M3 GRANTs invincible?

[Artur]

Gentlemen,

I had run a few test games, and I play two PBEM games nowdays. It looks to me that M3 Grants (not Lees) are almost invincible. Unless you have an 88 with you all the shells just bounce off. Historically a long barelled PZ IV was by far better than them,yet in the game M3 Grants defeat the Pz IVs with ease.
I have several Pz IV fireing at them simultaneusly and the best I can achieve is to force the crew out of the tank - which happens rarely.

It looks to me that if the Allied player chooses a mix of M3Grants and Churchills with 57mm gun they are virtually invincible. :confused: :shock: :eek: :OHNO: :mad:

Your thoughts?

Artur.

[Doctor Sinister]

Erm - panic?

Dr. S.

[Artur]

I would first discuss before I order my brown trousers :p :D :rolleyes:

Artur

[The Purist]

The Grant tank has better turret armour than the Lee (well, it was designed by the British) and this could be problematic. However, there is no need to to panic,...yet.

If you use the later model of the Pz IVG its hull armour can defeat the 75 and 37 of the Lee Grant at range. Our only problem is that if we are hull down and the Grant is hull down, then the Grant's 37 can penetrate out armour while we may have difficulty getting through theirs. Considering the terrain, not the best choice.

To defeat a Grant or Churchill I still think that the Marder/Pz IVG (early) is the way to go. We Germans will have to be devilishly sneaky or strictly disciplined once the range drops below 1000 yards. At long range (1200 yds +) I suggest popping up at the end of a turn, blasting away (setting the targets yourself) during the next turn and then reversing down again on the turn after that. Grants die this way far more easily than do Churchills.

In the joust, whatever force you dash forward into the control area with, make sure it stays 'turret down' and that you cover the approaches that the Brits will come from with as many gun tubes as possible. Sniping from long range and then forcing the British to "charge the guns" in the VP area is probably our best chance at success.

When this is all over I will post my arguement against ever using "none" for rarity. For know, suck it up, mount up and prepare for battle.

[Artur]

Did you experience the killing of the M3 Grants (NOT Lees) in your battles?
Were your crews regular/crack/elite?

My problem is that I am not able to kill them at any range with the available armor unless you get behind them, but with players of similar skill that is not very likely to happen.

Artur.

[The Purist]

Most kills were against the hull. However, a British player with 5000 points can buy:

12 M3 Grant (Veteran)
29 M3 Grant (Regular)[2 independant]

a total of 41 tanks

If they buy M3 Lee tanks:

12 M3 Lee (veteran)
36 M3 Lee (Regular)

a total of 48 tanks.

They may suffer more casualties but they will be able to kill you all the quicker because of 7 extra tanks (14 extra guns). I think a British player would probably go for the Lee tanks considering the type of engagement we are in (short, sharp and deadly).

Overall, I am much more concerned about the Churchill IVs than the M3 Grants.

[Artur]

There is a HUGE difference between Grants and Lees. See armor values.

Churchills are a therat as well.

Artur.

[The Purist]

Well, the only difference is the turret front armour value:

Lee: 51mm turret, 38mm upper hull, 51mm lower hull
Grant: 76mm turret, 38mm upper hull, 51mm lower hul

At the same time the

Churchill: 88mm turret, 101mm upper hull, 88mm lower hull

So, there you have it. The Grant can be killed. I am currently killing Churchills and Lees die just as easily. The 75mm gun on the Pz IVG will penetrate all of this armour at one range or another.

Don't worry Artur, you are a member of 'The Light Brigade',...your opponent is terrified.