A Defense

[KG_AGCent]

I am amazed at the vitriol I recieved from those presenting themselves to offer rebuttals to the information given in the CMBB Manual thread. Some of you seem perfectly happy living life on the edge of being insulted.

In order to shed light through the dark, mysterious and inuendo shrouded passages of my post, I will explain it.

"I believe the European version of CMBB shipped with an electronic version of the manual."
- Duh!

"Fortunately I am NOT in Europe (France in particular) and I recieved a full printed manual."
- I was merely expounding upon the CDV requirements for packaging that I recall reading about in the BF forums when the printed/electronic manual hubbub arose. Also, that which went unwritten, I live in America and recieved a full printed manual. For this I am grateful not to be living in Europe. I thought this would have been made clear by the American Flag next to my name on the left hand side of my post. As to the "French" part... , some things are best left a mystery. But suffice it to say that my great uncle is buried there near one of their nice English Channel beaches. I am also a Marine and a Desert Shield/Storm and Enduring Freedom veteran and am grateful to our european allies who have supported my nation. Enough said.

"Perhaps one of the socialists would be kind enough to pony up a copy for you."
- It is no secret that European "democracies" are socialist states. Who'da thunk calling a crumpet a crumpet would wrinkle so many knickers. Either there is a serious lack of a sense of humor or there are those embarrassed to have to settle for a non-printed manual. If your a socialist without a printed manual and proud of it, stand up and say so but don't tell me that it is wrong to say I am glad I don't live in europe else I would have gotten the same crappy CMBB file. Lighten up.
:joy:

[KG_Norad]

No worries KG AGCent. Things have been pretty heated around here (at least in the off topic forum) since the damn elections in Nov. We just wanted to nip that post in the bud before it blew up into something that in all likelyhood it was not meant to be.

We did not mean to seem hypersensitive around here, we just wanted to avoid that tension (again off topic forum type tension) in the CM Forum. :D

Also as for RangerBooboo, Battlefront used to sell replacement manuals for CMBB but I am not sure if they still do. Check there.

[Full Monty]

I think part of the problem is the use of the term 'socialist'. Firstly because it gets used as a term of abuse and secondly, as your post illustrates It is no secret that European "democracies" are socialist states., many Americans seem to think that Europeans are 'socialists' which is basically false. Even Margaret Thatcher, for all her friendship with Ronald Reagan, would have far more in common with US Democrats than Republicans. What we see as 'Socialists' are much further to the Left than the likes of Blair and Chirac (for example) and, since the fall of the Soviet Union, their views are largely discredited (not that this was THE cause but the timeline is roughly correct). Hence bandying the term 'socialist' around is liable to cause offence.

Sorry if that rambled a bit :)

[Fionn]

Couple of points in response to KG_AGCent & NORAD:

1. I don't see why it was necessary to post this "defence" of your, initial, irrelevant comments. No, you want to make your insult and then try to paint it as not an insult at all. That is an abuse of forum rules if I ever saw it.

2. The insults you made which you claim not to see are barn-door obvious. I'll go through your post to highlight them


a) "I believe the European version of CMBB shipped with an electronic version of the manual."
No problem here. A factually correct and helpful sentence which substantively addresses the concerns of the initial poster.


b) "Fortunately I am NOT in Europe (France in particular) and I recieved a full printed manual."

Irrelevant. The poster didn't ask where you were or if you had received a manual. This is clearly just you taking the opportunity to get a cheap shot in. That this is so is made absolutely clear by your reference to France. Without the French reference I'm sure people would have let ur comment slide. With the reference to France in, coming from an American, it is absolutely clear to any European subscribing to the forum ( and I hope most Americans) that you are just trying to get a cheap shot in "under the radar" as it were. There is absolutely NOTHING in the initial question or the CDV situation which necessitates you mentioning France. You mention it purely because you want to get a cheap, nasty shot in. If you have a problem with France, fine ( you are, after all, entitled to your opinions AND to express them in appropriate fora) BUT there's no justification for working your issues out on the CM forum. Go to the off topic etc forum and vent all you want but don't polute CM threads with your biases.


3. "Perhaps one of the socialists would be kind enough to pony up a copy for you."

Again, the use of the word socialists is obviously intended to be denigratory. You could have substituted the phrase "other Europeans" and there would have been no problem. Instead you chose to insert a word which, coming from you, is obviously intended to be denigratory.

I doubt you'd enjoy me referring to you and all other Americans on this forum as a " neo-conservative religious fundamentalist" yet such a gross mischaracterisation of Americans is as unwarranted and, CRUCIALLY, as completely irrelevant to CM discussion on the CM forum as your rather pathetic mischaracterisation of Europeans.


Lastly, it is disappointing that rather than just accepting the very mild rebuke from WHQ you chose to post again trying to justify your comments and pretend they aren't intended to be denigratory. At least if you had stood by your comments there would be something to respect but someone who says one thing and then says it again while denying its real meaning isn't even deserving of that modicum of respect.


Even your response and your attempt to re-contextualise your initial post is undermined by the following faux pas, " As to the "French" part... , some things are best left a mystery...am grateful to our european allies who have supported my nation. Enough said." Clearly showing the low opinion in which you hold France and proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the manner in which you intended the French reference to be taken.



