How many people here play Civil War wargames?

[Don Maddox]

I'm insterested to know how many wargamers of this type we have around here. Is there any interest in the Civil War Battles series from HPS?

[chrisvalla]

Generally speaking... I don't play much ACW, but every now and then I get a 'musket volley' itch that needs scratched.

[KG_RangerBooBoo]

I do play them quite a bit and I love the new Gettysburg campaign as it gives you wide open maps with lots of room for maneuver and there is something like 1300 possible scenarios with the campaign and even more that can be downloaded. I selected the first option but I'm not so concerned with them being supported here. I'm the CiC of the Union Armies in the ACWGC (http://www.wargame.ch/wc/acw/ACWmainpage.htm) and do my CW gaming there. However if a ladder was to start here I would probably try to keep an active game here also. Of course I would like to do my Panzer Campaign games here also.

[GeorgiaDixie]

Never played any Civil War games, outside of Sid Meier's 2 games and also Civil War Generals II. But I'd be kinda of interested if I could learn more about it. I just don't know if I'd have the time.

[Peachy Carnehan]

I love CWG2, and am always up for a new one, but there hasn't really been one that I've liked. I enjoy CW wargames, but I don't play them all that often, at least not anymore. I used to play CWG2 all the time, but it doesn't run so well on XP, and Rome does, so I play that.

[CyberRanger]

I've played most of the TalonSoft series. May need to check out that Gettysburg game that RangerBooBoo is talking about. Can you throw us a link?

[Tom DeFranco]

Yes I play Civil War wargames. I concentrate on the board wargames venue, though. Check out my article back in 6/7/04, Anatomy of a Game System, about the Gamers' CWB and RSS systems. I think these are the best ACW wargames out there. Some of the titles still available are No Better Place To Die (Stones River), The Seven Days Trilogy (Gaines Mill, Seven Pines (along with the middle portion of the Seven Days battles) and Malvern Hill), This Terrible Sound (Regimental level Chickamauga), A Fearful Slaughter (Regimental level Shiloh)

[Peachy Carnehan]

I've wanted to get into the board games, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

[last_cav1971]

I love the cpu games. Looking forward for something for playstation. (high hopes).
I live for the Civil War..........but would have no one to play board games with.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[Juno]

I used to play Terrible Swift Sword. Then I bought a condo.

[Janos]

I have some WBTS miniatures and rules, but haven't played with them in a long time (since I switched over to medievals).

[Blackcloud6]

I like the US Cival War as a great period of history to study but it is second to WWII. Most of my gaming is on WWII subjects but there are times when I step back to the Blue & Grey. So bring 'em on...

[Don Maddox]

Assorted links:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/RifMusk/Gettysburg/gettysburg.html

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/RifMusk/Corinth/Corinth.html

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/RifMusk/Franklin/franklin.html

[Peachy Carnehan]

This one looks pretty cool too. Comes out in January.

www.madminutegames.com

[Tom DeFranco]

I've wanted to get into the board games, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Why, lack of opponents, like Mark said about his situation?

[Tom DeFranco]

I love the cpu games. Looking forward for something for playstation. (high hopes).
I live for the Civil War..........but would have no one to play board games with.

Mark
Deo Vindice

Mark, have you considered ADC2 by HPS, the same people who publish the games that Don mentioned above? ADC2 facilitates the use of boardgames on a PC. You don't need to set the board up, the program does it for you. The only thing you need to do is know the rules of the game you're playing.

The only real downside is that the program does nothing to enforce LOS, movement, combat or supply rules. There is, therefore, an element of trust involved. IOW - know your opponent.

[last_cav1971]

I'll check into it, Tom.......thanks.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[Peachy Carnehan]

Why, lack of opponents, like Mark said about his situation?

For the most part, yes, and it takes time to get into it anyway.

[sgtono]

Play CW boardgames, CWB, RSS, GCACW and GBACW.


Keith

[Tom DeFranco]

For the most part, yes, and it takes time to get into it anyway.

It takes less time than miniatures but more than PC games. But, really, what is there to pulling counters out from the tree and reading a set of rules? :)

[Tom DeFranco]

Play CW boardgames, CWB, RSS, GCACW and GBACW.


Keith

Keith, I recognize you from Consimworld. How are you?

[sgtono]

Keith, I recognize you from Consimworld. How are you?


