View Full Version : Structured Beta: Night/Illumination
OK, I have pulled out what little hair I have remaining. I have been working on trying to get a standard test scenario set up for checking on sighting at night. I, for the life of me, can't make a scenario that runs at night. No matter how many times I set conditions, including time, moon, and temp., the scenario runs at noon...middle of day. Some one explain to me how to do this!
I set it up during the scenario creation process. I have tried setting it up to start up on turn 1, as well as letting the conditions be adjusted at the start by the user. None have worked.
Also, I am a little baffled with thermal imaging and infrared searchlights. I have tried putting smoke between two tanks with thermal imagers and they don't see each other, even at 400M. They could see each other before the smoke. How do you tell if a tank is using its infrared search light. I assume you have to be able to tell the tank to shut it off, or it would be detected, although its moot until I can get the sun to set.
I just set up a test scenario. I changed the time with no problem. I changed them in the scenario checklist under "Change Conditions/Data Tables". One thing I did find what that you also have to change the Max Sight Range which is defaulted at 10,000 meters.
After setting up the scenario, I checked the time and it was the correct time. I saved it and it saved with the new time. I did this three times at 2am, midnight and 1am with no problems.
You may try a different map to see if that would make a different? (I'm guessing)
I am concerned that thermal and infrared imaging is not working as it should. I have seen battles that seemed to shut down when smoke got mixed in.
I'll try a different map. I don't really understand how you figure out what a unit can see. If you use the sighting tool, it seesm to make no difference what the conditions are.
Why do I have to set the sighting range? Is that not changed by changing the the conditions. I also don't really understand the LOS adjustment % for spotting and targeting. I'll see if I can work through them.
I'll try a different map. I don't really understand how you figure out what a unit can see. If you use the sighting tool, it seesm to make no difference what the conditions are.
Why do I have to set the sighting range? Is that not changed by changing the the conditions. I also don't really understand the LOS adjustment % for spotting and targeting. I'll see if I can work through them.
I think these are all good questions which should be submitted to Scott. I agree, you really should not have to manually set the sighting distance if you change certain conditions. Hopefully Scott can explain how it works better for us.
Can someone submit them for me? I don't have access to my personal email account for a little while due to upgrading my home PC. One disadvantage of Scott not looking at forums is he forces his customers into the duplication of posting stuff here for all to see the issues, then having to send them to Scott. This still sticks in my craw, especially for a product as broken as POA2 was.
Can someone submit them for me? I don't have access to my personal email account for a little while due to upgrading my home PC. One disadvantage of Scott not looking at forums is he forces his customers into the duplication of posting stuff here for all to see the issues, then having to send them to Scott. This still sticks in my craw, especially for a product as broken as POA2 was.
thewood,
If you will post a copy of your test scenario, I can forward the issue to Scott.
Thanks,
Mike
It's not related to a specific scenario. Its related how to set sighting conditions in building a scenario:
- Why do I have to set the sighting range? Is that not changed by changing the the conditions?
- I also don't really understand the LOS adjustment % for spotting and targeting. I'll see if I can work through them.
- Should smoke block thermal imagers?
- How do I know if someone is using active infrared? Does it increase their sighting range at night?
These questions are from a test scenario I built. I see no need to send it along until I get these questions answered and can produce a scenario that can be a base for testing sighting.
All right, after a night of learning and testing, here is what I got:
My goal was to check night sighting by comparing the reactions and sighting abilities of US vs. CIS tanks.
The OOB was an M1A2 SEP w/ a platoon of M60 MBTs vs. 1 T-90 w/ a platoon of T-72s. The M1A2 and T-90 have thermal and the rest have passive IR only.
I am attaching some save games so you can see how I ran the test.
I place the two forces facing each other on a flat road facing each other. The T-90 and M1 were further back, but all tanks had a straight line LOS. The older tanks were 800 yards apart.
The conditions were clear at night. Illumination base seems to be randomized somewhat, but was at 3, which is pitch black.
Starting out, only the thermals could see each other. I set SOP to hold fire. I then moved the thermal-equipped tanks around to get them behind obstacles and see what happened with the older tanks. It seems the thernals work. As soon as the thermals were out of the picture, no sighting was going on.
What is interesting is that if I moved tanks arouond, the older tanks could tell a tank was there, but could not get a sighting, only a detection. I was very pleased with this result.
What was preplexing was I couldn't get anyone to fire, even at sighting levels of 5. As you can see in the last save game, I drove the T-90 right next to the M60s and got a great sighting. I manually targeted the M60, but the 90 just wouldn't fire. I tried letting the AI target and making adjustments to the SOP, but no joy.
While I'm happy with the sighting results, I need someone to see if they can get those darn tanks to fire once sighting is established. It is a hotseat game with a blank password.
Next, if I can get units to fire, is illumination by flaming wrecks. After that I will test illumination rounds. I also plan on testing the capabilities of units equipped with active IR lights vs. units with passive IR vs. no night vision at all.
HercMighty
25 Mar 05, 16:45
The not firing has been a big complaint of mine for sometime. What is your FOW set to? I have always felt that if a unit gets shot at it will return fire, even if it cannot identify the foe it will still make a best guess and send some rounds in that direction.
Every time this gets brought up it is contributed to FOW or LOS. Both have been tweaked in patches. Though when you have two units next to each other how can they not shot at each other?
FOW is level 3, extreme
My email is still down, can someone forward my post w/ attachments to Scott?
FOW is level 3, extreme
My email is still down, can someone forward my post w/ attachments to Scott?
I am putting together an email to Scott relating to other game mechanic questions. I will add your questions and comments to it as well.
Thanks,
Mike
thanks...I am running some more tonight.
HercMighty
25 Mar 05, 22:52
FOW is level 3, extreme
For testing I would suggest running with no FOW. With such a high FOW the information you are given can be so far from the truth that it is a wonder you have any hair left!
But I am playing hotseat so I see what the results are on each side.
OK, I upgraded to 225 and now all the work I did on night and thermal imaging seems have gone for naught. It seems like since the upgrade any tank can see as if its daylight, regardless of time of day. I am am going to see if I can completely rebuild the scenario tomorrow, instaed of using the saved game from 222. A step forward, a step back.
Does anyone know what sighting randes should be for thermal, passive IR, and active IR should be at night. I actually think maybe Scott fixed something that now allows passive IR to work, but I have nothing to compare it to.
Took a step back last night and completely rebuilt the test scenario.
I now have an M1A2 with thermal imaging, an M60 with passive IR, and infantry squad with no imaging. This is against a T90 with thermal, a T72 with active IR, and an infantry squad. All are facing each other on a road just lilke the previous test.
Now, everything seems to work as expected. The M1, T90, and T72 all seem to see each other. The T72 and T90 won't engage the infantry so it seems that maybe it can't get a solid read on them. What is interesting is that the M60 with passive IR only can't see anything.
I wonder if the T72 should be easier to detect by the M60's passive IR detector. I seem to have to way to tell what was used to make a sighting, thermal, IR, or visual. I take back my frustrations, but the lesson learned is to rebuild the test scenario after each new patch.
I am having problems getting anyone to fire even giving manual firing orders. Can any of you take a look and see what I'm doing wrong. its hotseat with a blank password.
I take back my frustrations, but the lesson learned is to rebuild the test scenario after each new patch.
Ah Crap! I am just about finished rerunning my ATGM tests with the new patch. The bad news is that I am not seeing much change in ATGMs hitting/killing vehicles. Now maybe the good news is that after a rebuild of the scenario, I will see different results.
I am having problems getting anyone to fire even giving manual firing orders. Can any of you take a look and see what I'm doing wrong. its hotseat with a blank password.
Have you tried giving the AI control of one side just to see if it will fire? I will take a look at the scenario tonight and let you know what I find.
Thanks,
Mike
I just ran another test using a modeified ATGM test that Mike developed. All I did was change conditions to night. It worked great:
M3 w/ thermal could see all CIS units
BMP with active could see most US units with active IR
BTR could see nothing with passive IR
BRDM could see most US units with active IR
M106 units could see nothing
I also ran the test in daytime and found that the thermal equipped units could see a little better through smoke, but any heavy, concentrated smoke blocked all comers.
Next test will have M106 fire illumination round and see if the BTR can see.
These series of tests have made me feel a lot better. I have also started going through the database and noting errors and inconsistencies. I'll forward those to Scott as I get a big enough list.
Alright, I give up. I can't figure out how artificial illumination works. I have wrecks and illumination rounds and I have no way to tell what the illumination at a particular point on the map. I have wrecks burning, which is supposed to raise the illumination level in a hex, but can't see the result. I dropped 10 illumination rds into a hex oover a few turns and see no way to tell if its working. Another issue is that the manual states that illumination should never be less than 0. I have a illumination base of -3. A bug?
Also, I have really struggled figuring out arty. How do you imitiate a strike and then manage it? None of my strikes show up in Staff and I have to issue the orders each turn.
Alright, I give up. I can't figure out how artificial illumination works. I have wrecks and illumination rounds and I have no way to tell what the illumination at a particular point on the map. I have wrecks burning, which is supposed to raise the illumination level in a hex, but can't see the result. I dropped 10 illumination rds into a hex oover a few turns and see no way to tell if its working. Another issue is that the manual states that illumination should never be less than 0. I have a illumination base of -3. A bug?
Also, I have really struggled figuring out arty. How do you imitiate a strike and then manage it? None of my strikes show up in Staff and I have to issue the orders each turn.
Don't take it as a failure or as a frustration. This is the type of info Scott needs to know. If you have not done so, send him an e-mail explaining what you have done and the results. Let him hear your frustration. Maybe it is not working right. I would not be surprised. When I was working with POA2 when it was first released, I felt the same frustration on many things. And so did others. We kept reporting to Scott and a lot of it got fixed.
Also, I have really struggled figuring out arty. How do you imitiate a strike and then manage it? None of my strikes show up in Staff and I have to issue the orders each turn.
I'm slowly getting the hang of using artillery. It can be a bit tricky as some of the checkboxes and radio buttons in the Artillery window have a nasty habit of resetting back to defaults values. Keep an eye on that and at first simply target area hexes, not specific units. That seems to help.
The "honey-do" list is quite long this weekend, but I will try and put together and post a short how-to guide tomorrow night.
thanks,
Mike
How do I find the artillery display? I had it up once and still don't know how I did it.
How do I find the artillery display? I had it up once and still don't know how I did it.
The easiest way is to right click on the hex you want to target with IF and select Indirect Fire. The Indirect Fire window will open and allow you to select the unit(s) to fire, the ammo type, number of rounds, fire pattern, spotting unit and many other options...
Let me know if that solves the issue for you.
Thanks,
Mike
Now that works. I should have figured it out. I got the illumination rounds to fire, but still can't tell what's illuminated. Also, some arty pieces have illum round capabilities, but they start out with no rounds and no matter how many times you increase the number of rounds during force selection, they stay at 0 in the scenario. I had to dig through the database to find mortars that had rounds already allocated in the database.
Now I am even more confused by the the sighting rules. As you can see in the attached file, the BTR60 has no IR or thermal sights, yet sees the mortat carrier and M113 from 1200 meters in pitch black. Even after firing the illum rounds, the US can't see the BTR60. Makes no sense.
Thewood,
Is your email functioning yet? If so, send your test file(s) to Scott along with your observations. It does sound as if something isn't working correctly. If your email is still down, let me know and I will forward the info on to Scott for you.
Thanks,
Mike
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.