Air support with rain and fog???

[British Tommy]

Been busy converting a Talonsoft East Front scenario into a CMBB scenario. The original scenario had bad weather but with Russian air support. In CMBB, you can only have air support when using clear weather ( or have I read this wrong?? ).
Anyway, I set up the scenario with clear weather and Russian air support but due to various LOS ( line of sight ) within in the scenario I had to change the weather to rain and fog to reduce LOS across the map. Tried the scenario against the AI and was shocked when I heard the planes! :surprise: ( a dive bomber and a fighter, both scored hits! ).
Only thing I can think of, I saved the scenario with clear weather and air support then opened up the scenario using the editor again , changed the weather to rain and fog and saved it again.
Have I found something here? :rolleyes:
Looking forward to your comments! :salute:

[Palantir]

As far as I know they only appeared in clear weather but I didn't run any weather tests.

HOWEVER- I have run CMBB Airstrike tests vs vehicles for both Soviet & German aircraft, each test was ran at least 10 times.
Some of my tests covered:
A. Multipile tank types on open terrain / in mixed terrain, all moving / all sitting / combination.
B. Tanks and light vehicles " / " /" / etc
C. One high value unit with multipile low value units, moving / sitting etc. & One low value with multipile high value.
D. Tests involving LOS with All levels of INF HQ's to see if that increased airstrike hits. (no help at all)

My results & as best as I can tell:

1. Does the Air reinforcment marker location (friendly N/E/S/W) affect air strikes in any way (either across or down) no it doesn't.
2. Is a non-moving vehicle a "better" target than a moving target to an air strike. No it isn't (however, see #6 below).
3. Does sitting a vehicle in scattered trees reduce the chance of an air strike- yes it does.
4. Does sitting on a road increase the chance of being hit by an airstrike over sitting in other terrain- no it doesn't
5. Do airstrikes pick high value targets over low value targets when together (plt of Tiger & 1/2T's and T34/85's & AC's)- NO THEY DON'T! Tests showed a ridiculous but balanced rate of @50% of stupid target selections- one test of a lone AC with 5 T-34's resulted in 1 dead AC!
6. Will airstrikes "re-target" missed or previously immobilzied airstrike targets- yes they do, with frequency. The same plane with multipile airstrikes seems to lock-on to certain units and repeatedly goes after them be they tanks or light vehicles.
7. Is there any difference in Air crew experience in "hits"- none that I could tell.
8. Does the "enemy" units location on a map make a diference in targeting. YES and NO. Airstrikes seem to avoid the edges, roughly to about 100m in (not much but hey I noticed it). However they will also fly right over the same exact type of target for one sitting on the other side of the map. Strikes happened equally in all sections.
9. Does throwing in a plt of enemy Inf effect airstrikes- probably it does. Having INF in the open in my opinion pulled off a strike vs the armor units. However this was the very last test I could stand doing at this point and nothing seemed to make a dang bit of difference anyway as far as pinning down airstrikes- so I went to bed!


Air units are in my opinion:

Simply very random, hope for the best but expect nothing if you buy them units. They can either wipe out a moving Tiger plt with a few passes or, they will try like hell dropping everything but the kitchen sink on an elusive Ba64.

In a designed scenario the designer loses "nothing" in throwing them into the mix. They will either do nothing of value or possibily tip the scenario (if you design that in) if they should target those high value units.

But in a purchse your own units game- I wouldn't waste the points. You can't even count on the # of strafes you will get. I'd rather buy some AT weapons or ARTY. At least you can control them.

{I've also ran extensive tank vs tank tests- but that is for my personal usage! :devil: Problem is I spend all of my time designing & doing these silly tests & not playing! :laugh: }

PS. there may be designed CM algorithims for this stuff somewhere that proves me wrong but I wanted to see actual game results. I'm satisfied... ;)

:salute:

[The Purist]

Well,...Palantir, I for one am absolutely thrilled with the randomness of air strikes. I know we would all like to think that our Typhoons or Sturmoviks or whatever are patiently circling above, waiting to be called in to strike that perfect target with pinpoint accuracy at exactly the right moment,...but that would be very ahistorical. Hans Ulrich Rudel grossly overstated his effectiveness with his super-Stuka.

Air support on the front line was never, ever all that effective during WWII, but you wouldn't know that by reading the mass media publications and continual perpetuation of the myth. Somewhere around here (in the WWII forum) a chap posted a study carried out by the western allies on the effectiveness of the tens of thousands of fighter bomber sorties carried out between June and Aug 25, 1944 (the entire Normandy Campaign). The jist of it came out to state that of the 100,000+ sorties less that 100 German tanks were knocked out by direct attack, that is MG/Cannon, bomb or rocket attack. The aircraft were quite effective against bridges, crossroads, trucks (strafing) and artillery batteries but quite ineffective against armoured vehicles.

I am not at all surprised that air units are not all that effective in the CM games,...in fact I am quite pleased.

[Palantir]

I am not at all surprised that air units are not all that effective in the CM games,...in fact I am pleasantly surprised.

