View Full Version : Dvorak says the gaming industry is headed toward implosion
Don Maddox
01 May 05, 14:42
John Dvorak of PC Mag is predicting that the game industry is soon going to implode (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1784975,00.asp)due to a complete lack of innovation and over-reliance on graphics and resolution. His basic complaint is that there are only a few basic types of games and that most of these games have changed little over the last ten years.
What do you think?
Blackcloud6
01 May 05, 15:42
But once all the gamers realize that ASL is the greatest, all others are doomed! :devious:
Isn't dvorak the name of the computer in splintec ell chaos theory? Hmm....suspicious.
Full Monty
01 May 05, 19:47
Didn't someone point out that there are only seven basic plots for any play or book :laugh:
This particular paragraph amused me
The categories are shooters, puzzles and mazes, adventure games, sports games, and simulations. That's it. Most of today's hottest games are combinations of two or three of these categories, with a storyline added to keep the players from being bored stiff.
Which is a bit like saying all movies are either comedies, thrillers, horrors, melodramas or sci-fi ..... or a combination of two or three of these. Sounds like a 'grumpy old man' to me :laugh:
Don Maddox
01 May 05, 20:12
Which is a bit like saying all movies are either comedies, thrillers, horrors, melodramas or sci-fi ..... or a combination of two or three of these. Sounds like a 'grumpy old man' to me
That's almost exactly what I thought, Kevin. The man doesn't sound like he has ever played any games, so in what way is he qualified to predict the future of the industry? He also seems to be talking more about "video games" like Xbox and Playstation rather than PC games. PC games are a whole other world apart in my opinion as I can't stand console games.
The Purist
01 May 05, 20:48
I suppose I tend to shy away from most computer games because they simply lack playability. I've wargamed for years (1973?) and have yet to find a game that can't be cracked within a week or two. First person "shoot 'em ups" are boring as hell and do not offer anything more the carpal(?) tunnel syndrome. So-called 'strategy' games (Age of Empires) have nothing to do with strategy and are not suited to tactics,...more like a fancy arcade game.
Simulations, however, hold some hope but until the AI progresses a few light years computer games are destined for a few weeks of interest before being mastered and then discarded.
As and example I offer up Rome Total War, great fun but within days of beginning play I had alreday figured out how to beat the AI tactics on the battlefield. The AIs strategy was non-existant. Its 210BC and I stand ready to sweep away the Julii and Scipii, probably before 200 BC.
Patrocles
01 May 05, 21:21
John Dvorak of PC Mag is predicting that the game industry is soon going to implode (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1784975,00.asp)due to a complete lack of innovation and over-reliance on graphics and resolution. His basic complaint is that there are only a few basic types of games and that most of these games have changed little over the last ten years.
What do you think?
I agree with the statement about lack of innovation in PC gaming by the main producers. We are also seeing a lot of consolidation and buying up of publishing rights (baseball, football, nascar, etc) going to the big companies. This will also stifle competition.
I don't think the industry will implode...it will just be very boring to play their games. Hopefully, this might inspire more "cottage-industry" folks (battlefront for instance) to produce and/or publish innovate and challenging games.
The Purist, yeah, the AI in games are quite awful. You need to take computer gaming to its next level and start playing against human opponents (assuming you have an internet connection).
Ivan Rapkinov
01 May 05, 22:14
I think with the fall of the Iron curtain, we're going to get more game games from Eastern Europe, which, by simple education standards and geography and going to be very different than the run of the mill US-centric games that dominate the market.
I think as India and China both get settles into an IT progressive development cycle, we'll start to see more and more games come from their, with their own eccentricities native to their development region.
For example look at companies like MistLand in Russia - with ALFA-Anti Terror; this is subject that most Russians would have at least been exposed to through their media and the fighting in Chechnya - and it has nothing to do with westerners whatsoever.
I think the US games industry is stagnating and and starting to reinvent the wheel for every second game that comes out, but I think the industry as a whole has exciting times ahead and the globalisation factor comes into play :)
Don Maddox
01 May 05, 22:35
I suppose I tend to shy away from most computer games because they simply lack playability. Gerry, I find your characterization puzzling. Not many people on this forum play the computer, they wargame against other people just as you do in ASL. If you want to compare playing ASL to playing the AI in a computer game like Rome Total War, then it is probably fair to compare the AI in Rome Total War to the solitaire module for ASL. Now that may be a fair comparison. Human to human computer play is just as challenging and exciting as human to human boardgaming. Although both types have their strengths and weaknesses, it is somewhat unfair to compare them as you attempted to do.
Let's see you take a week and "figure it out" playing another human with TacOps, TOAW, or DA. :smoke:
Back to the original question.
I guess I totally disagree with Dvorak on this issue. There are good games on the market and there are bad ones. The consumer will sort it all out in the end and the market will respond to market demand just like any other. There is lots of innovation and great strides being made with both AI and other features. Don't think so? Play a game from 1995! It doesn't take long to see how terrible the pathfinding and AI is. And AI is a hugely complicated issue that the best minds in the world have trouble putting into computer code for a relatively simple game like chess.
I tend to agree as I see it the computer gaming industry has two major problems. The first is releasing scripted games that are good for one or two playings then it gets uninstalled and put into the "well that was a good game pile. An example of this is cdv's "Blitzkrieg. You buy Blitzkrieg I play it once or twice uninstall it, then buy Blitzkrieg II play it once or twice then buy Blitzkrieg III...and so on. The second one is basically selling you the same game more than once. An example of this is "Wings over Vietnam" a flight sim from Third Wire. This game is almost the spitting image of Third Wire's "Strike Fighters: Project 1, these two games are almost exactly the same game. Unless the gaming industry starts addressing these issues I feel that they are going to go bust.
Don Maddox
02 May 05, 08:39
I simply find no evidence whatsoever to back up these claims. The gaming industry is one of the fastest growing industries in America and is also continuing to grow well elsewhere. I don't have a link handy, but I heard the other day that the gaming industry passed up the movie industry this year in total profit. I can't confirm this, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit.
The gaming industry is not dissimilar from Hollywood or television in many ways. I have 500+ channels on my TV and most of the time I don't like what is on 495 of them. Nevertheless, I usually do find something I like and since I can only watch one at a time that's all that matters. People have long complained about all the stuff on TV they don't like as well as all the movies they don't like. So what? Every movie and TV show is not going to please everyone, and it isn't meant to. One of the advantages of having so many channels available is that the programs can be a lot more specialized and that people have a much greater range of choices than they did just a few years ago.
Gaming is the same way. There are a ton of games on the market and you can buy as many or as few as you want. Sales continue to climb for both PC games and console games and I have seen nothing to make me believe that trend will stop. Are all of these games good? Certainly not. Did I see some bad movies this year? Sure I did, but I don't think Hollywood is going to "implode" any time soon.
There is certainly one hell of a lot more growth and innovation in the PC game market than in the boardgame market, no question of that. Board wargames haven't significantly improved or changed in 25 years and the market continues to shrink. This month's Computer Developer magazine has a report on average salaries across the PC gaming industry. The average game programmer makes between $52,000-100.000 per year. The average boardgames designer makes...
I know "why" the man said what he said.
He is right to a point.
Mind you, he has generalised in a way that normally only Les does :)
Shooters, how often can you make a shooter before they lose their newness?
RTS games, how often can you be the next company that wants to make a 3d real time WW2 game?
How many companies making operational WW2 type wargames can the industry support?
Sports games, how often can you release a title, and only offer up as new, some options based off last season?
It's not that any of the games out there are automatically no good on their own (according to the people that like the type), it's more how much redundancy can the companies making these games get past successfully?
What precisely is the fundemental difference between Battles in Normandy from Matrix Games, Normandy 44 from John Tiller, and Allied German War (soon) from Schwerepunct?
Essentially, BiN is more detailed, Normandy 44 is half the price, and Allied German War will be the entiure ETO, not just part of it.
A consumer has a choice. The can go for the chrome of BiN, indulge the wallet friendly Normandy 44, or wait a bit longer, buy AGW, and kiss good bye their need to ever buy any more operational WW2 ETO setting wargames.
All you will get out of buying BiN and derivatives, or any of the Tiller titles, is a locked in simulation of a specific battle/campaign.
Not a major flaw, unless AGW gives you in one gulp every possible battle worth playing.
Once AGW is released, will there be a point to any other company making an operational wargame for WW2 ETO?
Probably not.
Combined Arms is set to do just that though.
It's only edge, will be WEGO if you ask me.
That's a very fine edge though.
And this particular situation has been recreated throughout the industry. Each mode, setting, genre, platform has its own example of everyone doing much the same thing.
Eventually, the industry is going to have to accept, that all the fans of a mode, setting, genre, platform, already own a great product that does what the next guy is trying to sell.
Look in your kitchen. You just bought a new stove. Excellent features.
What are the chances someone can sell you another new stove?
Our games are no different. They are products. Once everyone has them, it's hard to sell more.
I own TOAW CoW. It is admittedly software that is showing some age. Still, it runs on my XP using computer just fine. With it, I can game out just about any setting/time period.
That's the wall any that would market operational wargames must climb over.
It's not enough to tell me you are releasing an operational wargame. You have to explain why I actually need it.
And there is currently no visual reason under the sun that really counts.
Apart from improved AI programming, the way ahead for wargame design, is not defacto graphics based.
Operational wargames are best made (my opinion as a long time wargamer), as emulating board games, but with the perks available to a computer program.
Thus, to me, a great operational computer wargame, looks like a mix of TOAW, BiN, AGW.
It can be used to make any battle anywhere any time. Has a great interface, and isn't restricted to just one battle.
Companies that just want to produce more of the same, likely will get to produce or or two titles, and then not having anything special to offer, will then fade away like all the rest have done.
I am only really interested in supporting companies that actually want to do more than just produce one program.
I want companies to try and be something other than just another example on a list of more of the same.
The market is fixed in size for the most part.
In the early 90s, Magic the Gathering exploded on the scene. Suddenly collectible trading card games were all the thing to make.
But the market was not really as big as Magic the Gathering card sales made it seem to be. And all the companies making rushed clones have all gone. Stores that thought you could get somewhere selling cards are no longer around.
It was a fad, a flash in the pan.
Wargaming is about making wargames for wargamers. And we are a crowd of small numbers.
Forget that reality, and you risk spending a lot of time making an expensive piece of software that simply can't make a lot of money, because there were never enough gamers to sell to such that you could make a lot of money in the first place.
Some find Tiller annoying the way he makes games.
Maybe he is simply accepted, there are only X number of wargamers.
Maybe better to sell X number of wargames to X number of wargamers on a reasonably regular basis.
Maybe AGW will be the next mega great WW2 operational fix. But maybe it will also make it so Schwerpunct can't sell any more WW2 operational titles.
The business of business is making money after all.
We can't fault em for wanting to make money.
It's just the business has to make something that is actually needed.
Gen_Electric
02 May 05, 11:23
That's just the Dvorak being Dvorak. I use to subscribe to PC Computing until they went under. He wrote a column every month, and after 7 or 8 years of him you see a pattern. He'll pick a subject, and do a doom and gloom column on it. So, if down the road somewhere; it becomes true, he can say "I told you so back when". Hey, once in a while he hits it out of the park; but after a while I just read his column's with amusement.
Well Don I do know that The PC gaming industry is taking a big time nose dive. Here in Denver you can see it in the stores that sell games. There was this MediaPlay store that back in 2000 they had rack upon rack of new PC games and a small section devoted to console games. Here in 2005 the situation has reversed itself, you have rack upon rack of console games while the PC games take maybe a couple of racks. I see the same thing in other store such as EB and Virgin. So the console games are doing well, PC games are almost dead.
Gnrl Confusion
02 May 05, 13:57
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Dvorak is experiencing what I've been going through for some time now.
Time was when I'd go to a movie just cause the coming attractions looked so great. Now I actually wait and read the reviews. Seems like there just aren't any good ones being made anymore. Everything is too predictable, too formulated, too retreaded.
And music? Eesh, don't get me started. There hasn't been anything new or innovative in thirty years, as far as I'm concerned. I used to love listening to Zachary on "WNEW" when it seemed like you could listen for hours before having to sit through a commercial, which he'd then make fun of. Now I'm listening to the local "Lite" station and liking it. They have a special 8 songs without interuption going on right now!
Or sports? Remember when the American and National Leagues only had nine teams and the NHL six? The Nationals. What the hell do we need another baseball team for?
Dvorak's doing just what my Dad did. Neglecting to see the world through his kid's eyes. What's passé to us is new and exciting to them, whether it's movies or music or those 3D playstation games that make me throw up if I play them too long.
Recently I drove my daughter and a few of her friends to their first seventh grade semi-formal. On the way there she asked me to play "her" CD (I guess the Faith Hill was making them gag). Alone and on the way home I decided to take a harder listen. "Give it a chance", I said to myself. So I did; and it still stunk, but well, maybe not as bad.
Dvorak, like me, like all of us, is just getting old. Have pity. The gaming industry will survive. Just as it was almost unfathomable to imagine computer games, the internet and PBEM back in 1955, it's just as hard to predict what the future holds. I suspect something wonderful. Instead of 3D, for instance, how about "Star Trek" type holographics? So take heart "Dirty Harry" fans.
I might add on the above post that the stores that still sell PC games all with the excption of EB don't really maintain thier PC game sections. When I went to Virgin to try to get a copy of DOOM III, well they don't have it. Well maybe LO:MAC...well no they don't have that either. Virgin used to stock the latest games, not now. MediaPlay isn't much better. I remember I went there to get a copy of Blitzkrieg, I was informed that they had already sold the one copy of the game that they had ordered and that I may have to wait a week while they ordered another copy. That's right they only ordered one single copy of the game. The PC gaming industry may not be entirly dead, but, it definitly needs life support.
Im sure many who have been playing computer games for a long time know this already.
However developers make games that will sell and unfortunately what sells is the same tried and tested forumula.
Take a look at Hollywood theve been doing this for years. They are now just making remakes as its a safe bet. Ive not seen a remake yet and have no intentions of seeing one either. I mean fancy making Th LadyKillers or Alfie again??
This should have been posted in the GI gamer forum. As it has very little to do with wargaming. We are a niche market wo on awhole buy from HPS, Shrapnel,Matrix and other indy developers. AT least two of thos ementioned have a bright and long term future selling solely on the internet.
Funny enough the PC has far more variety of games than the consoles do. They are mainly for your FPS, Fighting and racing games.
The PC will become the tool of the niche gamer. The gamer who likes the indy side of games rather than the mainstream. You have niche in every form of entertainment. Films, Music, Art the same will apply to gaming.
Consoles = Kylie Minouge or chart music.
PC = Group 1850 or Captian Beefheart.
Full Monty
02 May 05, 17:10
Consoles = Kylie Minouge or chart music.
PC = Group 1850 or Captian Beefheart.
:laugh:
Shooters, how often can you make a shooter before they lose their newness?
They've been making 'crime thrillers' since the dawn of the 'Cinema Age' and I don't see 'em stopping. There's always some twist they can put in to make them fresh again. Some with 'Shooters'! Plus some of us enjoy a good session of mindless blasting (not saying 'Shooters' only involve 'mindless blasting' ;) ), the prettier and more realistic the better :devil:
Don Maddox
02 May 05, 20:06
I might add on the above post that the stores that still sell PC games all with the excption of EB don't really maintain thier PC game sections. When I went to Virgin to try to get a copy of DOOM III, well they don't have it.
GameStop just bought EB Games so expect that trend to continue. You are correct: you don't see PC games at retailers like EB as often as you used to. What does that mean? Not much. It means that, unlike console gamers (mostly kids) who get their games at "game stores," PC gamers have turned to buying their products at computers stores (CompUSA, Best Buy, etc) or online.
Total sales for 2004 are higher for PC games than for 2003.
The Purist
02 May 05, 21:35
Gerry, I find your characterization puzzling. Not many people on this forum play the computer, they wargame against other people just as you do in ASL.
Don, I have no doubt that human v human computer games are far more challenging. Full Monty and I hammer away at each other in CM and it is far more challenging than simply walking all over the AI. But, and its a big but, I do not always have time to set up a PbEM game to play another 'real' person or have the time to play 'live' at game spy or other host sites. This only leaves the AI and this is where I quickly lose interest.
Between books, real life and table top games (er, read as ASL),... and advancing years,... time is short. Is the industry about to implode? I don't think so but I think there will a major change in what is offered to the upcoming youngsters.
Don Maddox
02 May 05, 22:32
Don, I have no doubt that human v human computer games are far more challenging. Full Monty and I hammer away at each other in CM and it is far more challenging than simply walking all over the AI. But, and its a big but, I do not always have time to set up a PbEM game to play another 'real' person or have the time to play 'live' at game spy or other host sites. This only leaves the AI and this is where I quickly lose interest.
