View Full Version : Official request to Don
Don, I'm requesting that you intervene in this latest rash of low content flaming. It's ever so polite, but flaming none the less. I'm not particularly interested in who you decide to discuss this with, or to what level you wish to take it. But I'm not interested in the least, in seeing this kind of BS continue. REAL Harpooners, the kind of people who win Harpooner of the Year awards, do what they do simply because they enjoy serving the community...and don't give a damn about "glory" or "fame", or being a "Harpoon god".
Herman, I strongly suggest you leave this post up. I've copied it, and if it disappears, I will tender it to Don in the appropriate place, along with notices to the Team Harpoon leadership.
Everyone should also remember, that TEAM members, get to be a part of The Next Harpoon...and them that don't want to be team members, won't.
Don Maddox
12 Mar 05, 12:03
We are discussing this issue in private among the staff. I do not claim to understand the inner working of the Harpoon community, but I do not want to see WHQ drawn into some type of flame war that has nothing to do with us.
Thank you :)
Thanks from me as well. We appreciate your consideration, and patience.
I am sure the War-Forums will do the right thing. Nobody wants to see WHQ drawn into a silly flame war. This Harpoon section holds a lot of promise, and it would be shame for it to be sullied by people who show up only to take jabs and cause trouble. :(
What's that, Myk ? Let's not denigrate each other. Do you want to be part of the solution, or part of the problem ? ;)
It is so unfortunate that two groups of people who are both extremely passionate about one single topic, modern naval warfare, can so petty with each other.
It is hard to see how the vision of The Next Harpoon can be realized when it would mean that these two groups, who each seem to allow their own belief that only they have the answer - can blind them so that their only interactions are to belittle and declare public distrust at one another, would have to work collaberatively.
While I do not have a horse in this race gentlemen, I just hope that cooler heads can prevail and that this concept can be successfully taken to the next level.
I couldn't agree more, Pete.
Have no fear, TNH is in good hands :cool:
Good to hear. Lotsa Harpooners will be watching and waiting to see what they can do. :)
Wasn't denigrating you Brad. All this just boogles the mind:nuts: .
Please do not drag me into this. Its been a frustrating enough.
Understood. Not my intention either, and yes, very frustrating. Lets get back to Harpooning, please. Everyone ... :cool:
Don Maddox
12 Mar 05, 18:56
Gentlemen, I am attempting to sort out what is going on here and it is not easy. It's obvious that--to an outsider at least--this is far more than a simple flame war between several individuals with a personality clash. This problem seems to be a lot bigger and deeper than that, which is highly unusual for the wargame community.
We only support a very small number of hand-picked wargames here. I have developers and publishers from around the community who contact me on a regular basis to actively support the sections we have and to encourage us to add additional sections for other wargames. Alas, we have a different purpose and mindset than some other wargame resources and we don't want to attempt to cover every single wargame out there. That is not what we do. That being said, we have never started a new wargame section in the past that has been greeted by such a storm of controversy. Since I'm not a Harpoon insider, I do not understand why this is. Frankly, I have concerns that we will ever be able to build a useful Harpoon resource here if our forum is constantly being used as a battleground for rival factions to flame each other, or for other sites to use our forum solely for the purpose of advertising their own web site.
I do not want to wade into the middle of all this muck, but as my email is being filled on a daily basis with concerns, complaints, and comments, it appears I have little choice. I find it ironic that I now seem to know more about the ongoing flame wars within the Harpoon community than I do the game!
We are discussing this issue at length in private, but I also wanted to air some of my own concerns here. I am now getting reports that Warfare HQ is being accused of posting content made with stolen software. This is a serious charge against us and I take it seriously. What content specifically is being questioned here? What software are we talking about? Is there an official scenario editing tool? Are there some sort of limitations publicly distributing scenarios made with this?
This post is not meant to invite a flame war here as everyone seeks to tell their side of things. I'm simply trying to make informed decisions and I don't currently know enough to do that.
Taitennek
12 Mar 05, 18:57
I like to give some comments too on this"official request".
I also designed a scenario and post it to The ScenShare Forum instead of posting it to HHQ (I do not agree with the scenario-design rules of the HHQ (see topic: http://www.harpoonhq.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1811 ).
And I'm not the only victim, in fact the other victims also post their designs at ScenShare or FilesofScenShare and not at HHQ.I simply refer to the 2 topics, but special to the following: http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874&page=2&pp=15
There is in fact a brandnew DB-version, still mentioned a DB2000-6524, now dated 13-03-2005 the second in 2 days, this version also crash my scenario, as well as other scenario's of other ïndependent"designers.
Not only aircraft-id's have been changed, also, surface and AAA entries (excact those units I used in my scenario)
Why changing the ID-number of these units? in fact the surface units of the Venezuelan Navy are already there since DB2000-6518.Just because these units are used in my scenario.
These changes, or so called improvements are just obstructions to let scenario's crash!
:crosseye: is fooling around with the DB in order to make it impossible for independent designers to present their scenario's to the public, since these scenario's are not designed according the HHQ standards.
If you post your design on Scenshare or Files of ScenShare,instead of on HHQ, you will be obstructed, I can proof this statement, just compare the DB-versions (Microsoft Access).
Reckall was rather specific, I go on further, also surface units, as well as landbased units and AAA units have undergone changements.
They all have been re-numbered (5 numbers, instead of 4), only that, but enough to crash a scenario.
What will be next??? some changes to load outs?????
I have expressed my concerns already 2 days after this section was active in a private message to The Doctor, it all came out. I'm not going to make this message public because the Doctor has to approve that, same for my message to him, that's my descision. The WHQ administrators should consider that this struggle is going on just because of one reason....Herman Hum...
HHQ is hunting Herman down because of past struggles with the HHQ-staff.
This Harpoon section is set up with many thanks to Herman Hum, the HHQ-staff wants to take over control, main reason is Herman's position (moderator).
It is rather strange that :crosseye: is obstructing my scenario, while :eek: is asking for my contribution for the HIII-Enceclopedia. Why is HHQ, :crosseye: sabotaging my scenario??? And what is the reason for the invitation to give contributions to that Enceclopedia????
It is an insult to all of us (independent designers) when Herman has to leave. But I'm just a little green monkey..... :devious:
Don Maddox
12 Mar 05, 19:07
One other request: I love usernames as much as the next person, but I also have difficulty matching up a person on the forum with the people who email me because the names are all different.
Many of the members at WHQ do, in fact, use usernames. But we also encourage our members to edit their profiles and fill in the space for real name. This helps cut down on confusion and tends to keep an honest man honest.
To edit your profile, click on the User CP link near the top left side of the forum. You can edit all sorts of things in there.
Taitennek
12 Mar 05, 21:15
I am sure the War-Forums will do the right thing. Nobody wants to see WHQ drawn into a silly flame war. This Harpoon section holds a lot of promise, and it would be shame for it to be sullied by people who show up only to take jabs and cause trouble. :(Ach CV32 [USS LEYTE, 1946-1959).
I hope so, but I'm affraid that this silly flame ware will continue where ever Herman is, as soon Herman is active somewhere else, the HHQ will hunt him down overthere. It's a big shame that the HHQ is going over the body's of others (like me, or Freek, Fred, or others who refuse to submit their scenario's on HHQ. Simply as that. The HHQ-admirals won't stop their operation "Destruct Herman and compagnons" as long we are producing and presenting scenario's, independent from the HHQ.
:crosseye: is playing a very sneaky and dirty game with all his db-improvements, You know, I know and other are aware of it.
Secret Agent
12 Mar 05, 21:24
I don't want to add anything to heat this, umm, "discussion", but why can't HHQ just be happy that Herman Hum is advertising their game? I downloaded a demo of Harpoon3 (from HHQ) , after seeing one of Mr. Hum's AARs! If it hadn't been for that, I probably wouldn't have.
Taitennek
12 Mar 05, 21:33
One other request: I love usernames as much as the next person, but I also have difficulty matching up a person on the forum with the people who email me because the names are all different.
Many of the members at WHQ do, in fact, use usernames. But we also encourage our members to edit their profiles and fill in the space for real name. This helps cut down on confusion and tends to keep an honest man honest.
To edit your profile, click on the User CP link near the top left side of the forum. You can edit all sorts of things in there.
Sorry If I didn't mention my real name:
Frans Koenz, Netherlands, known as Taitennek or green Monkey
Taitennek
12 Mar 05, 21:51
Have no fear, TNH is in good hands :cool:
:blab:
Herman Hum
13 Mar 05, 01:27
Ragnar Emsoy is fooling around with the DB in order to make it impossible for independent designers to present their scenario's to the public, since these scenario's are not designed according the HHQ standards. HHQ is hunting Herman down because of past struggles with the HHQ-staff.
This Harpoon section is set up with many thanks to Herman Hum, the HHQ-staff wants to take over control, main reason is Herman's position (moderator). It is rather strange that Ragnar Emsoy is obstructing my scenario, while Darn Hayes is asking for my contribution for the HIII-Enceclopedia. Why is HHQ, Ragnar sabotaging my scenario??? 1) If, as a part of your post, you feel compelled to engage in name-calling, derogatory or denigrating comments, or racial, ethnic or sectarian slurs, you need to take a break, and reconsider what you are going to post. The racial, etc .comments WILL NOT be tolerated.3) If you are going to engage in innuendo, rumor-mongering, character assassination or stereotyping, please do it elsewhere. I would like to see this forum proceed at above a juvenile level.The overriding principle should be this: this should be an intellectual, but also fun, forum. Nobody comes here wanting to be flamed, insulted, referred to by racial, ethnic, sectarian or other slurs.Your comments are noted as contrary to the forum guidelines posted at: http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12313 and will not be tolerated. Personal attacks at other members will not be allowed.
Taitennek
13 Mar 05, 07:31
Your comments are noted as contrary to the forum guidelines posted at: http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12313 and will not be tolerated. Personal attacks at other members will not be allowed.
I apologize to this forum for the fact that I mentiond names in my topic, it is against the rules and/or (n)etiquette.
Sorry.
Frans Koenz.
P.S. I have removed the names in my topic and placed emoticons.
I disagree. The softwart at issue is that developed by the HarpoonHq people, and it's theirs. I'm certain that they would gladly allow other sites to use this software, IF ONLY THOSE SITES WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE WHERE IT CAME FROM. Failure to use this software correctly, the scenario rebuilder, will likely end in a crashed scenario.
And my personal opinion is real simple. It is a mistake to put either one of two diametrically opposed individuals in charge of this forum. It simply invites an abuse of power. Do I wish to see Herman run off, only to be replaced by the evil minions of HarpoonHq? No, not at all. I don't think Ragnar can be any more objective about the subject than Herman can, which is a damn shame, given how hard both these young men work for the game. Unfortunately, this has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours"/"they're out to get me" fest, and I'm personally sick of dealing with it. This same mess cost me most of a treasured weekend trying to put this fire out, and at the end of the day, both Ragnar and Herman were banned from two groups, until the day came they could learn to act like adults. Tough words, I know, and I'm not very interested in hearing any comments in objection. It's the truth.
Don, if you're sick and tired of this, then so be it. But I humbly suggest you pick someone like Scully, who is in neither camp to moderate. And no, I'm not nominating myself...I have the HULL to moderate, and that's enough.
Divefreak
13 Mar 05, 09:32
[QUOTE=JClark_1]
>And my personal opinion is real simple. It is a mistake to put >either one of two diametrically opposed individuals in charge of >this forum. It simply invites an abuse of power.
Until now I can´t see any abuse of power by the leader of this section. So no need to change anything.
>Do I wish to see Herman run off, only to be replaced by the evil >minions of HarpoonHq? No, not at all. I don't think Ragnar can >be any more objective about the subject than Herman can, which >is a damn shame, given how hard both these young men work for >the game.
You´re very right about this.
>Unfortunately, this has turned into a "mine is bigger than >yours"/"they're out to get me" fest, and I'm personally sick of >dealing with it.
Right it is like a "kindergarten" as we call it in Germany.
>Don, if you're sick and tired of this, then so be it. But I >humbly suggest you pick someone like Scully, who is in neither >camp to moderate.
I don´t think it is posible to find someone not pressed in any group. Even I seem to be pressed in one. Sometime ago someone banned me from #harpoon. Don´t know really why. I´m a HCG Player/Scen/DB desinger so i talk to the ones doing the same.
BTW a Day later i had a very valuable chat about ESSM on Absalon L16 even if someone mixed up the different dbs a bit! ;-)
So to all in the Harpoon comunity, please calm down and sit on your fingers for a while, when your bloodpressure is a bit high caused by a post you ve read.
In the German Military there´s one rule for for complaints:
you have to wait 24h before writing it, otherwise it won´t be acceptet by superior officer.
Regards René And Sorry for my english hope you can understand me!
A little bit of information about the DB2k and Scenarios created.
First and foremost the database 2000 is not a product of AGSI but a product of Ragnar Emsoy. The game comes with a db editor and Ragnar has consistently updated and developed into a resource all parties use. For those of you into metrics this is easily 1000's of hours of work. He has done so tirelessly and doesn't charge a dime for it. It is a resource freely distributed to the community because he likes the game and he is doing a service to the players.
Now because its updated regularly there has always been an understanding that as the database is updated the scenarios must be updated too because the database version and the scenario must match. Ragnar does maintain and update scenarios on his site however he has never been responsible or the scenarios on other people's sites or hard drives. That is a reasonable expectation because the knowledge on how to do it is provided.
Now from what Herman/Vince have pinned up on your board (with screenshots and all) they are claiming that the database changed. This is not news as its updated all the time and certainly not the responsibility of Ragnar to fix. It is Ragnars database and he can do what he wishes with it. It is up to Herman and the scenario writers to learn how to update their scenarios to the database they are using.
If Herman wishes to host and maintain scenarios using the DB2k it is his responsibility to keep them properly updated. It is not Ragnar's. He just provides the resource and is by no means obligated into some sort of service or social contract. All of these errors can be rectified by opening the scenario deleting the bad units and entering new one's. This is nothing new and not all that difficult. Seriously about 10 seconds per unit. It just requires the motivation to do so.
Now if folks don't like this thats okay. There are other databases out there and more importantly a database editor. So they have the ability to create and use other databases if they don't like how Ragnar updates his database or does business.
Now that being said I've banned all these guys from AGSI before for the same behavior you are seeing here. Nobody is innocent and they are all at fault. Its is a personality dispute. As you guys can probably figure out it was a miserable failure.
Here's is my last ban email to them.
As you know all of you have been banned from the AGSI forums. I'm going to lay it out for you on why you were banned and the fix. There is no bargaining,arguing or debate on this. Byron has already laid out his expectations (or will) to regain membership to HULL. I support him 100 percent.
You have been banned for:
A)Misrepresenting the Harpoon Community (from player to AGSI) on 4 major military sim forums (Subsim, Warfare HQ, SimHQ, Frugal's)that we know about.You have taken your personal squabbles (which is what they really are) to these other sites under the context of representing groups of Harpoon players and the community as a whole. You did so by the age old flamewar and generally making self promotional posts on a tit for tat basis which were clearly meant to incite and raise a mob. You have embarrassed us all from player to company and certainly misrepresented our communities opinion of a particular site, forum or person.
B)Disrespecting those forums you chose to take your fights to. All of these sites are generally supportive of the simulations their members choose to play and the folks that development then. They offer on their own dime a place to discuss and promote the games. They do not offer a place to fight nor raise a mob to bash
another Harpoon site or Pooner. Its is disrespectful of their kindness to do so and you've all made quite a mess of their forums. Oddly you didn't do the same to your own forums...you must respect it huh?
C)Failure to stop when asked. Over the past month (if not years) there has been a steady mail flow asking that these kinds of fights end. Most Pooners have stopped and moved on. For some reason you guys have not. I've noticed now that you are questioning why you got banned and why you wheren't given sufficient warning (some publically I might add). You've had it
all along and you know well it is not appreciated. None of you are without fault and you were asked to stop on generally a monthly basis.
Now to get back on the list the ball is in your hands. So its not up to me or any member of Team Harpoon but you. So there shouldn't be any complaints.
To get back on you must:
A)Never do this again and do not get others to do this for you. If you have a problem use private email and solve any personal problems yourselves.
B)Clean up your mess. Where appropriate and you are still allowed you should make honest efforts to remedy what you've done. The delete button would probably work best in most cases:) An apology or two wouldn't hurt as well.
C)Respect the community. You guys are all leaders in the Harpoon community which brings you all alot of benefits. However you must accept the responsibility of that by raising your bar higher. Do not disrespect any member by using your positions to do negative
things for personal reasons.
D)Make some positive contributions. I don't care how you do it but put some of that energy into something positive with Harpoon. All games need testing badly,work on your database, scenarios or any other positive thing you can think of. This is not hard as this is how we all started and you might discover why you like
these games again instead of why you hate a person or website.
So real simple. Do these things and I don't see any problems with you guys getting back on. Its all in your hands. You can't do this or don't want to hear it, cya. If you can great! Once I see positive things happening I'll lift the ban and we'll be on our way forward.
Mike
I agree with Byron 100 percent. If there is to be a Harpoon section at Warfare its gotta be all about the hobby. No politics, not this guy did that...Just about the game and all the ways you can have fun with it.
Find us a moderator who will take no crap and will ban, delete or do whatever he can to keep it this way. He must be neutral and by non affiliated. Just a guy that likes the game and likes talking about it here.
I'm affilitiated so I'm out. My suggestion is Brian or Byron because the got the right attitude and the stones.
Done
Don Maddox
13 Mar 05, 13:58
Now if folks don't like this that’s okay. There are other databases out there and more importantly a database editor. So they have the ability to create and use other databases if they don't like how Ragnar updates his database or does business.Fair enough Mike, but to an outsider who has no interest in this one way or the other, that does appear to be an oversimplification. We host plenty of third party material here at WHQ, and we do so with the blessing--and oftentimes the active support--of the developers/publishers. I can't think of a single instance in which a publisher or developer intentionally changed file information in order to invalidate existing third party efforts. This would be massively counter-productive and would be a surefire method to generate animosity within the community. Granted, the database in question here does not seem to be an official product from the developer, thus different standards are in order.
As I said earlier, I am not a Harpoon player and I could very well be mistaken on this count. But my initial impression from looking at the information that has been presented here is that the database entries are being arbitrarily altered. If that happened in the TOAW, Combat Mission, or Campaign Series community there would be a riot! It's one thing to extend a database and add additional units and/or edit their values to make them more correct. It's quite another to alter the database layout itself on a monthly basis while not making substantial changes to the entries in question. At the very least, this has the appearance of having an ulterior motive. Again, I do not have all the facts here and I am not making any kind of judgment on the issue. I am just stating how it looks from an outside perspective.
Don Maddox
13 Mar 05, 14:11
I agree with Byron 100 percent. If there is to be a Harpoon section at Warfare its gotta be all about the hobby. No politics, not this guy did that...Just about the game and all the ways you can have fun with it. Agreed.
Find us a moderator who will take no crap and will ban, delete or do whatever he can to keep it this way. He must be neutral and by non affiliated. Just a guy that likes the game and likes talking about it here.
I take it that your use of the term "find us a moderator" is meant to imply that you would like to see Herman go?
It appears that a number of people feel this way, but I'm not in the habit of removing Warfare HQ staff members without a real good reason. It does appear the Herman had some bad blood between himself and some other individuals prior to starting up the Harpoon section here. That being said, he is a volunteer, not a paid employee and that means I have to apply a different standard to a large extent.
Most new WHQ staff members get the luxury of settling in and getting to know how things operate around here before they face any serious moderation challenges of any kind. In our experience, it usually takes quite a while for a new forum to gather enough of an audience and a loyal enough following for any flame wars to erupt. Harpoon appears to be an exception in this regard. In this particular instance, the flames actually started even prior to the Harpoon section being activated. Thus we are left attempting to do damage control before the section had even generated any momentum. Once the section was officially activated, few of the posts made on this sub-forum were substantial contributions to wargaming. Most of them were either attacks of one sort or another, or attempts to plug another website. All of this has led the senior staff here to question whether the Harpoon community has any desire to have another serious Harpoon web site around.
Well let me ask you this. Why wasn't Ragnar contacted ahead of time and why was it posted directly to a third party user lists. Was it looking for a resolution or was it looking for a very public argument? Why was it posted twice to your list and once pinned? (Ahead of AGSI support links I might add). Just looks like a problem was being looked for rather than asked about.
Now in terms of practice, Rag lays out his policies here.
http://www.harpoonhq.com/harpoon3/instructions.html
He clearly says that he's only responsible for scenarios on the HHQ and not other websites. The only guarantee is that he'll maintain the HHQ's. So up to other other sites to guarantee the quality on their own. That means double checking and doing the work it takes to maintain Harpoon scenarios.
In terms of purposefully changing the values to screw up another's work. It certainly looks that way from what Reck posted and how he posted it. However the database is updated all the time and I don't think Ragnar needs to be hung up on some cross for it.
Personally I think if Vince had just emailed Rag and asked whats up to begin with all this noise would have never happened. Instead we needed to incite the mob.....and I don't think it was just because of a screwy database update thats for sure.
Don, I don't ususally jump in on tings like this, but I am an ultimate lurker and have played harpoon since its original 360 beta test days and the old Harpoon BBS.
If not for Ragner, Harpoon2 would have died a slow painful death. He has sacrified a good portion of his waking hours taking the DB2000 from a simple collection of fixes to the ultimate database for Harpoon3. He is not a publisher. He is a private individual who took it upon himself to give more than pretty much anyone else in this community. That is just a character testimonial.
As far as my opinion on DB2000, it is Ragner's and the people who contributed to it. He gives proper credit to the people who contributed. He pretty clearly states that if you use DB2000 without putting the scenarios on HarpoonHQ, you will have problems. Why someone would not want to do that is not something I can understand, but its is pretty clear. This is not a software developer making changes. This is someone's hobby and he can do with it what he likes. Why complain about something when it is very easy to just use the database that comes with H3 or any of the other new databases out there.
While I would not call the moderator heavy handed, anyone should be able to see the attitude in some of the sticky posts. As an owner of the site, I personally would drop the game as I can't imagine its worth the effort, especially when your moderator and one of the leading contributers to the H3 community are at odds.
I take it that your use of the term "find us a moderator" is meant to imply that you would like to see Herman go?
I would like a moderator that is fair and all about the hobby. If you can't find one, make Herman one that fits that description.
This has led the senior staff here to question whether the Harpoon community has any desire to have another serious Harpoon web site.
Good question however good leadership (moderator) will kind of dicatate a good direction on that right? If you have one that establishes what we've talked about then there will be no worries about the low substance post you've talked about.
Now honestly I do like your site and I've been here prior to Harpoon showing up. I came along with the merge. I like the other games etc. and do notice that there are really cool things happening there that further the hobby. I wish that same would happen for the Harpoon section really... However, if this section is just gonna be a noisy mess do what you gotta do.
Don Maddox
13 Mar 05, 14:30
Well let me ask you this. Why wasn't Ragnar contacted ahead of time and why was it posted directly to a third party user lists?
That's a fair question Mike and one that I would like to have an answer to myself. At this time I am not privy to what all did or did not occur or what emails were sent (if any). But I do agree that a good faith attempt should have been made to solve the issue. Was it? I'll have to leave that for the parties involved to answer.
Personally I think if Vince had just emailed Rag and asked whets up to begin with all this noise would have never happened. Instead we needed to incite the mob.....and I don't think it was just because of a screwy database update that’s for sure.
You could be correct in that assessment, I just don't know.
You see my dilemma here? As this drama continues to unfold, it appears I am being left with two basic courses of action, neither of which is very attractive. A) Leave Herman in place, in which case it seems likely that a substantial percentage of the Harpoon community will disapprove of the management of the section. In which case I'm doubtful the section will do well in the long term. B) Remove Herman on a rather nebulous pretext and basically implode the section before it even gets started.
This is, of course, an oversimplification to some extent, but that seems to be the direction this thread is taking. As I mentioned earlier, the staff is talking about this in private. The senior staff are also holding a separate discussion on the issue, and at present the feeling is that Harpoon is not fitting in well with the other wargames we support here. There is concern that this will turn into some kind of massive pissing match no matter what course of action we elect to pursue, and the staff do not want to see it spill over into the other sections.
I do hope that this will not end up being the case. Herman has spent a considerable amount of time contributing to the section and I feel I owe him the benefit of the doubt.
Fair enough Don.
As a member of Warfare (not just the Harpoon section) I have great faith you guys will work this out. Like I said I still have other sections I like and enjoy and will continue to do so regardless. Its a damn shame is what it is but anyways......off to enjoy the hobby :)
A little bit of information about the DB2k and Scenarios created.
First and foremost the database 2000 is not a product of AGSI but a product of Ragnar Emsoy. The game comes with a db editor and Ragnar has consistently updated and developed into a resource all parties use. For those of you into metrics this is easily 1000's of hours of work. He has done so tirelessly and doesn't charge a dime for it. It is a resource freely distributed to the community because he likes the game
This is very true, and I could add that the community, in exchange for his work, provides infos about new platforms, corrections, suggestions and excellent scenarios - done by a number of players. All things that make DB2000 more valuable pratically on a daily basis.
Now because its updated regularly there has always been an understanding that as the database is updated the scenarios must be updated too because the database version and the scenario must match. Ragnar does maintain and update scenarios on his site however he has never been responsible or the scenarios on other people's sites or hard drives. That is a reasonable expectation because the knowledge on how to do it is provided.
I do fully agree. BTW, the sticked warning explicitly says that "The sites maintaining scenarios on the Web always guarantee that their files are compatible with the latest released version of DB2000."
Now from what Herman/Vince have pinned up on your board (with screenshots and all) they are claiming that the database changed.
Actually, that the database changed *without warning*. This is the key point.
This is not news as its updated all the time and certainly not the responsibility of Ragnar to fix. It is Ragnars database and he can do what he wishes with it. It is up to Herman and the scenario writers to learn how to update their scenarios to the database they are using.
Well, one could argue that it is responsibility of the mantainer of the database - which, as you just said, is not a private tool, but "a resource freely distributed to the community - to warn the community when the DB's contents change. However, the Harpoon community always shared the burden of doing services to the game and to other fellow players; so, this time, as an exchange for all the hours of enjoyment Harpoon gave me, I took the burden to warn about the changes, about the fact that they can be unannounced, and what to do if you meet some problems because of this. By a player, for the players :)
If Herman wishes to host and maintain scenarios using the DB2k it is his responsibility to keep them properly updated. It is not Ragnar's.
He does, AFAIK, but I feel that his burden (and other designers') would be lessened if changes in the DB would be publicized. Having to discover it for yourself means more time needed to track down problems, more time needed to rebuild scenarios, less time available to improve their number and quality. For this reason I politely asked if it was possiblle to formally warn of changes when they are done. Ragnar said he will not do it all the time, so a workaround was needed. Thus the reason for the warning.
He just provides the resource and is by no means obligated into some sort of service or social contract.
Everything in the community is freely done and, as far I'm concerned, done to improve a game which we all love, or we wouldn't be here spending so much time talking about it, wouldn't we? :)
All of these errors can be rectified by opening the scenario deleting the bad units and entering new one's. This is nothing new and not all that difficult. Seriously about 10 seconds per unit.
Actually, no. *Fixing* the problem may require 10 seconds, but finding out what the problem is can require hours. I can fix a malfunctioning piece of hardware on my PC in a minute, after spending a whole afternoon to discover were the problem was. Having a lead, in both cases would help much.
It just requires the motivation to do so.
We all have it, and helping each other had always had a good way to have more, and to cut down times of frustration :)
Now if folks don't like this thats okay. There are other databases out there and more importantly a database editor.
So they have the ability to create and use other databases if they don't like how Ragnar updates his database or does business.
If you have a problem with your girlfriend, or with a close friend, there are alternatives to breaking the relationship: for example, you can try to talk with the other about these problems, about finding solutions, or you can even learn to live with them, because life is not perfect, and sometimes there will be something much more important involved - in this case a good game of Harpoon with DB2000 :)
Later!
Vincenzo
HercMighty
13 Mar 05, 15:22
It is to bad to see this happen. There seems to be much that has happened long before I started playing harpoon. There is a feud between versions, a feud about the database, and now threats about TNH.
I think 1 of 2 things should happen:
1. The preffered option would be on the HHQ site if the date under the link for the database could be changed when it is updated. At least this would give people a place to go and look and remove the perception that is being changed behind peoples back.
Now we can all read the posts in this thread and read the reasons why this doesn't have to be done, but if Ranger is as caring and nice as he seems to be this shouldn't be to much to ask.
2. Make the database a private database.
Now this option would be an extreme move and may have a serious impact on the harpoon community.
Also another contention seems to be the scenario rebuilder. Is this going to be made public? I have never seen it posted but I am not as active as others and also do not build scenarios so it could be that I just haven't seen it. Why can't this be made public even if it is sold?
I just do not understand why there is such a contention over why the database being changed cannot be made public. I am sorry but it does seem fishy that changes are being made and no way for someone to know and the refusal to announce the changes. If it is just changing a ships length from 102 to 103, okay I agree here but is ship XXX is at cell number 102 and now is at cell 204 why not tell people. This is not a minor change IMHO.
Like everybody here I would just like some type of resolution to be made so we can all move on. And if everybody could make up and get along all the better.
Regards
As a member of Warfare (not just the Harpoon section) I have great faith you guys will work this out.
I don't.
Baseed on my experiance as a forum admin, I don't believe this forum will have any credibility until it undergoes a change in moderation. Mike's idea of a totally independant admin with no ties to either community is a good idea and the only one with any credibility.
I've seen too much bad blood over the years to believe that this is going to end. In fact, I believe this is not going to end until the deaths of several people involved. This nonsense has gotten way too personal and has gone on too far for any kind of trust, much less communication.
Regardless of DOn's benifit of the doubt, Herman has to go or this site will never have any credibility. He needs to be replaced with a moderator that will tolderate no nonsense and will ban offenders at the slightest hint of any disturbance. Personally, if it was me, I'd have removed Herman as moderator until some of the more important questions (the most important of which regarding software theft has been carefully avoided here I might add) has been resolved.
Well, one could argue that it is responsibility of the mantainer of the database - which, as you just said, is not a private tool, but "a resource freely distributed to the community - to warn the community when the DB's contents change.
What part of Mike's post don't you understand Vince? I mean really...why is it that you feel Rag is obligated to provide 'support'?
However, the Harpoon community always shared the burden of doing services to the game and to other fellow players; so, this time, as an exchange for all the hours of enjoyment Harpoon gave me, I took the burden to warn about the changes, about the fact that they can be unannounced, and what to do if you meet some problems because of this. By a player, for the players :)
You have no idea what you talking about. Start a DB, run it for a year and then come talking to me about 'services' ok?
What you should have done was gone to Ragnar privately but instead you posted to this AND the HQ forum. Thus making a mountain out of a molehill. And I can tell you right now we are seriously considering the status of your membership on the HQ forums right now. If for no other reason than the agenda that you are trying to push. Someone with no agenda would have come to Rag privately. So either you did have an agenda or didn't.
If you have a problem with your girlfriend, or with a close friend, there are alternatives to breaking the relationship: for example, you can try to talk with the other about these problems, about finding solutions, or you can even learn to live with them, because life is not perfect, and sometimes there will be something much more important involved - in this case a good game of Harpoon with DB2000 :)
This might be a good attitude to have Vince but I've got news for you. This kind of thing goes way deeper and farther back than you can possibly imagine. Don is correct when he says he's lookin at it from the outside in. 95% of all people reading this thread have no idea why things can get so bad. This includes you.
As far as I am concerned, looking at this from the inside out, there are several reasons why this kind of nonsense is happening.
1. People can't learn to shut their mouths.
2. The principals involved here hate each others guts. This will never, ever change.
3. The principals invlolved are simply too ignorant and too stupid to figure it out that the best way to solve this problem is to keep away from the other and be done with it.
and most important of all:
4. The regular players (Yes Vince I'm talking about people like you) need to learn to ignore this nonsense, and play the game. Which is what this is about. Don't get involved because it will only wind up pushing you in one camp or another. Hatin' is bad.
I must say I am very dissapointed by the inaction of the senior moderators of this forum. Perhaps that's just my own personal experiance talking but that is nevertheless how I see it.
This message has been saved to prevent biased moderation.
Later
D
Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin
http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/daleh/avatars/vcdh.jpg
It is to bad to see this happen. There seems to be much that has happened long before I started playing harpoon. There is a feud between versions, a feud about the database, and now threats about TNH.
To be utterly clear, TNH and AGSI has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. The gentleman that evoked it in a prior rambling email knows nothing about the development of the game and is not privy to any inside information other than what he was fed prior to making the email.
Any threat made toward TNH is horsestuff. The team is generally professional with a few community volunteers. AGSI is committed to making it happen regardless of any noise you may here.
Not railing you btw. Herc just noticed that bit of rubbish got picked up :)
HercMighty
13 Mar 05, 15:50
Not railing you btw. Herc just noticed that bit of rubbish got picked up :)
No problem there. I really got interested in Harpoon when I found H4 being touted back when. As good as I like H3 I am playing it so when H3 multi and then when TNH comes out I will be up to speed with the rest of you.
I also strongly believe that TNH will finally realize the full potential of the rules, the combining the best of the harpoon versions and along with computer technology giving us the best simulator out there.
To be utterly clear, TNH and AGSI has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. The gentleman that evoked it in a prior rambling email knows nothing about the development of the game and is not privy to any inside information other than what he was fed prior to making the email. If that was me mik, then I apologise for making that linkage. You're right, I'm not privy, nor will I ever. You can count me among the many who have been turned off by the likes of your feud.
