Loss penalties.

[rasmus]

So now the tournament is rolling and every point counts.
That has led me to ponder a few questions that I hope can be answered by the enlightened ones.

Regarding loss penalties:
1. What is counted here? equipment numbers, weight, squads or what?
2. Will killing off a surrounded unsupplied unit make my opponents loss penalty higher than if it was supplied?
3. Does disbanding affect loss penalties?
4. Does supply and replacements affect loss penalties?

Please help me answer these questions, and I will be forever gratefull. :hail:

[CyberRanger]

ah I finally found it:

These are answers Norm gave on the old Talonsoft site long ago. The questioners were Jarek Filis and myself:

What is loss penalty depend on?

It is based on a comparison of the total raw strength (just equipment, without any modifiers) of all units at the moment of the check vs. the original raw strength.

Why disbanding of own unit increases it?

The equipment of the disbanded unit is temporarily unassigned. But in most scenarios if you wait a bit the equipment will be reassigned and the loss penalty for the disbanded unit will vanish. This means you might want to be careful about disbanding units if there isn't enough time for the equipment to recycle before the end of the scenario.

What about recieved reinforcement, event activated reinforcement that never entered the game, withdrawn units, reconstituted units, that wait for future turns

All units defined in the scenario, including those that never enter the game, are included in the calculation. Withdrawn units are considered as intact.

By "original raw strength" are you referring to just assigned equipment, or to all authorized equipment?

Assigned equipment.

If a unit begins the scenario at half strength and ends it at half strength does it add to the loss penalty?

No.

What if that same unit ends the scenario at full strength?

It would actually make up for losses elsewhere. There is a limit in the calculation. The force value can never actually be raised above the original for victory purposes. So you can't grow your way to victory. Of course, that's not likely to happen in most scenarios.

Are all equipment types equal or does the value of the equipment enter the calculation?

It's based on anti-personnel strength. I just checked the code and it actually surprised me. I thought it checked for anti-armor as well. So you really want to avoid losing things like warships, late model bombers, and heavy artillery. On the other hand, you can feel free to "expend" things like ATGM units.

A loss of 2 Me-109E/F is the same a loss of one MMG? I'm not sure, that Speer could agree...

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't. Actually, neither do I, so I will hit the code on my next tinker day. But it will probably only show up on the next iteration of TOAW (years off) or another game which inherits part of the TOAW engine code.

From this thread - http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1136

[Legun]

The problem was discussed with Norm many years ago. The issue is questionable, but the reality is as follow:

1. What is counted here? equipment numbers, weight, squads or what?

It depends on AP only. A loss of single MMG is as painful as a loss of M-109 for the German Player. For US army a loss of 40 GI's is equal to a loss of single 105mm Howitzer. :o

3. Does disbanding affect loss penalties?


As far as an equipmentin "on hand" is counted as lost. If the equipment is absorbed as replacements to an playing unit, there is no effect.

4. Does supply and replacements affect loss penalties?


Supply doesn't. Replacements affect loss penalties if they fulfill TO&E of units on board or cause a reconstitution of unit


2. Will killing off a surrounded unsupplied unit make my opponents loss penalty higher than if it was supplied?

If more equipment is real lost.

[Legun]

Oh, what's a coordination :).

[rasmus]

Thanks for the prompt replies. I am now a little wiserand will hopefully put this to good use in the tournament. ;)

[viridomaros]

nice topic
i already had the feeling that losing artillery was quite bad for the losses penalty but i didn't it was based only on ap strenght, good to know this

[rasmus]

I just did a small test disbanding my own units and watching the Loss meter rise. Sometimes it fails to rise when units are disbanded. Is there a check involved somewhere?

[Mantis]

In Fall Grau, Jeremy discovered that the 'level' that the losses are checked against is the starting levels of equipment on the map, iirc. The problem was that in FG, you keep receiving more and more units as time goes on, so the loss penalties almost always said 0 throughout the game, even after some very extreme fighting. I think he made some modifications and increased the equipment on hand for the units on map, and simulated their unprepadedness with a very low starting supply and readiness level, instead of being 'in the green' but needing equipment.

[rasmus]

Thanks. But this still does not explain the lack of rise I found when disbanding similar units in the same turn. SOme would drive the loss penalty up, others did not.

[viridomaros]

i guess it depends of the unit
did you try disbanding artillery unit or bomber unit?

[rasmus]

i guess it depends of the unit
did you try disbanding artillery unit or bomber unit?

INF BDEs in Tanneberg 14. Strength numbers identical.