"Trac-tics"

[The Purist]

Any insights on successful tactics can be posted here. Dont't be afraid to ask questions either.

I'll start.

Shoot and Scoot vs Hull Down

Which is the preferred tactic of the two. "Shoot and Scoot" only gives the gunner a few seconds to aquire and hit the target before the vehicle begins to reverse back down out of sight. It can result in many missed shots and little reward

'Hull Down' allows for more time to aquire and kill targets but the time your vehicle is exposed is most likeley a full minute or more. The potential for casualties goes way up.

Crew quality - Regular vs. Veteran vs. Crack

How much of a difference is there in the spotting, gunnery and response to orders between the different quality levels of crews? Is it better to have 20 Mk IVs with Vetran crews or 28 Mk IVs with Regular crews?

[yohajin]

Fionn makes a good point in the German OOB forum--hull down isn't much good if your turret armor is crappy. He didn't mention the value of the smaller target aspect, but I will accept that he is speaking from experience.

One can always use the shoot & scoot to lay smoke. If a tank doesn't seem to have the gun to take out an enemy, it will usually lay smoke instead.

Also, I tested a shoot & scoot using a Crusader mk. III (57mm gun) against a PzIVg at close-to-medium range, shooting at it's front quarter (not direct front). It took three up-and-downs, one per turn, before I registered a kill--the Crusader did not miss--and all hits penetrated the turret. The Panzer did not get a single shot off.

Yohajin :cool:

[yohajin]

The map is approximately 1500m wide and 2000m deep.

I checked out LOS and ranges at various points on the map and came to the conclusion that much of the fighting will take place at ranges of 500 to 1000 meters. There are very few places where engagement is possible beyond 1200m.

There is plenty of opportunity for close-range slugging, of course, but that will depend on the combatants. :D

Be sure to check out the map! There are some very important locations to learn. Again, if anyone can help me on the whole screenshot thing (I have Win 98), I'd really appreciate it. Then I can post pictures illustrating my map ideas.

Yohajin :cool:

[Fionn]

Shoot & Scoot vs Hull-down.

Shoot& Scoot:
Advantage: Enemy has limited time to get shots off at you.
Disadvantage: You usually get only 1 shot off at the enemy. The enemy usually gets at least ONE more shot off at you then you get off at him.

When to use it: Should only be used by high-experience crews where their odds of a first round hit are reasonable. Should be used by thin-skinned vehicles.

So: in German terms Marders, Nashorns etc should use this method. Since they're cheap you can increase their experience markedly ( which gives them a good chance of 1st shot kills) at far less cost than increasing the experience of a Mark IV or III.

How does it work... Marder is in full-defilade when enemy enters a pre-designated engagement area. Marder moves into hull-down position takes 1 long-range shot before the enemy even notices it is there. Marder moves back into cover as enemy return fire whistles overhead. Rinse and repeat. You minimise the chance of less experienced enemy units hitting you since they never get a chance to bracket you with repeated misses and since your units have high experience and high-velocity guns your 1st round hit probability is high.


Hull-down.. usually in a sort of overwatch position. Should only, IMO, be used by units with good turret front armour. If they don't have good turret front armour then they're going to die at the first hit.

So overwatching hull-down should only be practiced by units which have the armour to survive multiple frontal hits.


When the main battle is joined obviously all units most join the fray. This is the time to bring the 50mm frontal-armour Pz IVs into the fray.


I would stress, though, that it is important to engage by platoon. Even a single enemy tank should be engaged by a full platoon. If there are 3 enemy tanks then you need to engage with at least 2 platoons etc etc. Always seek to overmatch the enemy whenever possible.

[The Purist]

"I checked out LOS and ranges at various points on the map and came to the conclusion that much of the fighting will take place at ranges of 500 to 1000 meters. There are very few places where engagement is possible beyond 1200m."

Beware about the hills within each sides set up area. There are places for both sides to have long range snipers reach deep into enemy territory to tag a juicy taget or two. These same spots allow views into sections of the main victory areas as well. Some are a touch subtle.

Our Germans would also be wise not to put all their hopes in hiding in the hollow. The terrain could be used to envelop the location and then you are the fish in the British barrel.

Brits,...you can envelope the hollow, but you will need to surpress the snipers or creep up under cover and then take the plunge.

Sorry,...I'm just a devious bast*rd sometimes.

[yohajin]

I just faced the comp in a 5k, using the following British OoB:
6 Crusader Mk III (Vet)
6 Churchill IV (Vet)
54 Valentine IX (Vet)
1 ind. Crusader Mk II CS (Grn)

German comp OoB:
4 Panzerjager I, Green
8 Marder II, Crack
12 Pz IVG, Veteran
28 Pz IIIJ (late), Regular

The German OoB was as suggested by Purist with one change, swapping out 3 Pz IIC with a platoon of Panzerjager I because they have a decent gun and get tungsten rounds--they might actually do some damage. The comp won't do much scouting.

I took a minor victory. Casualties were about even although I lost a few more, but I had more to lose. I think I'd have done better if I played more carefully. I did a lot of group movement although my early game included a lot of positioning and oversight that I'd do against a human. I did a lot of mass movement toward the end that wasted a lot of my Valentines.

I lost 2 of 6 Churchills even though they did a lot of fighting. Their job was to take and hold the objective (and subsequent punishment) when the time was right. I positioned them in the left center to use the road moving toward the center.

I used the Crusaders to rush overwatch positions on the left and right map edges, each platoon supported by a platoon of Valentines. This proved unnecessary but I later moved them up to flank the enemy. They did well. Against a human things might go differently because in that case the Crusaders might actually get a chance to do some sniping. The CS Crusader has only smoke (and useless HE) and it didn't come into play, but it might against a human.

I used the Valentines as my core fighting force, with three groups of 5 platoons together and the remaining 3 platoons supporting my Crusader force, and one positioned with each Crusader platoon and one on the middle hill with my CS tank. I moved one group up each side in the valleys toward the right and left centers. I kept one group in reserve in the middle right.

In the first few turns I rushed overwatch positions, moved the Churchills to the road, and advanced my Valentine groups. There was no contact for some time, so I moved the left and right Valentine groups, plus the left side overwatch force (1 plat. Crusaders and 1 plat. Valentines), deeper into the map. I also moved the center Valentine force up somewhat. Still no contact but I thought it would occur soon.

I moved the left Valentine group to the middle left depression and the right group to the right side draw that leads to the objective. The Churchills moved up the road and prepared to move toward the middle right, down the hill. The left overwatch group took positions around the left depression to provide cover. I moved the center Valentine group up the right side of the center hill and made contact.

The next move was to bring the right Valentine group forward to engage the advancing force, move the left group to the ridge overlooking the main valley, and bring the Churchills into the fray at the same time.

The rest is history. I didn't maneuver too carefully and it cost me tanks. In the end I had a lot of damaged guns but so did they. I had at least twice as many useable AFVs as they did at the end, perhaps three times as many.

The computer did not play like a human in any simulation I did--meaning that there wasn't much fast movement, they generally went toward the middle, and didn't do any work toward the map edges at all. My simple strategy was to make sure that I always brought more guns to the battle than they did, I coordinated my movements, and made sure any moving group was covered. In most cases I had at least 50% gun superiority.

I'm torn as to whether or not this would be good to promote against a human. The idea of using mostly heavier-armored tanks vs the Germans has merit and it's been advanced here recently, as has the idea of using numbers.

I think my force will have roleplayers--heavy armor for slugging near the objective and Crusaders for speed, but mostly Valentine IX tanks. They are cheap 57mm guns with decent armor and I can buy a million of them. I can't imagine a German force that will be able to withstand this. Unless I maneuver badly, I will always be able to bring lots of guns to bear, and given the map configuration I can gain overwatch with the fast tanks.

The way to counter this, IMO, would be to move snipers up the left German side and move just about everyone else up the middle with some overwatch. This would allow the main body to bring many guns to bear against British forces cresting the hill. Problem with that is that things get dicey toward the objective, especially if the Allied player has a decent number of heavy tanks moving toward the middle. At close range I think numbers would win.

Thoughts? The clock will soon be running... :D

Yohajin :cool:

[The Purist]

Excellent report Yohajin, I know you will do the 'Brigade' proud. I have been practicing with the Germans and British in 'Hotseat Solitaire' and would caution you to make sure you keep a strong force of tanks in an overwatch position. The German 75mm guns have good penetration at long range and you will have to trade casualties with them in order to be able to advance on the objective safely.

I have switched my prefernce for a German force to

8 Marder II (Crack)
12 Pz IVG (veteran)
22 Pz IVG (regular) [2 independant]

I made the decision to drop the Pz IIIs because we cannot be sure of the oppositions OoB and it is probably safer to have fewer tanks with bigger guns. If your German opponent is thinking the same, he may attempt to 'stand-off' and shoot your 'movers' and 'overwatch' from long range. The Germans could hold back 30 or so tanks for long range dueling and only dash forward with a few platoons to the VP area.

[KG_Norad]

We are all a tremble like the race horse in the gates. The Light Brigade will prevail as we are a bold breed! :D

[The Purist]

Well done, Leftenant Norad!!

I can feel the positive forces spreading through the Brigade.

Let it caress you, surround you. Bring it into your being, embrace it, let positive waves bring clear vision to you mind. Let the waves carry you to vicory.

[Doctor Sinister]

Getting close now - I just E-mailed my opponent to introduce myself...Mummy, I'm scared.

One small word of "warning" for everyone - Mrs Sinister is due to have our second child in 8 days, but I'm hoping that this won't cause any delays - if there are problems and it starts to interfere with my game, I will let everyone know so we can discuss it. I only mention this out of courtesy, I am not anticipating any major issues.

(cross fingers, touch wood, turn in a circle three times)

Dr. S.

[The Purist]

Considering we have sixty days to complete 20 turns I think if you managed one file a day you would still come in with a few spare hours.

Besides,...no reason you can't be sending in a file while you're pulling duty on a 0200hrs feeding. Baby and mum will be sleeping at other times as well, just slip out another file.

No worries.

"Mummy, I'm scared"

Bah!!! You are of the 'The Light Brigade', fear is not a word in your vocabulary!

[KG_Norad]

Indeed! You learn to leave fear behind when you fight a pack of dogs! If they smell it on you...you're done for. The only scent that pack will get from me is the vital essence of adrenaline, testosterone and VICTORY! :D :devil:

[Doctor Sinister]

I think "The Light Brigade" is a name well suited to this map and the short time we have to engage the enemy - truly it will have to involve a charge of some kind!

Dr. S.

[The Purist]

Doc, just betwixt you, me and ,...the rest of the team, I think I have settled on the following OoB:

8 Marder II (Crack)
12 Pz IVG (Veteran)
22 Pz IVG (Regular)

I am going to sprint, at most 16 Mk IVs into the hollow and behind the smaller stand of palms. These tanks will then face different appraoaches 'by platoon', each platoon will also be placed where it can quickly reinforce at least one other.

The remaining tanks will all be placed or move into the myriad of 'turret down' positions to the rear where they will 'stand-off' and launch volleys of AP shot (hopefully 12 guns at a time). I hope to set up an 'Agincourt' type blizzard of 75s. This time, it will be British knights who will receive the plunging fire.

One 'trick I will try with the 'shoot and scooters' will be to alternate groups along the same sight line (using set covered arcs). That is to say, just as the opposition will be preparing to volley back at my lads, they will drop out of view. Almost immediately another group will pop up and deliver a volley. As the enemy tries to zero in on them, they will drop out of sight and the original group will pop up again. The goal will be to constantly force the British gunners to switch targets and re-aquire a different vehicle.

Of course, this is easier said than done but I believe with a little thought and frequent use of the '10 second pause' command, the sequencing can be set up. After that, its all up to the opposing gunners.

[Doctor Sinister]

Doc, just betwixt you, me and ,...the rest of the team I think I have settled on the following OoB:

8 Marder II (Crack)
12 Pz IVG (Veteran)
22 Pz IVG (Regular)

I am going to sprint, at most 16 Mk IVs into the hollow and behind the smaller stand of palms. These tanks will then face different appraoaches 'by platoon', each platoon will also be placed where it can quickly reinforce at least one other.

The remaining tanks will all be placed or move into the myriad of 'turret down' positions to the rear where they will 'stand-off' and launch volleys of AP shot (hopefully 12 guns at a time). I hope to set up an 'Agincourt' type blizzard of 75s. This time, it will be British knights who will receive the plunging fire.

One 'trick I will try with the 'shoot and scooters' will be to alternate groups along the same sight line (using set covered arcs). That is to say, just as the opposition will be preparing to volley back at my lads, they will drop out of view. Almost immediately another group will pop up and deliver another volley. As the enemy tries to zero in on them, they will drop out of sight and the original group will pop up again. The goal will be to constantly force the British gunners to switch targets and re-aquire a different vehicle.

Of course, this is easier said than done but I believe with a little thought and frequent use of the '10 second pause' command, the sequencing can be set up. After that, its all up to the opposing gunners.
My hat goes off to you Sir! An ingenious plan that will no doubt see us swilling port in the Mess Hall before the light has faded from the day.

Dr. S.

[The Purist]

"...swilling port..."

Swilling port,...tawny?,...10 year?,....20 year?

Doesn't matter,...capital idea. Perhaps we could hire a local strumpet or three for some 'lively' entertainment as well.

[yohajin]

That tandem shoot-and-scoot thing is a crafty idea, sir! Well done! I will have to figure out how I can use it.

When this is done, assuming I survive, I will be swilling grog with my comrades.

...To the Light Brigade! (Here here!)

Yohajin :cool:

[Fionn]

I feel constrained to point out that while, on the surface, alternating your hull-down units such that the enemy has to continually switch targets isn't, probably, the best way to annihilate the enemy.


It is a tactic which guarantees very few kills on either side since, if done properly, all units involved will only be able to fire a single round at their opponents before either they or their opponents back down out of view. Since hit % ratchets up as the number of rounds exchanged increases anything which reduces the number of rounds exchanged reduces the number of hits.

In addition the advantage in a single exchange goes to the side with the highest experience and the highest muzzle velocity. Since experience is, on the whole, likely to be equal (since no human will waste points on making all of his tanks green or conscript and crack and elite tanks are very expensive) it stands to reason that the side with the higher muzzle velocity ( which due to CM targetting algorithms translates directly into a higher first round hit probability) will have an advantage when few rounds are exchanged.

In this scenario the 6pounders are going to have a major muzzle velocity advantage.


Apart from the above reasons having alternate tanks go hull-down violates the principle of bringing as much of one's force to bear as possible. If you can have 20 tanks hull-down and firing on 10 you stand a good chance of winning. OTOH if you organise them into 4 shifts where only 5 fire at any one time you have gifted the enemy a de facto splitting of your forces and allowed him to achieve fire superiority needlessly.


The one time that I think the above tactic is viable is if you are harrassing an opponent with thin-skinned vehicles, don't really need to kill him as much as slow him, force him to abandon certain routes etc and want to avoid being hit yourself at all costs. So, maybe the Marders can use it to advantage but I'd suggest that the way to use the Pz IVs or IIIs is to unmask them en masse ( 20 or more at once) and try to engage a couple of platoons of the enemy with overwhelming firepower and keep at it till those 2 or 3 platoons are smoking.

Back down to full defilade and repeat as necessary.

No pressure or chastising of anyone's tactics here. I just think that, perhaps, the full implications of the tactics and their interaction with the technical characteristics of the vehicles involved wasn't fully explained.

[The Purist]

Well,...I do not really plan on using the actual "shoot and scoot" function, but rather the platoons (3 or so) would roll up into HD positions at the end of T1, fire throughout T2, reverse down on T3 (probably getting a fianl shot off before doing so). Thus, the volleys will head 'down range' for slightly over 60 seconds,...that's 3 to 4, maybe 5 shots.

Considering the points are equal and the British tanks somewhat cheaper, I do not see our Germans having a numerical superiority, even 'locally' if our Brit opponents are at all competent ( I am assuming they know what they are doing). Now,...of the three models carrying the 57mm gun, only Crusader has superior speed, Valentine and Churchill are much slower. In open ground, playing the 'hide and seek' game we can pop up and down faster, presenting a harder target to hit, assuming speed is a factor in the to hit process. We should be able to hit the slower tanks moving in the open more often than we are hit in HD positions.

By rushing a force into the VP area, I hope to take the initiative from the British and force him to move. If he sits pat and tries to duel with me at range I will not oblige him and will stay 'turret down', only popping up a 'snooper' here and there to keep track of him as well as watch for the dust. Eventually the Brits will have to break cover and that is when the Germans can begin either my 'volley by ranks' or Fionn's 'massive barrage'. In the end I may try both styles dependant on the situation.

Inevitably, where the British throw their main attack will greatly effect German tactics. The German right (Brit left) is best suited to the volley fire tactics, the left flank less so. If the Brits come hard from their left they will suffer losses, hopefully heavy, as they climb, secure and cross the main plateau en route to the VP area. They will have no choice but to engage the German overwatch positions or simply take it on the chin until the palms cover their move. Once on the plateau they can then look down into the hollow and will have to engage the German force there. This final approach will most likely be supported by a secondary, but by no means small, drive through the low ground on the their right. Combining the fire base on the plateau with the final push over the ridges on the right, could overwhelm the German defense.

If they abandon the plateau approach they have a fairly well covered approach on the German left but will 'crest' themselves as they come over the ridges into the VP area. A too small force on their left will allow the Germans to shift left or, perhaps worse, allow the Germans to smash this force and then move forwards to the flank or simply reinforce the hollow. A main push from the British right would be much more of a knife fight and far more chancy for the Brits (IMO).

Coming over the ridges will catch the Brits on the move while the Germans are laying in wait. If there is no fire base on the plateau they will be unable to harass the defenses and will have to decide the battle in the melee. It is my view that the Brits must push up their left and then wheel inwards and that is why I will be deploying my main forces to cover the open ground on the German right. If I have guessed wrong the move left would take three to four turns to accomplish and the tanks should be in position to meet the British charge.

The final act could be a late game German counter-charge of Mk IVs, supported by the remaining Marders, smashing into the shattered remnants of the Brits amongst the shattered remnants of the German forward position.

Hang on boys and girls,...it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[yohajin]

I still think the tandem shoot-and-scoot idea is cool. :p

But as Purist mentioned, I'm not holding out for such tactics either. I'm just excited to add it to my arsenal of ideas, which might come in handy if my enemy's plan makes it so. Given that this is gonna be a 20 turn game, there doesn't seem to be much time for that sort of nonsense except to slow someone down, and even then...

Yohajin :cool:

[Fionn]

1. regarding local superiority... As the enemy passes by an intervisibility line it should always be possible to achieve local fire superiority. That's why firing into enemy units as they pass around a hill or over the crest of a hill is so endlessly popular.


2. Don't forget that when you are firing at the enemy your vehicles will be stopped so that'll make the enemy to hit% higher than if your tanks were also moving.


FWIW I would suggest to people that the British will come in on the German RIGHT and the Germans will attack more on the British right/centre. If you're going to try to predict where enemy units will go I think those are the approaches they'll use.


Anyways, best of luck to everyone. I look forward to seeing how it goes.