the infamous "Bocage Da Jour" Debates back when Normandy was announced - there we had a huge debate on why Normandy (which is more of the most popular titles) was also a poor topic for the game engine.
It is quite obvious that Normandy is one of the most suited titles for PzC, much more than some of the other titles obviously, but about France 40, you could be presented *and you probably know that( with series and series of posts about why France 40 is bad for any wargame *at least one that intends to provide historically accurate results and gameplay) there are some interesting minor battles in that campaign, but to put France 40 in an wargame as an whole , for me, is rather uninteresting.
But going back to the topic one can argue that there is no bad publicity, just look at your own example about Normandy 44 and you see that even though the tittle leaked out early and it was trashed it come out as a top seller...
Sorry - it isn't my policy or mode of doing things.
I realize it's not you. I tried to be somewhat clear by denoting it was software companies that have this view.
This is an HPS Game and thus the publisher is the one who is responsible for this aspect of the marketing. The market is very small and there is only one chance for any buzz - having that buzz too early is not good either.
Not sure if I agree or not with that last bit. Matrixgames for instance, also a publisher of niche market games, such as war in the pacific, do advertise and point out what games are in the pipeline. I know the developers of the witp game did state that their sales are what they expected.
I think anonymous buzz is what hurts a game. People get their hopes up for what something might be and disappointed if it doesn't meet those expectations.
That said one - info on the France '40 title leaked out too soon and on one forum a thread developed where a guy was suggesting France '40 was not a good topic of a Panzer Campaign - all this site unseen. And of course there was the infamous "Bocage Da Jour" Debates back when Normandy was announced - there we had a huge debate on why Normandy (which is more of the most popular titles) was also a poor topic for the game engine.
The situation with the normandy title would back my point, no? Early buzz before release, discussion, and so on. Yet still, one of the most popular titles. I think a reasonable argument could be made that early info didn't hurt sales.
Anyway - Scott Hamilton owns the company and his company is charged with this - look for the HPS website to confirm the title just as soon as he and the folks he has involved with taking orders and shipping games are readyto handle those requests.
Will do...
Just needed to rant some. Squeaky wheel and all that...
A whole new tactical game?? A sort off enhanced Squad Battles??
Im dreaming..........
Dave68124
09 May 05, 01:04
Guys-
I have had the pleasure to work with Glenn on a very limited basis, and after seeing the debate come forth on France '40 before its launch, it is hard to blame HPS for their marketing tactics. I previously questioned the stategy and was told the same N44 story above, then I saw first hand what happens when only the first couple of buttons of the blouse come undone.
There was a lot of ranting and raving about how France 40 was not a good title, etc. and now everyone is clamoring aboard the band wagon saying this is the best game to date.
We should be glad that as a distributor, when HPS tells us there is a game on the shelf, then we know we are $40 and 5 days away from playing it. Is the waiting frustrating, of course, but I am glad to know when I am getting horned up for something, then there will be another party to oblige. It's no fun going it alone.
Joao Lima
09 May 05, 06:17
Actually I could (strickly on marketing terms) disagree but I think the most interesting thing from what Glenn wrote was the 'All I can say for now is that it is NOT a Panzer Campaign, but it covers a World War II topic, and is the start of something new,...', that bit was really the catching part, I just hope that it's not a RTS or worst very worst a FPS...
I cant see them doing an RTS or FPS. Maybe its wego game?
Joao Lima
09 May 05, 10:33
I cant see them doing an RTS or FPS. Maybe its wego game?
Not much of a change in there. At least not when compared to PzC, it would not be that much different just look at some previous WEGO games...
If I had to guess I would bet on a PzC on the air or on the sea, Air Campaigns or Sea Campaigns... but then again if they released a FPS or a RTS they would sell it like hot cakes and it does not take that much work to do, if you couple it with a sort of 'get John Tiller realism with John Romero action' it could be called something like 'J&J Doom Campaign'...
Whatever it is, it's peaked my curiosity...
Full Monty
09 May 05, 13:53
.. but then again if they released a FPS or a RTS they would sell it like hot cakes and it does not take that much work to do, if you couple it with a sort of 'get John Tiller realism with John Romero action' it could be called something like 'J&J Doom Campaign'...
Which would feature .....
Great graphics, a hideously complex interface, lousy AI, hexes, realistic damage modelling and be much better online :devil:
Sorry, couldn't resist :laugh:
Havent seen a complex interface from HPS myself. SB and PZC have an excellent user interface. Other games Ive no idea though.
Paulinski
09 May 05, 15:47
I would think it will be something with similar interface to Pc, Mc games......Maybe a core module with extensions to follow.
Whatever it is I will most likely buy it.
Chips 'n' Bits is listing a game called "World War II: The First Blitzkrieg," part of a new series called "Total War in Europe." I know Tiller has been rumored to be working on a "War in Europe"-like game--I wonder if this series is it? There's a short description on the Chips & Bits site (www.chipsbits.com), and they say the game is shipping Friday. There's also a blurb for Napoleonic Battles: Campaign Waterloo, which has been rumored recently.
Figured the one would be a grand strategy title given that we already have the regimental and squad sized games...
Best part is this:
The First Blitzkrieg is the start of what will be a series of games called Total War in Europe. Unit scale ranges from divisions to battalions, and includes air groups. Map scale is 10 kilometers per hex and two days per turn. Each game map is part of a greater Master Map, encompassing the whole of Europe and parts of North Africa and Western Asia with a quarter million hexes. The Master Map will be released with the final game in the series.
Master map sounds fun! Hopefully the final game will allow us to play the whole war in one title from 39 until say 46 or something. Something that 'connects' all the games.
I'm also happy that another napoleonic title is coming out! :D
Glenn Saunders
09 May 05, 17:36
word is up.
http://www.chipsbits.com/index.asp?CartId={F8157F19-CBBE-4734-920EVEREST4-3C8B94EAA6AB}&url=IND
++++
In September 1939 a new form of warfare erupted in Europe, one that would forever transform how wars were fought. As German panzers rolled across Poland, a new word was spoken to describe combined armor and air operations: Blitzkrieg. Following the conquest of Poland, Germany would then turn its attention to Scandinavia and then to France and the Low Countries in the first few years of what would become the Second World War. Can you command the German panzers with the same skill as Guderian and Rommel, or as the Allies, can you stop the Wehrmacht where the historical commanders failed?
First Blitzkrieg contains seventeen scenarios and campaigns from the invasion of Poland to the Fall of France. There are also hypothetical scenarios drawn from Operation Sea Lion (the planned German invasion of Britain) and "what if" the Allies had taken the offensive against Germany in the autumn of 1939. Players have the opportunity to alter the course of history on both the operational and strategic level.
The First Blitzkrieg is the start of what will be a series of games called Total War in Europe. Unit scale ranges from divisions to battalions, and includes air groups. Map scale is 10 kilometers per hex and two days per turn. Each game map is part of a greater Master Map, encompassing the whole of Europe and parts of North Africa and Western Asia with a quarter million hexes. The Master Map will be released with the final game in the series.
The First Blitzkrieg comes with an extensive historical order-of-battle and scenario editor so players can create their own scenarios.
SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS:
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS: Pentium-based 133mhz+ PC with 32 megabytes of RAM, 280 megabytes of hard drive space, Windows 98 or XP operating system. (Windows is a registered trademark of Microsoft)
Joao Lima
09 May 05, 17:37
Unit scale ranges from divisions to battalions, and includes air groups. Map scale is 10 kilometers per hex and two days per turn. Each game map is part of a greater Master Map, encompassing the whole of Europe and parts of North Africa and Western Asia with a quarter million hexes. The Master Map will be released with the final game in the series.
It can be rather interesting. Too bad is not 5km per hex and Regiments, but hey I'm just dreaming. Anyway it is an interesting idea. :)
Full Monty
09 May 05, 17:50
Not more hexes :scream:
Oh well, it's 'Grand Strategy' (-ish) so that's not such a big deal :)
Ugh.
More money to spend. :)
Joao Lima
09 May 05, 18:09
Each game map is part of a greater Master Map, encompassing the whole of Europe and parts of North Africa and Western Asia with a quarter million hexes.
Which area will the map of the first game comprehend?
Ugh.
More money to spend. :)
I know the feeling...
Oh well. Not for me Im afraid.
Keep my fingers crossed for a new SB game.
I've checked the screenshots available from the NWS website and all I can say is: I want it!!!
I like Panzer Campaigns, don't get me wrong.
This looks like Panzer Campaigns, but with a slightly different scale, nothing else.
I am finding it hard to feel excited by a design concept that might as well be called "Panzer Campaigns 2 the Remarketing".
Not a crime to want to sell wargames, but couldn't they at least try to make something new?
I would have preferred they at least try to make an actual grand strategy wargame.
The grand strategy wargaming community doesn't really have to be serviced by just Hubert Cater does it?
Not that I want to take money out of Hubert's pocket. But currently it's only him making grand strategy wargames in the classic board game looking style (for Europe).
Keep in mind, I have Gary Grigsby's World at War, and I prefer to label if beer and pretzels grand strategy, while SC is a Third Reich type classic type board game.
The distinction being, one is slanted towards simple easy fun, and the other indepth detailed accuracy.
I don't think I will be needing these ones, unless someone explains where the actual difference exists.
I don't think I will be needing these ones, unless someone explains where the actual difference exists.
Glenn? Can you answer Aries' request? Thanks
trauth116
09 May 05, 22:14
Sounds like a little larger scale than the Europa series ... this is not Grand Strategy ... but rather operational on a strategic scale.
Edit: Nope - actually more like EFS scale... This one sounds like a winner of a series!!!!
Trigger Happy
09 May 05, 23:24
D***! I hoped it would be a new Squad Battles : Destruction of the Reich, or something like that.
Though it may look interesting. I've tried some PzC games before, but there always been something that did not feel reight, but I did not think it was the scale.. something else. I've always wanted to play tactical fight in operational context. Anyway, this one seems like operations in strategic context which could also be fun.
Glenn Saunders
10 May 05, 00:26
> This looks like Panzer Campaigns, but with a slightly different scale, nothing else.
> I am finding it hard to feel excited by a design concept that might as well be called "Panzer Campaigns 2 the Remarketing".
If this is how you feel - by all means pass on it. But don't judge a book by its cover either.
A buddy of mine got a pre-release copy and he said after he tried it:
"The game took a bit of getting used to. It looks so much like a PzC game that it is easy to forget first going off that that is not what it is."
A few days later he said:
"I'm finally getting into the rythmn of the new game. And while it took a number of restarts. Thought you might be interested to see the attached btl for the historical Poland scn. I'm kind of proud of this one. Major Victory scored in several turns less than the allotted number. This is a really good game!”
So there you have it. Now you also said you like Tiller\HPS Games, and if that is the case, you should like this one too. And likewise, people who don't like the Tillers Games probably won't like this one either for any number of reasons. But either way, I honestly don't think you have seen enough to support your remarks above.
Glenn
Right now the biggest possible selling point for me would be the ability to play campaigns that span several of the games expansions when they come out since they all use a master map. Is something like this going to be possible?
Also how do the sizes of the battles compare with Panzer Campaigns in terms of # of units & # of hexes on a map does in comapare? Or are the scenarios larger?
You can download a couple pictures from NWS.
http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246778232/wowariifibln.html
The game looks comparable to a pzc campaign scenario with regards to number of units.
Glenn Saunders
10 May 05, 11:07
Yes - owners of all the titles will be able to span the time periods on the master map NORAD.
As for the size of the scns compared to PzC, well, hard question to answer really because there is a wide variety of PzC CG and Scn sizes. So it is there is a lot of variation here too.
I found the entire France 40 Scn covering Holland to the Med to be larger than some players would like so I provided some options for something smaller areas and timeframes in the scns covering France.
Glenn
Thanks Glenn...you have in all likelyhood probably just made a sale. :)
As some of you know I am a big fan of Squad Battles. A game that in my eyes is underated and sadly a poor second cousin to the other HPS games. We now have a new series which to be honest I cant really see how playing it will be any different to playing PzC. Someone said milking the cash cow and I have to agree.
I was hoping for either a totally new kind of game. SOmething that looks and plays different to other HPS games. I really was hoping for something on the platoon level.
You see on several polls Ive seen tactical games come out on top and yet HPS tactical game isnt a hit. Obviously Squad Battles needs some improvements and yes patch's have come out but the changes are nothing compared to the PzC games. So I thought maybe HPS would try again with a slighlty different scale but still at a tactical level.
All I can hope for now is that some big changes are made to SB in the future. Not a drastic change that requires a new engine but some major gameplay enhancments.
Anyway Im sure many of the PzC crowd will be happy. The more the better. I also think some will think why bother when PzC does the job.
Joao Lima
10 May 05, 19:12
All I can hope for now is that some big changes are made to SB in the future. Not a drastic change that requires a new engine but some major gameplay enhancments.
I entirely agree with you regarding SB, in fact it's almst the only HPS game I play, I'm opening an exception ofr the tournament regarding PzC, but I'm afraid we won't have any goodies regarding SB in the future... The series seem that somehow is stucked, is very near to be a great,great tactical game, but still no one seems willing to put the little work in that. Maybe something related to the actual sales figures of the series... :cry:
KG_RangerBooBoo
10 May 05, 19:38
I'm not sure where you see this game just being another PZCampaign? From the screen shots and descriptions it looks to be a lot bigger in scale. The scenarios that I remember, the Invasion of Poland and the Fall of France make it sound like a lot bigger scale then a PzCampaign. This is a divisional level game with smaller independent units from the look of the screenshots I saw. I for one will be looking at it pretty hard when the wife okay's another purchase or decides to really get something off my list for Father's Day or Christmas.
Yep, when the wife is feeling generous, I'm going to get this one.
Paulinski
10 May 05, 23:24
I agree. We need more SB titles. How about the seconds half of East Front battles. Afghanistan, Yugoslav Civil War, Chechnya. No political statements here:)
Glenn Saunders
11 May 05, 00:19
> We now have a new series which to be honest I cant really see how playing it will be any different to playing PzC. Someone said milking the cash cow and I have to agree.
Woldin:
If you can look at a couple screenshots and tell how the game plays, man you have much better insight that I have. :)
Lets see - compare PzC to the new game
Both games have ZOCs, but so does a lot of games and they don't play like PzC. Both games focus on ground combat. Combat is between adjacent units - not firing over hexes. But then again lots of games like TOAW do this too. Both games rate troops from A-F but so does 1776 and Squad Battles and I think they are quite different games.
So while it isn't what you wanted in a new tactical engine, please don't say it is PzC at another scale, because there is no PzC Code in this game. It was built from scratch starting just after PzC #3 came out. Sure it is a Tiller Game with a style in the images which can make the Gettysburg and Panzer Campaign similar. Even the AI came from John's recent defense contract and none of that AI code is in any PzC's.
Looks can be deceiving! But if your only into tactical stuff, give it a pass because this isn't it - we'll do more at that lower level scale in due course.
Glenn
Hi folks...
I've been an occasional lurker on these forums, although you might have seen my posts over on the Unofficial Squad Battles forum on wargame.ch since I am a Squad Battles fan. Nice to see a few posts above mention that you play the SB series. Maybe we can have our own forum here at WarfareHQ :)? I agree with Wodin and Joao Lima, it's a shame that the SB series hasn't been very popular, since I like that scale. Frank Harmon did say back in February over on Task Force Echo Four site that he was working on another SB title, but that news item was later removed from the page, so I don't know what that means.
Back to the main subject matter...
First of all I'd like to thank Glenn Saunders for his web site and other activities promoting the HPS Sims games. I would have never tried a Panzer Campaign series game if it hadn't been for the information he has been posting.
Since this thread has been hijacked into a "World War in Europe: The First Blitzkrieg" thread, I'd like to ask Glenn about the AI in this new series. It has been mentioned that this is not the PzC AI. Do you have any more details? The AI in the PzC (and other Tiller games) at the player accessible editor level has been a "programmed opponent" (PO) type. In PzC, IIRC there usually is only one objective for a unit/organization, while in the SB series (and NB/EAW/ACW) a unit can be assigned multiple objectives and game turn triggers. Will the new game series use this more detailed programmed opponent, or are we talking something different? This is of great interest to me since I only solo play.
Glen,
Sorry Im just a little bitter over the possible demise of SB and the lack of major enhancements to the game.
jztemple
A new game is being developed. It might be the other game released at TillerCon. I'd prefer some major enhancements to the previous games to be honest though.
Joao Lima
11 May 05, 07:29
A new game is being developed. It might be the other game released at TillerCon. I'd prefer some major enhancements to the previous games to be honest though.
Are we talking about a new tactical game similar in principle to SB or a new approach?
In the last couple of days, I have seen almost all my interest in ever getting anything new that looks even closely like an operational wargame suffer a major shut down in interest.
I already own sufficient operational titles to cover in every aspect every nook and cranny of WW2.
A slighty different scale is not going to convert into a sale that easily.
This is not to say the game won't sell .... to anyone that is just starting to hoard operational scope computer wargames.
But, W.O.C recently did a nice job sponging off all my attention with their announcement of collectible WW2 miniatures that are prepainted :)
Collectible will be a hassle yes, much nicer to play the game like say Up Front (which was a non collectible card game).
But getting reasonable pre painted miniatures will be nice, even if the rules blow chunks and I have to go and bring in a decent waragme's rules to use the miniatures with. In the end, I have been kept out of miniatures type wargaming, because I don't have time to paint them, ain't having someone charge me a fortune for the favour and refuse to game with em unpainted.
That all said, I have seen 3 images for this new Tiller line.
A game art shot featuring a Panther tank which only a clod would have chosen (they should have picked a Pzkw II or III). And a couple of screenies that are indistinguishable from any other Tiller PzC title.
That's the same as no information almost.
So until this game actually exists, and people are talking ad naseum about the differences in AI, play style, and functional improvements, I guess we simply have nothing to work with :)
It comes back to I need to need it.
I don't "need" Combat Leader either. So unless when it is released, it actually DOES massively improve on Steel Panthers (and seeing is believing sometimes) it won't merit using scarce resources.
And resources are truely scarce for most of us normally.
It will likely be a good program as far as product goes. Can't picture Tiller releasing a "bad program".
It might end up selling more to people that missed out on getting the PzC titles though.
Full Monty
11 May 05, 09:09
Even the AI came from John's recent defense contract and none of that AI code is in any PzC's.
Glenn
Now that would be an improvement! The biggest problem I have with Tiller's games (and, to be fair, many other games) is the unchallenging nature of the enemy AI. I shall be keeping an eye on this one :)
Paulinski
11 May 05, 09:58
What I don't get from this threads here and on other forums (the blitz) etc. Why so much negative comments about new titles....
If you think the new game is just a cash grab don't get it period....
The game hasn't shipped out to anyone yet magically ppl are complaining about it. Have you played it yet? Has there any reviews posted.
Lots of work goes in every game title so why not show a little appreciation for the ppl involved as opposed to bashing yet to be released title.
Rant off....
Are we talking about a new tactical game similar in principle to SB or a new approach?
Just another SB release. Which is great news on the one hand but not as great as a revamp of the game engine.
Still I am still a massive fan of SB.
Again I apologise for knocking the new game. I was just ranting due to my own personnal disspointment at the scale.
Im sure like all the other HPS games it will be good and many will enjoy it.
printshop
11 May 05, 10:20
What I don't get from this threads here and on other forums (the blitz) etc. Why so much negative comments about new titles....
If you think the new game is just a cash grab don't get it period....
The game hasn't shipped out to anyone yet magically ppl are complaining about it. Have you played it yet? Has there any reviews posted.
Lots of work goes in every game title so why not show a little appreciation for the ppl involved as opposed to bashing yet to be released title.
Rant off....
You're right that there's not enough info out yet to make an educated comment on the new series. However, having played all the PzC series for many years now I expect that HPS will continue to make solid, stable quality products.
Joao Lima
11 May 05, 10:24
Just another SB release. Which is great news on the one hand but not as great as a revamp of the game engine.
:OHNO: I was hoping for something diffrent, specially because I fear that it will be another WW2 title and this time on the Mediterranean Theater... :rolleyes:
Paulinski
11 May 05, 10:36
Joao
That the first I'm hearing about new SB title.....Please Please Afghanistan......I think I'll have better luck winning lottery:)
Thing about SB is as someone said its quite easy to mod.
A bit of effort you could get any era.
Africa at War proved that.
Glenn Saunders
11 May 05, 16:08
Woldin:
I'll try to catch up on this thread here later but I missed the part about the demiss of Squad Battles.
I know John has a couple new titles going on this series so your info source is misleading here I am afraid.
Glenn
Joao Lima
11 May 05, 18:02
I know John has a couple new titles going on this series so your info source is misleading here I am afraid.
Glenn if I may ask, will there be any Modern SB's in the future? I mean Warsaw Pact-NATO or anything like that? I dont want to know any details of dates or wathever just if the possibility exists.
Paulinski
11 May 05, 18:04
Woot Woot More SB titles....Thats is some great news.
Glen,
Im aware at least two SB games are in the works. However what I feel is needed to make the game a big seller is some major enhancements. I have tried to get new people into SB and on awhole its an uphill struggle and it shouldnt be. It wouldnt take much to really turn this series into something great.
My own personnel feelings (aswell as a few others who have posted at the Blitz SB forum) is that SB stands a chance of being written off. THIS I do not want to happen. John Tiller has been great. He listend to me with regards to having the MG 42 effectiveness increased aswell as the tank assault issue being implimented into other games in the series. He upgraded four games in two weeks. HOWEVER there are several other enhancements that could be made which would demand a fair bit of programming time that I feel HPS wouldnt spare for a game thats low down on the pecking order.
I hope that someone from HPS does a community poll to see what changes we would like and then take it from there.
trauth116
11 May 05, 19:58
Hey Wodin - to be honest -every game stands a chance of being written off -- look at what used to be the Europa system - they had been owned (after GDW) by Winston Hamilton - he passed on -the series has had 2 owners since, and aside from their magazine, and some big ideas infrequently posted onto websites - nothing ...
So you never know ...
Glenn Saunders
11 May 05, 20:30
> Glenn if I may ask, will there be any Modern SB's in the future? I mean Warsaw Pact-NATO or anything like that? I dont want to know any details of dates or wathever just if the possibility exists.
I don't know - honestly - I am not really involved in that series and I am afraid John is away right now so I can't even ask him his thoughts.
In any case, I certainly can't please Woldin on his requests for major changes to the SB System that he wanted. In fact in the first post I thought he was looking for a new Series on a different level and it looks like that was not a correct assessment either. /-:
Nothing I can say or do to help this.
Glenn
Actually Glenn I think he was asking for both but if I may add these few thoughts for Wodin...
I was a little cold on the SB series myself at first. I now own TOD, ES & AOTR, they are great for quick pbems. The series has grown on me a lot. While its ease of use is making it one of my games of choice, I don't think it is the best model of tactical warfare on the market.
HPS IS working on a new tactical game last I heard...sort of anyway. Seemed that Scott mentioned a revision of Panthers in the Shadows using the POA-2 engine. This engine is probably the most detailed (tracking every bullit) tactical system around...but the problem is it has been a nightmare of bugs and much needed interface/play streamlining. This has probably (speculation on my part) been the number one factor for delaying the WWII version. Once they iron out whatever issues the game is having I think you will probably see the WWII version come down the pike.
If you can't wait for that I would recommend checking out the Platoon level Campaign Series (East Front II, WestFront & Rising Sun) that Tiller worked on for TalonSoft. It has the feel of a tiller game at a tactical level. There is enough detail to keep most grogs intersted but is easy enough for the average Jo. There are a ton of scenarios for it too. With more being released by the Blitz. It also retains that sort of ASL look and feel.
My personal favorite for simulating realism with the Combat System is CM (I realize it is not perfect but it does a good job pretending) but I know you don't care for the 3D interface from other posts...also it is slow to pbem and not my favorite for that.
StealPanthers is also a good tactical system and it is free.
Glenn Saunders
12 May 05, 01:07
Guys:
I confess to know being fully in the loop on the SB Series. I do however know that there are titles in the works and serious work being done for them - how much enhance of the engine I don't know and I don't want to mislead anyone with remarks that suggest otherwise.
But ask yourself for a second - would John Tiller be writting off a Series and then have active titles in the works?
Norad:
ON the TS series your are recomending to me (I think) - I was in on that one with Charlie Kibler and Bob MacNamara and John Tiller from the original EAST FRONT right up to RISING SUN. I wrote every Tutorial for those games, I proof read every manual after the first one and provided extensive comments to Kibler. And I created by hand the index that appeared in the back of the manual. :)
... my much shot is even in the art work.
Great Series - and it sure has had a long life. But once Charlie and the guys went one way and Tiller went another, well, I figured I would stay with the one making the new games as I enjoy that most.
Glenn
Glen,
I dont think JT wants to write off SB. Its just a feeling I have that if the series doesnt get some enhancements then the game will die off. This is NOT what I want. I love the series. Fully hooked. However to make big sales it needs some improvements.
An ASL campaign system for AOTR fighting in Stalingrad has been made BUT you need an umpire. It looks fantastic. If this was implimented into the game without the need of an umpire then sales of SB would shoot through the roof. For more info check out the Blitz SB forum.
Yes I wanted a new Platoon level series (well it would have been nice) I also want to see some enhancements to SB. PzC constantly gets upgraded and yet SB has had one patch in two years. If the game was perfect then thats OK but it needs to be expanded just like PzC is.
Ive played CM, SPWAW and the campaign system. I prefer SB over them. I prefer the overall feel of SB and funny enough the interface and 2D graphics.