Okay, fine. But in what way is that different than the difficulty in finding a face-to-face opponent? If I understand you correctly, you're saying it is more trouble and more difficult to find a PBEM opponent and save a game than it is to find a face-to-face opponent, meet somewhere, and play? I like playing ASL face-to-face too, but that argument doesn't make much sense to me. It sounds to me like what you are really saying is that you just prefer boardgames for your own reasons. If so, there is nothing at all wrong with that! But it's also fair to say that the boardgame industry really has no effect whatsoever of the modern day PC games industry. Apples and oranges.
John Dvorak of PC Mag is predicting that the game industry is soon going to implode (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1784975,00.asp)due to a complete lack of innovation and over-reliance on graphics and resolution. His basic complaint is that there are only a few basic types of games and that most of these games have changed little over the last ten years.
What do you think?
I don't know if it is going to implode, as there seem to be many people
who don't care about diversity and innovation in games and only want more
chrome.
I agree though that there has been little innovation in the past ten
years. Someone in another thread was talking about all the awesome games
out right now, and was listing off a bunch of titles that for the most part
seem to be more of the same as what came before them except with better,
graphics and sound. I mean are the driving games today, really that
innovative over the original test drive from Accolade? There isn't much
room for innovation in a car driving game. The only title listed that I
thought was somewhat innovative was Combat Mission, with the WEGO system.
The main problem is publishers are not willing to take a risk, especially
with all the money that goes into developing todays games due to the cost
of adding all that chrome that people want. While a title may be innovative
it might not be well received, and the publisher doesn't make a decent ROI.
So unless your name is Side Meier, or Will Wright odds are some quirky
design you come up with will not be picked up by a publisher. Heck, Will
Wright had to fight to get The Sims published after everything he had
already done prior to that.
Graphics and sound are not innovation, they are a way to convey information
to the user. I wholeheartedly agree with Chris Crawford on that point.
While I enjoy chrome as much as the next guy, I don't want it at the
expense of a better game design.
For anyone in the Chicago area or travelling there in the near future
you can see a wonderful exhibit that at the Museum of Science and Industry
that will illustrate that there really hasn't been much innovation in
games. They have an exhibit called 'Game On' that goes through the history
of videogames. They have everything there from the original Spacewar on
a PDP-1 (didn't appear to be running, but the PDP-1 was there), through
todays games. Many of the games are playable. They have games for all sorts
of platforms as well.
Full Monty
03 May 05, 15:27
Don, I have no doubt that human v human computer games are far more challenging. Full Monty and I hammer away at each other in CM and it is far more challenging than simply walking all over the AI. But, and its a big but, I do not always have time to set up a PbEM game to play another 'real' person or have the time to play 'live' at game spy or other host sites. This only leaves the AI and this is where I quickly lose interest.
Between books, real life and table top games (er, read as ASL),... and advancing years,... time is short. Is the industry about to implode? I don't think so but I think there will a major change in what is offered to the upcoming youngsters.
In a round about way I think you've hit the main problem with modern video gaming. Graphics/physics developments have outstripped the evolution of AI routines. I see reviews/read letters praising games for their multi-player content whilst noting the poor quality of the solo side of the game. Developers often compensate for the ineptitude of their AI by making sections of their game very difficult. Often the only way through is by relentless trial and error (unless you have access to a walkthrough or the cheat code) which is very off-putting as well as making the gaming experience very unbalanced. This can only put off 'newbies' and stifle the development of gaming communities.
Eventually, the industry is going to have to accept, that all the fans of a mode, setting, genre, platform, already own a great product that does what the next guy is trying to sell.
Or do it better or do it differently. Or, using TacOps as an example, keep a product working after it is broken by the release of a new Macintosh or Windows OS. Do you think that the top 100 software applications do not secretly love it when Apple/Microsoft release a new OS that breaks their products and causes computer users to have to buy new versions while shifting the blame briefly to Apple/Microsoft?
Look in your kitchen. You just bought a new stove. Excellent features.
What are the chances someone can sell you another new stove? Our games are no different. They are products. Once everyone has them, it's hard to sell more.
Apples and oranges. A stove is a major investment at $500 to $1000. For most people (though not all) it takes more than a minor new feature, style, or color change to move them to replace a still functional major applicance. Minor and cheaper household items get replaced all the time for trivial reasons - except in households whose paton/matron still has their grandfather's buggywhip in the umbrella stand just in case the horse comes back.
It's not enough to tell me you are releasing an operational wargame. You have to explain why I actually need it.
Or a business can choose to ignore you and sell to the less persnickety folks who make up the majority of game consumers in any niche.
It's just the business has to make something that is actually needed.
Nope. A business only has to make something that is wanted.
Major H, businesses that make it a policy to ignore too much end up with egg on their faces for one.
Want and or need, isn't it possible you made that comment just to be contentiuous?
A brand new stove is indeed a major purchase.
A brand new computer costs about as much.
So say you make this snazzy game, or one YOU call snazzy.
Say I tell you my current computer runs games just fine, and I am not interested in an upgrade just to play YOUR game.
What do you do, if the next guy realises a lot more older computers exist than newer ones? What do you do if the next guy decides "hey, why not take and make a great game, that runs on existing hardware, and steal all the customer base from you and your fancy schmancy game that requires on top of the game price a cleverly hidden need for new hardware purchases".
And because I know you love me dearly so (your previous comments come to haunt you), why pay for more of the same when it is not really really really required to pay for it at all. Hmmm.
The software industry better wake up and stop thinking it's so clever. It isn't.
For instance, who cares if EB stocks PC or not. Who cares who just ate EB. It makes it sound like PC games are dependent on just that one outlet.
Who cares if EB becomes known as a purveyor of console only entertainment.
Snide remarks Major H, that one customer is not important, is a slippery slope. And you don't want to ride it.
Know what an Edsel is by any chance. Good lesson to be learned there.
The Purist
03 May 05, 18:50
It sounds to me like what you are really saying is that you just prefer boardgames for your own reasons. If so, there is nothing at all wrong with that! But it's also fair to say that the boardgame industry really has no effect whatsoever of the modern day PC games industry. Apples and oranges.
Sorry, Don, I didn't mean to compare the two industries, they most certainly are two different animals. Your right though, I prefer the board games to 'puter games. The artwork, colour and texture of a table top game far exceed any computer games I've seen thus far (that is just my opinion of course), to say nothing about a ftf opponent and cold beer.
I do hold out hope that one day someone will design a good 'strategic WWII' game that won't be bastardized by giving the Germans the bomb or the Japanese the ability to invade Washington DC (if you understand my meaning). Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (some 15 years ago) had great promise. An updated expanded version of that would be worth a try,...as long as they don't get stupid with 'variations' or falling into the 'real time' trap.
In a round about way I think you've hit the main problem with modern video gaming. Graphics/physics developments have outstripped the evolution of AI routines
Absolutely, Kevin. In the constant race to grab the attention of the electronic generation, developers have gone chrome crazy at the expense of giving depth to their products. I would gladly sacrifice flashy graphics in order to allow more memory to be used by the computer to actually think. I'll qualify that by admitting that I have no idea (zero) what a modern computer is capable of doing in thought 'processing' department.
So say you make this snazzy game, or one YOU call snazzy. Say I tell you my current computer runs games just fine, and I am not interested in an upgrade just to play YOUR game.
If I were to decide to produce a game with cutting edge graphics and sounds then I would just give you a cheerful goodbye wave while thinking "don't let the door hit you on the way out".
What do you do, if the next guy realises a lot more older computers exist than newer ones? What do you do if the next guy decides "hey, why not take and make a great game, that runs on existing hardware, and steal all the customer base from you and your fancy schmancy game that requires on top of the game price a cleverly hidden need for new hardware purchases".
Who are you talking to? To the best of my knowledge my game (TacOps4) still works adequately on ten year old computers runnning Windows95. I don't bother to test on W95 anymore but I have no reports of problems. That being said, I have intentionally abandoned DOS users and Windows 3.x users. If somebody out there thinks there is a gold mine of fifteen year old DOS and W3.x computers out there worth mining then I wish him the best of luck.
... why pay for more of the same when it is not really really really required to pay for it at all. Hmmm.
Is there no end to your imaginative justifications for stealing?
Don Maddox
04 May 05, 00:01
Absolutely, Kevin. In the constant race to grab the attention of the electronic generation, developers have gone chrome crazy at the expense of giving depth to their products.
That's a little bit of an unfair characterization. Most games are not wargames, they're flight sims, shooters, RPGs, etc. These games are story-driven and graphics are a very legitimate and important part of helping to immerse the player into the story's environment. Wargamers can sniff and disimiss other games as the "twitch crowd" all they want, but there are some truly excellent games of other types on the market that have production values even the very best wargames can't approach (give MajorH a 20-million dollar budget and see what he comes up with!).
The human body has five senses: smell, touch, sight, sound, and taste. When a human being and a computer share information they do not use touch (to any great extent), taste, or smell. Most games (particularly wargames) do not use sound as a gamplay element, they use it merely to enhance the experience. That leaves sight as the single most important element of the equation. Small wonder that graphics get so much more attention than other elements; it's the primary method the player gets information about what is happening inside the software.
There is also one other reason graphics get more attention: because they can. For all their massive complexity, graphics can in the end be reduced to a fairly straightforward element that can be programmed and packaged. AI is a different story. Programming a truly "smart" AI is horrendously difficult even in a very limited game like chess. Even the big game development houses like Microsoft's Atomic Games have great difficulty creating a competent AI opponent in a relatively simplistic RTS title. You could easily spend millions of dollars programming an AI opponent for a game like Panzer Campaigns and still not improve it all that much (John Tiller said that). In short, money put toward a great graphics engine will be money well spent. Putting that same money toward AI instead of putting it towards graphics would be a death sentence for most games, and very likely would not produce the kind of opponent many wargamers seem to want.
...give MajorH a 20-million dollar budget and see what he comes up with!
I would come up with a new identity and a condo in Hawaii. :cool:
Eric Weider
04 May 05, 10:08
My own two cents is that I never cease to be AMAZED at the innovation and quality in the game industry...whether you are into board games, computer games or shooters there is something for everyone.
I was a serious wargamer in the Avalon Hill, SPI, Victory Games golden era and I am just as impressed with many of the board games being put out by GMT and many others today.
In the computer world there are so many great wargames out there that I am amazed that I haven't retired from all aspects of life so that I could play them full-time! :cheeky:
Ok the last word on it, and you can just suck it up I suppose Major H.
A. I wouldn't want one of YOUR games, TacOps4 included, now if you begged. Frankly your "screw you Les specifically" attitude is not at all professional.
B. You can imply I am a thief to your hearts content (and anyone on staff getting in a snit over this post should take note, I have already reported one individual for outright slander of my character, and I have not recieved any reply to that report either I should add)
Clearly you have no clue how to discuss the matter without insulting me.
So clearly you can just suffer if you think this post is personal and out of bounds.
Seeing as you DO enjoy the thinly disguised insults, you will understand (of if you can't understand just deal with it, or if that too is not possible, to bloody bad) when I point out to anyone that ever asks, where they can find your damn game should they wish to have it, and screw you, an offensive twerp, out of your hard earned cash.
Yeah interpret that to your hearts content.
I won't actually be the one responsible of course, those other individuals will have to go download it themselves.
I will just let them know where it is (that by the way is legal).
And it IS out there eh.
Of course it is. They all are.
I wonder how much money you have already NOT received from all the previous downloads?
But your too dense to wrap your head around that little gem of a detail ain't you.
Oh well, it's just your game eh. Not like it's worth much.
Or is it possible my one only opinion might actually matter to someone?
The biggest threat today isn't console games.
The biggest threat to your software is the hardware that makes it possible to just got and take it.
EB Games, Gamestop, you might not realise it people, but the only thing you need an EB games for, is a copy of the game manual and a pretty box.
Today, you can get all your games on a newsgroup or P2P network.
All of them. The good ones, the utter garbage, the old as hell and the game that was just released yesterday.
And when you all collectively wake up and accept it, and deal with it, and think up a way to fix it, you might have a chance in hell of seeing some profit from your games.
Right now Major H's smug behaviour and "oh I don't need Les" approach, is driving nails into your hobbies coffin.
Stop prattling on about where this amount of money was made or that amount of money was made, and start reconing where this amount of money was LOST or that amount of money was NOT made.
How long do you think it would take a person with broadband access and a newsgroup operating at 300k a second speeds with unrestricted bandwidth usage, to download EVERY LAST GAME worth mentioning?
I think you will want to find out.
You can run away from the topic, ignore it and hope it goes away. You can ban users that mention the topic, or delete any mention of the topic. But at the end of the day, an atypical game takes almost no effort to find, certainly no effort to download, no effort to crack, no effort to install.
What are you going to do about it at the end of the day?
There appear to be more laws protecting the private citizen's rights to surf the web without being spyed on than there are laws to protect your software from being stolen.
Does that make you feel good?
Does it not annoy you, that right now, numerous sites exist to direct people right to your game. And all they need do is make it clear, it is "illegal" to download and or share copyprotected software. That all they require, is an admonishment if illegal activities.
Wouldn't it be more logical to think up clever ways to out do those options? Wouldn't it be the smart thing to use their own best tricks against them?
Oh of course not, Les is crazy, none of any of what he says is really a problem in the first place.
What does he know really?
Nice thing about that belief though. If I am truely nuts, and none of what I say is actually the case, then none of my post is in violation of any forum guidelines eh. I can't be held accountable for discussing fiction can I?
No your games are safe. No one would actually wish you harm. It would be a mean thing to do after all. You worked hard on those games. Slaved over them so wargamers could enjoy them.
Go back to sleep, all is ok.
John Dvorak of PC Mag is predicting that the game industry is soon going to implode (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1784975,00.asp)due to a complete lack of innovation and over-reliance on graphics and resolution. His basic complaint is that there are only a few basic types of games and that most of these games have changed little over the last ten years.
What do you think?
I somehow missed this thread before. I agree with the impression that Dvorak just picks a topic and writes a "doom and gloom" column about it. I always read his column when I got the magazine, but never really bought into most of what he said.
But regardless this has plenty of precedence... *checks the film and music industries* Nope. Lack of innovation keeps them going.
I wouldn't want one of YOUR games, TacOps4 included, now if you begged. Frankly your "screw you Les specifically" attitude is not at all professional.
I never figured you for a potential TacOps customer anyway based on your past postings of likes and dislikes. You seem to equate being marginalized as a minority viewpoint with being insulted. It isn't an insult, it is just business.
>You can imply I am a thief to your hearts content (and anyone on staff
>getting in a snit over this post should take note, I have already reported
>one individual for outright slander of my character, and I have not
>recieved any reply to that report either I should add)
My interpretation of your past postings is that you have stated that you steal software and that you think that it is OK to do so if the nature of a game, or its sales channel, or its asking price does not suit a person's preferences. If you have in fact not stolen software and if you do not support the stealing of software then I suggest that you reread and work on your prose a bit because whatever the heck you have been talking about has gotten totally lost. Perhaps English is not your primary language - that can often lead to misunderstandings.
>Seeing as you DO enjoy the thinly disguised insults, you will understand
>(of if you can't understand just deal with it, or if that too is not
>possible, to bloody bad) when I point out to anyone that ever asks, where
>they can find your damn game should they wish to have it, and screw you,
>an offensive twerp, out of your hard earned cash.
>Yeah interpret that to your hearts content.
There is no other way to interpret that paragraph except as supporting software theft.
>I won't actually be the one responsible of course, those other individuals
>will have to go download it themselves.
>I will just let them know where it is (that by the way is legal).
Ah then ... you at least admit to being an accessory to theft.
>I wonder how much money you have already NOT received from all the
>previous downloads?
I don't worry about it. I figure if Microsoft can't make much of a dent in piracy then it would be a super waste of my time and energy to be overly concerned about it. I don't even copy protect my products beyond including a simple copyright statement.
>Or is it possible my one only opinion might actually matter to someone?
Your opinion on this particular subject does not matter to me because I don't think that your views are shared by the majority of the members of my target market.
>The biggest threat to your software is the hardware that makes it possible
>to just got and take it.
>EB Games, Gamestop, you might not realise it people, but the only thing
>you need an EB games for, is a copy of the game manual and a pretty box.
>Today, you can get all your games on a newsgroup or P2P network.
>All of them. The good ones, the utter garbage, the old as hell and the
>game that was just released yesterday.
>And when you all collectively wake up and accept it, and deal with it, and
>think up a way to fix it, you might have a chance in hell of seeing some
>profit from your games.
How about proposing a solution. Oh and by the way I make an adequate profit from what I do and the way that I do it. A business can not make everybody happy and stay in business - particularly when it comes to price.
>Right now Major H's smug behaviour and "oh I don't need Les" approach, is
>driving nails into your hobbies coffin.
>Stop prattling on about where this amount of money was made or that amount
>of money was made, and start reconing where this amount of money was LOST
>or that amount of money was NOT made.