So, taken together, no-one cares whether you're happy to live in Europe or America or what your view of European democracy is or what ur view of France is any more than they care about my views on those topics. THAT thread was about securing a manual for someone. Your later comments about France, the state of democracy in Europe, how happy you are to be American etc were not relevant to the discussion and, more to the point, were denigratory and barbed comments. They shouldn't have appeared in answer to a question about securing a printed manual.


I think it is also fair to express that I feel it is unfortunate the moderators of this forum seem willing to swallow, hook line and sinker your egregious rewriting of context. NORAD, this is a long, slippery slope. If you allow him to say that sort of thing and get away with it then either you allow Europeans to say the same sort of insulting and denigratory things about America OR you ban Europeans saying it while Americans get away with it and watch the European users in this forum slip away over time. I've seen it happen in other fora. The only solution which I've seen result in a thriving, healthy forum has occured in fora in which moderators have decided to punish both sides equally for the same level of offence.


With that said, I suppose it is always possible that you are just completely blind to how your comments come across to anyone who doesn't live in America and insomuch were blind to how clearly they appear insulting to Europeans. If that's the case then I'd suggest you think about how your comments come across to others and if you really want to avoid flamewars that you self-censor more effectively. I'm quite sure I could state widely held European views about America, Iraq, Afghanistan etc which would result in huge flamewars her in the CM forum. I don't because it isn't appropriate to this forum and so I self-censor. I'll either say them in the off-topic forum or keep them to myself. Perhaps you should do likewise?


P.s. I don't wish to ignite a flamewar by making these points. I'm just extremely disappointed at the manner of the KGer's response and the fact that he appears to be getting away with this egregious and disingenuous re-interpretation of his initial post. I am writing as I do because I feel it is in the forum's interest for me to speak up ( I, personally, amn't in any way effected by what some American writes on an internet forum and so it impacts me negligibly) as I see this sort of thing as the beginning of a long, slippery flamewar-ridden road which will rob this forum of its value as a place for discussing CM.

As someone who moderated fora in the past I found the only way to stop that slide was to intervene early in the minor stages, clearly show that ANY denigratory remarks on either side were unacceptable. By nipping it in the bud you ensure the forum remains of maximum utility to visitors, save yourself and your forum from the loss/banning of constructive members who get caught up in the flamewars AND more easily identify and eradicate those who come to the forums with an attitude problem/seeking trouble.


I've said my piece and I'll stay silent about this unless requested to reply by the moderators (nothing personal KG. I'm sure you're a reasonable person in reality but my concern isn't about the severity of this incident... it isn't all that severe at all and certainly nothing warranting a ban etc... but of the increasing severity of what will, inevitably, follow if this minor incident is even partially tolerated). If things go downhill and this place becomes yet another place where Americans can be snide about Europe and Europeans then I'm sure I won't be the only European who votes with his feet and let's his silence speak for him.

So far though, and I've checked out a few of the other fora here Warfare HQ is remarkably abuse-free ( with the noted exception of the off-topic area) and it'd be nice if it could be kept that way, IMO. Lastly, FWIW I'd object just as strongly if a European got away with egregiously denigrating America.

[KG_Norad]

So much for trying to play the nice guy...

I really do not want to see anyone alienated around here. I also do not wish to see any flame wars. Fionn, if you have read some of the other forums, then you know that while his initial post was inflamatory it was reletively mild...hence the warning and the closeing of the thread. Also just for the record if a European says something about America that is a broad stereotype I smile and let it go, I do not hang out here to get worked up over these types of things. (I am sure this applies to most of us here!) In the original thread I also make clear how much I value our non American members and how much they contribute to our forum.

I would like to state clearly for Fionn and anyone else who is wondering that No Derogatory Comments About Anyone are Acceptable in the CM Forum!

Granted we really did not need a defence thread (KG) and in retrospect I should have just shut it down then rather then gently trying to move people on past the subject.

I am sure you will also notice that for the most part the CM forum is free of the need to moderate as everyone tends to stay on topic and this is the way we will keep it. Both Palantir and myself see this as a family friendly forum for all age groups and we are commited to keeping it that way for ALL of you who love CM.

If anyone feels I have failed in my moderator duties then I apologize but I hope you will recognize that I always attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt, and to have a fair & respectful hand with all. Finally when it comes down to it I like to hope people will act like adults on their own.

These rebuttals from both the original party and the others are exactly what I was trying to avoid.

I agree Fionn that the France comment was out of line and we will not support any country bashing here.

This particular subject is now closed. There will be no more rebuttals. Any further posts will be deleted.

Again to any members who have been offended I apologize, I have not had a lot of practice with volatile threads so I ask for your patience.

Now let's drop this bad business and get back to CM!

[Palantir]

TO EVERYONE!

As NORAD stated-

Please take all non-CM related comments and posts to any of those "Off Topic" Forums provided at WHQ. They are there for everyones individual opinions to be expressed. :D

No one gets to "slide" in the CM-Forum, I'm one of the few moderators that deletes posts & entire threads quickly for ANY reason not directly related to (CM) gaming. :surprise:

In this case I did make a quick call in the "other" thread to end the "off" comments with the least disturbance. Maybe not forcefully enough for some but I would do that for anyone. :halo:

The CM Forum is for CM gaming and nothing else, take everything else to the appropriate forum. :thumup:

This thread is over. :TRUCE:

Ahhh, peace in our time... :salute: