Structured Beta - ATGM Testing

[MikeSinn]

I created a custom scenario to test ATGM functionality in the latest build (version 222). This scenario placed 8 platoons of BTR-70s in a straight North - South line and 18 M2A3 2100 meters directly to the west. All units remained stationary and fully visible throughout the test. Attached below is a screen shot showing this force deployment.

In order to eliminate as many uncontrolable variables as possible I also made the following changes. All ammo except for the M2A3's TOWs were removed and I doubled the TOW loadout for each vehicle. I also disabled FOW to allow for accurate recording of the test results. I then ran the scenario 3 times, each time, playing through Turn 5.

My test results are as follows:
Game 1:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 21, Kills = 1
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 35, Kills = 1
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 30, Kills = 2
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 21, Kills = 1
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 32, Kills = 0

Game 2:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 21, Kills = 1
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 31, Kills = 0
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 22, Kills = 0
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 32, Kills = 1
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 35, Kills = 1

Game 3:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 21, Kills = 1
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 25, Kills = 0
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 15, Kills = 2
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 25, Kills = 0
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 24, Kills = 0

Consequently it appear that while ATGMs are firing and do occasionally hit/kill something, they are currently an incrediably ineffective weapon system. I have attached a copy of the combat summary report and original scenario file for others to review and reproduce these tests.

I will forward this information to Scott later today.

Thanks,
Mike

[HercMighty]

Let us know. I agree these weapons seem to be ineffective and really should be beefed up.


Good work.

[MikeSinn]

Just to eliminate a TOW specific problem, I plan on running a couple follow-on tests using other ATGM systems. I'll run a similar scenario except swap the BTR with BMP's and the M2A3 with M113.

I should have those test results ready by tomorrow. Will let everyone know what I find.

Thanks,
Mike

[thewood]

I noticed that the refleks ATGM on the CIS 125mm gun hits. Doesn't kill anything, but I have been hitting M1A2s and Merkevas.

[MikeSinn]

I just completed another round of ATGM tests using the new 225 build. For this test, I used fewer vehicles and swapped the Bradleys for TOW equipped HMMVs. Again, I ran through the first five turns of the scenario three times. My results, however, were similar to my earlier test.

Game 1:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 0, Kills = 0
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 10, Kills = 1
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 13, Kills = 1
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 13, Kills = 1
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 7, Kills = 1

Game 2:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 0, Kills = 0
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 10, Kills = 1
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 9, Kills = 0
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 12, Kills = 0
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 6, Kills = 0

Game 3:
Turn 1: TOWs fired = 0, Kills = 0
Turn 2: TOWs fired = 12, Kills = 0
Turn 3: TOWs fired = 12, Kills = 0
Turn 4: TOWs fired = 9, Kills = 0
Turn 5: TOWs fired = 12, Kills = 0

Based on these results, I believe that ATGMs are still utterly ineffective within the game. I will forward these results and save game to Scott for his review. I really hope he concentrates on correcting this aspect of the game for the next patch.

Thanks,
Mike

[Don Maddox]

Are you using M1A2s as the target for all of these tests? If so, that is probably the single most difficult target on the battlefield to destroy due to its advanced armor system. Try replacing the targets with T55s, T72s, or M113s and see what the results are.

[thewood]

Mike stated they were BTR-80's in his first post. I just double checked on the gun-fired Refleks ATGM in the CIS 125mm and had no problems. As part of my sighting tests, I will try some ATGM teams and see if they work.

Anyone notice we sucked Don back in. There is something about this sim that makes people gluttons for punishment.

[MikeSinn]

Are you using M1A2s as the target for all of these tests? If so, that is probably the single most difficult target on the battlefield to destroy due to its advanced armor system. Try replacing the targets with T55s, T72s, or M113s and see what the results are.

Hi Don and welcome back to this forum :laugh:

In all of my ATGM testing, unarmed and stationary BTR-70s were used as targets. I ran a similar test using Spandrels and Spigots (AT-5s and AT-3s) against unarmed HMMVs with similar results. In general it appears that less than 5% - 10% of all ATGMs hit and kill their intended targets.

Thanks,
Mike

[MikeSinn]

Mike stated they were BTR-80's in his first post. I just double checked on the gun-fired Refleks ATGM in the CIS 125mm and had no problems. As part of my sighting tests, I will try some ATGM teams and see if they work.

Please let us know what your testing shows. I don't know which I would rather have happen. You reproduce my test results and confirm a core component of the game is broke, or you find ATGMs work just fine and I'm nuts :nuts:

Thanks
Mike

[WNourse]

I've got anecdotal confirmation for the Hellfire launched from a Longbow (side effect of my Air-ground testing as I missed changing one of the units in my air squadron from Longbow to A-10). Multiple launches, 0 hits before the Longbow was shot down by an HMG.

Will

[MikeSinn]

I've got anecdotal confirmation for the Hellfire launched from a Longbow (side effect of my Air-ground testing as I missed changing one of the units in my air squadron from Longbow to A-10). Multiple launches, 0 hits before the Longbow was shot down by an HMG.

Will

Your anecdotal results match a follow-on test I ran last night. I replaced the TOW equipped HMMVs with AH-64s and re-ran my ATGM test scenario. During the first 5 turns of each trial game, the Apaches fired between 6 - 9 Hellfires a turn but never scored a kill. I passed this info along to Scott as well.

I hope he can identify and fix this bug for the next patch release. ATGMs seem to be one of the last significant killer bugs left in the game.

Thanks,
Mike

[thewood]

I just ran your test scenario for the first time tonight. I have run it 5 times through just turn 2.

Results turn 1: US - 15 Tow fired, average 11 kills. Every strike is a kill, averaging 3 misses.

The only difference is that I ran hotseat to get an accurate count on kills and hits.

Edit: Side note, how can you modify an existing scenario?

Nevermind, just figured it out through trial and error!

[MikeSinn]

I just ran your test scenario for the first time tonight. I have run it 5 times through just turn 2.

Results turn 1: US - 15 Tow fired, average 11 kills. Every strike is a kill, averaging 3 misses.

Amazing, those results are darn near the exact opposite of mine. How do we begin to explain this divergence?

I assume you are using Build 225. Did you perform a clean install before upgrading to Build 225 or did you install the patch over a previous version? I upgraded over the older 222 build. What complexity level and FOW settings did you use? I had the complexity level set to "3" and FOW completely disabled (so results could be viewed). If you have a couple of minutes, could you re-run your test with the AI taking control of Player 2. I don't know why this would have any impact on the results, but is the only other variable I can think of between our two tests.

Could a couple of additional forum members run my ATGM test scenario (attached to an earlier post in this thread) and post your results? It would be great if it is I and not ATGMS that's brain-dead :cheeky:

Thanks,
Mike

[thewood]

I have full complexity and FOW. That's why I ran hotseat. I had a clean install at 215, and upgraded to 222, then 225. I'll run a new test tonight with AI on player 2.

[MikeSinn]

I have full complexity and FOW. That's why I ran hotseat. I had a clean install at 215, and upgraded to 222, then 225. I'll run a new test tonight with AI on player 2.

Thanks. If you could, also run a test or two with FOW turned off and the AI running player 2. I will run another couple of tests tonight with full FOW and in Hot-seat mode. Hopefully, doing so will allow me to recreate your success.

Thanks,
Mike

[thewood]

I ran the test through turn 2 again, 5 times. Basically the same result for turn 1 as before, 10-11 kills, 15 rounds fired. Player 1 is human, player 2 is AI, FOW 3, Complexity 3. I am not doing manual targeting or moving anything.

Edit: I added the last combat results file and save game so you can see the results. This is actually the worst results with only 9 kills from the 5 M3's that fired. Everything else was 11 or 12 kills.

One note: There ase some listings in the combat results file that give no result of the combat. I have a feeling this is the result of smoke covering the target between firing and combat resolution. This seems to throw off the results of the kill process. Depending on which units die first, you may actually be killing BTR's and they are not reported.

[MikeSinn]

SUCCESS!!!!

Sorry about shouting:halo:, but...

I was able to recreate TheWood's successful ATGM tests. The problem with ATGM accuracy seems to be directly related to the Combat Fidelity setting in the preference window. Some time ago, I changed the combat fidelity setting to 3 (default setting is 5). While game speed/performance improved dramatically, it appears that this improvement in speed came at an incredible cost to reality. Once I moved that setting back to 5, my hit/kill ratio improved to nearly 75%.

Rule of thumb. If you are seeing unusual combat results, check your preference tabs :laugh:

Thanks,
Mike

[thewood]

That is still a bug though. Fidelity to me means instead of tracking every TOW round, the game just applies a statistic of how many M3's would kill how many BTR's. Instead it looks like it is just not using some combat resolutions.

btw, congratulations. Also, I noticed the BTRs have a BMP in the composite unit. Why doesn't the AI ever fire the Saggers on the BMPs. I can manually fire them, but I've never seen the AI do it.

[MikeSinn]

I agree that the combat fidelity setting is not operating as we would expect and is quite possibly a bug. It is, however, a bug with a work-around and a primary battlefield weapon system is once again working as I would expect :laugh:

I have forwarded this discovery on to Scott and Jeff. Will let everyone know when I hear back from them.

Thanks,
Mike

[WNourse]

I wonder if this has any bearing on the Air/Ground engagement results. I'll try to test tonight

Will