Business isn't about loss, it is about profit. If pursuing a particular piece of a given market is not likely to produce ten to fifteen percent more income than the cost of the chase then that piece is not worth going after - so long as there are more worthwhile opportunities available.
>How long do you think it would take a person with broadband access and a
>newsgroup operating at 300k a second speeds with unrestricted bandwidth
>usage, to download EVERY LAST GAME worth mentioning?
>I think you will want to find out.
A person who would choose to do that is not a likely potential customer. He is annoying but otherwise irrelevant in comparison to the folks who choose to pay for what they want.
>You can run away from the topic, ignore it and hope it goes away. You can
>ban users that mention the topic, or delete any mention of the topic. But
>at the end of the day, an atypical game takes almost no effort to find,
>certainly no effort to download, no effort to crack, no effort to install.
>What are you going to do about it at the end of the day?
I am going to ignore it because there is no financial incentive in trying to market to thieves. By definition a thief is unwilling to pay for what he wants.
>There appear to be more laws protecting the private citizen's rights to
>surf the web without being spyed on than there are laws to protect your
>software from being stolen.
>Does that make you feel good?
There is adequate law in place to punish software thieves. More enforcement would be nice but it is not likely to happen given more important law enforcement priorities.
>Wouldn't it be more logical to think up clever ways to out do those
>options? Wouldn't it be the smart thing to use their own best tricks
>against them?
Such as?
>Go back to sleep, all is ok.
No, I'll go back to work supporting and satisfying the majority of my paying customers who have realistic expectations and cheerful attitudes about this hobby.
Iron Mike USMC
04 May 05, 14:15
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Dvorak is experiencing what I've been going through for some time now.
Time was when I'd go to a movie just cause the coming attractions looked so great. Now I actually wait and read the reviews. Seems like there just aren't any good ones being made anymore. Everything is too predictable, too formulated, too retreaded.
And music? Eesh, don't get me started. There hasn't been anything new or innovative in thirty years, as far as I'm concerned. I used to love listening to Zachary on "WNEW" when it seemed like you could listen for hours before having to sit through a commercial, which he'd then make fun of. Now I'm listening to the local "Lite" station and liking it. They have a special 8 songs without interuption going on right now!
Or sports? Remember when the American and National Leagues only had nine teams and the NHL six? The Nationals. What the hell do we need another baseball team for?
Dvorak's doing just what my Dad did. Neglecting to see the world through his kid's eyes. What's passé to us is new and exciting to them, whether it's movies or music or those 3D playstation games that make me throw up if I play them too long.
Recently I drove my daughter and a few of her friends to their first seventh grade semi-formal. On the way there she asked me to play "her" CD (I guess the Faith Hill was making them gag). Alone and on the way home I decided to take a harder listen. "Give it a chance", I said to myself. So I did; and it still stunk, but well, maybe not as bad.
Dvorak, like me, like all of us, is just getting old. Have pity. The gaming industry will survive. Just as it was almost unfathomable to imagine computer games, the internet and PBEM back in 1955, it's just as hard to predict what the future holds. I suspect something wonderful. Instead of 3D, for instance, how about "Star Trek" type holographics? So take heart "Dirty Harry" fans.
My kids started listening to the 'new' stuff. I introduced them to the classics: The Who, Led Zep,... Now they listen to real music. I have introduced them to Risk, to break the ice. They like it. I can play that and a lot of the older games in my sleep, and be a credible opponent. They struggle. They learn. They excel. We need to see how we can inject that cycle into gaming, to get new gamers, and holed older ones.
All the posts on this thread point to perspective, and preference. There are those who absolutely must purchase a game the day it comes out. others, like me, wait until after the rush, to make sure the hype isn't that. I have no problem being behind the curve. I don't have a lot of time to 'test' the waters, or spend my money on things I'm not sure about.
One thing I am sure of, is the internet and online play have been the catalysts to bring me back into the fold. I hadn't played any serious games in about 15 years. No ready opponents, and lousy AI. Through this forum I have found opponents, and learned much about what the good games are. This is still the frontier in gaming: people. As long as we are still interested in playing games, companies will produce them, whether they be huge corporations, or cottage shops.
Really good AI won't likely come from the gaming industry. Some grad student will make a breakthrough, and it will trickle down. Don, I believe you are right, give me a rich and lush environemnt to get blasted away in, and I'll be happy. Immersion is important. Not as important as a good opponent, though.
===
Short hijack.
I remember Zachary. And Allison Steele, Jonathan Schwartz, and others. I grew up in the staion. My dad did news for them, Ed Brown.
===
Back to our show.
Secret Agent
04 May 05, 14:29
Besides, MajorH would probably not return any of my emails or answer any of my posts if he knew that I had downloaded it illegally (I bought it off Battlefront, and have the receipt to prove it). And the game is a lot less than most out there!
Don Maddox
04 May 05, 14:30
Sorry, Don, I didn't mean to compare the two industries, they most certainly are two different animals. Your right though, I prefer the board games to 'puter games.
You don't have to be sorry about comparing them, you just have to be careful which elements and exactly how they are compared. Some PC games have no counterpart to be compared to (i.e. what king of boardgame would you compare MS Flight Simulator to?), but I think is is somewhat reasonable to compare the major elements of PC wargames to board wargames. But I would add that these comparisons will not be perfect as there are elements of both that are unique. However that may be, I do think there is something to be gained for PC wargame designers by looking at the classic boardgame designs. This is a subject Jim Lunsford and I have talked about on multiple occasions and I agree with him that a developer with a working understanding of boardgames like ASL has an advantage over a developer who never played wargames at all. Now I am not implying that PC wargames should emulate boardgame design, but certain elements might depending on the type of game being designed.
Where I think PC wargames hold a decisive advantage over boardgames in the long run is their long-term potential. New boardgames are coming out all the time, but it's hard to imagine many ways these designs can be significantly improved over existing titles like ASL. On the other hand, we have only just begun to explore what PC wargames are capable of. The potential advantages of fog-of-war, much larger maps, the avility to save and continue later, PBEM capability, are just the tip of the iceberg. I really think even the best wargames currently on the market are just early attempts; we will eventually have far more capable simulations that will make what we are currently playing look like Tiddley Winks.
Gnrl Confusion
04 May 05, 14:40
===
Short hijack.
I remember Zachary. And Allison Steele, Jonathan Schwartz, and others. I grew up in the staion. My dad did news for them, Ed Brown.
===
Back to our show.
Now that's neat!
Iron Mike USMC
04 May 05, 15:04
Now that's neat!
My dad and I, and some of his colleagues have started a new site for the AM side, www.wnew1130.com. (A work in progress.)
Anyway, it was cool going into the station, mid-60s to early 70s, and visiting the DJs at work, AM and FM.
CPangracs
04 May 05, 15:13
I never figured you for a potential TacOps customer anyway based on your past postings of likes and dislikes. You seem to equate being marginalized as a minority viewpoint with being insulted. It isn't an insult, it is just business...
Excellent post MajorH! Just friggin' awesome! :thumup:
Excellent post MajorH! Just friggin' awesome! :thumup:
Coming from an *******, I fail to see how it could matter.
English is both my primary language, and I employ it quite well.
If you were to come out of your small little corner of wargaming, you might be aware I won the 2nd place ASL article contest last year.
If you weren't such a complete idiot Major H, I probably WOULD like your game. But in a market possessing numerous wargames, and a target rich environment to boot, yours is not singularly significant enough to merit my concern at not playing it.
As you are happy, and you are making money, I guess you are not in any position to worry.
But, I am glad you can at least publicly admit, your needs are what are important to you.
Please refrain in the future espousing (that's english by the way) any concern for your industry, you're only in it for you.
"How about proposing a solution the guy say" how rich. How about you pull yoiur head out of your ass first, maybe you will be better able to interpret what I have already stated.
You can obviously read, but your comprehension is in doubt.
I hope this doesn't impact your skills as a software designer.
Enjoy your complacency.
Enjoy your reputation while you still have it.
I won't be doing anything to preserve what you are trying your best to burn to the ground.
Draw any conclusions you want. Your conclusions don't count much with me any more.
"How about proposing a solution the guy say" how rich. How about you pull yoiur head out of your ass first, maybe you will be better able to interpret what I have already stated.
You can obviously read, but your comprehension is in doubt. I hope this doesn't impact your skills as a software designer.
Still waiting for your proposed solutions.
Coming from an *******, I fail to see how it could matter.
English is both my primary language, and I employ it quite well.
If you were to come out of your small little corner of wargaming, you might be aware I won the 2nd place ASL article contest last year.
If you weren't such a complete idiot Major H, I probably WOULD like your game. But in a market possessing numerous wargames, and a target rich environment to boot, yours is not singularly significant enough to merit my concern at not playing it.
As you are happy, and you are making money, I guess you are not in any position to worry.
But, I am glad you can at least publicly admit, your needs are what are important to you.
Please refrain in the future espousing (that's english by the way) any concern for your industry, you're only in it for you.
"How about proposing a solution the guy say" how rich. How about you pull yoiur head out of your ass first, maybe you will be better able to interpret what I have already stated.
You can obviously read, but your comprehension is in doubt.
I hope this doesn't impact your skills as a software designer.
Enjoy your complacency.
Enjoy your reputation while you still have it.
I won't be doing anything to preserve what you are trying your best to burn to the ground.
Draw any conclusions you want. Your conclusions don't count much with me any more.
Sounds like someone needs a nap.
Sounds like someone needs a nap.
:laugh:
Full Monty
04 May 05, 21:39
Someone needs to do something, this has got out of hand :OHNO:
Gonna jump in here for a sec.
Both of you are correct, Les and the Major that is. Concerns are concerns and business is well, business. The point of any product is to profiteer from it, and current game devs have a tendency to forget this. But agian, you two are still on the right track.
As of now, I would like both of you to take a step back, relax, and think about your next response. Yeah I know, sounds kinda strange commin' from me...but please do it, this thread is growing overly hostile.
Middle of the night here, but woke up, had a moment.
Marines, I plan to move on to something else.
I don't feel like derailing Don's topic further.
What the other two do is up to them.
As of now, I would like both of you to take a step back, relax, and think about your next response. Yeah I know, sounds kinda strange commin' from me...but please do it, this thread is growing overly hostile.
No problem. The overly hostile participant has said that he plans to leave the field so no reason for me to linger. :)
The point of any product is to profiteer from it, and current game devs have a tendency to forget this.
Was that a typo? From my perspective it is more often consumers that tend to forget that it is profit that enables developers to continue doing what they do. I am reminded at the middle of every month of my situation. That is when I receive my monthly royalty check and do my monthly business income versus expenses tally. Prior to my joining Battlefront, that monthly ritual often required a hefty balancing deposit from a credit card check and occasionally a long think session about whether it was time to add space aliens and or warrior queens with great cleavage to the TacOps data base. :)
Siberian HEAT
05 May 05, 12:37
...check and occasionally a long think session about whether it was time to add space aliens and or warrior queens with great cleavage to the TacOps data base. :)
NOW YOU'RE TALKING! Where do I sign up for that game??? :whist:
It is a somewhat interesting to consider that "Wargaming" (I'm talking about the tried and true board/PC wargaming) has seldom stooped into the "sex sells" mentality [I can't think of an example, although I bet they're out there]. Even though our hobby is 99.9% male-oriented, sex just DOESN'T sell here. In contrast, in mainstream PC gaming you see this all the time.
Of course, the other big advertising vehicle is the fascination with death...and I guess you could argue that is inherent in these games. One cancels the other perhaps.
CPangracs
05 May 05, 13:00
Coming from an *******, I fail to see how it could matter.
English is both my primary language, and I employ it quite well.
If you were to come out of your small little corner of wargaming, you might be aware I won the 2nd place ASL article contest last year.
If you weren't such a complete idiot Major H, I probably WOULD like your game. But in a market possessing numerous wargames, and a target rich environment to boot, yours is not singularly significant enough to merit my concern at not playing it.
As you are happy, and you are making money, I guess you are not in any position to worry.
But, I am glad you can at least publicly admit, your needs are what are important to you.
Please refrain in the future espousing (that's english by the way) any concern for your industry, you're only in it for you.
"How about proposing a solution the guy say" how rich. How about you pull yoiur head out of your ass first, maybe you will be better able to interpret what I have already stated.
You can obviously read, but your comprehension is in doubt.
I hope this doesn't impact your skills as a software designer.
Enjoy your complacency.
Enjoy your reputation while you still have it.
I won't be doing anything to preserve what you are trying your best to burn to the ground.
Draw any conclusions you want. Your conclusions don't count much with me any more.
I do believe Leslie just had a coniption, wot! (that's an English term!):laugh:
Wow, I had no idea this clown "won the 2nd place ASL article contest last year"! How utterly unimpressive!
I took first in clipping my toenails last night! I WIN!
Marines, Les is NOT correct in this matter beyond restating what we all know is true, and HAVE known for years. He's already stated he has no stake in the matter, so why did he continue in this thread but to antagonize people?
Oh well, he's gone anyway.
Maybe he's starting work on the NEXT ASL competition, huh?:nuts: :whist:
printshop
05 May 05, 13:27
It is a somewhat interesting to consider that "Wargaming" (I'm talking about the tried and true board/PC wargaming) has seldom stooped into the "sex sells" mentality [I can't think of an example, although I bet they're out there]. Even though our hobby is 99.9% male-oriented, sex just DOESN'T sell here. In contrast, in mainstream PC gaming you see this all the time.
Well, there's a time & place for everything. 8^)
These doom & gloom predictions seem to take a life of their own. I discount them because they're meaningless, except as a rather dubious means to sell more copy. I can only speak about PC wargames, but if they're in so much trouble why are there more available than I have time to play???
BTW MajorH, I think my legally purchased copy of TacOps is friggin' great!
Full Monty
05 May 05, 16:19
I do believe Leslie just had a coniption, wot! (that's an English term!):laugh:
A mis-spelt English term meaning 'A fit of violent emotion, such as anger or panic' which hardly fits the bill really.
Go forth with grace ;)
Was that a typo? From my perspective it is more often consumers that tend to forget that it is profit that enables developers to continue doing what they do. I am reminded at the middle of every month of my situation. That is when I receive my monthly royalty check and do my monthly business income versus expenses tally. Prior to my joining Battlefront, that monthly ritual often required a hefty balancing deposit from a credit card check and occasionally a long think session about whether it was time to add space aliens and or warrior queens with great cleavage to the TacOps data base. :)
I was speaking about the more mainstream developers out there, Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc., and not necessarily the indies like Matrix and Battlefront. Gaming as a whole is headed down a very troubling path, flash over flavor and eye candy over substance...
CPangracs
05 May 05, 16:32
A mis-spelt English term meaning 'A fit of violent emotion, such as anger or panic' which hardly fits the bill really.
Go forth with grace
you mean like mis-spelt? (remove the hyphen, son, you're bothering me!)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. misspell SYLLABICATION:mis·spell
TRANSITIVE VERB:Inflected forms: mis·spelled or mis·spelt, mis·spell·ing, mis·spells
To spell incorrectly.
I was TALKING about the "wot", but hey, I typed so fast I forgot an "n", so whatever sinks your Bismark!
CONNIPTION,...and its origin is UNKNOWN! Just like a brit,...trying to steal unknown glory!
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. conniption SYLLABICATION:con·nip·tion
Informal A fit of violent emotion, such as anger or panic. Also called conniption fit. ETYMOLOGY:Origin unknown.
Full Monty
05 May 05, 19:04
CONNIPTION,...and its origin is UNKNOWN! Just like a brit,...trying to steal unknown glory!
:devil:
CPangracs
05 May 05, 19:14
:devil:
Dangit, I was trying to get you to have a conniption! ;)
Full Monty
05 May 05, 19:19
Gaming as a whole is headed down a very troubling path, flash over flavor and eye candy over substance...
Part of the reason for this is marketing. 'Improved AI' can't be conveyed by the pretty pictures on the packaging. And people are 'blown away' by how good a game looks, head over the the G.I. Gamer section of this very forum and the thread entitled From The Makers Of The Max Payne Series.
However, as the technology reaches near photo-realism then there's an obvious limit to 'eye candy' (can't be more real than real laugh: ) so game designers will have to start paying more attention to realistic npc behaviour (is that 'emergent AI'?). I just hope wargames catch up because apart from a few notable exceptions the AI in most wargames is pretty poor too. And that's without the 'eye candy' as well!
Full Monty
05 May 05, 19:20
Dangit, I was trying to get you to have a conniption! ;)
Needs to be more subtle than that :laugh:
Don Maddox
05 May 05, 22:50
However, as the technology reaches near photo-realism then there's an obvious limit to 'eye candy' (can't be more real than real laugh: ) so game designers will have to start paying more attention to realistic npc behaviour (is that 'emergent AI'?). I just hope wargames catch up because apart from a few notable exceptions the AI in most wargames is pretty poor too. And that's without the 'eye candy' as well!
We all know the reasons why (we're a small market), but you are correct that wargames are behind other games in graphics. But beyond that, wargames have fallen at least a generation behind in virtually every area of game development. Most of the interfaces are very primitive, and most are just plain bad. Sound is more of an afterthought in most wargames instead of a well-planned gameplay element. And although AI is difficult and expensive to program, great strides have been made with gaming AI in the past 5 years. There are a whole subset of game programmers that specialize in AI, and this is a growing field that is in demand. Universities which teach AI programming have plenty of people lining up for these positions. And, of course, there are the poor graphics in today's wargames. Many wargames would not benefit at all from 3D (it would do more harm than good), but that is certainly no excuse for poor 2D graphics or a crappy interface.
Our community is small because not many people are interested in our hobby and our games. -Or- Our community is small because our games are uninteresting? It's probably fair to say our hobby will not grow significantly until our games get better. It is probably also fair to say that many of our games are "good," but when they are so obviously behind all other genres in every category it certainly doesn't do much to entice people.
I was speaking about the more mainstream developers out there, Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc., and not necessarily the indies like Matrix and Battlefront. Gaming as a whole is headed down a very troubling path, flash over flavor and eye candy over substance...
Well in that case, I am happy to join the angry mob with torch and pitchfork in hand. May the big boys, their distributors, and the brick stores that carry their products roast in Hell. :toast:
It had been my hope, that Marines asking for the matter to end, it would have been a small request. And it would have immediately ended.
But, Major H has to get in last minute jibes, and of course CPangracs doesn't care about anything that isn't important to him.
So I thought I would share this reality check moment.
Let's watch as major H does NOT make 420 bucks US before taxes and shipping and handling on May 6 2005 ( I assume that is the cost of 12 copies of your game).
Keep in mind, this is a screen shot of completely unknown persons to myself.
Keep in mind I am merely looking.
Keep in mind, I have comitted no crime in the looking.
So you can spare me your pathetic attempts at name calling.
Keep in mind I AM laughing my ass off as Major H does NOT make 420 bucks today.
I am not legally required to be sympathetic.
I wonder how much he has already not made since, and I wonder how much he will not be making in the days ahead.
Enjoy the view.
Oh and I really don't care who gets ruffled feathers over this. Nor do I care what further moronic comments follow.
The picture says all I could hope to say.
Major H, you are just one of many fools in the industry today.
You just don't get it somehow.
Along with a lot of cash in the process I might add.
I wonder if you know anyone who has your game illegally?
I wonder if any of them are members here?
You'll likely never know will you.
Secret Agent
06 May 05, 16:27
Aries, for every detractor of MajorH and TacOps, I think you will find a massive number of supporters.
Uh, actually it is a crime to knowingly facilitate someone else commiting
a crime. I believe you are confused becuase it is not a crime to point
someone to a piece of software that could be used in an illegal manner such
as software that defeats DVD encryption so you can watch DVDs on a Linux
system, which can also be used to rip the DVD. Showing someone where to
get software for free that requires a purchased license for use is no different than showing a thief the open window at the back of a store. You
are an accesory to the crime. I don't know what your beef is with Major H
or how it all started and I could really care less. You should be banned from the boards though for continuing to advocate theft of software. If you
don't like someone or their software dont use. If you think it costs too
much, buy somebody else's software. If you don't want to pay find a free,
open source alternative or better yet write your own.
Aries,
I'll say one thing for you. When you get something in that head of yours, you do a heckuva job trying to convince everyone else that you have THE answer.
Seems to me that MajorH accepts a certain amount of piracy of his excellent game as a normal cost of doing business. He seems to be making a decent living off of it in spite of the thieves. At any rate, one typically doesn't get into a niche market such as this in order to get rich. I suspect that as long as folks like us enjoy his products, and that he can turn some sort of a profit, he'll continue to provide a service to the wargaming community. This is a hobby not just for the players, but for a lot of the game designers as well. If I had the ability and was able to produce a wargame that everybody raved about, I ould do it as long as I ended up just a little in the black.
You still need a nap.
Uh, actually it is a crime to knowingly facilitate someone else commiting
a crime. I believe you are confused becuase it is not a crime to point
someone to a piece of software that could be used in an illegal manner such
as software that defeats DVD encryption so you can watch DVDs on a Linux
system, which can also be used to rip the DVD. Showing someone where to
get software for free that requires a purchased license for use is no different than showing a thief the open window at the back of a store. You
are an accesory to the crime. I don't know what your beef is with Major H
or how it all started and I could really care less. You should be banned from the boards though for continuing to advocate theft of software. If you
don't like someone or their software dont use. If you think it costs too
much, buy somebody else's software. If you don't want to pay find a free,
open source alternative or better yet write your own.
I didn't "facilitate" squat.
But I did shove it in his face that 12 persons WON'T be buying his game today.
And that is the size of it.
If you think I have done anything wrong exposing what I know to be the case, you might wish to discuss this with any reporter on the planet.
I have reported what I have seen. Nothing else.
Anyone sufficiently obtuse to not know the term "eMule" has my sympathy though, as being dangerous stupid, or ill informed, or both.
Secret Agent, the truth is obvious in the image, I see your unsubstantiated statement, to the effect his supporters are legion, and I raise you showing you exact proof, that there are people that might like his game enough to want it, but they don't qualify as "suporters".
My beef? vyshka, it's only in that Major H is a man unable to discuss the welfare of his industry, without resorting to slander.
I can assure you, his comments and the comments of a few others, have been equally meriting in banning.
Unsubstantiated accusations of crimminal activity is in my opinion slander.
I can do more than have him banned from a forum for that.
Mini-Me, the man has made it clear he is happy with the cash he is making. But it does tend to make a person wonder, would he rather not be happier with ALL the money that is his due?
The way of doing business (according to his attitude), is currently, apparently, to roll over and to just take it.
Maybe he doesn't care. But is he the only game designer that doesn't care?
Doctor Sinister
06 May 05, 18:20
Gents, we're getting some complaints about this thread heating up again. I would hate to have to close it off, but I will unless things chill out a bit. Please keep it friendly.
Thanks in advance.
Dr. S.
airBiscuit
06 May 05, 19:09
... Play a game from 1995! It doesn't take long to see how terrible the pathfinding and AI is. And AI is a hugely complicated issue that the best minds in the world have trouble putting into computer code for a relatively simple game like chess.
This is a point where the distinction should be made as to what kind of AI we are talking about here with respect to games.
1. There's the theorized Artificial Intelligence, where we could have a conversation through a machine interface and not be able to tell whether it was a person or a machine we were interacting with. Typically, this is not what game designers desire to implement or see in their games. For one thing, the issue is too complex to realize in even a laboratory environment, and secondly, a free-thinking AI takes away control from the game designer to present a story or angle, and even a learning AI risks setting up so much variability to play that it would be impossible to troubleshoot and debug before going to market. True Artificial Intelligence might happen some day in a game, but the game experience would be quite different from what we have today.
2. There's the AI that deals with the believable behaviors of 'actors' in the game world, such that creatures and people behave like you would expect...navigate staircases...find exits...exhibit rage or fear. This lends a more immersive quality to the game and heightens the experience laid out in the game world, as well as lends some satisfaction by observing action and reaction in a simulated environment. It's not really 'intelligent' behavior, but merely a very comprehensive list of reactive properties that the game actors can portray.
3. Perhaps finally, there's the AI that appears to play intelligently. It appears to strategize, and plan, and react to your moves smartly and efficiently. Since true artificial intelligence doesn't exist yet, these systems instead fall back on large sets of rules graphs and pattern matching algorithms to arrive at a decision on what its next move can be. Because of computing power, it can reassess its situation and re-plan almost continuously, and thus it makes the computer seem to think several steps ahead...think deeply. For the most part, this is an illusion. It's interesting that Don mentions chess as being a 'simple' game. This is true in part. It has a limited board, limited pieces, and limited things you can do with those pieces. However, the miracle of combinations causes this game to explode with strategic complexity, where many avenues to victory are possible, and many options lie for the opponent to counter such avenues. It's this last category of AI that chess machines are developed in, and great effort has gone into making the algorithms actually think more deeply and strategize. In this way, researchers are trying to incrementally tap into the secrets of category 1 of AI...true thought processes and the patterns that lead to the expression of intelligence.
For wargames, we are generally concerned with Category 3 of AI, but having good Category 2 AI can also be important when the human condition of warfare is to be simulated. An example of this is Combat Mission. It uses two different AI systems for its actors. The TacAI, which would be Category 2 in my list, and the StratAI (if I remember correctly), which is of the category 3 variety.
For games like FPS's and even most RTS's, there seems to be more emphasis on Category 2, the behaviors of units, and Category 3 tends to go by the wayside, taking shortcuts in the interest of keeping the game moving.
airBiscuit
06 May 05, 19:32
I agree though that there has been little innovation in the past ten
years. Someone in another thread was talking about all the awesome games
out right now, and was listing off a bunch of titles that for the most part
seem to be more of the same as what came before them except with better,
graphics and sound. I mean are the driving games today, really that
innovative over the original test drive from Accolade? There isn't much
room for innovation in a car driving game.
Well, let's see, we have things like:
Better game physics, road and tire surface simulation
Detailed damage modeling
Options for component modifications, tire type, gear ratios, paint job
Larger number of cars with goals to unlock more
Larger variation in tracks and environments
Multiplayer over network or split screen
Voice over IP
Rocket boosts, induced traffic collisions, larger tracks and maps, jump ramps, flags
Rock music while you play
Quite a far cry from Test Drive on the ol' C-64.
The only title listed that I thought was somewhat innovative was Combat Mission, with the WEGO system.
WEGO and waypoints in of themselves aren't very innovative concepts, and were present in games before Combat Mission. Waypoints were used in the Mechwarrior series and Rainbow Six series. WEGO was present in 4X games like Masters of Orion. Combat Mission broke some ground in that the game developer brought many aspects of tabletop wargaming to the computer and enabled the double-blind plotted orders situation that is so hard to do with micro-armor. As well, the non-phased turns meant that your commands stuck for an entire nail-biting minute. Combat Mission was the computer game that micro-armor fans had been waiting for because it incorporated so many of the right elements, WEGO being among them.
The main problem is publishers are not willing to take a risk, especially
with all the money that goes into developing todays games due to the cost
of adding all that chrome that people want. While a title may be innovative
it might not be well received, and the publisher doesn't make a decent ROI.
You do make a good point there and I think that is one of the big problems. I think the reason for the risk aversion is that there is so much that is invested in making a competitive game title these days. It's a never-ending cycle of one-upmanship and rarely does a small, elegant, innovative game sweep this aside.
Graphics and sound are not innovation, they are a way to convey information
to the user. I wholeheartedly agree with Chris Crawford on that point.
While I enjoy chrome as much as the next guy, I don't want it at the
expense of a better game design.
I think that enhanced experiences through better graphics and sound do qualify as innovations, and it's experience that sells. What is bad is when game design takes a back seat to the sensory fluff, and noticeably clashes with it. Even a game that looks and sounds great doesn't get very far with gamers when there are glaring shortcomings in level design, character response, voice acting, game interfacing, and play difficulty.
I didn't "facilitate" squat.
But I did shove it in his face that 12 persons WON'T be buying his game today.
And that is the size of it.
If you think I have done anything wrong exposing what I know to be the case, you might wish to discuss this with any reporter on the planet.
I have reported what I have seen. Nothing else.
Anyone sufficiently obtuse to not know the term "eMule" has my sympathy though, as being dangerous stupid, or ill informed, or both.
Secret Agent, the truth is obvious in the image, I see your unsubstantiated statement, to the effect his supporters are legion, and I raise you showing you exact proof, that there are people that might like his game enough to want it, but they don't qualify as "suporters".
My beef? vyshka, it's only in that Major H is a man unable to discuss the welfare of his industry, without resorting to slander.
I can assure you, his comments and the comments of a few others, have been equally meriting in banning.
Unsubstantiated accusations of crimminal activity is in my opinion slander.
I can do more than have him banned from a forum for that.
Mini-Me, the man has made it clear he is happy with the cash he is making. But it does tend to make a person wonder, would he rather not be happier with ALL the money that is his due?
The way of doing business (according to his attitude), is currently, apparently, to roll over and to just take it.
Maybe he doesn't care. But is he the only game designer that doesn't care?
I wasnt talking about the pic of eMule I was talking about:
Seeing as you DO enjoy the thinly disguised insults, you will understand (of if you can't understand just deal with it, or if that too is not possible, to bloody bad) when I point out to anyone that ever asks, where they can find your damn game should they wish to have it, and screw you, an offensive twerp, out of your hard earned cash.
Yeah interpret that to your hearts content.
I won't actually be the one responsible of course, those other individuals will have to go download it themselves.
I will just let them know where it is (that by the way is legal).
And it IS out there eh.
Of course it is. They all are.
I wonder how much money you have already NOT received from all the previous downloads?
That looks like you are saying anyone who asks you about Tacops
will be directed to do what the people you were showing in your
pic were doing, yes?
Out of curiousity what would you like to see the industry do
with regards to p2p? There isn't really anything that can be
done to stop it. I imagine more money is lost in the industry
due to organized piracy. It almost sounds as though you are upset
that the industry isnt doing anything, but at the same time will
direct people to whichever p2p to grab up software for free.
CPangracs
06 May 05, 20:23
It had been my hope, that Marines asking for the matter to end, it would have been a small request. And it would have immediately ended.
But, Major H has to get in last minute jibes, and of course CPangracs doesn't care about anything that isn't important to him.
So I thought I would share this reality check moment.
Let's watch as major H does NOT make 420 bucks US before taxes and shipping and handling on May 6 2005 ( I assume that is the cost of 12 copies of your game).
Keep in mind, this is a screen shot of completely unknown persons to myself.
Keep in mind I am merely looking.
Keep in mind, I have comitted no crime in the looking.
So you can spare me your pathetic attempts at name calling.
Keep in mind I AM laughing my ass off as Major H does NOT make 420 bucks today.
I am not legally required to be sympathetic.
I wonder how much he has already not made since, and I wonder how much he will not be making in the days ahead.
Enjoy the view.
Oh and I really don't care who gets ruffled feathers over this. Nor do I care what further moronic comments follow.
The picture says all I could hope to say.
Major H, you are just one of many fools in the industry today.
You just don't get it somehow.
Along with a lot of cash in the process I might add.
I wonder if you know anyone who has your game illegally?
I wonder if any of them are members here?
You'll likely never know will you.
LMFAO! Leslie, the only thing you just did was prove that you have the means, the desire, and the audacity to steal software and rub lrgitimate owner of the property's nose in it.
The only description I can think of for you right now is,..."EINSTEIN"
Congratulations, EINSTEIN.:rolleyes:
Is there anyway to get this retard banned for posting a screenshot of HIMSELF stealing?
He can tapdance all he wants about what he just showed, but as far as WE should be concerned, he was doing it himself!
If that doesn't completely blow the doors off of the acceptable use policy here, no one can ban anyone else for ANYTHING, lest they be seen as biased and completely impotent.
CPangracs
06 May 05, 20:33
*miscellaneous rantings of an asshat*
Hey Aries, guess what? Many game developers do it because they LOVE it. Some of us don't have an extended desire or NEED to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of a game - we do it because we love it.
Why do YOU do it,...oops, that's right,...you can't answer BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE A COMPUTER WARGAME OF YOUR OWN AND PUBLISHED IT!
Oh, but wait,...you HAVE taken 2nd (not good enough for 1st, natch) in some "ASL something or other that mattered to about 7 people. Congratulations.
Why don't you go rant to the guy who bested you that YOU deserved to win and leave the worry about illegal downloaders such as yourself to those of us who have some kind of stake in things?
Just run along back to the boardgame of your choice (not knocking boardgames, just this sorry excuse for a wargamer, Aries), because you are out of your element with computer wargames.
By the way, is your little 2nd place essay or whatever being downloaded on eMule?
I thought not.:laugh: Probably just as many people want your work as there are registered at "Leslies Place"! Exactly one - you.:whist:
Secret Agent
06 May 05, 20:40
Probably just as many people want your work as there are registered at "Leslies Place"! Exactly one - you.:whist:
Actually, there are 21 registered users.
CPangracs
06 May 05, 20:42
Actually, there are 21 registered users.
Opps, read that wrong,...maybe I should have said "Numbers of replies to any topics in the "Guest Quarters",...NONE!!!:devil:
Secret Agent
06 May 05, 20:44
Opps, read that wrong,...maybe I should have said "Numbers of replies to any topics in the "Guest Quarters",...NONE!!!:devil:
That's because he deletes them every Sunday. :halo: (As he says in his first 'sticky' there.)
Doctor Sinister
06 May 05, 21:24
Sigh.
Thread closed, as per my previous message.
Dr. S.
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