North German Plain or Flashpoint Germany?

[foster]

I am thinking of picking up either North german plan or flashpoint germany, but cant decide does anyone here own both games by any chance, and if so what game would you recommend? I have played Tillers games before and enjoy them, does matrix games make good products also? I would be greatfull for any feedback. thanks

[D-ploy]

I have both games and can comment on the differences, but you have decide what you like best. My list may not be exhaustive and definitely reflects my personal preferences.


NGP has IGO-UGO, FPG has WEGO
NGP has a map that is true to reality, FPG has fantasy maps that nevertheless looks more like the German countryside
The NGP map is huge, FPG maps are a lot smaller
NGP has three hour turns, FPG turns are 30 min at most
NGP is a game from a mature series, FPG is completely new
The NGP interface is difficult for a beginner, the FPG interface is clumsy (although I expect that an upcoming patch will fix this)
In NGP you have near complete control over what your units will do, in FPG you give orders and your units do their best to follow them.
NGP has a decent AI, the verdict on the FPG AI is still out
NGP seems to be quite balanced (although I never played the full campaign), FPG seems to have some issues here
In NGP you get them most fun out of playing the full campaign, but depending on your personal schedule this can take months. In FPG there is no campaign but scenarios and they take only hours to complete and may even be shorter.
NGP has an editor which lets you edit everything but the map. FPG has no editor so far (but the programmer announced one being made available), but you can setup quick battles where you choose the forces that fight each other.


These are the major differences from my point of view. Personally, I like the Modern Campaigns games from HPS because they are very well designed, but I have to make room in my schedule before I start one of the larger scenarios. FPG is easier on my schedule but has some quirks that take some fun out of it right now, although I understand from the Matrixgames forum that a patch is forthcoming that may remove some of the issues.

Cheers
Oliver

[Glenn Saunders]

> The NGP interface is difficult for a beginner,

I don't agree with this part of the statement - the game ships with a STARTED.HLP file and a STARTED Scn which is designed to get you play.

I'd be happy to EMAIL this started.HLP file to anyone interested in seeing how it looks and let them judge for themselves if the interface is hard or not. I think it is pretty simple, but then again I've been playing Tiller games since Battleground Gettysburg and Tiller has a style that is similar. So anyone how can play, say Panzer Campaigns can pick up something like Campign 1776 and see similar concepts in the interface, common buttons ect and wouldn't take long to swithc from one game to another.

That said, you still need to read the rules at some point. I recall one reviewer of the Market-Garden 44 game who said he couldn't figure out how to launch an airstrike - clearly he didn't play the started Scn or attampt to read the Rule Section n Air Power - I guess he didn't try very hard to understand how the game worked at all.

Anyway - if the original poster wanted to see the Started File and maybe even the Designer Notes from NGP I can either email them or put them on the FTP server so they can see what they think.

Glenn
gcsaunders@shaw.ca

[dannybou]

Got to agree with Glenn. Also been playing since Gettysburg, Waterloo and Napoleon in Russia (still have them actually). The interface is self explanatory.

[D-ploy]

Oops, OK, I did not want to step on anyones toes here. It seems that my statement was a little bit on the short side so I will elaborate a bit more, to make it fair.

The interface of the PzC games is difficult for a beginner, but it is very good for prolonged play, so once you get used to it (and the keyboard shortcuts) you can use it very efficiently.

The FPG interface on the other hand has some features that make it easy for a beginner to use (like a right-click context menu), but I am missing some keyboard shortcuts, that would come in handy after a while to speed up playing.

To Glenn and Danny: Thanks for calling me on that, my initial statement might have been unclear. I hope you can better live with this longer explanation. My statement is based on remembering my first game of FG85, where it took me some time to figure out the interface and I played the tutorial to learn it. With FPG I did not play the tutorial, since I could use the interface right away. This might be due to me having more experience with wargames today or the interface of FPG is easier to understand. I think it is a bit of both, but I also believe that a right-click context menu is very natural for a Windows-user to use.

Having said that I do not think that the user interface should keep anybody from playing either game. In both games you will spend most of your time thinking, like a commander would, what to do with your units and not thinking about how to tell them.

Cheers
Oliver

[Glenn Saunders]

Hey D-ploy - no toes stepped on here my friend. As you played the game and found the Interface tricky to get used to - that is a valid statement to make - just one that is openned to interpretation and not something that can be taken as a general statement.

If the original poster wants to contact me, I'll be happy to show him what we have in terms of the HLP and the Started Scn and let him judge for himself.

In any case, post as you see fit - call it as you see it and you can't go far wrong. I've found this forum to be one of the very best where a person can speak their mind and others can disagree with opinions, impression and such things in a manner that is much more civil than some places that I;ve been to and others I've given up going to.

Glenn

[MKSheppard]

Flashpoint Germany from what I hear is what Point of Attack 2 should have been.

I know that POA2 has been massively improved since its release,
but it's still impossible for me to play a completely random
battle on one of the new maps by Don Maddox.

[tinjaw]

Flashpoint Germany from what I hear is what Point of Attack 2 should have been.

I know that POA2 has been massively improved since its release,
but it's still impossible for me to play a completely random
battle on one of the new maps by Don Maddox.I'm not sure that FG and POA2 are, or were designed to be, for the same audience. I believe that FG is intended to please a large spectrum of wargamers from average to intermediate to advanced. While POA2 is targeted solely to the advanced and up (to "professional" wargamer) range.

I own Fulda Gap '85 and plan to soon buy NGP '85. I have owned POA2 for several months, but am only just now attempting to learn it. I just bought Flashpoint Germany yesterday and haven't yet installed it. I'll post some comparisons in a few weeks after I get some time in on each of the systems.

[Glenn Saunders]

I look forward to hearing what you have to say after you get time in all the games and make sure once you get NGP you update to the newest ver from the HPS Website and then drop by my website to get the two GERMANY Expansion Package.

Glenn

[Don Maddox]

... make sure once you get NGP you update to the newest ver from the HPS Website and then drop by my website to get the two GERMANY Expansion Package.

Glenn
I still haven't downloaded that yet. I need to do it.