HOWEVER when Combat Leader or Lock N Load PC game or even SNiper Ambush sees the light of day then SB may lose my No 1 spot. If that happens to me then it most likely will happen to others. SB is a niche within a niche and it cant afford to lose its core fan base. The thing is with a few enhancements the game might end up being very very hard to beat.
Finally POA 2 WW2 does sound amazing. However like you say PoA has so many bugs it doesnt bode well for the next game. If it wasnt for that I'd be excited about it.
Here are some peoples issues with SB.
"Weapon effectiveness and armour ratings need review. Combat results, particularly concerning armour seem random. You can see a 2 T34's firing between them 5 close range flank shots at a PIV with no result. Next turn the PIV turns and kills two of your T34's with 1 front shot each. Yes this may occasionally happen in reality but it happens far too often in SqB. The results seem well just too random. 5 turns you hit nothing and then in 1 or 2 turns you can do no wrong.
The Indirect and direct fire weapons need review. Indirect fire seems to have no weight at all. Fire and fire those motars, to what purpose, when 95% of the time there are no results. In one game as a lark I fired all my motars all the time at one unit in trees. No result. "
and
"I'm not much of a SB player, but one thing that has turned me off is the high level of abstraction in the engine. The lack of discrete ammunition tracking is the worst part of the game, but there are other areas where the game engine is too "lumpy" in its calculations. When I go to the squad level I expect more detail, not less. SB has always seemed to me like a misconceived port of a larger-scale engine."
and
"I loved ASL because of the details. I’ve spent 100’s of hours studying that dam manual with sheer delight and still pick it up now and again today. I also have all the SqB titles but this game will die in the wind because there isn’t the ‘economic’ interest in getting the thing right. The powers that be should just let us players have the codes and sit back and see how many games sell after all the issues have been worked out. That includes map editors. Gads the literature is full of small arms conflicts under specific conditions that would be most excellent to reproduce in game form."
I also belive there is a problem with weapon effectiveness. Yes the way SB works it adds all those uncertainties. However sometimes it goes to far. I like some uncertainties but if several 60mm mortars are firing into hexes with trees some casualties must happen. This isnt always the case.
Ammo tracking isnt a big one for me as that is covered in weapon effectiveness. However the decrease in effectiveness is a bit harsh.
The great campaign system by Marc Bellizi is something that definatly should be added. What a game we will have then.
None of the above need a major engine change (though the campaign system would take some work). All of them would make SB an even better game.
Joao Lima
12 May 05, 08:34
I like some uncertainties but if several 60mm mortars are firing into hexes with trees some casualties must happen. This isnt always the case.
On a recent game of mine I fired 2 PzSchrek and 1 PzFaust , at a Wolverine and none of them amanged to score a hit, which I found a little bit to far from reality. specially because I was shooting from behind the thing.
I personally think that the SB games are 70% right , with the extra 30% they could be just the thing, but somehow there does not seem to be a strong evolution from tittle to tittle , there are the obvious differences dictated by the period or conflict in question but nothing more.
Norad:
ON the TS series your are recomending to me (I think) - I was in on that one with Charlie Kibler and Bob MacNamara and John Tiller from the original EAST FRONT right up to RISING SUN. I wrote every Tutorial for those games, I proof read every manual after the first one and provided extensive comments to Kibler. And I created by hand the index that appeared in the back of the manual. :)
... my much shot is even in the art work.
Great Series - and it sure has had a long life. But once Charlie and the guys went one way and Tiller went another, well, I figured I would stay with the one making the new games as I enjoy that most.
Glenn
Yes I know. I am playing the tutorial for Westfront now, just for kicks. "No Time for Training!" I think one of the leaders name is Saunders...lol. :laugh: I agree with you that it IS a great series.
I was actually recommending it to Wodin...but that's OK. :)
Glenn Saunders
12 May 05, 11:28
Norad:
> I think one of the leaders name is Saunders...lol.
Ya - we had a lot of fun making that one. Everyone's real pictures are in there too except Kibler (I think he was the photo hold out). The Rising Sun Tutorial features a pile of the Beta testers too.
Wodin's lengthy SB Post - all I can recommend is to send this stuff to HPS Support and let them deal with it.
I guess we are hijaking the forum for WWIE: TFB right now - maybe a separate thread for your Squad Battle issues is a better way for folks to find the info they want to read. Up to you of course.
Glenn
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