Fed up with the spin

[Aries]

I am truely fed up with all the spin on the future of wargaming.

I read a recent article from over at Wargamer, and clearly, there are just some things people won't openly talk about for fear of saying things that shall remain unsaid.

Wargaming, when it was more a hobby played on a table with a mapboard/sheet of a famous time period/event, and numerous cardboard counters, and a dry game manual, worked fine because it worked fine.

In the fullness of time, the computer arrived, and perhaps some game designers got a bit too over indulgent, of novel ways to use a computer to go to extremes of counter and map image quality.

But that level of excess can be avoided modified or toned down at a whim.
Computers though, are excellent tools for the process of producing the manual no doubt.

Along comes the computer wargame, and rather than kill the hobby it modifies it greatly.
Is that modification good or bad?
Well let’s look at a few qualities that are considered off limits while we discuss this.

Note to mods, I am definitely serious here, this needs to be discussed among fellow wargamers openly and frankly. Not hush hushed, or deleted, and hoped that ignoring it means it's not there.

Thanks to the computer, I can sit down and play a wargame, and not care a hoot if I have to play it alone.
In most cases the AI is a woefully inadequate opponent though.
The best option is generally to play a hotseat game vs oneself.
We all have done this over the years with board games. A common trait of successful games being solitaire suitability as listed on the game box.

Direct online multiplayer participation in a game has been a great success primarily because you were playing other thinking humans.
Only when the game was able to be hacked and grant some players illegal super powers was there ever any problem.
I have watched persons I know, play Everquest or Counterstrike for hours a day, day after day, simply because they are not playing some dull AI.
They are socialising with real people even if remotely. The people are still there effectively enough.

But one over riding reality, which not one single computer wargame has been able to duck out of, is illegally obtained copies. Not one. Not on single solitary game. Regardless if we call them too simple, too hard, too big, too small. It has nothing to do with game mode ie RTS or turn using. It doesn’t matter be it old style looking graphics or newest in 3d high computer power demanding imagery.

Right now, this second, each and every one of our prized possessions is up for download. I have looked, done my research and confirmed this. This isn’t me talking about something to which I know not. I am not going to tell you the how, nor the where. Anyone with two functioning brain cells doesn’t even require me to utter it, so why do so in the end.
But the fact of the matter, is it is being done. It’s being done everywhere, night and day. Perfect absolute copies, not hack jobs.

Some of these files are offered as “demos” with or without the permission of the owners. The user has decreed they can offer these samples up “for the good of the hobby” unilaterally. I know, I have seen them. There is more to P2P than angering Hollywood and the MPAA.

I could offer a great suggestion to anyone that wanted a quick easy fix eh.

Stop making computer wargames entirely. Screeching fricking halt. Zero production.
I said COMPUTER wargames.

Today, this second, I can not download a single solitary board type wargame. Must have something to do with being unable to download cardboard. I can order a board game online. I can assist in beta testing a board game online. I can support a board game online. I can even get access to digital images of them. But, in the end, a physical product can’t be downloaded.
Suggesting that persons might resort to just using programs such as the well known VASL/VASSAL/Cyberboard and ADC2 is not going to alter the fact they can’t do so if those programs are not there.
It’s a simple matter to refuse to use them.

If tomorrow, I woke up and found, all the computer wargames were gone and or bereft of any support or continuation, I would still be a wargamer, and still capable of wargaming.
I could name you a nice long string of board games on sale right now too.
And I am quite willing to say, those companies sales would likely become quite healthy if they turned out to be the only source of quality wargames.

Utopian notion likely though. I don’t really genuinely expect Matrix Games, Battlefront, Schwerpunct, HPS to name the ones I know of off hand, that produce old style wargames, to just suddenly over night decide to chuck it all.
I also don’t expect over night, for any of those that go online and download free copies of those company’s games, to stop doing so.
And each download is a lost sale.
And in a business where success is determined by such a small run of units sales it seems, several thousand downloads means your business might not remain in existence long.
I have seen the amounts of downloads in just a short time span. You can say it doesn’t matter all you want. Your reluctance to accept it is not relevant to the reality.

I am bored to tears of hearing the same ole lament of how wargaming is dying.
In 5 years the hobby will be as interesting as it ever was.
The proportion of humanity that cares an iota of things historical is unlikely to change.
Our global population will continue to expand, but humanity itself will no doubt not have fundamentally shifted.
It is why I am not interested in bending over backwards to force non wargamers to become wargamers.
Try as you might, you will never get me to like playing football, or watching the opera either. I wouldn’t tune in no matter how much you did to make it impossible to resist.
I am a wargamer, because it’s the sort of person I am.
Like the chicken and the egg, what came first. The wargamer or the wargame?
Squad Leader didn’t make me a wargamer.

Board games can sell only if there is a reason to need them. That is just a market reality.
The squad tactical liking wargamer doesn’t have to restrict themselves much these days.
I can be out of pocket several hundreds of dollars for ASL. I can go cheaper and enjoy Lock n Load. ATS is currently mid range in price.
Or I can download Steel Panthers for free and not care what the price of the board games is.
And you get just as enjoyable experience with Steel Panthers as you do with ASL. I know, I own both.

And as I have made abundantly clear, not one computer wargame needs to be paid for. And I truly don’t think one single downloader really cares if the action causes the eventual demise of the source of the game. So let’s just drop all the babble and noble aspirations of wargamers. I have seen the volume of downloading. I know it isn’t true. It is not nice seeing it isn’t true, but that doesn’t alter the truth.

Board style looking wargaming is entering its middle 40’s if you gauge that age on most of the board game style of wargaming originating in the 1960s.
I expect wargaming to be around when I finally give up the ghost.
I don’t expect humanity to suddenly stop having a portion of it stop enjoying the study and recreation of historical moments, simply because a form of technology made it ineffective to indulge it on a computer in a practical commercial fashion.

In 20 years, wargaming might truly have had to return to it’s roots just so it is safe from technology that usurps all capacity to make it financially viable.
I want several wargames right now, this minute. They are on sale, they can be bought online, and they won’t get here unless I buy them and have them mailed to me to my front door. If I want them, my choices do not include downloading them. They are physical objects.
I am not advocating turning back the clock. You can’t go back in time.
Avalon Hill is gone. The label exists, but we all know it is just a label.
This doesn’t mean we can’t go forward by thwarting the downloaders and insisting a wargame is played on a table not a computer.

And for all that think wargames are better easier and more enabling for being on a computer, you are wrong.
The internet has NOT made me closer to you. In fact it has made you further away.
Once upon a time I had to have you as a local accessible friend if I wanted to play the game with someone.
Thanks to games having AIs I don’t even need you at all.
I think AIs are lame, but lame AIs don’t seem to bother most for some reason.
Thanks to electronic gaming, I think the primary reason people have trouble finding opponents, is we have lost the art of making friends in the first place.
When was the last time you went outside with specific intent to meet new people eh?
I have less trouble picking up my board game of choice and finding someone that wants to play, than going online and finding an online opponent I can trust to play the game without resorting to unacceptable practices.
Maybe I am just benefiting from a good personality trait.

It’s time to stop the love affair with the computer and stop hailing it as the savior of wargaming.
That computer might be secretly sucking the life out of your hobby just as easily.
Don’t think it’s true, then I invite you, stick your neck out into the world of online downloading. Go and see for yourself.
You might not like what you see.

[CyberRanger]

If I had to play my wargames on a table (like I did for 5 years when I started in the 70's) instead of the computer, I wouldn't be able to play. The realities of four kids, family, full time job, etc make the PBEM option of computer games the only way I can play.

So, don't wish the end of computer gaming, work to stop piracy.

[Aries]

Hmm work to stop piracy.

Honestly, if today I had the solution, and was able to offer it, two things would occur.

First I would fear for my life due to me becoming a real threat to those that wouldn't appreciate it.

And second, I would likely really clean up financially selling the idea and then promptly probably conveniently make myself "disappear" before anyone could connect me with the idea originally.

Sort of like finding a practical economical solution to the gas buring engine.
I would not expect to make a lot of friends offering it to the public.

Only one child here, but I have the wife and family obligation element.
As for work, well even when a person is free of that hassle, your opponent likely is not.

The only thing I can say in response, is every person needs free time, and it always comes down to how important are YOU in your own life?
No sum of responsibility can produce a viable reason for you not deserving recreation time in a week.
You pick the day, and you make it clear, this is my time off, and woe be to anyone that prefers to tell me otherwise.

A person is more effective when they are rested. And sleep is not the only form of rest.

[Patrocles]

Thanks for taking time to post, Aries.

I love my job and as a workaholic I'm likely in the same boat as Westpointer...minus the kids. I have on my list of fun things-to-do (to try and get back a "life") to visit the local gaming club in Seattle (MSG...anyone here a member?). Like Westpointer, my leisure time has many, many priorities ahead of wargaming. Computer games give me the flexibility to enjoy wargaming at my convenience.

imho, using the comp is not as fun as playing face-to-face with living breathing humans but, it works for me.

On the plus side seeing your post has inspired me to get back with real humans for wargaming...we will see if that is possible in my life.
cheers
:)

[Panzer-War]

So you want PC war games to vanish because you fear it will lead to the end off war games (or the commercial part of it) through piracy or staying solitaire playing the PO? Is this what you are getting at?
I don’t think that PCWGs saved war games, or will lead to the death of war games at least not in my lifetime. As for piracy do we have any figures on how many war games are Illegal copies? As long as the majority of the war gameing community is willing to pay for war games they will continue to be commercially produced. Isn’t there Board WGs that you can download for free I.e. print out the map and the unit symbols and then paste them to cardboard and cut out. As I recall I came across such a site many months ago witch I think they were distributing games there legally. Even if commercial PCWG died you will still have others such as my self that use there free time to create new scenarios and try to improve PCWG. The activity of these forums as well as other sites convinces me that war gameing is not going the way of the dinosaur any time soon.

[Wodin]

Due to the nature of the hobby and those who participate you will always get indy developers making new PC wargames and there will always be a small market for them thats luckly global thanks to the Internet.

I know of three wargames being made by small developers at the moment. If they can survive doing it now they will survive doing it in 20 years time. The only way it will die is if new people aren't attracted to the hobby. My main concern is the lack of knowledge that youngsters worldwide have of WW1 and WW2. Even in the eighties you had kids playing WW2 running around with pretend guns, that doesnt happen anymore, the plastic soldier I'm sure isnt the toy it once was either. This is the biggest threat to the future of wargaming.

[Don Maddox]

There's an old saying, "even the strongest tree must bend with the wind or break." There is a large portion of the FPS crowd that laments the direction games of that particular genre have gone of late too, but games and their development houses are always in a constant state of evolution. There never was and never will be a "Golden Age" when everything was great, then the "young whippersnappers ruined it all!" This is just gaming folklore that we enjoy telling ourselves when we don't see anything on the shelf that tickles our fancy, or we're not satisfied with the number of people choosing to play the particular game we like.

The fact of the matter is the gaming industry is huge, making more money than ever, and for the first time is starting to get people in it that have been professionally trained in game design.

The PC is rapidly replacing other entertainment mediums--including boardgames--and this trend will continue to accelerate over time. As computers get more and more powerful and software tools make programming easier and more efficient, games will continue to evolve at an unprecedented pace. The wargames of 2020 will make what we have now seem almost laughable in hindsight.

"Where have all the good games gone?" I asked in an earlier article. The answer is nowhere, they're still around. But the wargaming genre has taken a big hit because several of the big name developers were forced to close their doors due to market-wide changes such as the soaring price of retail shelf space. Most of the developers were slow to adapt to this change and it hurt them badly or forced them to close. But almost all of the game designers are still out there, they have just been licking their wounds and preparing to come at the market from a new angle. Internet delivered games will soon displace CD-ROMs sold through retail outlets as the preferred method for wargame publishers. This is a good thing as it extends an opportunity for the smaller companies and independent developers to have a fighting chance. So although it's fair to say the wargame market took a hit, it was mostly because of factors that were beyond the control of the publishers and developers. They have now adjusted to this and we're starting to see the market come back to normal.

Wargames aren't going anywhere. Boardgames? Thay may be a different story over the long run, but I think they have some mileage left in them.

[Aries]

Quoting Panmzerwar

"So you want PC war games to vanish because you fear it will lead to the end off war games"

No I don't WANT computer wargames to go away, I am just saying, that they are digital, they are entirely likely to be unsuccessful viable commercial endeavours.

After what I have seen, you're likely never to see my name as a developer producer of anything computer wargame oriented.

If I had the money, and the need to create a wargame, it would be a board game only.

Examples of more recent creations I have found to be darned good examples of solid purchases.
Anything with the Columbia Games logo (take your pick eh).
Neppa Games products (I know them for ETO).
Eagle Games for their Attack!
Avalanche Press for Panzergrenadier

We have companies doing the simple entry level, the tactical and the grand strategy out there currently.

Plus old standbys
MMP for more than just ASL.

The hobby is alive and breathing and not beholding to the computer wargame industry as it's only direction forward.

The only downside of a board game of the above choices, is you have to turn off the friggin computer and actually go out the front door into the fresh air to a friends house occasionally :)

I realise that can sometimes traumatise some computer users heheh.

[pzgndr]

In economics there's something called opportunity cost or some other term. What's it worth to you to buy a genuine product versus a cheap copy? There ARE boardgames available for free download, if you want to find the rules and find the map and counters on CyberBoard or elsewhere. But to print these out and play them still costs some nominal amount and is somewhat less satisfying than just buying the real thing.

The problem with digital media is that it's so easy to copy. Why pay $50 for a pdf manual and game files if you could get the exact same thing for free from some other source? The game companies aren't stupid, so expect to see counter-measures. One technique is to require the CD in the drive to play. This irritates a lot of folks, but it works. Another technique may be to do what MicroSoft does with it O/S software - require registration. One copy per PC id, period. Game companies could do this also, but maybe allow additional PC licenses for limited cost. Or, provide an online game only that requires registration and perhaps ongoing monthly fees to play. And I expect there are other techniques.

It's a business, and an intellectual property copyright issue. If you the customer want something, then it's a fair expectation to pay for the product or service. Cheating wargame designers and game companies who work hard enough as it is for market share in a niche industry is counterproductive if you want better products and services in the future.

[MajorH]

What a weird thread. The TacOps computer wargame has been on the market for over ten years now. It has never been copy protected. It has not been on a traditional retail store shelf in six or so years and yet I still make a pretty decent living off of it via web store sales. It would be ridiculous for me to stop supporting and selling TacOps just because a few cheapskate users obtain it illegally.

Cars get stolen every day - ban cars! Houses catch fire - ban houses! Milk annoys some stomachs - ban milk! Or .... just live and let live. :)

[Secret Agent]

I like computer games as well as boardgames (even though I don't really have a change to play them :) ). They each have thier advantages and disadvantages.

To play TacOps as a boardgame would be HORRIBLE! (2-hour turns as the players try to figure out which unit saw what where, calculate the chances of a hit or miss, and then decide if the enemy vehicle is destroyed or just disabled - not to mention fog-of-war :dead: ....) Fortunately, the computer does all the math. :)

Disadvantages: Coding a simple computer game vs. making up your own boardgames all by yourself.

[Aries]

Quoting Pzgndr

"One technique is to require the CD in the drive to play. This irritates a lot of folks, but it works."

Doesn't work at all actually Pzgndr.

The common choice, is to just get a no cd crack.
But you have to reeeeeeally feel secure, that your downloaded crack doesn't have some built in malicious code or something.
I don't care for that route at all.

I much rather prefer using Alchol 120%.

For some time I have merely copied my game cd, and then used the copy. If the copy comes to grief, who cares, just a cd.
But, the cost to purchase cds now exceeds the value of purchasing blank dvds.
Cds are no longer welcome in my house like they once were.

With Alcohol, I make an image of the cd, and then mount said image on the computer, and when the game asks for the cd, I just tell the computer "that image is the cd".
The computer has no trouble with that.
Once installed, all my wargames go back to being stored in a very secure location of the house.

Thus Pzgndr, cd in drive is quite entirely worthless.
The user does not have to rely on questionable no cd patches either. No need for anything other than the genuine program.

MS has thought of requiring periodic registration.
I can't recall the full explanation my friend provided. Let's just say, MS will never make that fly, and throw that defense in the round file.
Not going to happen.

Puts us back in the pandora's box conundrum. The box (the internet) is opened. And there is not going to be any closing of it.

Board games can't be realistically cost effectively pirated. Anything electronic can.
Whether this becomes "just a cost of doing business" and has to be factored in and lived with, is the real question.

In the retail world, shop lifting is part of doing business.
Just like advertising.