Hello Tom,

I am just fine, nice to "meet" you again. Sure would be nice to have a discussion forum with topics on ACW boardgames. Consim is great but the topic and sub topic format on this forum would add a great value.

Happy Holidays,

Keith

[dannybou]

I've got one, I think it's Campaign Franklin if my memory doesn't fail me. I also have Gettysburg from Talonsoft.

[Keith Todd]

Keith, I recognize you from Consimworld. How are you?


Hello Tom again and everyone else,

I have registered under my real name to get rid of the sgtono login.

Been reading the topics here and already took one suggestion and ordered some Civil War Osprey books.

Was wondering, besides Consim, is there any ACW boardgaming forums?

Thanks,

Keith

[17poundr]

To my shame I have to admit that although I have played Avalon Hill style games since 1979 (I was introduced to our world in 1970, and my dad and I played alot), to my shame the only game about the civil war was the Bull Run gamette in the ACG mag!

As I see it, the American civil war gives the best of two wars> on one hand you get the traditional Napoleonic generals hill style battle, and on the other, you get long ranging firepower and ww1 style fortifications!

Could anybody recommend a pc based game for a 'Wet behind the ears player)?


Secondly, although this might be the wrong forum to ask, who exactly was general Dodge of railway fame???

I saw a documentary about the seven wonders of the industrial world, and he was instumental in getting the east coast to the west coast railway that made America as we know it and caused the wild west and the indian wars as a side effect.

This man was quoted as being a civil war time officer, so...

Was he a good and/or important officer in the civil war?

Did he continue fighting in the indian wars after the railway was ready?

And does the current Dodge car factory have anything to do with him?

Sorry if I sound so ignorant, but the civil war is something totally ignored in Finland.

Any answers (or separate thread on this remarkable man) would be mightily appreciated!

Also, a good pc game Is shurely to be purchased!

I heard that gen Grant was a great strategist, so maybe a game that has not only one battle but campaigns is what I'm looking for, then again, If the best game is about one battle, I would like to have the furthest with the mostest in my game, so...

Thankyou sirs, mr Poundr.

[Tom DeFranco]

To my shame I have to admit that although I have played Avalon Hill style games since 1979 (I was introduced to our world in 1970, and my dad and I played alot), to my shame the only game about the civil war was the Bull Run gamette in the ACG mag!

As I see it, the American civil war gives the best of two wars> on one hand you get the traditional Napoleonic generals hill style battle, and on the other, you get long ranging firepower and ww1 style fortifications!

Could anybody recommend a pc based game for a 'Wet behind the ears player)?


Secondly, although this might be the wrong forum to ask, who exactly was general Dodge of railway fame???

I saw a documentary about the seven wonders of the industrial world, and he was instumental in getting the east coast to the west coast railway that made America as we know it and caused the wild west and the indian wars as a side effect.

This man was quoted as being a civil war time officer, so...

Was he a good and/or important officer in the civil war?

Did he continue fighting in the indian wars after the railway was ready?

And does the current Dodge car factory have anything to do with him?

Sorry if I sound so ignorant, but the civil war is something totally ignored in Finland.

Any answers (or separate thread on this remarkable man) would be mightily appreciated!

Also, a good pc game Is shurely to be purchased!

I heard that gen Grant was a great strategist, so maybe a game that has not only one battle but campaigns is what I'm looking for, then again, If the best game is about one battle, I would like to have the furthest with the mostest in my game, so...

Thankyou sirs, mr Poundr.

Regarding a PC based game - I do prefer board games, but try to get your hands on the old Talonsoft Battleground games. They are user friendly.

Regarding General Dodge, I'm guessing you mean Grenville Dodge. I know he fought at Pea Ridge and some of the other Trans-Missisippi battles.

Games about Grant's Campaigns would be nice. There are boardgames about the Vicksburg Campaign, Chattanooga Campaign and the Overland Campaign, nothing in PCs though, that I'm aware of.

[Fionn]

I play ACW. Many of the battles and campaigns of the time are quite interesting operationally and tactically speaking.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing more coverage of the period by media and the industry.

[Aragos]

I've played (but not in a while) CW games. I prefer the strategic level games; VG Civil War was a lot of fun. The best was SPI's War Between the States, published around 1972 or so. Some of the strategic games published in the 1990's were fairly atrocious, with the exception of Clash of Arms' War for the Union.

[Pirate-Drakk]

I've played a few Civil War games (board and PC) over the years but the only one that stands out as exceptional is Sid Meier's Civil War Series for PC.

Civil War games are somewhat limited, strategically the North always has a big advantage with industry, navy, etc. Tactically, the two sides were fairly even, using essentially the same weapons, troops, tactics etc. The lack of machine guns and air power leave the Civil War games somewhat lacking in diversity although it's no fault of the war...

:skull: :skull:

[17poundr]

Hmm, I know Sid Meyer's name and thus am immediately drawn to him, but many of the games you mentioned sounded interesting...

What I'm looking for is ofcourse something that does not exist, a game with a strategic overtone, but the greater emphasis on the well done battles, and as to playing the south against the mounting industry of the Union, is a bit like playing the axis, if Lee had won a battle or two more at crucial points, who knows what would have happened???

Thanks for the info guys!

Poundr.

p.s. what is ACW?

[GeorgiaDixie]

I agree 17poundr. I'd like a strategic game with good tactical battle simulations in it. And ACW stands for American Civil War. And if you see WBTS that stands for War Between the States.

[hogdriver]

I have played Civil War games, but my favorite is not supported under XP, so I am not presently involved with any. If I see one that catches my interest - I will consider buying it.

[17poundr]

So, ACW, is a series of games designed by Sid Meyer?

Are these separate battles?

Or is there a 'campaign' option in them?

War Between the States, sounds like a more 'long haul' game...

Is it purely of the battles?
Same question for ACW?

(It seems that my coise is leaning toward these two, I am a dedicated TOAW, and apprentice Combat Mission player on my xp, before that I played Panzer general and all the pacific add on's but didnt like when they changed the beautiful 2d maps to that mass of porridge that was supposed to be a 3d map)!

Before the pc, I loved an old AH game about Barbarossa, A Game called 'Armour at Prokhorovka', Panzerkrieg: (Von Manstein at the southern steppes of Russia 'or something to that effect'...) And Squad Leader.

Perhaps somebody could give me an educated quess on what game to buy???

(He, hee, I see a heated battle between the various game's fans coming... :devious: ).

Mr Poundr.

[GeorgiaDixie]

Actually 17poundr those are just abbreviations for the actual war. They're not games (though I think there is one called American Civil War). Sorry for the confusion.

[last_cav1971]

There are a couple of older games out from 'Sierra'.
The first one is called "Civil War Generals" and is a play at your own pace game. You have certain hexes and in each hex that you have men, you are told how many, their health, their morale, what weapons they are using. At then end of each battle, if you win, you get to purchase upgrades for your weapons. (such as trading a rebored musket for a Harpers Ferry Rifle, etc.) Every man in the unit gets the same rifle.
The second one I still play every now and then. "Civil War Generals II".........also the same way to play.
Old......but worth the time to sit and play. You can choose to play either one battle, a campaign, the entire war; you can choose to be Union or Confederate.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[GeorgiaDixie]

There are a couple of older games out from 'Sierra'.
The first one is called "Civil War Generals" and is a play at your own pace game. You have certain hexes and in each hex that you have men, you are told how many, their health, their morale, what weapons they are using. At then end of each battle, if you win, you get to purchase upgrades for your weapons. (such as trading a rebored musket for a Harpers Ferry Rifle, etc.) Every man in the unit gets the same rifle.
The second one I still play every now and then. "Civil War Generals II".........also the same way to play.
Old......but worth the time to sit and play. You can choose to play either one battle, a campaign, the entire war; you can choose to be Union or Confederate.

Mark
Deo Vindice

I love Civil War Generals II, but there are quite a few bugs, especially in campaign mode. Do you know if they ever made a patch? I hate winning the Battle of the Wilderness and then having the game freeze on the first turn of the Battle of Washington! :mad:

[last_cav1971]

I love Civil War Generals II, but there are quite a few bugs, especially in campaign mode. Do you know if they ever made a patch? I hate winning the Battle of the Wilderness and then having the game freeze on the first turn of the Battle of Washington! :mad:

Im not sure if they made a patch or not. I may have to look on their site and see. I havent played the game for a long time.......just for that reason......freezing.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[last_cav1971]

Georgia,
I found this. It may help, not sure.

Go to www.gamespot.com
there is a 1.0.1 patch that will stop the bugs and freezing for 3.1 and Win95. Not sure if it will work for xp.

You can also play free online against other players with Sierra's FREE gaming server.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[last_cav1971]

Actually, there are a number of patches and downloads for the game. Check it out.

Mark
Deo Vindice

[GeorgiaDixie]

Thanks Mark. I'll check it out and maybe reinstall it. It is definitely an excellent game.

[Pirate-Drakk]

So, ACW, is a series of games designed by Sid Meyer?

Are these separate battles?

Or is there a 'campaign' option in them?


Perhaps somebody could give me an educated quess on what game to buy???

(He, hee, I see a heated battle between the various game's fans coming... :devious: ).

Mr Poundr.

Sid Meier's Civil War games are three different games. Gettysburg, which doesn't run correctly on my WinXP machine. This one has a campaign which is a series of tactical battles. There is no strategic element to the game. The battles can be fought in both a historical mode or random. There are a variety of formations available and commanders play a key role for moral and larger formation control. It's a really good game although the graphics are a bit dated. It won game of the year sometime in the '90s. There is also Antietem and South Mountain in this series. They use the same game engine but I haven't played them much. I got all three games on a disk called "Sid Meier's Civil War Series". Since it's old, it only cost like $10. I saw a copy the other day at a computer store in a bundle of old war games so it is still available on the shelf. It is well worth the time and the Antietem runs fine in XP.

See: http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=8
:thumup:


I have another Civil War computer game. I forget the exact name, but it was endorsed by the "History Channel". It has both strategic and tactical battle moves. But in SUCKS! :p Don't waste the money on that one.

[GeorgiaDixie]

Actually there's a good patch for Gettysburg that allows it to run on XP. I'll attempt to find it.

[17poundr]

Funny, you would think that with all these enless first person shooters they are now calling tactical war simulations (is that our destiny? Nooooooohh!)...

There would be at least a couple of guys/firms giving it a try, why dont they stop messing around with interfaces, and stick to the good old grid format with 2d map, that had became the norm in the boardgames???

Sigh, I have tried these 'shooters' and welll after you go tatatatatatatatata boom! for fifteen minutes it gets a bit tiring, so Gettysburg is a hex based game, or more like moving squares of men like in Total War Shogun, Mongol invasion, and Middleages (Wich was already boring)???

[Pirate-Drakk]

Actually there's a good patch for Gettysburg that allows it to run on XP. I'll attempt to find it.

I've got the patch, still doesn't work right for me but due to my "circumstances" :whist: it may work just fine for others with the patch. Fortunately I have 5 computers running various O/Ss so I can play Gettysburg just fine. :D

[Nico]

As for me the best are Sid Meiers Gettysburg, American Civil War and No Greater Glory (last two can be downloaded for free). As for CWG2 it was to 'static' and computer was too stupid :/, there is also Age of Rifles with ACW Campaigns, but AI is very low.

Going back to Gettysburg, I think it is the best RTS game ever made. AI is on very high level (I am talking about 3rd difficulty level) and it is almost impossible..it is impossible to take Little Round Top :/.

As for old TalonSoft games and HPS, now they are too poor for 2005. Old system "I go, You go" is the worst what game can offer, completly unrealistic.

But now I am mostly playing board games, live opponents are much harder ;). The VERY best ACW games are 'Great Campaigns of American Civil War' - www.gcacw.com - check it out :).

[Keith Todd]

I agree with Nico that GCACW is one of the best ACW boardgames. The init system always keeps the game interesting, and the variety of scenarios and campaign games is most appealing.

No western modules yet, but the Shenandoah to the Peninsular is well covered for most of the ACW years.

Keith

[17poundr]

I too dont mind playing a good boargame, but unfortunately I have lost contact with some of my old gaming buddies, and those who I still have contact with are so busy with babies and work that they do the 'Finnish weekend', ie, drinking from friday evening to the early hours of sunday!

Try to fit a good boardgame with them! :)

I DID find a gettysburg scenario for TOAW though, and the pbm has been a godsend, ritght now I'm having a tricky game of the ww2 desert Crusader scenario with Dannybou, and should try to get on with mastering the nebulous Combat Mission pbm system so I can get a thorough whupping from full monty!

p.s. If Gettysburg TOAW is a good scenario, I invite someone to have a relaxed timetable pbm game... ? :D

[dgfred]

I've got the patch, still doesn't work right for me but due to my "circumstances" :whist: it may work just fine for others with the patch. Fortunately I have 5 computers running various O/Ss so I can play Gettysburg just fine. :D

Where can you get the patch? I like the game, but have not been
able to play since getting XP :mad: . Why will it not work for
you, just curious?

[Mike Duffy]

I'm insterested to know how many wargamers of this type we have around here. Is there any interest in the Civil War Battles series from HPS?

I have played just about every paper wargame out there, including GBACW, GCACW, Victory's old Civil War & CWB (especially), and I have played the Talonsoft series quite a bit, as well as Sid Meier's games.
:blab:
Mike

[Tom DeFranco]

Not to be too argumentative, but I prefer the CWB and RSS to the GCACW. The CWB and RSS cover specific battles (which I like) but they have many options available to the players for "what if" situations. I only played the GCACW once but found them to be a tad overly pro-Confederate (that is possibly because they choose to portray only the Eastern battles so far). Also, for a campaign series, it seems that supply isn't as big a concern as it should be for the players, which should be especially pronounced as a Confederate disadvantage.

[Keith Todd]

I agree Tom, that is why I said "one of the best", IMHO, just finished the Murfreesboro CWB game, No Better Place to Die, was a very fun, interesting game. The command aspect of CWB and RSS appeals to me the most. It keeps all the games varied and unique. Writing and givng the orders to your brigades or regiments then seeing if they get accepted adds suspense as well as careful thinking.

I do not know if GCACW is still that much pro-rebel since the Standard series rules came out and with it also new leader units. There is emphasis on supply depending which module and scenario you play.

I am just starting to get into GBACW and the Glory series with Rappahannock and Three Days of Gettysburg.

They are all different than Gettysburg '64 and '77 by AH :)

Keith

[Nico]

I prefer operational scale GCACW instead of tactical cause in my opinion bigger scale is more interesting. I dont see fun playing again and again same battle of Gettysburg, but playing whole campaign and trying other options, this is very interesting.
Other thing. The operational level was critical in Civil War battles. The player of the tactical games is benefiting from the advantages inherent in the situation set up during the advance to the battlefield. So there is no fun playing Gettysburg when You know that Pickett will come at that time.

[Keith Todd]

I prefer operational scale GCACW instead of tactical cause in my opinion bigger scale is more interesting. I dont see fun playing again and again same battle of Gettysburg, but playing whole campaign and trying other options, this is very interesting.
Other thing. The operational level was critical in Civil War battles. The player of the tactical games is benefiting from the advantages inherent in the situation set up during the advance to the battlefield. So there is no fun playing Gettysburg when You know that Pickett will come at that time.

The beauty of CWBS is that the historicity is captured but you do not know when or if Pickett will come.


Keith

[17poundr]

Listening to all this is making me convinced I'm missing out on a good gaming experience, please gentlemen for a person with little knowledge of the Civil war, (Only a superficial school history, and the very good film god's and generals with Robert Duvall, as general Lee), which pc based game for win xp, would you recommend?

[Nico]

Sid Meiers Gettysburg :-) and American Civil War. The last can be downloaded version for XP for free.

[Tom DeFranco]

I prefer operational scale GCACW instead of tactical cause in my opinion bigger scale is more interesting. I dont see fun playing again and again same battle of Gettysburg, but playing whole campaign and trying other options, this is very interesting.
Other thing. The operational level was critical in Civil War battles. The player of the tactical games is benefiting from the advantages inherent in the situation set up during the advance to the battlefield. So there is no fun playing Gettysburg when You know that Pickett will come at that time.

You've obviously never played the CWB or RSS by the Gamers/MMP. With the CWB and RSS you do not know when, whether or where Pickett or anyone else will get to the battlefield. In the CWB Gettysburg game, Thunder at the Crossroads there are optional rules for when and where units enter the map. Orders are not written in stone in these systems in terms of them getting through to the subordinate commander. They could be accepted and implemented immediately (highly unlikely), delayed for a few hours while the ordered unit (usually a corps) gets ready to conduct their orders or completly garbled in transmission in which you'll need to come up with initiative or a new set of orders. This makes for a different game in most playings.

The other thing that I am not crazy about in most operational level games are their combat systems, they are not really that evolved and do not display the vicious nature of the combat like the CWB and RSS. I understand the need for operational level games on the ACW, I just haven't found one that covers combat, morale and orders problems like those two systems.