As an outsider, I must say it is a sorry state of affairs to see these two factions beat up on each other incessantly when they really have a lot in common. Dale said it right above, just play the game.
Best of luck to both camps. I'm out of here.
Herman Hum
13 Mar 05, 17:07
I apologize to this forum for the fact that I mentiond names in my topic, it is against the rules and/or (n)etiquette.
Sorry.
Frans Koenz.
P.S. I have removed the names in my topic and placed emoticons.
Thank you for your retraction. I understand your sentiment and that the facts behind your feelings have not changed.
If that was me mik, then I apologise for making that linkage. You're right, I'm not privy, nor will I ever. You can count me among the many who have been turned off by the likes of your feud.
As an outsider, I must say it is a sorry state of affairs to see these two factions beat up on each other incessantly when they really have a lot in common. Dale said it right above, just play the game.
Best of luck to both camps. I'm out of here.
Pete, the last thing we want, is Pooners leaving over this crap. Dale, Mike, and myself have been flogging on this for over six months now, and I'm about sick of it. All we want, is to shut this stupid bickering up, so Harpoon can present an intelligent face to the world...which it does, 99% of the time. If you want to blame anyone for this, blame Ragnar and Herman, for acting like children.
4. The regular players (Yes Vince I'm talking about people like you) need to learn to ignore this nonsense, and play the game.
Actually, regular players (like me) are *forced* to learn this "nonsense" if they do wish to play the game. I had a scenario I was working on, using the scenario editor, which suddenly started crashing on me - and I had no clue about why this happened. I had to go as far as exporting the DB2000 and combing all the entries to understand why. At the end, I discovered that some important platforms had been moved around without warning. So, as you can see, unluckily this kind of knowledge becomes necessary when you do wish to play Harpoon. But at the end another hurdle is cleared, and the gaming life goes on.
Regarding the reasons behind these happenings, you are right: I do not have the knowledge to be able to comment. I can comment only about what I do know, and, on this regard, I feel that Herman is doing a great job in promoting and expanding what Harpoon has to offer. I also have publicly said more than once that I feel the HHQ is doing a great job. I can also send you the scan of the article I published on my video gaming magazine about H3 and its community - the game getting five stars out of five by me. You can have the scan translated from Italian, if you wish.
Regarding the "keep this quiet", well, I came to HHQ to discuss my concerns with you. You locked the thread because "it bored you", so I assumed it was not big deal with you.
Then, of course, I have my personal ideas about why some Venezuelan and Dutch units are moved around without warning in DB2000 shortly after some scenarios involving Venezuela and Netherland and are published outside HHQ – but these being only that: personal ideas. However, I'm 100% with Don Maddox when he says that:
"If that happened in the TOAW, Combat Mission, or Campaign Series community there would be a riot! It's one thing to extend a database and add additional units and/or edit their values to make them more correct. It's quite another to alter the database layout itself on a monthly basis while not making substantial changes to the entries in question. At the very least, this has the appearance of having an ulterior motive. Again, I do not have all the facts here and I am not making any kind of judgment on the issue. I am just stating how it looks from an outside perspective."
These are my feelings too.
Anyway, as always, let's fix problems and play! As you see, at the end a workaround is always found, with a little effort and cooperation, and Harpoon is still there, each new day stronger, thanks to what the players do *FOR* the players!
Vincenzo
Oh, one last thing. As everybody can see by reading these interesting threads, not a single direct question about the reason of the changes was answered. We do not even know if there will be unannounced changes in the newly published DB2000 6.5.25 - so, my best opinion is that the simple warning to the community to always check the DB files if a scenario crashes - as *one* cautionary measure - should stay up.
Herman Hum
13 Mar 05, 20:53
I can't think of a single instance in which a publisher or developer intentionally changed file information in order to invalidate existing third party efforts. This would be massively counter-productive and would be a surefire method to generate animosity within the community. Granted, the database in question here does not seem to be an official product from the developer, thus different standards are in order.
As I said earlier, I am not a Harpoon player and I could very well be mistaken on this count. But my initial impression from looking at the information that has been presented here is that the database entries are being arbitrarily altered. If that happened in the TOAW, Combat Mission, or Campaign Series community there would be a riot! It's one thing to extend a database and add additional units and/or edit their values to make them more correct. It's quite another to alter the database layout itself on a monthly basis while not making substantial changes to the entries in question. At the very least, this has the appearance of having an ulterior motive. Again, I do not have all the facts here and I am not making any kind of judgment on the issue. I am just stating how it looks from an outside perspective.
These deliberate changes are the crux of the matter.
Here is a very broad analogy that might help for folks not familiar with the Harpoon game system.
1) Your town hires a new Chinese (like me) Street Coordinator.
2) He re-names all the street signs in his neighbourhood in Chinese. Now, unless there is a specific law against this, it is still proper and correct but no one else can find their way around except his family and other Chinese speakers. Physically, nothing has changed.
Now, if the streets were re-named back to their original status, this would become a non-issue because there would no longer be a problem. It would be as if nothing had happened.
Now, if the streets were re-named back to their original status, this would become a non-issue because there would no longer be a problem. It would be as if nothing had happened.
I really hope I read this wrong.
These deliberate changes are the crux of the matter.
Here is a very broad analogy that might help for folks not familiar with the Harpoon game system.
1) Your town hires a new Chinese (like me) Street Coordinator.
2) He re-names all the street signs in his neighbourhood in Chinese. Now, unless there is a specific law against this, it is still proper and correct but no one else can find their way around except his family and other Chinese speakers. Physically, nothing has changed.
Now, if the streets were re-named back to their original status, this would become a non-issue because there would no longer be a problem. It would be as if nothing had happened.
But it is not a public town. An no one hired anyone or pays anyone. If Ragner were being paid or charging us for DB2000, you might have a point. But he doesn't really get anything out of this except grief from people who think he has some underhanded plot to control the Harpoon world. Anyone is still free to build their own db and distribute it. Several people have had the ambition to do that and the HHQ has been very supportive of those endeavors.
Think of your story this way:
You move to a town and decide to start renaming streets on your own. You have no authority to do that and the town warns you to stop. There is a formal process to rename streets and an existing street coordinator who has volunteered to do the job for years. Would you continue renaming streets or start going to town meetings to get it done? I would suggest that if you were to continue renaming streets on your own, you would find yourself in trouble.
Maybe you could even run for election as street coordinator. But no one has asked you to be the street coordinator. You can move to a new town, but you still can't rename streets in the old town. I am sure the people in the new town would get tired pretty quickly of you complaining about how the old town runs its streets. I am sure that the new town would appreciate you much more if you developed your own street naming process and used it in your new town instead of worrying about the old town.
Now I think I beat that analogy to death.
Think of your story this way:
You move to a town and decide to start renaming streets on your own.
This is were this rebuttal fails. The *coordinator* is renaming streets, and both common people and architects get confused. So they ask politely to warn when a street is renamed. The coordinator states that he will not do so every time. People meet and decide to find workarounds (like exchanging info everytime the street names are changed) to avoid problems in their lives.
This is the correct analogy for what is happened.
Somebody please end this now....please!
Don Maddox
14 Mar 05, 00:06
It is now more obvious than ever that substantial elements of the Harpoon community do not wish any major wargaming entity to become involved with the system, and will actively seek to undermine any effort to do so. Warfare HQ and Armchair General are a powerful and well-known combination who do a lot to help developers and publishers get the word out about their products and bring in new gamers. And we are not in the habit of being dictated to by anyone.
At this point it seems that no matter what we do, there is going to be massive problems with this particular wargame. This community obviously has some very deep rooted issues that predate our attempts to contribute to it, and by all indications these issues are going to continue unabated no matter what we do or don't do with Harpoon here.
I have received a huge pile of email and private messages within the last 2-4 hours from all sorts of individuals on this issue. Our senior staff will be meeting to discuss the future of this section. I thank all of you for you candor in the matter and for taking the time to contact me directly and share your views. I do appreciate it.
It is now more obvious than ever that substantial elements of the Harpoon community do not wish any major wargaming entity to become involved with the system, and will actively seek to undermine any effort to do so. Warfare HQ and Armchair General are a powerful and well-known combination who do a lot to help developers and publishers get the word out about their products and bring in new gamers. And we are not in the habit of being dictated to by anyone.
At this point it seems that no matter what we do, there is going to be massive problems with this particular wargame. This community obviously has some very deep rooted issues that predate our attempts to contribute to it, and by all indications these issues are going to continue unabated no matter what we do or don't do with Harpoon here.
I have received a huge pile of email and private messages within the last 2-4 hours from all sorts of individuals on this issue. Our senior staff will be meeting to discuss the future of this section. I thank all of you for you candor in the matter and for taking the time to contact me directly and share your views. I do appreciate it.
Now,now, let's not be too drastic. If the problem is DB2000 leave the section for Harpoon classic. :halo:
After some reflection, it would seem that I was overly agressive in my previous post last evening.
Harpoon has been around for almost 20 years and while it is truly a time honored sim with a dedicated following, we welcome any organization who is willing to take the time and effort it takes to set up a forum to further enlarge the Harpoon community.
I did not have the right to tell ACG or WarfareHQ how to run their site. Nevertheless my post implied this and for that I apologize. Despite the problems that this forum is having at this time, I have no doubt that the senior admins will find the best solution to this problem and have everything back to normal.
I withdraw my previous comments regarding the senior admins of this forum and what should be done regarding it. I can only hope that this issue is now resolved and will refrain from making any futher comment on the matter.
Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin
http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/daleh/avatars/vcdh.jpg
Don, if I may throw in my two cents worth here.
I do not have this game even though Harpoon has been on my wish list I always seemed to have other priorities. I am definetely less likely to purchase this game now with all of this conflict and angst. My point in commenting is that for the observer who is might consider purchasing the game they will see the hostility and maybe decide hey what kind of help will I get, and who wants to put up with the hassles. It seems the game developers (if I understand what is going on) are shooting themselves in the foot.
I am definetely less likely to purchase this game now with all of this conflict and angst. My point in commenting is that for the observer who is might consider purchasing the game they will see the hostility and maybe decide hey what kind of help will I get, and who wants to put up with the hassles. It seems the game developers (if I understand what is going on) are shooting themselves in the foot.
You're right, let's turn to other, more quiet and flame/feud-less communities like Falcon 4 and Counter-Strike :devil:
Harpoon has endured such disagreements in the past and will no doubt weather them now and in the future. I am 100% confident on this.
Take the public arguments as an indication of the community's passion for the sim. Sometimes this passion takes a wrong turn, and you get threads and situations like this. But if you discount the community and the sim because of what you read here, you're missing out on the other 99% of the Harpoon community experience. The _good_ stuff.
John Osborne
14 Mar 05, 15:36
Don, if I may throw in my two cents worth here.
I do not have this game even though Harpoon has been on my wish list I always seemed to have other priorities. I am definetely less likely to purchase this game now with all of this conflict and angst. My point in commenting is that for the observer who is might consider purchasing the game they will see the hostility and maybe decide hey what kind of help will I get, and who wants to put up with the hassles. It seems the game developers (if I understand what is going on) are shooting themselves in the foot.
Hi Dennis,
I have H3 and I don't regret getting it. I agree with Sunburn, don't let a few people discourage you in getting the sim. Its a great sim. And besides when MP comes out, I need a player that I can beat up on Naval Tactics :devil:
John
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