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Is this a strict Harpoon related section or do you also allow discussion on naval warfare sims and Sonalysts latest/greatest game Dangerous Waters in particular?
It really hooked me anyway. I realisesd that naval warfare is the type of fighting that can be best simulated and brought to the PC. IRL its just sitting and watching LCD´s and PPI´s, handling data links, and DW (from my limited experience) really feel like the real thing. A real mindgame full of tension and hide and seek.
Have anyone here played the complete game yet? I would appreciate a second opinion before i order it.
I bought Janes' Fleet Command, and played it for about a half hour, before I realized that this was pretty much an arcade game, rather than a simulation. Harpoon relies on maps for graphics, and it's main draw, aside from realistic platform modelling, is the very heavy demands on the player to make the right decisions: What course(s) do I set? What speed? What weapons do I load onto my aircraft? How many do I launch? What course, depth, and speed do I select for my attack sub, in order to make a succesful intercept and destruction of an enemy surface group? Every decision you make, is critical to the outcome of the scenario. In Dangerous Waters, you might control at the most, a very small handful of units...in Harpoon, you can control literally hundreds, over thousands of miles of battlespace, encompassing days of manuever and combat.
And a minor(Harpooners would say major)nitpick at Dangerous Waters: most of the Perry FFGs don't even have a Mk.13 missile launcher anymore, which means no ability to shoot down enemy aircraft and incoming cruise missiles, or to launch Harpoons at enemy surface ships. The last two ships carrying these launchers at Mayport Naval Station (where I work at) are having theirs removed now. The ones that still have them, probably don't even have their SM-1 missiles in the magazines anymore.
I can see where the appeal of Dangerous Waters would be, that it has lots of neat graphics, something that Harpoon does not have (and most of us hard core 'Pooners would not want to waste processing power to drive :cheeky: ) I can't advise you on whether or not to purchase it...I'm just a wee bit biased :D
Looks like a good game and have no real comment of value other than to say its nice to see the Fleet Command crowd get a nice replacement. Scope, graphics and features seem about right on.
I bought Janes' Fleet Command, and played it for about a half hour, before I realized that this was pretty much an arcade game, rather than a simulation. Harpoon relies on maps for graphics, and it's main draw, aside from realistic platform modelling, is the very heavy demands on the player to make the right decisions: What course(s) do I set? What speed? What weapons do I load onto my aircraft? How many do I launch? What course, depth, and speed do I select for my attack sub, in order to make a succesful intercept and destruction of an enemy surface group? Every decision you make, is critical to the outcome of the scenario. In Dangerous Waters, you might control at the most, a very small handful of units...in Harpoon, you can control literally hundreds, over thousands of miles of battlespace, encompassing days of manuever and combat.
And a minor(Harpooners would say major)nitpick at Dangerous Waters: most of the Perry FFGs don't even have a Mk.13 missile launcher anymore, which means no ability to shoot down enemy aircraft and incoming cruise missiles, or to launch Harpoons at enemy surface ships. The last two ships carrying these launchers at Mayport Naval Station (where I work at) are having theirs removed now. The ones that still have them, probably don't even have their SM-1 missiles in the magazines anymore.
I can see where the appeal of Dangerous Waters would be, that it has lots of neat graphics, something that Harpoon does not have (and most of us hard core 'Pooners would not want to waste processing power to drive :cheeky: ) I can't advise you on whether or not to purchase it...I'm just a wee bit biased :D
Yeah, Fleet Commander was really about who could click their mouse fastest, targeting ships and incoming missiles and aircraft, as you said plain arcade. No depth, just a glossy surface.
I have played Harpoon alot(but long time ago) and liked the grand scale of it, I had some issues with the realism on some things. The only of those I can remember was the awfully long turn-around time for the aircrafts and the ability to give subs constant orders. (maybe it was an old version)
DW is a more in depth simulation of specific platforms. This means that you only can controll one platform for a mission but what I have found out from the demo is quite enough. The sensor suite is very detailed as I mentioned and it takes alot of thought into classifying contacts. I guess it brings you closer to the action, but its still the kind of mind game that Harpoon offers, but in an other scale and with the focus on different details. Its really like comparing apples to bananas.
As for the wrong weapons on the OH.Perry, I dont have a clue. The only experience I have from that class comes from a barbeque aboard a spannish one. :whist:
I am just hoping for a well organized and supported modding community, because I see potential in this game.
Anyway, thank you for your opinions, I value them!
Also, if you're looking for a forum dedicated to Dangerous Waters, I strongly suggest Subsim:
www.subsim.com
They were part of the games development, I believe, and have a strong forum for Dangerous Waters.
Herman Hum
26 Feb 05, 16:03
Is this a strict Harpoon related section or do you also allow discussion on naval warfare sims and Sonalysts latest/greatest game Dangerous Waters in particular?
I don't think that we will limit ourselves to Harpoon. We are a wargame forum, after all. :)
Please feel free to give us your review of DW or other games as you buy/try them. They will give us a nice contrast to other naval games/simulations.
Thank you all for your help!
Btw, which Harpoon version is the best nowdays?
Herman Hum
27 Feb 05, 04:24
"Best" is very subjective.
I own all three. Paper, Harpoon Classic, and Harpoon 3. Can you be more specific on what you are looking for or what you like?
Things like: How much control do you want? How much flexibility do you want to give the AI?
Like asking if I like Apples or oranges more. :)
"Best" is very subjective.
I own all three. Paper, Harpoon Classic, and Harpoon 3. Can you be more specific on what you are looking for or what you like?
Things like: How much control do you want? How much flexibility do you want to give the AI?
Like asking if I like Apples or oranges more. :)
Ok, all this Harpoon talk made me download the demo for Harpoon 3, and i must admit that i like it. I remember that I had some issues with the interface last time i tried it, and that it just looked like Harpoon 2, which i didnt was that fond of at all.
I am at the moment deciding if I will buy the game or not, and how much spare time it would consume ;)
Herman Hum
27 Feb 05, 06:54
Dang, I knew that I could be convincing at times but this is very nice to hear. I hope that it will consume your every waking moment! :D
Seriously, if you enjoy Harpoon3, then you are in luck because the Multi-player version is currently in closed-Beta testing. So, hopefully, it will be released soon. No time like the present. :cool:
Dang, I knew that I could be convincing at times but this is very nice to hear. I hope that it will consume your every waking moment! :D
Seriously, if you enjoy Harpoon3, then you are in luck because the Multi-player version is currently in closed-Beta testing. So, hopefully, it will be released soon. No time like the present. :cool:
Phew, AGS charge quite alot for their games. I guess its better to wait fro the multiplayer version before I do anything drastic. Thanks for the heads up!
DW looks to be an excellent game, however, many people are having problems running it. The main issues are severe mouse lag and stuttering video and sound effects. I've tried the demo on four different PC's and two different OS's with no luck at all.
I would highly recommend that if you are interested in the game at all, that you try the demo first, to see if you will have any problems running it, if for no other reason. I recall the exact same things happening with FC...
I would highly recommend that if you are interested in the game at all, that you try the demo first, to see if you will have any problems running it, if for no other reason. I recall the exact same things happening with FC...
I have tried the demo on my machine and I have not experienced any of the problems you mention. There are some things that I have issues with in the game, but nothing that a few patches can fix.
I wish I had your luck- this is part of an email I just sent to Jamie Carlson, after spending all day yesterday fiddling with the game and trying to get it to work:
"All four PC's are different, running the gamut from being on the lower end of system requirements, to well over what the recommended requirements are. Four different types of video and audio hardware are represented, and two operating systems (Win 98 and Win 2000 Pro). These problems occurred no matter what settings the game was set at (I tried every combination I could think of on all four PC's). Both serial mice and PS/2 mice were used- I even tried some third party software that boosted mouse polling from ~40 Hertz to ~160 Hertz on the PS/2 mice to see if there was any difference (there wasn't). DirectX 9.0, 9.0b, and 9.0c were used (no difference). I have tried every applicable suggestion on the Battlefront forums, with no success at all."
I don't want to turn this thread into a tech support feature for DW, just saying try before you buy, is all...
Like I said before, Subsim had a hand in Dangerous Waters. It has a forum dedicated to Dangerous Waters, and I believe that you'll find people that will information regarding technical "issues"
And no, I personally don't have a problem with discussing Dangerous Waters in this forum :laugh: , I just believe that the folks at Subsim are quite a bit more qualified to talk about it than anywhere else, given that they were past of the development.
Herman Hum
27 Feb 05, 13:57
Phew, AGSI charge quite a lot for their games. I guess its better to wait fro the multiplayer version before I do anything drastic. Thanks for the heads up!
I don't think that you need to postpone your pleasure of playing Harpoon. :laugh: The MP version has not even gone to Open Beta testing yet so it could still be awhile.
In the past, AGSI has stated that it would 'take care' of their existing Harpoon3 clientele by offering the MP patch at a very reasonable price. I'm not an AGSI representative, but I seriously doubt that you are going to be at a disadvantage by starting with the current version of Harpoon3 and then getting the MP patch.
You can ask them directly at: http://www.advancedgaming.biz
griffitz62
27 Feb 05, 14:23
I got my full copy of DW yesterday in the mail and was up until the early morning playing it. I haven't had any problems running it, but I do have a very powerful system.
You should definitely get the demo and make sure it will play well on you system and that you like it. This is certainly not a run around and blow things up kind of game. I've been in the US Navy for 17 years and counting and it is a lot like standing a watch on a ship. It takes a lot of patience and skill to be able to track, ID and classify targets. However, when you succeed it is very rewarding and a lot of fun.
I was playing with my friend using the Co-Op Multiplayer mode and that was really cool. We were both in a P-3C and he ran the Acoustic station and I flew and operated the MAD sensor. We have a voice system setup and it really felt like we were there. The game supports up to 30 players so I can only imagine what it would be like playing that way.
Anyway, I love it and would recommend it if this is your kind of game. Get the demo and see for yourself. Enjoy.
Ken
Hey Hub,
I'm running the DW demo no problems at all. I have XP Home Edition, Nvidia FX5600 XT, 512 mb RAM, 2.26 ghz. DX9.0c. FYI, dude.
Regards,
RedMike
Actually comparing DW to "Harpoon" is like comparing "Steel Beasts" to "TacOps" or "Panzer Elite" to "Steel Panthers". One is a simulator of military hardware in a 3D battlefield, the other is a tactical wargame.
"Fleet Command" was a poor man Harpoon, but it was understimated too: it provided the means to manage a full modern naval battlefield around a platform sim. Sonalyst built from there, first adding two other subs to the original 688i, and now adding a Perry, a Seahawk and an Orion. Beside, having a Perry now gives more sense to missions including F-14s buzzing overhead and Backfires - not something you usually bothered about when you were in a sub :o)
Regarding the SM-2 on Perry, Sonalyst made clear that it was for playability purposes (like the MAD on all the Seahawks) - and one can simply choose not to use the launcher in the first place. But I think that maybe there is another reason: SC was very moddable, and it spawned the SCX series of mods which added a lot of new platforms, both driveable and AI controlled. By having the code for firing and managing missiles already in place, it is possible that Sonalyst is making easier for modders to implement other missile-firing platforms, like a Tico or a Spruance.
I don't think that you need to postpone your pleasure of playing Harpoon. :laugh: The MP version has not even gone to Open Beta testing yet so it could still be awhile.
It is soon but great care is being taken in making sure its ready for Open Beta Testing. Quality comes first. Almost all involved play the game so it is important to get it right.