[Nico]

There is also other thing. When I play battle who am I? I always think general Lee ;) so does general Lee have ever been commanding brigade? Never. He ordered corps cmdr or division. Brigade? No. This is a problem with tactical games You are Army cmdr, Corps cmdr, Division cmdr and Brigade cmdr. You are everyone in everywhere. That is not realistic for me.

In GCACW You are giving orders to corps cmdr and division, like Lee had. Still You dont know how good they will execute orders. Battles? Army cmdr was doing everything he could to get as many as possible advantages before battle. Battle was at God and soldiers hand. That is why I think playing battles is not THAT level the player should be given. And when I see game with regimental level....well this is joke ;) for me.

As I read the CWB 'has order system'. Ok, but when the order is accepted by division cmdr You immediatly jump from army cmdr to division cmdr or even brigade. And that is what I dislike.

[17poundr]

Sid Meiers Gettysburg :-) and American Civil War. The last can be downloaded version for XP for free.
I'll take your word on that sir! :)

By the way, have you seen the film 'God's and Generals'? It centers on the General 'Stonewall' Jackson, but mr Duvall gives an exellent portrayal of mr Lee.

The deep religiousness of the times, and people is well documented in this very good film about the early days of some of the Civil war fighing, centering on the souths successess.

It is a first of a three part film, and I suspect that the emphasis will shift to the Union's commanders as the war goes on...

[GeorgiaDixie]

I'll take your word on that sir! :)

By the way, have you seen the film 'God's and Generals'? It centers on the General 'Stonewall' Jackson, but mr Duvall gives an exellent portrayal of mr Lee.

The deep religiousness of the times, and people is well documented in this very good film about the early days of some of the Civil war fighing, centering on the souths successess.

It is a first of a three part film, and I suspect that the emphasis will shift to the Union's commanders as the war goes on...

I believe Mr. Nico has certainly seen it! ;) We've restarted up the debate on Sheen-Duvall as Lee, thanks to Nico. I love when an old thread comes back to life! :thumup:

[Tom DeFranco]

There is also other thing. When I play battle who am I? I always think general Lee ;) so does general Lee have ever been commanding brigade? Never. He ordered corps cmdr or division. Brigade? No. This is a problem with tactical games You are Army cmdr, Corps cmdr, Division cmdr and Brigade cmdr. You are everyone in everywhere. That is not realistic for me.

In GCACW You are giving orders to corps cmdr and division, like Lee had. Still You dont know how good they will execute orders. Battles? Army cmdr was doing everything he could to get as many as possible advantages before battle. Battle was at God and soldiers hand. That is why I think playing battles is not THAT level the player should be given. And when I see game with regimental level....well this is joke ;) for me.

As I read the CWB 'has order system'. Ok, but when the order is accepted by division cmdr You immediatly jump from army cmdr to division cmdr or even brigade. And that is what I dislike.

As for me the combat is too vague in the operational stuff. No matter how you look at it, whatever level you play, you still wear the hats of different level commanders as you move them across the map - so how much less realistic is it to manipulate your forces during combat? You still must follow your own orders to the T and if those orders prove to be obsolete you are still stuck with them until you can get them changed - not an easy thing to do. If your II Corps has orders to defend Cemetery Hill, they must do so. That cannot act immediately on the situation, just an in the real life situations being portrayed.

Also, as I stated earlier, in the CWB and RSS you never know whether the subordinate (usually a corps commander, just as Grant or Lee did) will accept the order or not - so nothing is cut and dry in the system. Very seldom does one give a brigade CO an order. There are too many variables for things to be perfect, just as in the real thing. Usually the player who plans most completely wins, but that isn't even a given.

Regarding wearing more than one hat again, these games facilitate themselves to team play for that reason. There could be army commanders and corps commanders in each game.

Another thing, the games in that system tend to penalize the use of poor era tactics and reward the player who uses era tactics properly.

Don't knock the tactical stuff until you've tried it!

[Nico]

17 pounder: Oh there is one thing, it is better to play American Civil War with friend, computer AI is not so bad, but still it is not hard to win starting in 1861. 1863 for CSA is much harder :).

From all games on world I have only found that AI is challanging in Sid Meiers Gettysburg, Alpha Centauri and Civilization....

Yes, Mr. ;) Nico has watched Gods and Generals. Jackson attack at Chancellorsville is wonderful, however whole film is to Gettysburg like old Star Wars movies to new ones :( .

Tom De Franco: I dont knock tactical games, but I am Kevin Zucker 'beliver' :laugh: and his games convinced me that operational level is the best - www.napoleongames.com . Still each of us enjoy diffrent things. But we have same aim - to defeat enemy in detail :D .

[dgfred]

I play Sid's Gettysburg and American Civil War :laugh: . I like
Gettysburg better :cool: .

[Tom DeFranco]

17 pounder: Oh there is one thing, it is better to play American Civil War with friend, computer AI is not so bad, but still it is not hard to win starting in 1861. 1863 for CSA is much harder :).

From all games on world I have only found that AI is challanging in Sid Meiers Gettysburg, Alpha Centauri and Civilization....

Yes, Mr. ;) Nico has watched Gods and Generals. Jackson attack at Chancellorsville is wonderful, however whole film is to Gettysburg like old Star Wars movies to new ones :( .

Tom De Franco: I dont knock tactical games, but I am Kevin Zucker 'beliver' :laugh: and his games convinced me that operational level is the best - www.napoleongames.com . Still each of us enjoy diffrent things. But we have same aim - to defeat enemy in detail :D .

Nico, If Operational games are your forte, fine. I happen to think that the Napoleonic Operational games are better than those for the ACW. I especially like Zucker's old "The Emperor Returns". It seems to me though that you labor under a misconception regarding tactical battle games, and I thought I should enlighten you as to the realities of the CWB and RSS systems versus what you thought.

[Nico]

The CWB system was used in old K.Zucker game - Napoleon at Leipzig. However instead writing orders I think better system for tactical games, maybe faster and same chaotical, is in Battles of Waterloo. Where each command has its chit. And all players put all chits into cup and draw. So You dont know which unit when will be activated and how many times in row You will move.

You have 'The Emperor Returns'? Lucky :( I have 'The Eagles Turn East 1807' - 3 big boards and half year campaign :).

[17poundr]

I believe Mr. Nico has certainly seen it! ;) We've restarted up the debate on Sheen-Duvall as Lee, thanks to Nico. I love when an old thread comes back to life! :thumup:
Oh, you need to doubt?
Duvall beats Sheen fully with his great conduct, and just having that presence that makes you believe this is a great commander of armies!

One vote for Duvall!

[17poundr]

I know this is a bit 'off subject' But as someone who enjoyed Total War-Shogun very much, and was dissapointed with Total War-Medieval.

Do you have any experience on their third main game: Total War-Roman Empire (or something like that, the game about ancient Roman Empire building).

I enjoyed the very esthetically correct visuals on Shogun, and the extra disc with much info of the Sengoku Jidai, (The period of the warlords fighting for the top spot of Shogun, that lasted from the 1200 century to the battle of Segikahara in the latter part of 1600, when Ieasu Togugawa became Shogun finally and Japan, froze until Perry arrives some two centuries later)...

Medievals graphics, and attention to the historical aspects, were inferior, and made it just another of the blooming game strain like cossacks ect...

Maybe it was because Total War shogun was one of the first to reallly combine the fights and the building of city's in a way, that was balanced so well.
Perhaps after playing Shogun, the later game's seemed just a repetition in discuise?

Any oppinions???

Are some of the before mentioned Civil War games similar, and if so, how??

I certainly loved the combination of medieval cavalry and early muskets in Shogun, if a well done version mirrourin properly the conditions of 1860's America, with deadly new Bullets, mixed with older musket balls, the almost starting revolution in artillery, and trench warfare, mixed with old style cavalry charges, and the eternal bayonet!

All of this modelled, with the race of the south against time that shurely must be on the north's side...

All of this in one game, would be exellent.

As an european maybe I should by a book about the US civil war, because many of my wishes from the game are more easily found between a good book than a game!

I must say, that I thought the Film God's and Generals in my eyes, gave a realistic sence of what the men of the Civil war were like.

And let us not forget the men in command, and in the ranks of the civil war, were much like victorian gentlemen and poorer men of the British Nation.

The accepted social behaviour: Religious, corteous, and embedded with a sence of honour.

And I do know about the Victorian era in Europe, especially Britain.

[Nico]

that presence that makes you believe this is a great commander of armies! One vote for Duvall!

O_o When You see Duvall You see some old grandpa that needs chair, when You see Sheen that is the commander I`d follow to Cemetary Hill and back ;)

[GeorgiaDixie]

O_o When You see Duvall You see some old grandpa that needs chair, when You see Sheen that is the commander I`d follow to Cemetary Hill and back ;)

I don't think we'll ever really agree on this since how good an actor does is merely an opinion. Unlike history, which at least some concrete facts on which to base opinions, acting seems more of an opinion. But when you argue forcefully, like you did, I can certainly see the other side of the issue! :thumup:

[Tom DeFranco]

The CWB system was used in old K.Zucker game - Napoleon at Leipzig. However instead writing orders I think better system for tactical games, maybe faster and same chaotical, is in Battles of Waterloo. Where each command has its chit. And all players put all chits into cup and draw. So You dont know which unit when will be activated and how many times in row You will move.

You have 'The Emperor Returns'? Lucky :( I have 'The Eagles Turn East 1807' - 3 big boards and half year campaign :).

I have (and have played) the 1989 edition of Napoleon at Leipzig. It doesn't resemble the CWB at all (except for strict command radius rules), not in morale, not in orders or in combat results (which, in the CWB includes stragglers). Did the NaL rules change in the later edition? As a matter of fact, I remember picking chits to move commands while playing. Nothing against picking chits - I've played GMT's Glory series (and Borodino from the Triumph and Glory series) and found them okay when I wanted to relax from writing orders. To me, still, I like the idea of writing orders (with the risk that they don't go through in a timely basis, or at all) to my corps and divisions as it makes me feel like I'm planning the battle, which, after a fashion, I am.

[17poundr]

O_o When You see Duvall You see some old grandpa that needs chair, when You see Sheen that is the commander I`d follow to Cemetary Hill and back ;)
But the way Duvall responds to the news that 'stonewall' has been hit by friendly fire and lost his left arm... He says majestically: "Jackson has lost his left arm, and I have lost my Right one"...

Pricelless, absolutely priceless!!!

[Nico]

Tom: It seems that 3rd and 4th editions must have been changed...I mean about giving orders.

17 Pounder: Sheen is mystical (completly sure of victory) when he talks about attacking Cementary Hill.

[6th Vermont]

You may want to try the brand new Civil War: Bull Run game just released. This is getting very good reviews from players and there is a good AAR on Wargamer.com General Computer Game forum. Do not be fooled by the History Channel logo, this has nothing to do with any previous HC games. This is the next generation above Gettysburg/Antietam. The developers website is at www.madminutegames.com and has a link to their forum. Best part is that it is selling for under $20.

[17poundr]

Tom: It seems that 3rd and 4th editions must have been changed...I mean about giving orders.

17 Pounder: Sheen is mystical (completly sure of victory) when he talks about attacking Cementary Hill.
that was just him having a lsd flashback from the days when he was filming apocalypse now!!! :nuts:

[Nico]

Maybe it was lsd that Duvall was missing in GaG :whist:

[Don Maddox]

In the interest of giving me more information before I make any decisions for Warfare HQ, I'm asking all of you to vote in the new poll I just started.

[17poundr]

Maybe it was lsd that Duvall was missing in GaG :whist:
Ok, good point!! :cheeky:

[17poundr]

In the interest of giving me more information before I make any decisions for Warfare HQ, I'm asking all of you to vote in the new poll I just started.
Pray, what poll on which forum???

I will vote asap, given the co-ordinates!

[The Purist]

Good morning,

Is there, or is there under development, a ACW computer game that covers the entire war from the strategic level (incluing the economic/manpower/industry side) with an operational or tactical battlefield system? In otherwords, a game with strategic level moves on the 'high' map and battles resolved at the tactical (battalion?) or operational (brigade?) level on a 'lower' map.

I would buy such a game instantly.

[Don Maddox]

Pray, what poll on which forum???

I will vote asap, given the co-ordinates!
I think the issues is largely decided now, but the poll was in the Civil War wargame section: http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21413

Is there, or is there under development, a ACW computer game that covers the entire war from the strategic level (incluing the economic/manpower/industry side) with an operational or tactical battlefield system? In otherwords, a game with strategic level moves on the 'high' map and battles resolved at the tactical (battalion?) or operational (brigade?) level on a 'lower' map.

Not that I am aware of. The Gettsburg Campaign from HPS actually covers a significant portion of the fighting in that generall area, but it is still operational in scale and not strategic.