Thus far, I have seen plenty enough very good wargames, likely not really selling as far afield as they might, only because, unless joe consumer is both interested in going online, and savvy enough to know where to look online, then joe consumer loses out on knowing about said good wargaming business.

I consider myself a very knowledgable wargamer. But even that being said, I can count the good online sources I know of on one hand.
I am positive there are hundreds of sources I am just oblivious too.

I am very much sure the world of wargaming exceeds Matrix Games Battlefront Schwerpunct and HPS. But that is what I generally speaking can name easily.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

To play TacOps as a boardgame would be HORRIBLE! .

not really, it would be comparable to the old BattleTech miniatures board game - probably easier since TacOps only uses 2 elevations. (and a squad of infantry aren't 12meters tall :D )

[[5W-SS]Jessica]

Hmmm, Funny I never saw the wargamer community as something was the hugest market. I can count the number of people that I could've played a board game with when I was younger on two hands and most of the time they were never available to play or we would start a great game of something and we would neer be able to finish, You couldn't do the ole leave everything where it is and we will come back later, because in 1 weeks time if we were that lucky to come back to it, the little brother knocked it over or Mom made it get put awayt because the space ws needed to fold laundry. No, no the PC isnt the death of wargames, it is the life. The world isnt what is was just 20 years ago when my brother was pestering me to learn ASL. Since the community of wargamers are somewhat small and niche'd why is it a problem that there are illegally downloadable copies? I don't download them, do you? Who here does? Someone does, or they wouldn't be available for download. I will tell youthat I wish there were some that are not available anymore for download so I can play them online with my friends,....who aren't available to play in person, since they are too busy with life, and then we could save the game and come back to it later without half of the counters being digested in some K-9's stomach.

If you want to avoid piracy of wargames be the one to take the first step, don't download them unless u pay for them and aask your wargaming friends to do the same. It's not like you can't reach a large percentage of the wargame audience just thru a small amount of contacts. I mean there is a finite number of wargame players of this genre. Anyway, taking wargmes completely away from the PC arena because some people want to obtain illegal copies is like ripping up the roads because some people want to drive like idiots. If wargames were no longer playable and made for PC, I probably wouldn't play anymore or maybe a few times if I was lucky. When I discovered that I could play against others online or even against AI (lol, sometimes thats plenty tough for me) I suddenly thought, WOW, I get to play these things again, cool, I dont have to worry about not finishing a game or finding someone to play with or against.

I guess what I am getting at is that to take the wargame out of the PC isnt gonna help anything but create a void that would keep many of us who want to play from playing. Just out of curioutiy, I wonder how many of our play partners have dloaded an illegal copy? Am I the exception? I have bought every single wargame that I own....oh, wait a minute, my brother and father have passed a bunch on to me, but then again they bought them too.

Just this girl's opinion.

[Aries]

I think I have run the gamout of all permutations possible, all accept "bought it on eBay". I definitely don't have that much money.

I have had sooooo many games pass before my eyes, that friends have offered, or tried to offer that is, to me.

Most of them have been the more mainstream, and thus, to my thinking, less likely to be as much wargame, as I require.

A pirated copy of Blitzkrieg for instance, would have zero value to me. So there is no point in giving it to me.

I have found, that regardless of the legalease involved, the second a wargame is truely, and categorically no longer on sale, the semantics involved in "giving it away" lose a lot of their worth to me.

If no one, not one single vendor, not one single source is out there selling the game. Then I refuse to cry over giving it away to a friend that desperately wants a copy.
That might seem wrong to some. But if no one wants to sell it, don't expect me to steadfastly refuse to aid a fellow wargamer.

What bothers me often, is how a lot of good games, are not only no longer on sale, but can't actually really be played any longer.
Short of my setting up a paperweight grade computer running Win 95, I don't expect to ever again see my V4Victory programs running again.
Thus, "giving away" a copy of Gold Juno Sword for that series, seems like a dumb waste of an argument about legality. The games are likely not playable if you bought a computer in the last 5 years.

I look at the download options out there, and I often see files up for download, and really, the first thought that enters my head is, "why the heck does anyone even want it?".

Some games sucked day one of their release. Now they can no longer be played thanks to OS issues or some tech related hassles, and they would still suck like they did on day one. Only now, perhaps even more so.

[CPangracs]

Interesting thread, Aries!

I must disagree with you about not being able to "download" a boardgame right now.

There are sites that have scans of both the front and back of counters and maps as well as the rules for hundreds of wargames, right this second, under the same guise as the computer games, merely as an "assist" to the gaming community. Although many of the counter and map scans are somewhat low-quality, all I need is the information on the counters, and I can fire-up Adobe Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro 9 and recreate those counters and maps even better than the original product! I take that stuff to a decent printing shop and tell them to print the stuff up on 120lb stock and even laminate the whole shebang for less than the original game in mint condition,...or do it all myself for even less.

In addition, with the advent of the computer, I can now take everything good from my favorite computer wargame and easily create hardcopy hex maps and counters to MY specifications! Furthermore, I can take ANYONE ELSES boardgame and improve it to MY liking much easier than I ever could using a computer!

Having said all of that, and being a computer game developer/designer, I understand the frustration people may feel about piracy and such. I hate it as much as the next guy, but it is a fact of life. I would rather a poor kid who can't afford my game at least be able to be exposed to the game and wargaming in general through a pirated copy and maybe appreciate it enough that he may actually buy a copy and support my efforts when he gets a chance, then to never get a chance to wargame at all!

Like Don mentioned, sometimes we have to bend a little so we don't break, which is the ultimate goal. As long as there are people who can't afford something, there will be pirated copies of anything and everything - fact of life.

As for computer gaming being the savior of wargaming in general,...well, I can only hope that computer wargames never go out of style, but continue to evolve with technology, the exact same way board and miniature gaming has evlved, for the simple fact that having even MORE choices in HOW I can wargame is nothing but GOOD news for the genre.

The worst thing we can do as champions of the hobby is DECREASE the number of people we reach, no matter the mechanism!

Curt Pangracs
Designer
Raging Tiger: The Second Korean War

[Aries]

I won't dispute you, that a board game can be pirated in some manner electronically initially.

It clearly can be done. While most game counters are dual sided, plenty of designs don't use dual sided ones.

Advanced Third Reich is a good example of a game with single sided counters, not to much detail load (easier to get a functionally usable print out image under low quality conditions). The map while several colour copies worth, is a fairly low detail complexity load.
There was only two manuals in A3R, but they add up to a fair enough quantity of pages all the same.
The charts and set up cards are not toooo numerous.

But lets examine this matter further.

On eBay, as of this moment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2558&item=5177149944&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
51 bucks current bid (as of the moment I looked).
Shrink wrapped mint copy, doesn't get any better.

vs

Downloaded images that you get to process yourself.
20 some colour copies on ordinary no frills paper. Assumes map and counters here, ball park figure, not running upstairs to actually count.
Plus
Two manuals black and white only to cut costs.

My last visit to a prefessional printer revealed, that my colour copy of my Battles in Normandy manual, had a got them to do it, was going to cost 40 bucks.
We are talking 20 colour copies, plus the two manuals, even in just B&W, at the lowest grade of acceptance. No fancy heavy stock paper here.
This is going to cost you likely as much as just buying the real game.

Or, you can just download a copy of something like a grand strategy computer wargame.

I don't think anyone with much wit, is going to download A3R.
Even though it CAN be done.

Now granted, I too could likely scan my game, then convert modify and otherwise perk it up graphically if I had the time patience and didn't care if the expense was silly.

A pirated copy is not always the answer, or even a solution.

Much greater than frustration with piracy, is my frustration with how no one in our hobby seems really in a hurry to make it "visible".
Advertising isn't cheap.
But invisibility doesn't create sales.

Off of the computer, how much evidence do you find of the existence of our particular brand of wargaming?

I see Playstation this and Xbox that everywhere. It isn't free, but Sony and Microsoft don't wish to be small potatoes.
Is it that we are not interested in being other than a minor niche hidden out of the public mind?

[Wodin]

Much greater than frustration with piracy, is my frustration with how no one in our hobby seems really in a hurry to make it "visible".
Advertising isn't cheap.
But invisibility doesn't create sales.



Very true.

[MajorH]

Much greater than frustration with piracy, is my frustration with how no one in our hobby seems really in a hurry to make it "visible". Advertising isn't cheap.But invisibility doesn't create sales.

The wargame companies that tried expensive advertising are not in business anymore. :)

I see Playstation this and Xbox that everywhere. It isn't free, but Sony and Microsoft don't wish to be small potatoes. Is it that we are not interested in being other than a minor niche hidden out of the public mind?

No, it has nothing to do with "we" - it is all about "them". The overwhelming majority of board and computer gamers do not care for our hobby and will not play the games we prefer so long as any other form of entertainment is available. No amount of exposure of our hobby is going to significantly change that. We are unusual - we are a niche.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

We are unusual - we are a niche.

a well educated niche too. Which immediately puts people off some aspects of the genre. I find, say TacOps, very Intuitive - learn it in minutes, master it never - but it *does* have a hefty manual, and it can overwhelm someone not experienced.

most people would say most wargames (whether board or computer) are similar in complexity.

In the mainstream market, when was the last time you saw a manual go over 30+ pages -> most of which sre screenshots explaining the HUD?

One of the most complex "mainstream" games I can think of is something like Civ3 or EU2 -> and they don't have near as much confusion factor.

Wargamers are smart -> that's been proven time and again. But maybe that's the drawback for designers - you;re never going to get Joe Six-pack picking up a copy of TOAW, but he'll probably be quite happy with a copy of Doom

Grognard for life :D

[Panzer-War]

No, it has nothing to do with "we" - it is all about "them". The overwhelming majority of board and computer gamers do not care for our hobby and will not play the games we prefer so long as any other form of entertainment is available. No amount of exposure of our hobby is going to significantly change that. We are unusual - we are a niche.

I agree with this, ask the average pc gamer what they think of war games and you will likely get one of two answers.
1. What’s a war game
2. Ya I like Call of Duty

Aries what is wrong with the war gameing hobby being a niche this has not hurt the hobby in the last 15 years in my opinion. Hasn’t war gameing pretty much always been a niche?

[Aries]

I should further clarify.

I am not reeeeeeally interested in exposing the hobby to "everyone", simply, because we are indeed a niche.

But how many of you fellow wargamers have been blind sided by a really good wargame, that you only found by extremely random and rarified good luck?

Steel Panthers was made back in like 97.
Yet, even with all this time, and the fact that most of you will agree, the name Steel Panthers is about as well known, as is the name Squad Leader.
Yet, I still see phrases akin to "wow this game is really cool".
And we are left to scratch our head and ponder "where the heck have you BEEN buddy?"

Advertising is NEVER cheap. There is no such thing as inexpensive advertising. But, if you ask me, the only advertising I really see out there, the only advertising I can actually refer to, is Arm Chair General magazine, and company web sites (which if not known, serve no valuable contribution).

When I visit half of these company sites, they often seem stale or even unmonitored. As if the company could care less if anyone looks.

And online sales seeming to be the increasing norm, and this not being limited to computer adaptions of our hobby, I am left to wonder, "what is the key?"

I am no advertising genius, I can't list any major solutions.

But one thing I know, certain types of person are innately predisposed to becoming wargamers, and some not.
A person into nascar likely not, a person into warships probably so.
A person into military history documentaries, probably. A person that reads National Geographic not as likely.

Print media is a form of persistent advertising. Because the advertising is not audio message, it just goes on and on saying the message to anyone that reads it.

I am not advocating TV spots, that is pointless. Radio is to isolated a region in all likelihood.

But Bookclub fliers reach a lot of households.
And the bookclub will either buy lots of stock, or not at all.
They have a superior billing methodology. And they are well set up to handle cost effective shipping and handling.

Finscalemodeller I would assume targets a fairly discerning audience. Surely there must be a good draw in their pages.

This all comes down to , how much company, does a company want to be?
I have come to the conclusion, That Matrix Games wants to sell every reasonably decent wargame under the sun :)
Their approach speaks "we don't want to remain small scale" at least.
I wonder how far afield their actual advertising goes.
Is it entirely electronic?

I DON'T read eMagazines EVER. Maybe that makes me a fluke.
I am NOT interested in the views of mainstream computer publications, because they insist on comparing an X Box game with something entirely focused like War in the Pacific. A greater waste of effort I can't suggest.
Claiming X Box title X is worth say 9.0 and WitP is only worth 7.3, tells me virtually nothing.
I, not being a console gamer, likely could care less what their opinion of the X Box title was. And I only expect a fan would give enough interest, to actually give a fair review of the WitP title.

I am only interested in the thoughts of my peers eh.

PC Gamer, PC Computing, Gamespy and other names I have heard of but don't follow, they don't interest me.
They are mainstream, and I am not.

[Secret Agent]

But how many of you fellow wargamers have been blind sided by a really good wargame, that you only found by extremely random and rarified good luck?


A friend told me to look for Command and Conquer, and I ended up finding DA and TacOps. :D

[jlbetin]

I bought TOAW in 1999, play alone against PO, same year I found that they were many new scenarios on the internet as in the WARGAMER. A problem of TOAW II not working with W2K drive me to contact Warfare HQ in 2003 and then heavens doors opened.

As the IRAQ crisis increase, with French bashing, I got the gambit to define a scenario where US/UK invade France, it was the beginnig of 1 years of bitter reserch on the WEb about modern armies, and step by step I create 5 scenarios, meet WHQ folks get friends discover PBEM, enter ladder, and at last I asked to enter WHQ TOAW staff. All that just just due to one PC Wargame TOAW.

Some like it some not, the truth for me it permited me to work on what I liked, modern armies, to develop new scenarios (latest one will be available soon)
The making of scenario with help of computer was a boost for my personnal life.

With TOAW passion I meet many people with same passion, more than I could meet in Paris, as we are widespread and mostly unknown to eachothers (not speaking of language barreer English must be fluent or well mastered to enter WHQ).

So I don't enter the piracy problem, I hope that some TOAW GPL open source wargame take birth soon.
But the computer opens chance for designing add on as scenarios for TOAW, it permits too through the internet to meet a greater community than a restricted local one.

So I think PC Computer based games are a chance for the world wargaming community

Der WanderTOAWLOVER:love:

[Boonierat]

That's what I like with wargaming, it isn't mainstream. Might sound elitist but it's one of the reason why I enjoy this hobby. It's the same with music, once a band gets famous I'm not interested anymore :smoke:

[RobZagnut]

Wargaming is a niche within a niche. It's never going to be big and no one is ever going to understand why we play. No one gives funny looks to a golfer, snow skiier or fisherman when they explain their hobby, but I'm resigned to the fact that people don't understand.

I was trying to explain to a lady co-worker why I was taking a week off in October to attend ASLOK (ASL Oktoberfest). "You mean other people play this game for a week straight too?" "Well, I'm not actually play ONE game, it's a tournament and I'll be playing 10-15 games of ASL against 10-15 other guys." (Her eyes start to glaze) "Ummm, have fun." (backing away quickly) It's natural for a golfer, skiier or fisherman to take a trip for a week to do their hobby, but try it for games and you're WAY OUT THERE.

Since, I can't explain it. I just do it.

Some have explained that they don't have time to play board wargames, so computers fill the void. I don't like computer wargames. I don't like to play solitaire. I'm a social gamer and must have live opponents/friends to play against. I enjoy it enough to make it a priority. Six of us get together on Friday nights and we play. These guys have become my best friends. It's not hard if you have an understanding spouse (she does book club), you choose to make it a priority and you've got friends who share a common interest in wargames. I can't understand why anyone would rather sit in front of a computer instead of a live thinking, breathing person. A computer will never be a good friend, go camping with you, bring a half-rack of beer to your house or travel with you to compete in a tournament.

[Panzer-War]

Some have explained that they don't have time to play board wargames, so computers fill the void. I don't like computer wargames. I don't like to play solitaire. I'm a social gamer and must have live opponents/friends to play against. I enjoy it enough to make it a priority. Six of us get together on Friday nights and we play. These guys have become my best friends. It's not hard if you have an understanding spouse (she does book club), you choose to make it a priority and you've got friends who share a common interest in wargames. I can't understand why anyone would rather sit in front of a computer instead of a live thinking, breathing person. A computer will never be a good friend, go camping with you, bring a half-rack of beer to your house or travel with you to compete in a tournament.

I don't see why some feel the need to knock Pc War games. Pc War games do have there advantages, PWGs do not just sit around playing the PO sites such as WHQ aid in helping them to find other humans to play as well they do online tournaments. Whether or not playing through the internet it is none the less playing a human opponent.