REFORGER in the context of FG'85 and NGP'85

[Arnhem]

I guess this question goes out to Glenn and the other scenario designers of the 'official' scenarios more than anyone else but anyone can feel free to chime in.

My question is, why isn't REFORGER a feature of the official campaign scenarios? REFORGER stands for REturn of FORces to GERmany right? I can't remember much but the equipment for these units would already have been in storage in continental Europe so it was just a matter of flying the personnel in. Considering that the campaign covers 2 weeks of game time, REFORGER units would defintely have been able to deploy in this time frame. Was this a game balance issue or was is there another reason?

And while I'm at it, what units from CONUS were tasked to this during the time period covered by the 2 MC games?

Cheers
Chris

[Joao Lima]

from wikipedia:

"Exercise REFORGER (REturn of FOrces to GERmany) was an annual exercise conducted, during the Cold War, by the United States Army. The exercise was intended to ensure that the United States had the ability to quickly deploy forces to Germany in the event of a conflict with the Soviet Union. The exercise was begun in 1967, as some forces were withdrawn to back to the U.S. mainland, and continued past the end of the Cold War, to 1993. REFORGER was not merely for show—in the event of a conflict, it would be the actual plan enacted. In that instance, it would have been referred to as Operation REFORGER. Important components in REFORGER included the Military Airlift Command, the Military Sealift Command, and the Civil Reserve Air Fleet."

I'm not sure if you are not talking about "Prepositioned Equipment", this were dumps of equipment that would allow the forces to be quickly fighting after being flown in, an example was the one available on north Scandinavia to serve the 3rd (?) Marine...

[Arnhem]

Hiya JL,

Yep, I'm talking about the prepositioned stuff, if it was a matter of flying the troops over to mate with the hardware then the campaign game with it's 2 week plus time frame should be more than able to accomodate REFORGER. Since Glenn drops by once in a while, I'm just taking the chance to ask why REFORGER units weren't modelled in Germany '85. It was a slow day at work....sue me :D

[Combatengineer]

Hiya JL,

Yep, I'm talking about the prepositioned stuff, if it was a matter of flying the troops over to mate with the hardware then the campaign game with it's 2 week plus time frame should be more than able to accomodate REFORGER. Since Glenn drops by once in a while, I'm just taking the chance to ask why REFORGER units weren't modelled in Germany '85. It was a slow day at work....sue me :D

During the high point of the late 1980's the Army had 5 divisions worth of equipment stored in POMCUS (Equipment configured into actual MTOE sets, not just stored by like items). The equipment was mostly in the Netherlands and westcentral Germany. Some estimates put the first division drawing these stocks in combat 10 days after hostilities.

[Glenn Saunders]

The answer here is speed. The Reforger Exerciser we designer to combat a situation where units had to quickly redeploy to Europe in time of heighten tention.

But the premise of this war - as written by Bill Trotter (Formerly "the Desktop General" at PC Gamer) was that one day the Warsaw Pact just marched out of their barracks with complete surprise.

The entire campaign from opening shot to the end of the Nato Counter Offense is only 16 days - not really very long at all when you consider the complete surprise this attack assumes.

In any case, I should point out to you that this was an idea that I wasn't involved in hatching and was the basis for the Fulda Gap game which I helped test, but wasn't in on the design really. Now North German Plain is of course something I had a lot to do with be we simply kept with the same story and in fact used this story line for the conflict depicted in Korea '85 too.

So to answer your question, I think the original designers thought the Reforger units would begin to mobilize and deploy BEFORE the outbreak of hostilities and that some period of tension.

That said, if you feel adding units to the game and improving the Campiagn or making any cool Scns would be of interest, I'd be happy to host them.

Glenn

[Glenn Saunders]

Further - in support of my previous post - here is an excerpt from HACKETTS The Third World War: August 1985

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"The bogey of an all-out attack on Allied Command Europe by forces of the Warsaw Pact, planned in total secrecy and carried out with complete surprise by forces already in place, with the aid of massive under-cover operations prepared with absolute security, was not the sort of thing to give sensible men sleepless nights in the years before the war - though it might not have been sensible wholly to disregard the possibility. Much more likely, Allied planners thought, was what actually happened: the implementation of well-prepared contingency plans, involving a high degree of preparation, as crises developing elsewhere showed signs of moving out of control.

Unlikely though it may have been, a surprise attack by in-place forces of the Warsaw Pact would have found Allied Command Europe so ill prepared that its early success could hardly have been in doubt, whether the French came in on the Allied side or not. The US Army in Europe had not yet fully recovered from the Vietnam experience. It was becoming accustomed to the absence of the draft but was already running into serious and unexpected difficulties over reserves a~ a result of ending it. Stocks which had been run down for the Israeli war were only slowly being replaced. The 'Reforger' system, by which formations would be flown in from the continental United States to marry up with equipment pre- stocked in the Federal Republic, though already showing great promise, had not yet been as fully developed as in the years to come. "

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...and there you have it - Hackett was of course one of the men with the British Airborne in Arhem 1944 and was a respected if not controversial leaders of such "think tank" issues although some argue his positions were more out to fear politians into spending more money.

Bottomline - one could take it or leave it and in this game when you consider the big picture more units wouldn't make the game better. As it is a what if War anyway - if there is support of both sides of a debate, pick the one that best suits your needs I'd say.

Hope this helps, but the offer to host any further scns or work on my website still stands of course, if you or anyone is interested. There sure is plenty of room for different opinions.

Glenn

[Arnhem]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the reply, helps fill up the blanks. As for scenario design, I'll just stick to playing and paying for the result of the blood and tears you guys expend in getting these games out for now, unless of course if Singapore/Malaya '41 is somewhere on the horizon.....

Chris

Chris

[Don Maddox]

REFORGER was for Germany what Team Spirit was for Korea. I have two Team Spirit coins to my credit. Some of the most miserable training ever. Man that brings back some memories. All bad . . . :nervous: :sigh1: