Spanish Torch [Archive] - GameSquad Forums

JMS

14 Oct 04, 03:37

I'd be interested in working on some TOAW scenarios based on GDW's "Spanish Torch idea" on a 1942 landing of US/British/Free French forces in North Africa AND in Spain.

I would like to research the OOB's the political events, a portugal entry option, etc. German possible intervention vs. Tunisia, etc. etc.

any ideas?

I have just about everything you need, just give me some time to line up my ducks and I will get back to you. For starters, you have Niehorster's Spanish OOB here:

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/080_spain/40_army/__army.html

And an interesting article on Felix and its derivatives here:

http://stonebooks.com/history/felix.shtml

My scenario on Operation Felix has the deployment of the Spanish and Portuguese Armies as of 1940. By 1942 there had been a couple of changes. I have posted it in the scenario depot. Oops, just noted it's version 1 so the Portuguese OOB is not reliable.

piero1971

14 Oct 04, 04:00

JMS

14 Oct 04, 09:44

obligado, gracias!

why not first work to improove further the Felix scenario (map perhaps, OOB for portugal, etc?) some options, etc.) and then from that, once familiarized with it we moove on the Spanish Torch one?

I do have an improved version. I'll update the scenario tonight. What needs to be done is:
- mapwise: the North of Morocco
- OOB: update the German OOB with the units that would go there and give them the equipment they would have in 1943 and update the Spanish Army with the coastal defences that were set up in the south. The allies armies have to be built from scratch but it shouldn't be that hard.

The big question is what are the hypothesis. My scenario works around a German invasion that the Iberians fight. As I am understanding your idea, it would be the Allies and the Portuguese vs. Germans and Spaniards?

JMS

14 Oct 04, 14:10

Operation Isabella V2 posted. All OOBs and deployments are correct, though coastal batteries are still missing.

JMS

14 Oct 04, 14:31

For those who dare with the Spanish, I recommend:

http://www.militar.org.ua/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4737

For an overview

nemo

14 Oct 04, 15:53

For those who dare with the Spanish, I recommend:

http://www.militar.org.ua/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4737

For an overviewThanks - interesting forums.

JMS

15 Oct 04, 04:31

Finally, from memory, here is a map with the allied plans for Operation Backbone II (dated March 1943) an ellaboration of an earlier plan for the occupation of the Spanish Morocco, and the deployment of the organic forces in the Protectorate.

Backbone II included the dropping of fake paratroopers to support the feint of the 1st ID.

Naval support would have been provided by 5 carriers, 2 in the Atlantic and 3 in the Mediterranean with 236 aircraft, including 146 Spitfires and 37 Hurricanes. Naval gunfire support for the landings would be provided by 1 cruiser and 4 destroyers in the Atlantic and by 3 Cruisers and 4 destroyers in the Med. Commando raids were to be aimed at the coastal batteries in the strait on the African side.

The Atlantic landing, aimed at Tanger, would be undertaken by the 1st US ID supported by a Paratroop Battalion (450 men) and a British Commando. Once an airfield had been taken, 12th AF would have staged forward 6 Spitfire Squadrons (120 a/c). Armored support would have been provided by a Churchill squadron (20 tanks). 16.000 men would have been landed.

The Med landing, aimed at Ceuta, would be undertaken by the 4th US ID, with the British 24th Infantry Brigade in reserve and be supported by 2 Valentine squadrons (40 tanks). The beaches were divided in 2 sectors: King and Lemon. Troops landed in King (8.468 men and 958 vehicles) were to run North to Ceuta, while the landings at Lemon (8.358 men and 700 vehicles) were aimed at Tetouan and its airport. This last were to be supported by Commandos too.

JMS

16 Oct 04, 08:06

Here is the deployment of the Spanish fixed coast artillery in the Strait of Gibraltar on November 1942. The numbers indicate the number of guns per battery. Those on the North were part of the Agrupación del Estrecho and those in the South formed the 4th Coastal Artillery Regiment (Regimiento de Artillería de Costa 4). In addition, the following field artillery was available:

North: 4 127mm guns, 4 155mm howitzers, 4 155mm guns, 4 152mm howitzers, 4 105mm guns, 4 106mm guns; all WW1 leftovers from the Civil War.

South: 4 155mm howitzers, 12 75mm guns.

On another matter, the OOB in Africa was the following:

GFRI and Tercios are regimental sized formations of the Regulares (native troops) and the Legión (Foreign legion)

Overall commander: Gen. Orgaz Yoldi

Army troops
- 5th Tank Regiment
- 15th Dragoon Regiment "Alcantara" (Mt. Arruit)
- Cyclist Battalion (Mt. Arruit)

-IX Corps (Gen. García Valiño)
* 9th Cavalry Group
* 49th Artillery Regiment
* 4th Coast Artillery Regiment
* 9th Engineer Regiment

* 41st Infantry Division (from Barcelona, Shouk T'zelata)
** 14th Infantry Regiment
** 74th Infantry Regiment
** 2 Native Police battalion from the Tetuan Mehala nº1
** 19th Artillery Regiment
** Machinegun Co from 2nd Tercio
** Garrison Cos from GFRI 1, 3 and 8
** Light coast defence battery

* 52nd Mountain Division (from Huesca, in Tanger)
** 13th Infantry Regiment
** 58th Infantry Regiment
** Native Police battalion from the Tetuan Mehala
** 23rd Artillery Regiment

* 91st Infantry Division (Ceuta)
** GFRI nº3
** GFRI nº1
** 30th Artillery Regiment
** Cavalry Battalion of GFRI 1

* 92nd Infantry Division (Larache-Alcazarquivir)
** GFRI nº4
** 3rd Tercio
** 19th Infantry Regiment
** 20th Infantry Regiment
** 86th Machinegun/mortar Regiment
** 89th Machinegun/mortar Regiment
** 31st Artillery Regiment
** Light coast defence battery
** Cavalry Battalion of GFRI 4

* 93rd Infantry Division (Xauen)
** 2nd Tercio
** GFRI nº6
** GFRI nº8
** Cavalry Battalion of GFRI 6
** 32nd Artillery Regiment

- X Corps (Gen. Bautista Sánchez)
* Mixed Mortar/Machine-gun Regiment
* 100th Cavalry Group
* 50th Artillery Regiment
* 50th Mixed Engineer Regiment (1 signals and 1 sapper Bn)
* 23rd Garrison Battalion
* 24th Machine-gun battalion
* 5th Construction Regiment
* Detachment of 4th Coast Artillery Regiment
* Mehala of Melilla nº2 (Native police): 4 Infantry and 1 cavalry battalions
* Mehala of Rif nº5 (Al Hozeima): 4 Infantry battalions and an ski company

* 101st Division
** 52nd Infantry Regiment (Melilla)
** GFRI nº2 (Nador)
** GFRI nº7 (Melilla)
** 1st Tercio (Tahuima)
** Cavalry Battalion of GFRI 2 (Nador)
** 33rd Artillery Regiment (105mm, 75mm and 65mm Battalions)
** Divisional cavalry squadron (Mulay Rashid)

* 102nd Division
** GFRI nº5 (Segangan)
** GFRI nº8 (Shouk el Had)
** 34th Artillery Regiment
** Engineer Battalion
** 25th Garrison Battalion
** 26th Machine-gun battalion

1st Tercio had 4 battalions while the other 2 had 3. GFRI had 3 Infantry battalions of 4 Infantry and 1 support company. Their Cavalry battalions had 3 saber and 1 support troop.

Air Forces:

ZONA AEREA DE AFRICA:

* 27 Mixed Fighter Group. Melilla He-112 and Fiat G-50
* 43 Army Co-operation Group,Tetuan. Polikarpoz R-5 Natachas
* 41 squadron.Tatuan. HS-126
* 51 squadron.El atalayon. flying boats

In all, 150.000 men (including 14.000 construction troops), 200 armored vehicles CV-33, T-26 and Chevrolet a/c - a BA-6 lookalike) and 60 aircraft. All forces were at 100% TOE strength with full supply stocks available. The blue lines around Melilla show the defensive lines, composed of concrete fortifications.

The OOB in S. Spain was:
- II Corps
* 21st Infantry Division
* 22nd Infantry Division
* 23rd Infantry Division

piero1971

18 Oct 04, 07:40

VERY nice (I'm back from a week-end).

For a German Invasion of Spain, the question is of course, how seriously would France fight the Germans? i.e. would he just drop it and become an unwilling ally of Germany.

For a Spanish Torch, the idea could be that while simultaniously committing forces for the landings in North Africa, the allies also land troops in Spanish-Morocco and basically declare war to Spain in the a larger aim of "anti-fascist" war, but also with aim to stretch German forces too thin (to choose between supplying Rommel and holding Tunisia, or committing to Spain, all the while The Soiet winter 1942 and spring 1943 offensive was raging. a further 2-3 divisions (would they be available?) of each US and British to land in Spain (or Portugal) would see combat against spanish forces reinforces by limited(?) german units from France (what units were refitting there?) but also helped by republican forces (any dormant groups left by 1942? Any able to be supplied and arm up? and in South of France?)

JMS

19 Oct 04, 03:43

In reality, the French were powerless to stop the Germans, due to lack of means and to the worry of what may happen when the invasion ends.

The allies had other forces uncomitted (and I am thinking about the Canadian divisions marking time in Britain) the question being if the sealift and landing craft were available.

piero1971

19 Oct 04, 05:06

piero1971

19 Oct 04, 05:43

by the way, any map scale that would make sense (I personally like a lot the 2.5 km per hex, but perhaps 5km per hex is more judicious?

piero

JMS

19 Oct 04, 07:00

from my memory, the sealift capacity was quite limited at the end of nov 42. Torch was already quite an impressive feat, considering the PAcific theater needs.

perhaps the Torch (phase 1 of landings in North Africa, in nov 42) sealift assets can go back to the uk (suffer 10% attrition from u-boote) and back to Spain/El Rif with the Canadian corps and more US forces.

for the french, i meant resistance or former spanish republicans that were living at the times in the Toulouse area (and that joined the resistance anyway when the German occupied the Vichy zone)

The Kriegsmarine sent a number of U boats to interfere with the Moroccan portion of Torch, achieving some results (I know there is an issue of the french naval magazine Marines devoted to it, but can't remember which). Losses of landing craft were substantial due to the lack of training of the boatswains, but then, most of them came from the US and there would be plenty of LCAs lying around British ports.
A more substantial impact may be caused by the subsidiary operation to take the Canary Islands, something that must de done to avoid giving U-boats a base in the doorstep of the landings, but since there were several convoys supporting Torch, it is conceivable that those that had the first and second wave could go back and bring more forces.

As to the Republicans in France, there were enough of them that after the Normandy landings and German retreat, they were able to invade the Arán Valley (which is on the "french" side of the Pyrinees) and required forces in divisional strength to evict them. There were some guerrillas in the Peninsula proper but they were dealt mostly by the Guardia Civil and Police forces, with some support from the Army. There was little likehood of a Republican uprising, most people being plain fed-up with the war.

Of course, there was also the "Blue Division" which would have been withdrawn from Russia to help in the defence.

As for scale, the Isabella map is at 10 Km/hex, which I feel it's appropiate for the whole peninsula plus Morocco, but if the scenario is confined to just Morocco, 5Km sounds about right, with the battalion as the basic unit of maneuver.

Case

19 Oct 04, 07:18

A few points:

1) If the Allies had landed in Spain as part of Torch, the composition of the forces sent to North Africa would have been quite different. One of the major tasks given to the US forces landing in the west was to counter any Spanish counter-attack. As such, a large chunk of these forces would have been dedicated to attacking Spain.

2) The size of such an undertaking would have required that assets be stripped from the Pacific, if only to provide the necessary sealift. As such, the US 2nd Marine Division may have been available.

3) The German U-Boats weren't actually very sucessful off North Africa, and suffered high losses while operating there. 10% losses in Allied shipping is a massive overestimate, true losses from enemy action were probably something like 1% of the shipping involved.

piero1971

19 Oct 04, 08:06

I checked you r map. It is great! (I would make Gibraltar slightly different to make sure it can be attacke from one hex side only though).

yes, the Canarias and Baleares, that's important to add (perhaps as off-map places with their own independent forces.

such a scenario could be interesitng for the 50%-50% chance of success. it would be a high gamble for the Allies to attempt that.

sure, the Blue division would have come back... AGN in russia could afford one less division. I wonder what were the divisions in France able to intervene in Spain?

what would be the effect of that on Italy and Allied operations against Sicily? I would say that an allied invasion in Spain (December 1942? can it be done, re. weather and sea conditions?) would mean no landings on Sicily for a while, thus, no Italian surrender and less German troops needed for Italy (but still some for Tunisia)..... that means the 1st Para division (refitting in France as the main elite elements, the 15th PzGrenadier division, as the armoured backbone - and perhaps the Hermann GOering division (not committed to Tunisia..?) as for infantry and static divisions, I have no idea. Need to research. Also the creation of a "Pyreneean Wall".

I wonder also since North Africa and Tunisia showed the greenish aptitude of the US troops and their general weak performance, how these would have fared against VERY experienced spanish forces on their own land....

the portugese option is interesting.. makes landings not a problem in December (Faro, Lisbon, Porto, etc.)..... a 20th century remake of the Peninsula War ??!!

piero1971

19 Oct 04, 08:10

A few points:
3) The German U-Boats weren't actually very sucessful off North Africa, and suffered high losses while operating there. 10% losses in Allied shipping is a massive overestimate, true losses from enemy action were probably something like 1% of the shipping involved.

I think you are right. I meant however the losses from the landings, plus going back to Ingland to pick up other forces and back (and U-boote plus german air force). still 10% is probably high

JMS

19 Oct 04, 12:08

I think you are right. I meant however the losses from the landings, plus going back to Ingland to pick up other forces and back (and U-boote plus german air force). still 10% is probably high

Let's start with the Panzer and Motorised Infantry Divisions,

1. Panzerdivision Russia
2. Panzerdivision Russia
3. Panzerdivision Russia
4. Panzerdivision Russia
5. Panzerdivision Russia
6. Panzerdivision France
7. Panzerdivision France
8. Panzerdivision Russia
9. Panzerdivision Russia
10. Panzerdivision France
11. Panzerdivision Russia
12. Panzerdivision Russia
13. Panzerdivision Russia
14. Panzerdivision Russia
15. Panzerdivision Africa
16. Panzerdivision Russia
17. Panzerdivision Russia
18. Panzerdivision Russia
19. Panzerdivision Russia
20. Panzerdivision Russia
21. Panzerdivision Africa
22. Panzerdivision Russia
23. Panzerdivision Russia
24. Panzerdivision Russia
25. Panzerdivision Norway
26. Panzerdivision France
27. Panzerdivision Russia
Panzer-Brigade 100 France

Infanterie-Division (mot). 3 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 16 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 25 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 10 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 18 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 29 Russia
Infanterie-Division (mot). 20 Russia
233. Panzer-Grenadier-Division Germany

piero1971

20 Oct 04, 03:43

JMS

20 Oct 04, 03:57

nice, so that leaves, the pzD : 6-7-10-24 for possible deployment. How battered are they how much reffitting were they in? Assuming at least one has to be left in France, and one in Germany/France, one sent to Italy one (the strongest one) can be sent to Spain. the PzG div available could be sent too... but how bad was it - remember op. Uranus was also about to happen.

it's got to end up with infantry corps and the Spanish doing much of the fight on the Axis side.

Knowing Mussolini, he would probably have sent an infantry and a mountain corps to Spain but few planes (most were either gone or in defense of Italy at the time). I'd say two x two divisions (and French equipped tank regiment) from North Italy could be sent by rail - but with low morale and supply - Italy was way overstretched at the time in the Balkans and about to loose Libya. some event could make them withdraw if situation is grim for the Axis player.

perhaps an Italian and or a spanish SS formation would be created earlier than in reality. most probably Infantry with Flak and obsolete (french) armor.

Panzer brigade 100 with 2 regiments was equipped with captured french tanks, I imagine that mainly Somuas. 26 PzD was in training I believe. 10 PzD was sent to Tunis so that was ready, IIRC together with a Tiger Bn (501?). 6 PzD had been mauled in Russia, but I don't know how it was recovering. No info on 7.PzD. 233 PzGdr was a training division, providing replacements to mobile units, so if the emergency was bad enough it could be sent to the front.

I have to check this yet, but on mobilisation the Spanish Army would double from 30 to 60 divisions by creating 100 series regiments (i.e. the new regiment's number would be the result of adding 100), but I think this mostly applied to Infantry as I don't think there were enough guns around, certainly tanks were insufficient to do this.

piero1971

20 Oct 04, 10:21

Martin Schenkel

20 Oct 04, 15:09

that means the 1st Para division (refitting in France as the main elite elements, the 15th PzGrenadier division, as the armoured backbone - and perhaps the Hermann GOering division (not committed to Tunisia..?) as for infantry and static divisions, I have no idea. Need to research. Also the creation of a "Pyreneean Wall".

1st Para: Still in Russia (as 7th Flieger Div). It wasn't withdrawn to France until the spring of 1943.
15th PanzerGrenadier: wasn't formed untill Jul 43.
Hermann Goering Brigade: expanded to a division in Nov 42. 75% of the Division was sent to Tunisia in Feb/Mar 43.
6th Panzer: NW France in Nov 42. Sent to Russia in Dec 42.
7th Panzer: S France in Dec 42. Sent to Russia in Jan 43.
10th Panzer: NW France in Oct 42. Sent to Tunisia Nov 42.
26th Panzer: Formed in NW France Oct 42.

German 1. Armee (SW France) In Dec 42 had:
LXXXVI Korps (344 ID, 715 ID)
LXXX Korps (15 ID, 708 ID)

German 19. Armee (then known as Armee Gruppe Felber for occupation of Vichy France) In Dec 42 had:
326 ID, 328 ID, 335 ID

If you need further help with German or Allied formations let me know.

JMS

20 Oct 04, 15:11

and there we hit reality:

100 divisions, if only half were well equiped puts the Allied against a harsh reality in their approach to combat, that is to never fight outnumbered, expecially in offensive operations, against a non-softened up (bombed) foe... hmmm... 60 divisions to attack with (one canadian, one british, one american corps) 3x3 : 9-10 divisions... .it would be suicide. even without the german forces intervening.

ah, one of those moments of daunting challenge, before starting a scenario..

Not really. I have asked around and it seems that all infantry regiments could span a 100 series unit as most of the artillery regiments, but here reality rears its ugly head :devil: mobility would have been seriously restricted for a lack of both vehicles and fuel. Historically only the forces in the Canary islands and the mobilisation divisions that replaced 52 and 41 divisions were called up, so at best you have a massed infantry army, half of which is barely able to move (think 711 division in Normandy) with few and outdated tanks and planes to hold off the initial invasion, both sides reinforcing rapidly but with the allied having the advantage in quality (we are pitting Shermans and Lees against Pz-III and short-barreled Pz-IVs at this stage) so you have an small, motorised force triying to defeat a larger, unmotorised one in rough terrain, interesting match-up.

piero1971

21 Oct 04, 10:52

interesting indeed. makes it more balanced again... still a challenge for the aliied.

- what would the allies airborne assets for this operation? and from where could they be used?

- how about air operations. assuming some carriers would be availabel after Torch, it would still be limited, right? airbases from French Morocco and Western Algeria could be used

- spanish desertion rate. Would spanish forces fight hard against "invasion" and mount guerilla warfare behind the lines or would they fight a bit and surrender en masse to the "liberators".

The Purist

21 Oct 04, 12:03

What was the Spanish infrastructure like (rail and road)? The ability of the Germans to reinforce with even a handful of divisions would depend heavily on the conditions of the rail/road net.

How unified was Spain at this point? Would the army have fought the allies or would the Germans have another unmotivated ally on their hands?

What was the actual fighting ability of Spanish divisions? Was equipment still mainly dating from the civil war? Would these divisions be able to offer significant resistance?

A lot would depend on who got their airforce up and running in the theatre first. Was the Luftwaffe capable of rushing to the aid of Spain to interdict the allied build up.

A very facinating "what-if".

Personally, I think the "Spanish Gambit" would have doomed Torch to failure as well as any Mediterranean campaign. It is a very long haul from Gibraltar to the Rhine and the resources committed might haver meant the cancellation of even Overlord. Interesting idea if combined with outflanking amphib attacks in 43 and 44. But,...did the allies have the troops available to reinforce success?

Martin Schenkel

21 Oct 04, 13:41

- what would the allies airborne assets for this operation? and from where could they be used?

The 1st British Airborne Division was formed in 1941, so it would have been available for operations. US Airborne Divisions were still forming in the USA at this time (82nd didn't arrive in UK until May 43).

JMS

21 Oct 04, 15:51

interesting indeed. makes it more balanced again... still a challenge for the aliied.

- what would the allies airborne assets for this operation? and from where could they be used?

As Martin said, 1st Airborne was ready, and the Americans dropped 2/503 Airborne Rgt in the Oran landings. Backbone II included a 450 men Bn in its planning

- how about air operations. assuming some carriers would be availabel after Torch, it would still be limited, right? airbases from French Morocco and Western Algeria could be used

Torch depended on the landing forces seizing airfields for air support. The strait is only 15 Km and the closer bases in the Peninsula were in Seville and Malaga, so air support would have been feasible from French morocco and Tanger

- spanish desertion rate. Would spanish forces fight hard against "invasion" and mount guerilla warfare behind the lines or would they fight a bit and surrender en masse to the "liberators".

The Army would have fought unanimously as there was no alternative to Franco that hadn't been discredited. As for guerrillas, it's difficult to asses, mainly because the allies wouldn't rule with an iron fist and were likely to use existing governement structures.

JMS

21 Oct 04, 15:59

What was the Spanish infrastructure like (rail and rod)? The ability of the Germans to reinforce with even a handful of divisions would depend heavily on the conditions of the rail/road net.

The damage to infrastructure from the civil war was fully repaired by 1943. Moreover, half of the country (including Castille and Andalusia) hadn't been touched by the war at all. As an example, it only took 20 days total to set up, equip and have the Blue division in the French border. Figure 3-5 days to get a division to the south.

How unified was Spain at this point? Would the army have fought the allies or would the Germans have another unmotivated ally on their hands?

The answer is very. The war had forced the leftist leadership out of the country and on the right no one dared or had the prestige to contend the top spot with Franco. Anyone imposed from outside would have been considered a puppet of the allies, which weren't very well seen after the Civil War.

What was the actual fighting ability of Spanish divisions? Was equipment still mainly dating from the civil war? Would these divisions be able to offer significant resistance?

The Army would have been manned by veterans and even those mobilised would have been through the war, so it would have been quite veteran. Some units, like the moroccan troops or the Legion were definitely considered elite. Equipment was the greatest problem, most dating from the war, with just about nothing being procured later than 1939

A lot would depend on who got their airforce up and running in the theatre first. Was the Luftwaffe capable of rushing to the aid of Spain to interdict the allied build up.

The Luftwaffe proved capable of reacting with remarkable speed, but by then it was outnumbered everywhere and about to be strained by the effort to supply Stalingrad

A very facinating "what-if".

Personally, I think the "Spanish Gambit" would have doomed Torch to failure as well as any Mediterranean campaign. It is a very long haul from Gibraltar to the Rhine and the resources committed might haver meant the cancellation of even Overlord. Interesting idea if combined with outflanking amphib attacks in 43 and 44. But,...did the allies have the troops available to reinforce success?

The troops were available, more so since from the German perspective they had to choose: where do you defend? in Tunis or in Spain?

The Purist

22 Oct 04, 08:36

Very interesting.

How was a Spanish infantry division organized? Was it a standard triangular division of 3 regiments of 3 battalions? How did a Spanish divison compare in firepower to an allied division in early 1943?

How many divisions could Spain mobilize in case of an invasion? Could all these divisions be kept supplied and equipped if the campaign stretched on (what was Spain war industry capable of producing to keep up the fight)?

Finally, of the the total divisions mobilized, how many would have been require for coast defense vs how many could be commited to a landing in the south (combined with an attack from Gibraltar)?

Sorry for all the questions but this the first time I have had an opportunity to speak with people who would know the answer to questions such as these.

Tim McBride

22 Oct 04, 09:47

If you guys need it, I can get the actually numbers of tanks for the Panzer units in France, and figure out the available production based off the figures available from Jentz.

_Tim

The Purist

22 Oct 04, 11:09

"I can get the actually numbers of tanks for the Panzer units in France,..."

From a purely historical point of view an invasion of Spain would have drastically altered the strategic situation in Europe. One could assume that any panzer unit dispatched to Spain would have been given up-to-date equipment or received it shortly after arrival in theatre.

Assuming the landing take place before the Stalingrad debacle one would have to wonder if the SS Panzer Corp would have been sent to Russia. It is very likely that these divisions (in the middle of refitting, if I recall correctly) could have been rushed southwestward with their Pz IIIJ/Ls, Pz IVF2s and handful of Tigers. It may not have been necessary to re-equip the other panzer divisions "in a rush". What would this have meant in Russia in Jan 1943 when the southern front collapsed? Could Manstein have retreived the situation without the troops reinforcement he received? The implications in Russia for the Germans are serious if not frightening.

Further, small landings in Morocco and the involvement of Spain may not have led to a Vichy capitulation. If we assume that the major troop commitment would be to Spain and the landings in Algeria cancelled due to a lack of troops is the Moroccan operation viable. Is not conceivable that the much reduced US landings on the Moroccan coast could have been contained or even forced to re-embark if the bulk of Vichy forces were concentrated against it.

If, on the other hand, the Moroccan landing are deemed to be small enough to ignore for the moment there is no need to fly in the troops to Tunisia. It may require only some light troops (airbourne) to back up the Vichy forces fighting Patton far to the west, with the other troops committed to Spain or given to Rommel. With the rear of Panzer Army Afrika secure, the axis could have re-equipped and reinforced these troops in a more leisurely manner. Rommel would still have had to retreat to Tunisia but the danger would have been much reduced.

This leaves the winter campaign in southern and central Spain. What troops could be sent by the allies? How many divisions could the Germans spare (considering they would now fear further landings)? Would the Spanish army be capable of offering long term resistance? How does this all effect the Pacific (Guadalcanal and New Guinea)? What happens in Russia in February and March of 1943?

I wonder if this could be modelled on a global scale?

Just a flight of fancy.... sorry.

piero1971

22 Oct 04, 11:53

Purist,

your points are exactly why this is fascinating, no? I think one hs to consider this, Vichy, the Italians and the Tunisia aspects. Actually, what should be done is stretch the map to include North Africa up to the Tunisia/Lybia point. Add the briths 8th Army and parts of Sicily, and simulate 1.Torch - options to land or not in Algeria, with effects on Vichy fight or not 2. Spain landings and lots of theater options on what units to send or not and their possible consequences (i.e. if SS panzer corps sent to Spain, manstein has only a 20% chance to turn the tide at Kharkov and Rostov (he would get weaker units), etc. I think lots of Theater Options is the way to go for units and reinforcements.

JMS

22 Oct 04, 12:03

Very interesting.

How was a Spanish infantry division organized? Was it a standard triangular division of 3 regiments of 3 battalions? How did a Spanish divison compare in firepower to an allied division in early 1943?

The TOE was as follows:

- Divisional HQ

- 3 Infantry Regiments
** 3 Infantry Battalions
*** 3 Rifle companies
*** 1 Support company
** Anti-tank company
** AA machine-gun company
** Infantry gun company (65mm guns)
** Destruction section

- Artillery Regiment
** HQ
** 1 155mm or 149mm Howitzer Battalion (12 guns)
** 2 75mm gun or 105mm howitzer battalions (12 guns each)
** 2 AA machine-gun sections

One of the light artillery battalions was supposed to be motorised

- Engineer battalion
** HQ
** 1 Motorised sapper company
** 2 Sapper companies

- Divisional signals and services

Tank Regiment. 1940:

31 light tanks (Pz-1 or CV-33)
27 medium tanks (T-26)
6 45mm AT guns
7 motorcycles
94 other motor vehicles

How many divisions could Spain mobilize in case of an invasion? Could all these divisions be kept supplied and equipped if the campaign stretched on (what was Spain war industry capable of producing to keep up the fight)?

There were 30 or so in the peacetime Army so there would be 60 or so. There would be enough leftovers from the war and captured booty to keep going for a time.

Finally, of the the total divisions mobilized, how many would have been require for coast defense vs how many could be commited to a landing in the south (combined with an attack from Gibraltar)?

Sorry for all the questions but this the first time I have had an opportunity to speak with people who would know the answer to questions such as these.

I would guess that most of them would be needed to cover the border with Portugal rather than the coast. Gibraltar didn't mount to much as a base, as it could be shelled with near impunity and lacked support facilities for any substantial force. On the contrary, one of the first things an invading force will have to do is to relief it from siege, to open the way into the Med and open the Mediterranean coast to invasion. Mobilisation divisions would be most likely used to garrison the borders as they lacked mobility.

The Purist

22 Oct 04, 12:41

It appears that the divisions are equipped with materiel that is quite out of date. The fact that half or more of the army is reservist and "static" suggests that the combat power, or 'staying' power, of any single division versus a 1942 style British or American division would not be long.

If I were to plan such an invasion I would look to land the initial forces to the west of Gibraltar with the view to opening it as a port (small though it may be). This would be followed by a march north to try to capture Cadiz and establish a line from there to Malaga.

With only 12 divisions (give or take one or two) I think I would avoid violating Vichy neutrality at all and instead occupy Spanish Morocco. Pushing north through Spain in the winter would probably be a major headache and it may be worthwhile to use the time to try to wear out the Spanish and bring Portugal into the alliance. With Lisbon and Porto as supply ports all reinforcements for the campaign could be used to stretch the German-Spanish front and hope to cause the collapse of the Spanish army. Events in Russia would probably preclude any large scale reinforcement (other than the initial troops sent in November) of the Spanish theatre until, or if, the Russian front is stabilized.

Overall, I fear this campaign would be a major strategic distraction that would not speed an allied victory, quite the contrary. Such an attck would probaly be welcomed by the Britich CIGS as the Brits always liked the indirect approach and this would have forced the allies into a Med Front policy. It would be very interesting to see the effect of the entire weight of the allied forces applied to Spain and the western Med.

Instead of a drive through France we might have seen a drive up through Spain linked with landings in southern France, Italy and maybe the Adriatic shore. Winston would have approved heartily. Normandy/Calais might have been a secondary landing to support the main drive north from Gascony and Provence. Since the Germans could not simply ignore the French coast a large number of divisions would still have been tied down watching for an invasion until it was too late.

Of course,...The Germans may have stabilized the Russian front in the winter, scrubbed the Kursk Offensive, sent the troops west and crushed the allies in Spain. Major disaster, Russia occupies Germany and almost all of central Europe. Strategic defeat for the west.

Hmmmmmmm,....