I agree, if they were really effective and you could "count" on what they would & wouldn't do once they appeared then you'd have players buying entire airwings!

I remember someone once questioning the worth of buying planes, and having time back then I ran the tests. So of course I kept thinking, "Well if they spot "this" in the open surely they will attack it, what about a plt of Tigers, then AC's, a mixture, moving, etc etc." It just kept growing as I looked for some pattern.

There is a pattern- randomness. The bottom line is they are wild cards & you just don't know what they will do. I would rather buy ground units that I can control- for much less cost & better effectiveness.

Now, if I can just get them to attack in fog... :nuts:

[Palantir]

I should add that in a 70+ turn scenario as Soviets that has had numerous friendly airstrikes almost every strike has missed their intended target. To show the randomness (and uselessness) of planes we had TWO strikes fly over a close-formation of 5 Hvy German tanks and attack (and miss) some 1/2T's all the way across the map. UUGGHH!

[British Tommy]

VERY impressed with your testing of air units Palantir! Well worth noting this when building a scenario.
The point I was trying to make though, you can't select planes in the unit editor when the weather conditions are bad BUT, if you set the weather conditions as clear, select air support then save the scenario then open it up again, change the weather to rain and fog ( as I did ) and again save the scenario, then you will have the planes turn up during the battle!
Upon checking the scenario again with the editor, no planes were listed!
So it seems by saving the scenario when the weather conditions are clear, then opening up again and changing the weather conditions, you can have air support when the manual says you can't!!
Just wondered if anyone else spotted this?
I'm willing to send you or anyone else who's interested the scenario so you can see what I mean :-)

[Palantir]

If I get time I'll try this weather switch.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

VERY impressed with your testing of air units Palantir! Well worth noting this when building a scenario.
The point I was trying to make though, you can't select planes in the unit editor when the weather conditions are bad BUT, if you set the weather conditions as clear, select air support then save the scenario then open it up again, change the weather to rain and fog ( as I did ) and again save the scenario, then you will have the planes turn up during the battle!
Upon checking the scenario again with the editor, no planes were listed!
So it seems by saving the scenario when the weather conditions are clear, then opening up again and changing the weather conditions, you can have air support when the manual says you can't!!
Just wondered if anyone else spotted this?
I'm willing to send you or anyone else who's interested the scenario so you can see what I mean :-)

yes this is true. its a glitch in the system, a way to trick CM into thinking its nice wheather when it really isnt and it works every time. ive read other posts on this before, on other forums. it might evn be in the manual if im not mistaken, but i could be wrong, cant remember.

BTW, there are lots of aipower bugs in the game, this is just one of them.

[Palantir]

Interesting information, not sure it means much since the randomness of airpower is in deed so "random."

Although if used in a non-clear weather scenario it would be a big surprise.

Anyone have any ideas on how to use this productively in a scenario?

[KGPanzerschrecK]

i think at least theoreticaly speaking, you should be allowed under outstanding circumstances, airpower in a light rain / light snow scenario. representing a so called "break in the weather" or to design that "badly needed air support were its needed" type scenario around such an idea. its at the very least a fresh new idea for a new kind of scenario....

[ER_Chaser]

The BIGGEST surprise for me is that you found the crew exp of bombers has NOTHING to do with HIT ratios.
Then what is that exp good for anyway?

[KGPanzerschrecK]

The BIGGEST surprise for me is that you found the crew exp of bombers has NOTHING to do with HIT ratios.
Then what is that exp good for anyway?

Its there for the uninitiated to waste valuable points on! :nuts:

[Palantir]

Or that one last desperate hope that it might help!

When it does work it is rather cool to see a tank blowup after a strafing run.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Who needs to be an elite pilot anyway when your pumping out rounds from an HS-129 equiped with a pak 75! :devil:

[ER_Chaser]

but how about firing Panzerschrecks from Il-2M3? :D

[Neilm85uk]

Hi all,

I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a thought. I've played a couple of games v the AI, as I'm a newb, and used air support. Each time my 'green' pilots have attacked my own side. Maybe experience helps the pilots attack the enemy rather than 'friendly firing'.

Neil

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Hi all,

I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a thought. I've played a couple of games v the AI, as I'm a newb, and used air support. Each time my 'green' pilots have attacked my own side. Maybe experience helps the pilots attack the enemy rather than 'friendly firing'.

Neil

Ive had Veteran and Crack planes do the same thing. it may have something to do with it, but its probably not the most determining factor...

[Victor Charlie]

Does dawn or dusk reduce spotting/attacks for planes? I did run some tests then but could see nothing definite one way or the other.

[Palantir]

I've noted NOTHING that affects Airstrikes- direction, unit type, experience, nothing.

It's so haphazard as to be totally random & next to useful! LOL!

For example - I ran the same "AS test" on a test map 10 times and got 10 seperate results (or non-results).

In another test the AS hit a plt of 3 PzIV's on a hill top knocking out 2, running it again it attacked a 1/2track in scattered trees instead, the next a plt of Inf in a field... Go figure.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

I guess you can sum up air strikes with this sentance. They could be the best points you ever spend in a battle or a total wasteof them. :confused: