Most important naval battle...

[Scully]

...to study if you want to understand the strategy and tactics of modern naval warfare?

I like case studies/historical studies, so I was interested to hear what battle/battles are best to study to better understand modern naval warfare?

Unlike land warfare, there doesn't seem to be a lot of recent history to study. Is the Falklands War the last time there was any sort of major anti-ship warfare? Or do you really need to go back to WWII?

Also, any books, magazine articles or good websites about the battles would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

[MikMyk]

Falklands is a good one to look at as well as some engagements in the Persian Gulf in the 80's (Iran-Iraq, Stark, Preying Mantis etc), Libya (80's) and probably some value in the first Gulf War (some missiles where fired although primarly coaltion helo launched ASM's baring an attempt at a US BB). Battle of Latakia is another good one in terms of SSM and countermeasures.

[VCDH]

For aircraft vs ships I'd say the Falklands.

For missile boat action the 1973 Yom Kippur war.

The tankers wars don't really count except in the preformance of the missiles used in that theater. This was mainly because the Iranians didn't really have the moxie to face the US head on. They prefered to attack un-escorted ships that were not covered by Operation Ernest Will.

Later
D

Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin

http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/daleh/avatars/vcdh.jpg

[JClark_1]

Battle of Coral Sea...first battle in which the major naval combatants did not see each other. Runner up, Midway, where serveral innovations were used, including fighter direction and coordination (using radar), and time on target attacks.

[VCDH]

Battle of Coral Sea...first battle in which the major naval combatants did not see each other. Runner up, Midway, where serveral innovations were used, including fighter direction and coordination (using radar), and time on target attacks.

Weeeelll...I donno about that.

While Coral Sea was the first carrier engagment, and Midway was the first major victory, I think the night battles around the Solomons were more important to the USN in regards of learning experiances. I believe what was learned there has a better application for todays modern tactics than a swapping of carrier strikes.

Later
D

Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin

http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/daleh/avatars/vcdh.jpg

[Scully]

Falklands is a good one to look at as well as some engagements in the Persian Gulf in the 80's (Iran-Iraq, Stark, Preying Mantis etc), Libya (80's) and probably some value in the first Gulf War (some missiles where fired although primarly coaltion helo launched ASM's baring an attempt at a US BB). Battle of Latakia is another good one in terms of SSM and countermeasures.


Hey Mike,

Thanks for the response. A couple of more quick questions:

1. I just read a quick summary of the Latakia battle and was curious as to how ECM work in Harpoon 3. I've been playing a little bit of Harpoon 4.1 paper rules and as I'm sure you know, they use what generation the missile vs. generation of countermeasure to determine the percent hit number.

Is Harpoon 3 modeled similarly or is it more/less detailed? If anyone would like to describe how it works in HC, that would be great too. I own H3, so I'm particularly interested in it.

While we're on Latakia, are there any H3 scenarios based on the battle that you're aware of?

2. I guess as a follow up to the ECM question, are there particular strategies/tactics for using ECM or do you basically turn it on when missiles are heading your way?

3. What is the Preying Mantis? Unfortunately, when I googled, I got a thousand links to the insect and nothing on naval warfare. :)

Thanks,
Brian

[Scully]

One other quick question for everyone...do you have any recommendations on books/articles/weblinks for the battles you've mentioned?

Thanks,
Brian

[pmaidhof]

What is the Preying Mantis? Unfortunately, when I googled, I got a thousand links to the insect and nothing on naval warfare. :)1987/88 US Navy/Marines action versus Iranian naval units confronting US units and seeding mines, and oil rigs being used as bases for attacks on reflagged oil tankers in the Gulf.

From https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETInternet/Homepages/AC/CLAMO-Public.nsf/0/32726f5b643b972985256c1000701e12/$FILE/Ch%202.doc

In 1988, under General Alfred M. Gray, the 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps, who had been the Commanding General of FMFLANT in 1984, MAUs were redesignated as Marine Expeditionary Units (MEUs). The following year, on 18 April 1989, the MEU(SOC) program was tested in combat for the first time. In response to the mining of the USS Samuel B. Roberts (FFG-58) by Iranian forces, the 22nd MEU(SOC) took part in Operation PREYING MANTIS against Iranian oil platforms that were being used as bases for attacks against tankers coming down the Persian Gulf. During the operation, the 22nd MEU(SOC) demonstrated its capabilities by taking down several oil platforms with coordinated sea and air support provided by Navy surface ships, including the USS Enterprise (CVN-65).

Returning to lurker mode. :hush:

[MikMyk]

Hey Brian

1. I just read a quick summary of the Latakia battle and was curious as to how ECM work in Harpoon 3. I've been playing a little bit of Harpoon 4.1 paper rules and as I'm sure you know, they use what generation the missile vs. generation of countermeasure to determine the percent hit number.

Little different. I'll let Dale expound as the DB guys work with it alot and have a better understanding of it. You can explore this yourself through the use of logging made available to you in the game. Check out your options files the AA Log and all the different show files you can activate to write the computations to your log. The programmers have some nice que's (ZAP!!) so should be easy to see where it happens.


Is Harpoon 3 modeled similarly or is it more/less detailed?

A little more detail as Paper Rules were designed for the human processor to deal with and the Computer Rules the silicon mind. This is not to say they are better as the generational rules work well and make sense. The difference is that computer can work with input/out ranges etc whereas paper is more general (thank gawd).

While we're on Latakia, are there any H3 scenarios based on the battle that you're aware of?

Yeah, randomizer just modeled that very battle using Sirius's Colonial Wars db. You can find it in the scenario testing grounds at the HHQ.

http://www.harpoonhq.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1916

2. I guess as a follow up to the ECM question, are there particular strategies/tactics for using ECM or do you basically turn it on when missiles are heading your way?

Well there are many types of ECM (offensive,defensive) but in terms of the shipborne stuff I'd turn it on when you are certain of an antishipping attack. As you know making electronic noise is very bad unless you really have to.

3. What is the Preying Mantis? Unfortunately, when I googled, I got a thousand links to the insect and nothing on naval warfare. :)

Preying Mantis and Earnest Will. All these operation focused on Iran/Iraq during the first Gulfwar (Iran vs. Iraq).

http://www.factbites.com/topics/Operation-Earnest-Will

Gulf War (Coalition vs. Iraq) Naval Operations:

http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm/

Royal Navy in the Gulf:

http://britishwarships.cjb.net/

Falklands:

Battles of the Falklands War:

http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1982FALKLANDS.htm

Argentine Airpower in the Falklands:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/fal02/corum.html

Aircraft Carriers and The Falklands War:

http://britishwarships.cjb.net/

Ragnar's Falklands Battleset and Story

http://www.harpoonhq.com/harpoon3/scenarios/plot-falklands.html

Thanks,
Brian

np