In the past, AGSI has stated that it would 'take care' of their existing Harpoon3 clientele by offering the MP patch at a very reasonable price. I'm not an AGSI representative, but I seriously doubt that you are going to be at a disadvantage by starting with the current version of Harpoon3 and then getting the MP patch.
You can ask them directly at: http://www.advancedgaming.biz
It is not a patch :laugh: so probably shouldn't be advertised that way. Have no idea on the pricing schema yet (not my dept) however AGSI will always be fair.
"Fleet Command" was a poor man Harpoon, but it was understimated too...
You forgot to mention the multiplayer option, that was the only feature besides the glossy surface that it had, that where better than the Harpoon games. The realism was however often a nightmare, but on well modelled customs scenarios it usually meant some quite interesting multiplayer games.
I have been reading through some initial AAR:s of multiplayer engagements on DW and it sounds fantastic.
How much boost do you think multiplayer will add to the Harpoon community?
Herman Hum
01 Mar 05, 04:29
How much boost do you think multiplayer will add to the Harpoon community?
W.A.G. but probably exponentially! :laugh:
W.A.G. but probably exponentially! :laugh:
I guess its high confidence on that assesment. :D
I wonder if some group ever will have the stamina to play out the entire WWIII alá "Red Storm Rising" in real time.
LOL
90 days of constant ops? Imagine that! You'd need to pull watches! 6 and 6 or 4 and 8? :cheeky:
Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin
http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/daleh/avatars/vcdh.jpg
Would really like to hear more about Dangerous Waters though particular from an AAR. Think you could post some?
LOL
90 days of constant ops? Imagine that! You'd need to pull watches! 6 and 6 or 4 and 8? :cheeky:
Dale Hillier
AGSI RD&T
Harpoint Admin
People waste their lives in MMPORPG´s all over the world, so why shouldnt be OK to do the same with a naval warfare sim? A well thought out schedule, a function handover system and a understanding army of spouses... well, why not? :D
Would really like to hear more about Dangerous Waters though particular from an AAR. Think you could post some?
There is a good MP AAR over at Subsim.
link (http://www.subsim.com/subsim_reviews_index.html)
I havent seen any other worth mentioning, yet.
I guess its high confidence on that assesment. :D
I wonder if some group ever will have the stamina to play out the entire WWIII alá "Red Storm Rising" in real time.
Well, we already had a short tactical-level campaign using H3 and some other stuff (playing "multiplayer-by-proxy") which worked well, and we're now prepping its bigger theater-level offspring. So you can say we're getting there :cool:
You linked me to Pirates but I think I found what you were trying to point me to. Any articles or AAR's done by actual gamers or maybe even yourself? Not that I distrust subsim etc at all, I just like hearing from normal Joe's too:)
Thanks
There is a good MP AAR over at Subsim.
link (http://www.subsim.com/subsim_reviews_index.html)
I havent seen any other worth mentioning, yet.
...I just like hearing from normal Joe's too:)
No offence taken! ;)
As soon as I will get my copy (hopefullt sooner than later) I will post an AAR here in the forum.
As soon as I will get my copy (hopefullt sooner than later) I will post an AAR here in the forum.
Great and thank you :)
HercMighty
01 Mar 05, 12:21
It is soon but great care is being taken in making sure its ready for Open Beta Testing. Quality comes first. Almost all involved play the game so it is important to get it right.
It is not a patch :laugh: so probably shouldn't be advertised that way. Have no idea on the pricing schema yet (not my dept) however AGSI will always be fair.
There is a patch for HP3 3.7 I think that is supposed to be coming out. The MP version coming out the only difference between it an 3.7 will be the MP aspect correct? Or are there other changes going into the MP version that would make worth buying it and playing solo?
Regards
There is a patch for HP3 3.7 I think that is supposed to be coming out. The MP version coming out the only difference between it an 3.7 will be the MP aspect correct? Or are there other changes going into the MP version that would make worth buying it and playing solo?
Regards
Yeah we are in beta for 3.7 now. Lots of fixes have been made. Stay tuned for more info on that. Really not trying to be vague on this just haven't accumulated all the fixes into one huge edited list and until final testing passes its not really fair to anybody to do that.
In terms of MP solo play you probably shouldn't buy it if you don't want to play MP'er. 3.7 and MP will basically be the same in terms of Harpoon game play, bug fixes etc. with the difference being mp will incorporate alot of functional things that just make sense for a multiplayer game.
Herman Hum
01 Mar 05, 14:38
I wonder if some group ever will have the stamina to play out the entire WWIII alá "Red Storm Rising" in real time.
I hereby accept your challenge. :laugh:
There are already quite a few scenarios for the SP version that designers have created to simulate some of the RSR functions. Freek Schepers made one to resemble Operation Dreamland. It's called 1stBlood and it's posted here (http://www.warfarehq.com/archives/).
Hmmm....Red Storm Rising...Multiplayer....Yup, I'll take the Russian subs. You take out Keflavik and SOSUS, I'll shut down Reforger for ya. There'll be so many sunk ships, the tanks could make it to Le Harve across their sunken backs :cheeky:
Seriously, once upon a time, I helped Brad set up the wolf packs of Red subs in the Global Thunder MBX...and if I recall, we didn't do too bad (even if the umpires did have a large bias towards NATO, and that was only because we spanked NATO so bad, they had to do something to keep the other side in the game :p _
And a minor(Harpooners would say major)nitpick at Dangerous Waters: most of the Perry FFGs don't even have a Mk.13 missile launcher anymore, which means no ability to shoot down enemy aircraft and incoming cruise missiles, or to launch Harpoons at enemy surface ships. The last two ships carrying these launchers at Mayport Naval Station (where I work at) are having theirs removed now. The ones that still have them, probably don't even have their SM-1 missiles in the magazines anymore.
:D
I am no expert when talking about modern naval warfare but I know that Sonalysts has added some weapons on their platforms that has been obsolete by the navy for playability reasons. In DW both the harpoons and SM-2 are available on their FFG and the SM-2 works very well against incomming missiles.
I find the game very interesting and Jamie (Sonalysts) are very helpfull in tracking some of the bugs reported by the gamers. Sonalysts are also very forthcoming when it comes to a wishlist for next version since many from the community has served active duty on some of the platforms available.
The single player mode appears to be bug free but there are some issues when it comes to multiplayer which happens to CTD when there are more than 6 players. I am confident that Sonalysts are doing what ever it takes to located and fix these bugs.
If interested in trying DW in a multiplayer environment look me up on icq 20447711 or try IRC, Quakenet.org #Dangerous-waters
I got an idear!
What if we created a mission suitable for an AAR?
Most missions available are very action "minded" with little respect to S&D. We could create our own mission with the focus of being suitable of an AAR. Also we could keep it quite simpel to narrow the chances of a CTD (only three players).
If we could agree on it we could create a mission with the focus on being played within 2-3 hours. This would also add some tactical decisions for the players to make. Far most well planned missions available ends after only one hour of gameplay to respect family life ;)
I got an OOB suggestion for our mission:
1 x FFG (playable)
1 x MH-60 (playable)
1 x Mini Sub (non-playable)
1 x SSN-688(i) (non-playable)
1 x Akula (playable)
I had chosen the Akula since it got the capability of launching the SS-N-16 Stallion. This brings long range capability to red side and the EW detection aspect to blue forces.
The civilian sub is to prevent any from firing with out proper narrow band analysis.
The map of choise should be some one in open sea including both narrow waters, deep sea and multiple layers.
The mission goal could be for blue to escort a friendly SSN-688(i) with failure to her cooling system back to port and for red to prevent this for happening.
If any one are interested I could create the mission by the end of this week.
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